Feminism
What is your opinion on Feminism? Do you support Feminism? why or why not. In my opinion the new age feminism is getting out of hand.
Now let me just clarify my position before I start. I'm not against the traditional feminists who are after equality, i'm on about the new band of feminists who want dominance over men and the other women they deem to be inferior.
The traditional feminists who would see this as a nice victory and a step towards true equality has been muscled out of the way by a new type of openly man hating and rather aggressive type of feminist as they celebrate this 'victory' in the face of everyone who is willing to listen.
The way this is being celebrated is to try to take over twitter and every television show that will let them on to be loud, aggressive and intimidating to anyone who is too scared to stand up to them.
It's no longer a case of sticking up for women for these people, it's about something a lot more sinister.
Accusations of 'rape' and 'rapist' are thrown around willy nilly (i have no idea how you can rape someone over twitter but hey ho) and other outrageous threats and accusations are leveled at anyone who questions their motives.
I personal feel very intimidated and threatened by these women, yet feel i would be laughed out of town in the real world if i were to mention it to anyone. these women really are very scary individuals though and i'm sure they'd go to any lengths to get their way.
I feel nervous just making this thread but need to make this thread to see if others are equally intimidated.
Comments
I believe men and women should be treated equally. I am male. I do not hate my own gender.
I am a feminist.
Some people think men are better than women.
They are not feminists.
Some people think women are better than men.
They are not feminists.
People here can (and oh so certainly will) complain and say 'omfg civil rights r going 2 farr!!!1one11!' but the unfortunate truth of the matter is that feminists - gender egalitarians - are winning. That is to say, no matter what you do, society will keep moving forward.
Lot's of people opposed women getting the vote in 1920s, nowadays opposing that would be laughable. Lots of people opposed the 60s civil rights movement. Nowadays saying black people should sit in different parts of a bus would be laughable. Today lots of people are opposing equal rights for gay people. IN 50 years saying gay people shouldn't be able to marry each other will be seen as ridiculous as saying black people shouldn't be allowed to marry white people, or saying that you should only be able to marry if you're religious. Lots of people are opposing new attitudes to consent and rape. And in 100 years, opposing these will seem silly.
There are always fundies and conservative-minded people putting the brakes on progress. Unfortunately, history is on the side of egalitarians.
The views of that woman do not constitute feminism.
Also, I think it's a bit of a myth that lots of those types of sexists exist. Im sure some do, but hardly any in feminism.
My feminist friend (i.e. basically all my friends) wouldn't consider me to be a sex crazed pig, despite being male.
I'm all for gender equality and feminism. But what annoys me about this are the hardcore feminazis who want gender superiority instead of gender equality.
Where are all these 'new age feminists seeking female domination?' Where are all these feminists who want 'gender superiority' I keep hearing about them, but I haven't seen any of them, save perhaps people here and there on the internet.
It seems to me that most of this accusation of radicalism in feminism is usually people who don't listen to the feminists themselves, but instead hear that have been reduced and twisted to the point of being ridiculous. And saying 'I find this objectionable' is not the same as saying 'I think you should be legally banned from doing/saying/making this.'
Yes, I am a feminist, and it's only 'one' of the things I am, along with being an agnostic, a liberal, etc.
Believe me Sarang, these "new age feminists seeking female domination" exist. They're out there.
Feminazis
Internet Feminazis
Somewhere I heard that the Internet calls new age feminists 'feminazis'
I try to avoid this kinda stuff. It's really irratating to me hearing about all this crap when people are starving and wars are being fought.
I was referring to hearing about feminism in general, I personally think there are more important issues out there that outweighs feminism.
I think radical feminist is more irratating to hear by the way, because they aren't really feminists anymore.
Is it irritating to hear about the word Feminazi or the radical feminists?
I'm all for Feminsism...When it's needed like in the Middle East or India or China...Not America.
Most Feminists in America are Feminazis...There are ones who want equal representation in income but other than that it isn't a big deal in America.
Well, this is gonna be a shit-storm.
We definitely need more gender equity across the world. Feminism is one way for us to question the stupid shit that traditional gender roles require both men and women to do.
I was referring to feminism in general . I think there's more pressing matters at hand.
In America, I agree.
Every ideological group has its fringes, Feminists are no different. Extreme misandrist "feminazis" represent the feminist movement as much as the Westboro Baptist Church represents Christianity. In that "technically, yes, but come on, we all know those fuckers are crazy" kind of way.
