Do you think Clem's group will blame her for...?
Regardless of her decision to take the pills or not, do you think Clem's group will blame her for bringing the Russians on them at the end of "Amid the Ruins"? The fact that Arvo brought his armed group back to rob them was a consequence of Clem's and Jane's actions, causing definite injury and probable death. Instead of letting him go, Clem and Jane could've tied him up and brought him back to the group, shot him, or something else. This could've prevented the deadly shootout later. Regardless of whether we took the pills from Arvo or not, Arvo claims we stole from him (maybe referring to his gun or something else). I, like a lot of people think that Kenny, Luke, the baby, Clem, and either Mike or Bonnie will survive, though they'll probably be injured to varying degrees. After they get away and things cool down, I think this'll be what happens:
- Kenny will probably be angry at Clem for putting the baby in danger. He might even be angry at her for not executing Arvo when they first found him. Before the gunfight when Kenny says, "Clementine, you robbed this guy?" I'm not sure if Kenny is angry at her or just shocked.
- Mike or Bonnie--At first I thought they would be the peacekeepers, and they would try not to blame Clem. But if there really is something going on between Bonnie and Mike and one of them dies, I think the survivor won't be too happy with Clem. They might not blame her, but I'm not sure they'd protect her from blame from the others, either.
- Luke...is a tough one. He and Clem got along better in ep 2, but it's been a while since then. Luke's perception of Clem is changing. If you left Sarah to die in the trailer, he says, "About Sarah...I, uh...I didn't think you'd leave her. It's hard to think about..." If Clem watched Carver die Luke confronts her about it by saying: "I used to think that all the horror hadn't gotten to you yet. But you watched your friend murder Carver. Not just kill but...Clem, you didn't even blink." Finally, if you stole the meds from Arvo, Luke can't believe it: "What?! You robbed him? Seriously? You STOLE meds from somebody?" "Sometimes you have to do bad things if you want to survive."..."I guess Jane's really rubbed off on you." Luke may have thought of Clem as a little sister-figure before, but I think that image is breaking if you made those decisions.
Also, the only way we've seen Luke deal with stress so far is his fun-times with Jane. Before, he never showed his emotions really. But I think talking with Jane etc. left him opening up his bottled emotions, and now I don't think he can put the cap back on. Did you notice how Luke got steadily more aggressive towards Kenny the rest of the episode, as if Luke was just letting his anger flow freely? Maybe when arguing with Kenny, Luke may accidentally lash out at Clem as well.
- The baby will be soooo pissed, omg. Lol jk. The way this is going, I can see Clem wanting to spend more time with the baby, as he'll be the only person not judging her.
From all this, I feel like we'd be getting even more reasons for Clem to go off on her own....
What do you guys think?
Comments
No the Russians were going to take the groups stuff regardless of your decision to steal
Honestly, i don't think Kenny will be angry at her for shooting Rebecca. First of all, he would shoot Rebecca himself, if you asked him for help. And second and most importantly, the baby is all Kenny cares about at the moment (well...except Clementine obviously).
Luke on the other hand will probably be mad at her, for shooting Rebecca.
I agree with you about Kenny.
For Luke, Rebecca was the last of the cabin group that he knew (unless you count Bonnie), so he may indeed be upset that Rebecca had been shot, no matter who shot her. But she had already died, so I doubt he'd be mad at Clem for shooting her zombie and protecting the baby. I was wondering more what you thought about the fact that Clem had instigated the fight by bringing Arvo and the others to them in the first place, since neither she nor Jane had tied up Arvo or executed him or whatever.
As long as their is a (Sad eyes) option she'll be fine
I think at the end of the finale episode, it'll be Clementine and the baby mostly. I'm hoping Christa makes a return otherwise there was no point her being in the season, because I wanted the option to give the baby into Christa's care, since she most probably missed out on that experience.
I think it will be more like if you stick to Kenny, Luke will blame you and Kenny will defend you, and vice versa.
