ha man we can discuss this shit until the cows come home... i loved it. it was real and it was bold. and it can be interpreted in many ways. but i dont hate it like some people cuz they felt like empty or mad of what you did. not me i just want more. i want a sequel ( but i dont think there is going to be one) and i want the universe to be extended. and btw i am not mad about the way it played out and im not mad at joel, i wouldve done the same fucking thing.
It only works if you stop thinking of Joel as the protagonist though. The game shifts perspective to Ellie for the last 1 minute of gameplay for a reason.
For me Joel is the single biggest villain in the game. He prevents millions of lives from being saved because of selfish reasons.
Yes, saving Ellie is selfish. Ellie would not want him to do what he did, as Marlene knows, and as Joel knows, evidenced by him lying to her.
He saved her because he personally couldn't bear to lose his replacement daughter, dooming millions to death in the process.
I agree with you on that debate honestly however I understand the counteragrument that at this point it was unsure if it would have worked and at this point the world is so messed up a vaccine wouldnt do all that much, its not a cure it would just save the odd person that wasnt instantly killed (Ellie dies by them pretty easily) and the Majoroity of people (including joel and ellie) are straight up killers regardless of cordeceps
Also Joel is more of an anti hero if anything not a straight up villan or protaganist.
oh and I liked the ending, not every ending has to end in a massive way, non endings are pretty good to. Its of anything a (debateably) happy ending which most people didnt predict
I hated it to begin with but grew to love it.
It only works if you stop thinking of Joel as the protagonist though. The game shifts persp… moreective to Ellie for the last 1 minute of gameplay for a reason.
For me Joel is the single biggest villain in the game. He prevents millions of lives from being saved because of selfish reasons.
Yes, saving Ellie is selfish. Ellie would not want him to do what he did, as Marlene knows, and as Joel knows, evidenced by him lying to her.
He saved her because he personally couldn't bear to lose his replacement daughter, dooming millions to death in the process.
If it doesn't work (unlikely considering these are brain surgeons who seem 100% confident they can do it) then one girl dies and nothing changes. If it does work, which is much more likely, then one girl dies and millions of lives are saved. Not taking that minimal chance is ridiculous.
'The world is so messed up a vaccine wouldn't work' is a ridiculous argument. You see people shot in the head for fear they have the disease in the quarantine zone at the start of the game. That shit wouldn't happen. There'd be far less to be afraid of
The point is that if the world is to bee rebuilt, the disease has to be dealt with somehow. You can't just say 'oh the world is shit, there's no point curing the disease that made it shit in the first place'.
I agree with you on that debate honestly however I understand the counteragrument that at this point it was unsure if it would have worked a… morend at this point the world is so messed up a vaccine wouldnt do all that much, its not a cure it would just save the odd person that wasnt instantly killed (Ellie dies by them pretty easily) and the Majoroity of people (including joel and ellie) are straight up killers regardless of cordeceps
Also Joel is more of an anti hero if anything not a straight up villan or protaganist.
oh and I liked the ending, not every ending has to end in a massive way, non endings are pretty good to. Its of anything a (debateably) happy ending which most people didnt predict
It's a missed opportunity is all I'm saying. Imagine how cool it would be to have the option to walk out of the building without Ellie....and without the game ever telling you you could do is. There would be no button prompts, no screen text, nothing. What does this add? Depth, surprise, more bang for your buck, makes you think about the ending, makes you discover stuff about yourself....
But yeah, I guess should be happy with a linear, third persoon rollercoaster movie after all a movie ticket costs me 10 euros while a new AAA game costs me 59.99.... wait....
It's a missed opportunity is all I'm saying. Imagine how cool it would be to have the option to walk out of the building without Ellie....an… mored without the game ever telling you you could do is. There would be no button prompts, no screen text, nothing. What does this add? Depth, surprise, more bang for your buck, makes you think about the ending, makes you discover stuff about yourself....
But yeah, I guess should be happy with a linear, third persoon rollercoaster movie after all a movie ticket costs me 10 euros while a new AAA game costs me 59.99.... wait....