That being said, even more sane, mainstream forms of feminism that place gender equality as their primary goal have aspects that I don't really agree with. "Gender equality" means different things to different people and there are different approaches to achieving it. Things aren't as simple as "treat everyone the same." Men and women aren't identical and trying to treat them as if they were (or "should be") creates problems. We should ensure that women have all the rights and opportunities that men have and we should encourage them to make use of those rights and opportunities. But if, when given the same opportunities to work, more women want to be stay-at-home moms than men want to be stay-at-home dads, then that's fine. We shouldn't see that as an inherent problem or as a "symptom of the patriarchy" or whatever.
But yeah, at the end of the day, I still consider myself a feminist.
I support Feminsism...so I guess that makes me a Feminist? I think women and men should be equal to each other. For example I think Men can paint there nails if they want to and women can work out to get muscles if they want to. But I agree with "The new age feminism". They are starting to get mad over little things. I was twitter the other day and I keep seeing tweets from girls in my school that got angry because they got dress code at school. The dress code at school to me is fair but they overreacted and they were mostly kinda dress like this:
(https://mobile.twitter.com/miilkkk/status/507722087113695232/photos
Also I think think they are getting out of hand I mean look at this:
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I think men and women should be absolutely treated equally. However I often disagree with the feminazi views akin to "every man is a rapist".
I support equal rights for men and women, but I don't support feminism (the extreme sort).
There's a difference between equalness (like any person should strive to achieve) and feminism (that seeks for a higher role for women than men, again, the extreme sort).
If you mean equal rights with feminism (which you probably do), then yes. I definitley support it.
Or all men should kill themselves.
I'm all for equal rights, but the feminist I've met are trying to be gender dominant.
Edit: To explain, not all feminist are like this, just the ones I've met.
Feminism today isn't actual Feminism anymore. It was necessary years ago, we couldn't vote, we couldn't support ourselves without a marriage, we weren't allowed in certain areas of the work force, if you were barren you were of less value etc. These were truths then, but real Feminism helped combat it, and now we have just as many privileges/rights as men, I'd argue even more than men in some areas. Feminism nowadays arises from greed, vanity, narcissism, and one hell of a victim complex. Feminists like to refer back to the test book definition of Feminism, (as though they think definition isn't describing first wave Feminism, and that the definition somehow excuses their disgusting behavior) they say it's about "gender equality", but that is nothing but a ruse. What these new feminists want is to be above men, they want gender superiority. The screams of "patriarchy", "kill all men", "castrate men", "I hate men", and several other illogical and violent sayings is enough proof. Women aren't more "oppressed" than men, and don't deserve any special treatment.
Both men and women are victims to rape, and both men and women are capable of rape. It has nothing to do with "rape culture", it is just the reality of there being sick and twisted people in the world we live in. If you're smart, and want to protect yourself from a possible rape, there are many options: learn to use/purchase a gun, get a stun gun/pepper spray, learn self defense, be extra cautious as any smart individual with common sense would be in a bar or in an unfamiliar place, stay close with your friends at parties, don't get shitfaced to the point that you blackout in public places, try not to go anywhere alone, especially at night. Teaching men not to rape is probably the most ineffective and stupid solution I have ever heard. Feminists seem to think that this method will be the equivalent to Dora saying "Swiper no swiping!" 3 times, and then Swiper goes "aww man!" for he is thwarted again by the impenetrable shield these magical words create. Now back in reality, no amount of "teaching men not to rape" is ever going to stop a rapist in their tracks, all this is actually doing is putting more men and women in danger of being raped.
Another so called injustice is the wage gap myth. How many times does it need to be said until Feminists understand, there is no fucking wage gap, this was disproved years ago. I'm not even going to disprove it here, because anyone with a computer can type it in and there are several valid sources that immediately debunk it. Here's a hint for those who are too lazy to look, men and women tend to be interested in different career fields, there are some that attract more men, and some that attract more women. There are rarely career fields that attract an equal number of both genders. One must also take into account the conditions that come with the job which determines the wage. For example, clearly the working conditions for a miner are going to be more dangerous than the working conditions for careers in the office. Allow that to ruminate, and then research it if you'd like to learn more. Anyways, the point is that Feminists refuse to acknowledge this, for if they did, it would be one more logical reason as to why their movement is outdated and unnecessary.
edit: You know what, no, I changed my mind, here are some links that disprove the wage gap myth.