I can see Kenny being angry, because he reacts surprised when Arvo claims you robbed him... but he can't really be one to talk since if you remember season 1 and the station wagon... But you're probably right in saying he'll be mad about putting the baby in danger, or since he can be the one to shoot Rebecca, he might not say anything since you were protecting the baby. And even then the pills were for Rebecca and the baby, and he seems very happy if you did rob and give them to her, so he'll probably think robbing him was justified.
Luke can determinately know you ran into Arvo and if you robbed him or not, so I don't see him being mad about it. He may get mad about you shooting Rebecca, since that's how I felt when I shot her before realizing what I was doing, but I'm sure he'd understand that she turned, and I think his "NO!" was most likely because he knew a gunshot of any kind would start a shoot off.
Bonnie and Mike... I don't see them blaming Clem for anything really, and honestly I feel like one or both of them will be dead so it won't matter much.
So in short, no, I don't think the group will be mad at Clem since they all knew the Russians were going to shoot them eventually, and it's more on Jane if anything, since she's brought up either way. Plus I think the group would have bigger things to worry about after the shootout.
The moment I saw them this was exactly what I thought. It was like the stealing from the car choice from S1, it didn't matter in the end. It was just there to test your morality.
Actually, he was kind of reluctant about the pills: "Wait a minute, should a pregnant lady be taking that?" Though you're right; he'll probably think robbing them for Rebecca was justified. But will he feel the same way when most of their group is injured and barely crawling?
Why would Luke not be mad about Clem and Jane robbing Arvo? If he had known before, he might not react as much, but that doesn't mean he's not mad.
A lot of people think there might be something romantic going on between Bonnie and Mike. If one of them dies, then the other will probably not be too happy with Clem. (I wrote this above....)
Even if the group has bigger things to worry about, they're still arguing every step of the way. The tension building up between them is part of the plot, too: "The group is cracking, Clem. Don't let them bring you down with them." The group could fall apart from all the arguing. Luke and Kenny will be looking for targets for their anger, and since Jane isn't there (you said it's more on Jane than anything) but Clem is, I bet they're gonna be looking at her.
Yes, because they are all fucking dumb (sorry, Kenny, you too). What a group of retards. They would even blame Clem if the Russians had started shooting, because they don't see they only still live because of her.
They are sheep, almost begging the big bad wolf (sorry Bigby, I know they probably taste aweful) to eat them. Clem is the shepard.
The shepard doesn't expect the sheep to thank him, because they are too stupid to realize the shepard saves their worthless asses all day.
If everyone turn on her, she will probably be pretty fucked up
If you steal the meds you can just say you were concerned about the group so they probably won't be as mad at you.
If you don't steal the meds they have no right to be mad at you.
** facepalm ** I know. I'm not asking if they'll be mad at you if you took the pills or not. I'm asking if, regardless of your choice, Clem's group will blame her for bringing another armed group down on them to shoot them to pieces.
Damn if you do, damn if you don't :-(
Lol hopefully. But Clem isn't so small anymore (remember when she got stuck in the ticket window if you volunteer to go in?) and she may be losing her youthful charm. She's not the youngest member of the group anymore either. The others will protect her, sure, but they also know she's more capable and she could probably take care of herself on her own if she needed to, and that she's capable of vicious decisions (watching Carver die?). The baby on the other hand is defenseless. If there were two sides to an argument of protecting Clem vs. the baby, I'd say the baby has the advantage. Wouldn't you?
The group might be a little angry but more so if you actually stole from him.
I think the group might be angrier at you or Kenny (determinant) for causing the shoot-out by shooting Rebecca.
Maybe both? I'm pretty sure there will be an argument about it when they escape the shooting.
Oh sorry, I forgot Kenny said that since I only saw what happens if you steal once, but Rebecca was pretty happy about it... and Kenny's priorities are obviously on the baby, so as long as the baby is fine after the shootout, I think Kenny will be fine.
