Why episode 4 is better than you thought it was!
Sorry for the condescending topic title I just wanted your attention. Hi.
I have noticed that some people in this community (a few, but a very loud few) have said that the writing for season 2 or specifically episode 4 has been poor, sloppy, or lazy. I am going to argue that is not the case, I believe that Telltale told episode 4 the best way they could as reasonably as possible without it being confusing. The main points that some complaints stem from are how they handled Nick and Sarah's death, the reaction from Clem's group about their deaths, and how Clementine has become so physically strong.
First I want to start with Nick, how he died and the reaction from that death. People seem to forget that Nick was shot first at Carvers and then bit by a zombie at the trailer park. The zombie bite evidence is shown on the "details that have gone unnoticed" topic on this website. Now Clementine was not around when Nick actually died, but Telltale wrote his death in a way that anyone could figure out what happened. You see Nick was following Luke who was chasing after Sarah, then got shot. Sarah shut down in a trailer at the trailer park, refusing to move due to her shock from Carlos's death. Luke whom has stated several times that he was in no condition to move her or help escape and Nick who was shot and obviously bleeding from the wound were in a really bad situation. People keep forgetting that blood attracts zombies in TWD, so Nick was only making things worse there attracting more walkers. Luke either gave the order or Nick volunteered for this suicide mission to find help. Now this may be hard to read, but I think Luke knew Nick was going to die and soon him and Sarah were next. This is pretty evident when Clem first finds him and talks about how he thought walkers were gonna bust through at any moment. Nick tried and failed to find help as he was bitten by a walker on the way and only made it to an opening at a gate.
Luke's reaction to Nicks' death was saying depressingly "fuck, fuck" this could mean that what Clem and Jane told him confirmed what he already knew. Maybe he did have hope that Nick was the one who found them when they first showed up, but that's not what happened. Luke could have had more of a reaction to Nick's death, but they were under attack from a mob of zombies if you hadn't noticed. Later meeting up with everyone Luke continues to say he would not have made it out without Clem and Jane, confirming that he thought everyone was going to die without help. Now the only other person in the group that has a connection with Nick is Rebecca and we all see that she is upset when hearing the news from Luke(yes I know she reacts the same way if you did not save Nick in episode 2 then Sarah dies, but what can you do). Luke and Rebecca possibly could have mourned over Nick while you(Clem) were dealing with Kenny's situation. Everyone else in the group probably did not care enough about Nick to feel anything after he died, how could they Mike and Jane didn't know him, Bonnie didn't seem too friendly with him, and Sarah was still upset over her dad. Clementine at least got to say her goodbye's to Nick, but you(Clem) had to have figured that Nick was not going to make after he was shot. Clementine has witnessed so much sudden death that she has probably learned to accept it as part of the deal for staying alive. So her reaction was reasonable to Nick's death and she's learned to deal with it and just move on.
Now why not have Luke react in a more dramatic way later in the game? Why couldn't Telltale write a heroic death for Nick? these are not the questions you should be asking. You should ask why kill Nick and Sarah in the first place? Telltale is trying to make a point in this game, death happens quick and sudden in the zombie apocalypse and sometimes you can't save everyone no matter how hard you try. You(Clem) have to be prepared for it when the time comes to do what is necessary is what Jane's point is throughout the entire time you spend with her. They use Nick and Sarah's death to prove that point.
My points for Nick could also be said about Sarah, death happens and Clem's group just did not care enough about Sarah. It's all about survival in TWD and there was absolutely no time to mourn over her death after the deck collapsed since you know... zombie attack. Sarah could die at the trailer park and Luke will give you shit about it, since yes it was YOU who decided to leave her. Sarah obviously was not listening to Luke and no way she would listen to Jane, plus Jane already made up her mind about Sarah due to her history with her sister. Rebecca mourns over Sarah, but I think just like Nick that nobody else cared enough about Sarah to cry over her. Now after the deck scene where Sarah is dead as well, the same reasons apply, but this time Rebecca only cared about her baby nothing else. Luke had to have known that Sarah checked out and was not willing to try, he is clearly getting more agitated as the episode goes on, so we do not see him mourn over Sarah, but you can tell that all this shit is getting to him. As previously stated above Clementine's reaction would be to just deal with it and move on. I know people wanted more from both of their deaths, but I believe Telltale wanted you to feel robbed and upset just like it would in real life. This is no different from trying to save Larry or finding a way to stop Lilly from killing Carley/Doug, it just happens and aint nothing you an do to stop it, but now that we played this game for so long we/you (Clem) is starting to get use to it.