link 1
link 2
link 3
link 4
link 5
video
video
I could go on for days about how ridiculous and embarrassing modern Feminism is, and this is coming from a woman. But I think it's pretty damn obvious why, and the examples I've presented merely scratch the surface of this detrimental movement. You know who actually needs Feminism? The women being stoned to death for getting pregnant out of wedlock, even when that pregnancy is a result of rape, the women having acid thrown on their faces, the women who are forced to wear outfits that cover every single inch of skin 24/7, the girls who are forced into marriages as young as 9 with men old enough to be their father, who often die after being raped violently because their bodies are too young and premature to handle the ramifications of intercourse, the women who aren't even allowed to get an education, and are subject to abuse/rape/murder if they even try to get an education, the women who can't divorce their violent husbands, because it is justified for them to be killed/stoned to death if they try to leave. The list goes on and on. Those are the women who are actually being oppressed, those are the women who actually need Feminism. Not first world whiny brats who actually believe following dress code, or a few catcalls here and there is the equivalent to oppression. Anyone who thinks Feminism is seriously needed in America needs to get the hell over themselves.
Thank you Tinni, a great voice of reason!
I think Feminism is needed in India, China, and the Middle East but in America?
No, in America it is just Feminazis.
My thoughts exactly.
I'm really tired so I didn't' read all of it, but I do agree.
Holy shit I didn't noticed this the first time reading:
I bursted out laughing.
Finally someone agrees
While it's true that a lot of the legal and economic barriers keeping women from achieving equality have been largely mitigated in the western world, a lot of the social ones still exist and are quite prevalent. Women still face sexual inequality through the practices of slut-shaming, victim blaming, and female sexual objectification; political inequality due to the lack of representation for women in the political sphere; and occupational inequality due to the social stigma against ambitious or career-minded women.
Are these issues as pressing as women in Pakistan being stoned to death over perceived honor violations? Certainly not (although victim-blaming/slut-shaming can lead to some pretty fucked up stuff as we saw in some of the reactions to the Steubenville case). And some of these trends will likely change on their own over the generations (more young women are getting into political game nowadays, for instance). But it doesn't hurt to keep vigilant of some of these things and encourage social change (so long as they're not too pushy about it). If a movement instantly disbands the moment it gets most of what it wants, it risks a relapse in the progress it's achieved and won't able to provide support for movements in other areas of the world.
lol I'm glad you liked it, I thought it was funny, though I may have been a bit too snarky.
By slut shaming do you mean calling a girl who sleeps around frequently or dresses like a streetwalker, a slut? I don't like labels, but if you act/dress like a tramp, and have sex with multiple people like it's nothing, then you're being a slut. I'm not about to glorify or encourage sleeping around, saying it's ok to have sex with whoever you want and as many people as you want just because it apparently hurts their feelings when someone calls them out on their behavior. Because it's not acceptable to act in such a fashion, and frankly, it's disgusting for both genders to do so imo.
As for objectification, it happens to men just as much as it does to women. For every picture of a scantily clad woman, or group of men drooling over a "sexy" famous woman and her curves, there are just as many pictures of shirtless men, and groups of girls drooling over a "sexy" famous man and his muscles. Girls get catcalls, and so do guys. Both men and women objectify each other sexually, it's not exclusive to women. Plenty of women have been in high powered political positions, such as Hilary Clinton, Kathleen Sebelius, Janet Napolitano, Michelle Bachmann, Mary Schapiro, Nancy Pelosi etc. Nobody is keeping women from being in positions of power. If a woman isn't elected to a high powered position, there's an extremely high chance it had nothing do do with her gender, but the policies she stood for, among many other valid and rational reasons.
What I think of feminism is that it is so there is equality, no one saying that "A woman can 't do that" and doesn 't mean that it is against men. I respect almost all men as equals (I say amost cause I know some assholes who don 't deserve any type of respect) cause that is what they are to me. Sure, I have had some opinions that where false in the past but they change all the time, and I bet that everyone has been in a similar situation. At any rate I support the idea I have of feminism even though it might be incorect.
puts hat on and walks out so she won 't bother you anymore
So I guess Barack Obama being president means racism is over? To give you one example with Hillary, remember when they shot Bin Laden and everybody was going off about how she may have had her hand over her mouth during the video? Do you really think that would have happened if she were a man?
While I understand you and I have very different opinions on sexuality, let's not pretend that 'slut shaming' isn't a double standard; it is something which happens to women and not to men. If you personally think it's disgusting when men do it, then I'll disagree with you, but at least acknowledge you're being consistent. But on the whole, the way most people actually react (I emphasize react become most people, if you ask them will say it's equally acceptable/unacceptable, but their actions don't follow suit) when a man is permiscuous versus when a woman is a huge double standard. Objectification goes into the same issue (because it's often an expression of sexual interest); sure, there are men objectified in ads, but let's not pretend it's at the same rate as women and that women are encouraged/discouraged in expressing/repressing their sexuality in the same way men are.