This game has two hours of cutscenes. Possibly more because of how frequently the game takes little breaks and has you do nothing. The gameplay consists out of the stealth and third person cover-based shooter hybrid that every AAA game under the sun wants to be. See also Tomb Raider, Watch dogs, Hitman Absolution and so on.
This game has two hours of cutscenes. Possibly more because of how frequently the game takes little breaks and has you do nothing. The gamep… morelay consists out of the stealth and third person cover-based shooter hybrid that every AAA game under the sun wants to be. See also Tomb Raider, Watch dogs, Hitman Absolution and so on.
Maybe better wording was unlike walking dead etc its not only a story based game there is game play in the last of us (I dont count QTE's and walking in select areas gameplay)
Its also not a choice based game may have been better wording
So Ellie doesnt go running off to find the fireflies again if Joel tells her, in the ending she thinks that they've tried and failed to find a cure so she can rest easy. And not out in the open= Safer
However for me its just Joel covering himself plus I feel Ellie knows he lied in that last "okay". For me Joel was a decent character by the end by how flawed he was unlikeable as a person perhaps but understandable.
Maybe better wording was unlike walking dead etc its not only a story based game there is game play in the last of us (I dont count QTE's and walking in select areas gameplay)
Its also not a choice based game may have been better wording
So Ellie doesnt go running off to find the fireflies again if Joel tells her, in the ending she thinks that they've tried and failed to find… more a cure so she can rest easy. And not out in the open= Safer
However for me its just Joel covering himself plus I feel Ellie knows he lied in that last "okay". For me Joel was a decent character by the end by how flawed he was unlikeable as a person perhaps but understandable.
I'm bothered with the fact that a new IP, a tired third person cover based shooter that doesn't want to take risks, receives so much praise. The story is generic and the gameplay is nothing special. They even go as simplify things for a wider audience. The person were supposed to bond with and protect is essentially a non-element during gameplay. You're going backwards, Naughty Dog. Putting the personality of the characters aside, Resident Evil 4 nailed in 2005 so what's the excuse?
So I must ask, why is it bad if I ask for more player input that doesn't consist out of quicktime events and tired third person-shooting behind cover? If they wanted to make a movie, you should have made a movie and not a game.
And no, I don't hate games that don't allow player choice. I hate games which have the protagonist make a dumb decision without any reason, excuse and more importantly without player involvement. Why am I even here when you don't need me, game?!
I'm curious: do you hate every game that does not allow a player to make decisions?
S you don't like and have never liked Pokemon, Assass… morein's Creed, Tomb Raider, Tetris, Mario Kart, Gears of War, Borderlands etc.?
So like the only companies whose games you can play are Telltale and Bioware?
It would be that if Ellie didn't want to die either.
But the ending is Joel lying to her. That's thus not 'fuck the world let's just be happy' as would be a positive end, but it's 'fuck the world AND my dead girlfriend AND my replacement daughter, I'm all that matters'.
You could argue that she didnt know she was going to die, Ellie was planning her life afterwards so she didnt know they were going to kill her for it; that said I assume Ellie would have consented regardless. Marlene and the other should have waited till she woke up to be sure however I know why they didnt.
It would be that if Ellie didn't want to die either.
But the ending is Joel lying to her. That's thus not 'fuck the world let's just be h… moreappy' as would be a positive end, but it's 'fuck the world AND my dead girlfriend AND my replacement daughter, I'm all that matters'.
You could argue that she didnt know she was going to die, Ellie was planning her life afterwards so she didnt know they were going to kill h… moreer for it; that said I assume Ellie would have consented regardless. Marlene and the other should have waited till she woke up to be sure however I know why they didnt.
As in find more fireflies, there are still a lot out there and if some end up at the community Ellie may attempt to go with them if she thinks there is a chance. Ellie would believe there was no chance at all if they had attempted and failed with a cure.
But you said that if Joel told Ellie the truth she would run off to the fireflies.
That doesn't make sense as by telling her the truth Joel would tell her he murdered all the fireflies.