The last thing I wanted to discuss is how Clem seems so damn physically strong in this game specifically the part where she kicks the door open at the trailer park. It's pretty self explanatory how, but I will try and make it clearer. First Clem has to be physically strong as she is a kid surviving over 2 years in the zombie apocalypse, always running, always fighting both human and zombies it's a no brainer on that end. Second the doors to trailers are not strong at all, way weaker than a regular door those things are made cheap on purpose you know. Thirdly a horde of zombies were beating the crap out of it before and after she showed up. A few good adrenalin kicks and anyone would be able to do it.
Hopefully you enjoyed this read or maybe I just confirmed what you already know, but before I end this I should say that this is all in my opinion and not stating it as fact like most people would.
Comments
So....Much....Writing....
I dont know what it is but episode 4 was my favourate epiaode!
Firstly, I would like to state categorically that I do not begrudge you your opinion and that I don't necessarily think that you are "wrong" for thinking of Episode 4 as well-written, good quality or meaningful. It would be wrong of me to do anything of the sort and I recognise that this matter is mostly subjective.
However, I feel that I have to respond to the idea that Episode 4 was "better than I thought it was" (I understand that the title was just to grab attention, but that's essentially the gist of the OP as well; that people who didn't like the episode have analysed its elements incorrectly) with wholehearted disagreement.
I don't really want to talk about Clementine's super-strength or what have you because it really didn't seem like a big deal at the time and it doesn't now, to me at any rate. However, I personally think that people are giving Telltale far too much credit with the whole "profound message of futility and the abrupt, unsatisfying nature of death" shtick. At the end of the day, I think that many of the decisions made in Episode 4 concerning the storyline were mainly about conservation; Nick was killed off in such a way as to avoid having to use his voice actor or to animate him more than they could get away with, Sarah dies no matter what because Telltale didn't want the hassle of including her in the next episode and had run out of ideas for both her and Nick's character progression, and no-one really reacts to either death because of Telltale didn't want to focus upon THEM in addition to the baby situation or Kenny's depression. Again, it's all a matter of perspective, but mine is that "laziness" and not "philosophy" was the impetus behind the writing of this episode.
Regarding Nick, all I'll say is that if people have to go into so much depth speculating about what MIGHT have happened to him and why, then telltale didn't do a very good job in the episode itself. I think that the shoulder wound in fleeing Carver's compound was simply a convenient means of permitting the lazy, slap-dash scene later on where Nick is found dead on a fence in place of a generic walker model; he bleeds, he dies. That way, they didn't have to rope in his voice actor and didn't have to spend any more time on him than necessary, just kill him off as quickly as possible and move on. I think the fact that Jane doesn't even think to pick his pockets as she did for the other fresh walkers just five minutes previously shows how lazily-written the scene was; Telltale simply didn't want him around any longer and killed him off. And it didn't need to be a heroic death, but considering what an important character Nick was in previous episodes, and how much potential he had, I think it fairly wasteful of Telltale to kill him off so abruptly, without any lines of dialogue prior, no matter what your stance on the whole "futility" front. It wasn't good storytelling, which is all that matters to me. Neither Carley or Ben received heroic deaths in Season 1, but they were both well-executed and signalled a satisfying end to their respective story arcs. There are a hundred-and-one ways that Telltale could have killed Nick off in a way that was both fitting and suggestive of a theme of futility. The one received was just careless.