Why are you bringing racism into this? We aren't talking about race, we're talking about feminism. But I'll bite. No matter how much it is frowned upon, or how wrong it is, there will always be racism and sexism. No amount of radical movements are going to eliminate either, and in Feminism's case, it is only perpetuating sexism by making women out to be selfish, inconsiderate, irrationally angry women who act like bitches when they aren't treated like the goddesses they think they are. They are making women look bad, just as the Black Panthers make African Americans look bad.
Maybe among immature boys it is a feat to get laid as much as possible, but I believe universally it is looked down upon to jump from bed to bed, whether you're a woman or a man. Men and women are different, and there are different expectations for both. just as women are discouraged to be sexual deviants(which how is this bad? No self respecting girl wants to act like a slut or be one for that matter), men are discouraged to be extremely open about their feelings, cry, or do anything that could be considered girly. It's a two way street, both men and women have their advantages, and both have their disadvantages. But that doesn't mean there should be some ridiculous movement putting one above another, pitting them against one another as if to say "my gender's problems are worse than yours, get down on your knees and grovel for all the problems your gender has caused mine, and give my gender extra privileges and take away rights from your gender while you're at it." It doesn't work like that, and it shouldn't ever be like that.
And honestly, objectification/slut shaming is not that big of a deal compared to what happens in other countries. They're just first world problems. If all I have to deal with is guys catcalling at me, or someone telling me that I have nice tits/some other vulgar compliment, and to be discouraged from dressing too provocatively/engaging in a lot of sex or else I'll be called a slut then that's fine and dandy. All I have to do is brush it off and move on. I'd gladly take that over acid in the face, no opportunity for education, having to wear a burka, and being stoned to death for trying to leave an abusive husband/having sex out of wedlock any day. It could be so much worse for women if we didn't live in America, and these so called problems created by feminists are pretty trivial and petty imo.
I think most of those go into what I was saying about a reductionist viewpoint - I've seen that clip of the woman with red hair a lot, and honestly she's being given a bad rap. Yes, she's extremely rude and abrasive, and she really should be more respectful (and the people interrupting the meeting like that is absolutely unacceptable); but she talks about exactly about a lot of issues that involve men as well, including child custody, false rape allegations - people have somehow equated the poverty of her presentation rather than the povety of her ideas.
And again, even as egregious as the way they behaved, at what point were they arguing for 'female superiority.' Not every rude feminist is immediately Valerie Solanas.
As to the second clip, (and note how Scott refers to this as 'fringe feminism') I know this recently came up again in regards to a tweet Anita Sarkeesian made referring to 'toxic masculinity.' (I'm only talking about the tweet, not about Sarkeesians other statements/behavior). They aren't saying that the mass shootings were caused by misogyny, or men are inherently violent or that our society actively encourages male violence. (there's a reason Sarkeesian said 'masculinity' and not men.) They may be overdoing it, but I think that the gender roles I was referring to ultimately are conducive to violent behavior. It isn't directly advocated for or even condoned, but more an unfortunate byproduct of societal expectations. As to violence, it isn't directly encouraged, but things like being strong, tough, competitive, not to show insecurities and 'man up,' I believe may be very much conducive to violent behavior - which is a boy more likely to be mocked for? Getting into a fist fight or breaking down and crying? In the case of the former it's a slap on the wrist and being called a 'pussy' (thus attacking his masculinity) in the case of the latter. Plus the ability to attract women is often considered one of the core elements of 'being a man;' - not that agree with that position, but that's our society's unfortunate outlook (I agree going after Seth Rogen is nonsense; as to the CNN part, talking about women often being perceived as the prize for accomplisment I think is completey valid. Talking about women as the 'property' of their partners is where he goes off the deepend).
An unrelated some people with OCD have extreme religious obsessions (let's say a Catholic pathologcally and constantly needing to go to confession); to simply say they are mentally ill, while true, doesn't address the manner in which that pathology manifests itself.
Btw, as to The Amazing Atheist, I subscribe to him and think he has some interesting stuff - he's the kind of anti-feminist who I don't have a problem with; while he disagrees with how he thinks feminism has become, he certainly is in favor of gender equality. I may disagree in some instances, but he's arguing in good faith towards a good goal.