He didn't approve of it, but he wasn't mad at Clem if you told him and did rob Arvo, he seemed more disappointed if anything, so I doubt he'll lash out at Clem for it since he probably knows Jane was the one that did most of the robbing, and even says Jane is rubbing off on Clem like you said, so he knows it was mainly Jane's doing, especially how close he was to Jane this episode. So he probably knows Arvo's full of garbage in saying Clem was the one that robbed him, and will blame him more than Clem for the shootout.
And that's all speculation at this point (yes I read it originally...), nothing is confirmed, and even then all of it is based on a few dialogues from Mike only, and not Bonnie, so even if Mike does like Bonnie, it doesn't mean Bonnie likes Mike. So if Mike dies, it doesn't mean Bonnie will be mad that her boyfriend or potential boyfriend died or whatever, and vice versa. Plus do you honestly expect either of them to be mad at a kid? Especially given their interactions with her, they both understand Clem is a kid, a tough one, but still a kid. What kind of responsible adult blames a kid for something they obviously had no idea would happen?
And the arguments are mainly just between Kenny and Luke fighting over leadership, and they're obviously not going to target their anger at Clem, they're going to target it at each other. The whole idea behind it so far is Clem choosing a side, and the side she doesn't choose is the one that will be angry at her for that, not for her other decisions. And they can still blame Jane even if she isn't there, why waste time and energy blaming a current group member? Luke and Kenny aren't that stupid. If anything I see Kenny blaming Jane for what happened, and then Luke trying to defend her, and then Clem has to choose a side... and ugh, it annoys me just thinking about it.
My point is the Russians were going to kill the group and take their things. Will they blame Clem, Kenny might for putting the baby in danger but as for Bonnie and Mike I doubt it they seem to be understanding and protective of Clem.
Yup, agree about Kenny's priorities being on the baby.
You're right; Luke did sound more disappointed in Clem than mad. Now that I think about it, Jane was pretty upset after Arvo left (she looked like she was wiping her eyes), and then she met up with Luke. So Luke must know Jane's sorry about holding up Arvo. So I don't think Luke's likely to be mad at either of them. Honestly I'm rooting for Luke to not lash out at Clem and I hope he doesn't lash out at her. I love their brother-sister relationship, but you can't deny that it's been shaky lately. I'm just pointing out that I think it's possible Luke could be getting angrier, especially after Jane left.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post; I just assumed you had skipped over it because you didn't comment on the Bike relationship in your otherwise thorough reply, but my apologies for that. Yeah I actually didn't see the Bike thing going on too much personally, but only after some people pointed it out. And I didn't realize only Mike was the one with supposed feelings; I haven't read too many of the shipping threads in general. I don't expect Mike to blame Clem. But in the OP I said if he survived and not Bonnie, Mike (let's just stick with Mike and not Bonnie for now) probably wouldn't blame Clem; I think he would just be silent during this argument, not defending her either. Mike knows she's a tough kid. He's also only known her for about one day. He's a great character as we've seen. But I can't help thinking that it could be similar to a Christa-Omid situation from the beginning of "In Harm's Way" (I know Bonnie and Mike aren't in a relationship, but it's the closest comparison I can think of) where Christa is lukewarm towards Clem at best after Omid's death.
They've already started getting angry at Clem. Luke gets angry at Clem for not supporting his decision to stay a few days, and the same with Kenny if you side with him.
Yes, they can blame Jane too. But the sad fact is that tensions are high, and people might be bleeding to death, for goodness' sake. They're not going to be rational at a time like this. Kenny's already blamed Clem before (det, but in most peoples' playthroughs) for getting Sarita killed.
In the words of Luke: "She's a valuable little girl." Luke and Kenny both know she's capable. Kenny says something like, "I've seen you take better care of yourself than three of those adults put together." If she's that capable, then she's capable of taking on responsibilities, and the consequences of her actions as well.
Thank you for the discussion; you bring up good points.