As for Sarah, while her first death was perhaps fitting as a consequence of a choice (Clementine decides that she is useless and leaves her), the alternative for many of us was an insultingly-ludicrous scenario by which a decking collapses on top of her, she gets eaten and nobody responds with more than a few seconds of surprise. Rebecca, who actually DID appear to care about Sarah previously, as did Luke, having been with her a long time, never comment on her death. And they absolutely DID have time once the decking is dropped entirely to grieve; instead all focus is placed upon the baby and Jane's departure because those are the story arcs that Telltale want you to focus on now not Sarah she's gone so deal with it. I maintain that this "calm in between storms" where they were up in the gift shop would have been a perfect time to mourn Nick and Sarah. No-one does. And I don't care about "desensitisation" or "the new world order"; MY Clementine is not a heartless fatalist, and nor do I think it's good storytelling to drop characters with lots of story potential (what was the point in being Sarah's friend, Carlos dying or promising to teach her to shoot and look after herself if it all comes to nothing?) simply to conserve time, or to introduce a theme of futility. I don't care about realism; I want a good narrative, and I don't feel that Episode 4 delivered on that front.
Again, I realise that different people have different opinions in this regard but I would ask anyone who insists that those complaining simply "don't understand the writer's intentions" or that "you clearly haven't considered this..." not to be so condescending. It's simply my opinion, and the opinion of others (who I don't believe are in such a significant minority as you might think, though I will agree that they are vocal) that Episode 4 failed on numerous fronts. And I don't think it was a complete waste of an episode; the scenery was beautiful, the choices difficult, Rebecca's death the right KIND of shocking and the visuals and audio a significant step up from anything in Season 1. It's just that, to me, the content of the STORYTELLING (the main reason I play this series) was lacking here, incoherent at times and insultingly ill-thought out at others. If Telltale want to use "realism" as an excuse to drop interesting characters, story arcs and narrative potential whenever they feel like it and not have it remarked upon then I disagree with them. Be it Nick and Sarah's appalling demises, the lack of any significant characterisation for Bonnie and Mike other than "I'm still pretty worried about Rebecca you guys" and "sorry again for helping Carver", the use of Sarita simply as a cheap means of developing Kenny or the prevalence of Molly Version 2's rather insultingly-inhumane brand of "fuck 'em, keep moving" stoicism, which APPARENTLY is also now a business model for Telltale concerning its characters and story arcs, I really do not think that Episode 4 was by any means adequate.
It was enjoyable but it could have been so much better.
I mean, what's the point of playing the Walking Dead if nobody feels any emotion anymore? Kirkman even said it himself : *The Walking Dead is not about zombies killing, fighting everything and all, it's all about the psychology of the survivors who now live in a broken world : how they react, how they feel, etc. *
What's the reason season 1 was a success? Because emotion was all over the place! And that's what made the characters real and that's why we were close to them!
Idk whether to upvote or down vote both of you because of the damn essays. Didn't even read one paragraph. Screw it both have a upvote
That's... kind of rude, but thank you.
No it's not. It's the truth.
Sorry, I'm sure both have very good opinions and disagreements, but so.... Much.... Reading... But enough of me ruining shit
Don't ever apologize for being honest, you're not "ruining" anything.
Don't worry; you're not ruining anything, haha. You're not actually obliged to read anything if you don't want to.
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. For what it's worth, "rude" isn't always a bad thing, and I'm not denying that it's "the truth."
It is actually pretty rude. As far as I'm concerned, if you find a post to be too long for your liking just ignore it...plain and simple. Any comments or contemplating whether or not to like/dislike it on the premise that it's too much to read is completely unnecessary. It's even worse when some people use that stupid gif in response to a long and detailed comment in which the poster put some thought in it.
I can also understand @jamex1223. It's not like I always read a long post, and I did have my share of "TLDR" moments....call it a friendly advice more than anything.
Yeah don't worry about it I just thought it would be nice to express my opinion about how Telltale handled this episode.
All I can write is what I think I know what Telltale intended. I don't know if they just did not want to bother with Sarah and Nick anymore and their VAs. It's possible they wanted to end their stories in this episode so they can focus on other problems Clem has to deal with, but if it's to a point where Telltale did not want to spend more money on animation and voice acting seems like it would be out of the writers hands and they only tried to make it work as best as they could, we just don't know that or at the very least me.