If you're interested, one feminist I really like is Martha Nussbaum. I know Sarkeesian has referenced her, but don't let that dissuade you. Sarkeesian completely misinterprets (or rather selects passages willfully ignorant of the totality) Nussbaum, in my opinion. (As does even the Wikipedia article in my opinion - both talk about her analysis of objectification; but what they don't acknowledge is the second half of the chapter where she discusses under what circumstances objectfication may be morally acceptable)
By "slut-shaming," I mean assuming that a woman who wears revealing clothes is automatically someone who sleeps around or that a woman who sleeps around is any less capable of being sexually assaulted or is to be held accountable for the violence that someone else chose to inflict on her. If you personally feel that there's something inherently wrong with sexual promiscuity among both men and women, that's fine as long as you acknowledge that it's merely a personal preference rather than an objective moral truth that has some bearing on matters of sexual assault or harassment. If you read a news story about a woman getting sexually assaulted while passed out at a party and find yourself concerned with what she was wearing or how much she had to drink, there's something wrong with that. No amount of alcohol you consume or skin you show constitutes you "asking" to get raped.
There is male sexual objectification, yes, but definitely not to extent of female sexual objectification. Catcalling for males is certainly not as pervasive a problem as it is for women. That doesn't make it less wrong, of course, it's just that when a problem primarily affects a specific portion of the population, naturally, it's that portion that gets the attention. I actually don't even have a problem with some degree of sexual objectification. When I notice an attractive woman, I don't need to also be thinking about her academic prowess or artistic ability. It's when sexual objectification becomes overvalued or distracts from other, more important qualities that it becomes problematic and as a society, we weigh female physical appearance more heavily than male physical appearance.
Yes, there have been women in political positions, but they're still vastly outnumbered by men. I do think that there are biases, particularly among older voters, that make it difficult for women to get into politics. Stereotypes that women are less effective at leading than men because they aren't as emotionally stable, accusations that women who are very assertive in their speech are "bitchy" or "castrating" (this term was used a lot towards Hilary Clinton during her run), and just general apprehension towards changing up the demographics in politics. Some of these things will probably go away one their own with time and maybe some of these are just the results of actual male and female differences, but I think it is important to make note of the gender disparity here and ask ourselves if there are unfair factors causing it.
I just mentioned race because you mentioned women being in high political positions - being represented in high positions isn't really a valid argument against discrimination. Yes, it means people can, it doesn't mean that the opportunities are equal.
I'm not sure what culture you live in, but I really don't believe the expectations are universal, even among adults. As to the 'sexual deviance' (putting gender aside for a second), that's a whole other topic we have talked about, and I disagree wholeheratedly, but that's another discussion for another day I think.
I agree that it's horrible that men are discouraged from expressing their emotions, or do anything considered girly (believe me, I'll be the first one to say that). I call myself a feminist because I believe in dismantling those gender roles, as I believe they are harmful to both genders (and, I say feminist, both because of the body of literature associated with feminism, and also, because, while I believe both gender roles are harmful, I don't believe they are equally harmful). But what I'm really trying to stress is it's not about who is better than whom, or forcing somebody down on their knees (unless it's consensual; or are you against that too? [sorry, jp]). It's about moving forward as a society.
Also, as far as first world problems go - I agree. Thank God we only have first world problems to deal with. But that doesn't mean they aren't problems, and that doesn't mean that we, in our first world society, should attempt to address them. Yes, we should (and do) denounce much more egregious sexism abroad, but we have far less of a capacity to promote change than we do here. To give an analogy, when talking about whether or not Net Neutrality hurts freedom of speech in a democratic society, how often to people yell "first world problems! why should we worry about the internet when there are starving children in Africa!"?
No, sometimes you have to, it's the truth.
Honestly? I don't really care.
You said you don't see these radical feminists in real life and I showed you wrong. You still some how try and stand up for these people. There is no damn problem in America! This is the first world and women have their rights, they are allowed equal opportunity (If they don't want to take it then it isn't the patriarchy), Men face these same things! Whenever someone points things out wrong here I want to buy them a ticket to Saudi Arabia where they will get STONED for being a woman. Then they might know what a patriarchy really is.
Do you agree with these horrible hashtags?
The thing is, these women are normal but think they're oppressed. That is laughable, just like Sarkeessian is. She is a thief who gets support from people just because she's a feminist. She robbed people blind on a subject she knew nothing about nor cared about.
Definitely not too snarky. I love reading your posts, and the ones that are a bit snarky are just more fun to read.
Why would you? You're already dead-set in your arrogant ways. Which is fine, but don't use a clip of a random crazy lady you found on Youtube and then state that's why you want women to be oppressed. Do some research.
Really? Ok then...
I'll just put this right here again...
...there we go.