Not reading all that but too me episode 4 was the best of the season so far.
And that may very well be the case, but whether it's the writers to blame or the concessions that were placed on them by individuals "higher up" in the development team, I think that it should be Telltale's responsibility to offer the same level of time, effort and quality that we've always come to expect from 'The Walking Dead' episodic content. And, again, I understand that some people are perfectly happy with how Episode 4 turned out but I would hate to think that future episodes also suffered in regards to the storytelling simply because it's become acceptable to drop promising storylines whenever it's deemed convenient.
Now you got me curious. Care to explain why? If you want of course.
in all i liked episode4 i just didn't like at the end if you didn't steal from arvo he says you did and all you can say to defend yourself is jane stole not me that is bad writing cause that means clementine will get blamed for notting
Luke got some action. Duh
I'm fairly sure that in that case Arvo is accusing you of stealing his gun rather than his medicine; I agree that it seems lazy of them to copy and paste the exact same scene and dialogue in both scenarios but I don't personally think that that was the biggest issue with the episode.
I agree my friend, it could have been so much better!
How can you seriously try to justify Clementine kicking down that door. Those reasons you gave are simply laughable. So your telling me a group of zombies "couldn't break through the door, but Clementine can, a 11 year old girl who probably weighs maybe 60 lbs wet can. Sure.
Agree! On this one, I was like : Really guys? That's Clementine, not Bigby!
Clem is associated with Jane when Jane mugs Arvo. No matter what Arvo has his gun stolen from him by Jane. Clearly guns are important in TWD universe, so you can probably guess that Arvo and his group would be mad over something like that. No matter what Arvo accuses Clem and her group that they set up a trap for them when asked where Jane is. Tensions are high and they are paranoid.
It is also possible that Arvo is doing something sneaky behind his group's back. We may find out in the next episode, but he may be using Clem's group as a scapegoat.
I would say that it is out of plot convenience that the zombies did not bust down the door until after Clem and Jane come through, but whose to say that if Clem and Jane didn't get there in time the zombies would have busted through that door eventually. Plus I had other reasons you know...
or how about how No one but Clementine could fix the Wind Generator thing.
or how about how No one but Clementine could fix the Wind Generator thing.
The zombies could'nt break the door because they didnt bash on it. they're touching it though. and the trailer doors are unstable as fuck. theyre 2 years in the ZA. Dont you think that it could rain so the door gets more unstable? one good smack and the shit is open.
LOL reach for the stars and maybe one day you might convince me.
Clem did say her dad was an engineer though.
and that's why i hate selfish fucking theft's
So what?
My dad was a Tank engineer, does that mean i know how to drive a tank?
Clem volunteered to figure out this puzzle no one cared to even look at. Everyone decided to rather just kill zombies, while Clem stuck a key into a big red keyhole and viola so simple even a 11 year old could do it.
Maybe not, But MY dad is special forces, therefore I know everything!
So, basically Sonic_Platypus already said what I had to say, I'll simply summarize it a bit:
That's all just speculation on your part: the fact that we have to come up with theories to get some sense into the story indicates poor writing, which is exactly what I think episode 4 consisted of.
Not all of it is speculation, most of it is just putting my points together from what the story gave us. I would just hate to take the easy way and say that this game has poor writing instead of just thinking about what actually happened piece by piece in those scenes.
tl;dr
Clementine Kicking down a door!
I think what you're trying to say is the fact that we have to painfully justify any stupid moments in stories is what indicates poor writing.
The way how you said it made it sound like you don't like being challenged when it comes to stories.
I'm sorry but I must disagree: I even re-read everything you've written, but I can't find ONE thing that isn't an assumption with no concrete evidence. The way I see it, all your statements are debatable. I'm just saying that the way you've interpreted the story is yet another one of many ways, NONE of which are official.
As I said:
My own opinion is that it was bad writing, please understand I am not disregarding yours, it's just that I believe many of the complaints regarding episode 4's writing bring up valid arguments.