As in find more fireflies, there are still a lot out there and if some end up at the community Ellie may attempt to go with them if she thin… moreks there is a chance. Ellie would believe there was no chance at all if they had attempted and failed with a cure.
But I don';t understand the difference.
As in, if Joel tells Ellie the truth, she may want to return to them and Joel can go with her.
… more If he doesn't tell her the truth he's still with her. There's no difference between the situations.
The only difference there could possibly be is Joel refusing to help her and knowingly let her risk her life fruitlessly which he wouldn't do.
..the whole point is that she would have consented. It's what the writing tells us.
Marlene: 'It's what she would have wanted!'
Camera focuses on Joel's face as he can't refuse this claim
'...and you know it!'
..no, no, with the lie Ellie WILL risk her life just as much.
Regardless of whether he tells the truth or not, him and Ellie will always end up travelling somewhere together. That's just as much putting your life at risk.
The only difference there could possibly be is Joel refusing to help her and knowingly let her risk her life fruitlessly which he wouldn't do.
Exactly thats the key difference with the lie Ellie wont risk her life which is what Joel wants
There staying at that community with Tommy which Joel believes will last and work and be safe, Ellie will want to leave and find fireflies if she thinks there is a chance at a cure thats the difference
..no, no, with the lie Ellie WILL risk her life just as much.
Regardless of whether he tells the truth or not, him and Ellie will always end up travelling somewhere together. That's just as much putting your life at risk.
Yes if we analyse the writing it suggests Ellie would want that I agree Im saying we dont know 100% fact thats what Ellie wants as she doesn't outright say it thats the point I'm making. We dont know her opinion because we dont hear her opinion about it when all the facts are there in front of her.
Comments
Well it was supposed to be Joel lying to Ellie to keep her safe, so yea that was the ending.
ha man we can discuss this shit until the cows come home... i loved it. it was real and it was bold. and it can be interpreted in many ways. but i dont hate it like some people cuz they felt like empty or mad of what you did. not me i just want more. i want a sequel ( but i dont think there is going to be one) and i want the universe to be extended. and btw i am not mad about the way it played out and im not mad at joel, i wouldve done the same fucking thing.
The ending wasn't great, but it wasn't horrible either.
So I guess I'm satisfied with it.
I hated it to begin with but grew to love it.
It only works if you stop thinking of Joel as the protagonist though. The game shifts perspective to Ellie for the last 1 minute of gameplay for a reason.
For me Joel is the single biggest villain in the game. He prevents millions of lives from being saved because of selfish reasons.
Yes, saving Ellie is selfish. Ellie would not want him to do what he did, as Marlene knows, and as Joel knows, evidenced by him lying to her.
He saved her because he personally couldn't bear to lose his replacement daughter, dooming millions to death in the process.
I love the ending.
I agree with you on that debate honestly however I understand the counteragrument that at this point it was unsure if it would have worked and at this point the world is so messed up a vaccine wouldnt do all that much, its not a cure it would just save the odd person that wasnt instantly killed (Ellie dies by them pretty easily) and the Majoroity of people (including joel and ellie) are straight up killers regardless of cordeceps
Also Joel is more of an anti hero if anything not a straight up villan or protaganist.
oh and I liked the ending, not every ending has to end in a massive way, non endings are pretty good to. Its of anything a (debateably) happy ending which most people didnt predict
If it doesn't work (unlikely considering these are brain surgeons who seem 100% confident they can do it) then one girl dies and nothing changes. If it does work, which is much more likely, then one girl dies and millions of lives are saved. Not taking that minimal chance is ridiculous.
'The world is so messed up a vaccine wouldn't work' is a ridiculous argument. You see people shot in the head for fear they have the disease in the quarantine zone at the start of the game. That shit wouldn't happen. There'd be far less to be afraid of
The point is that if the world is to bee rebuilt, the disease has to be dealt with somehow. You can't just say 'oh the world is shit, there's no point curing the disease that made it shit in the first place'.
I hated it. We went all that way for nothing, it seemed like a pointless journey at that point.
I really love how the game completely neglects the player by letting the protagonist make the choice for me. I don't play games to think, duh.
Not all games need to have choice, they never said it was a choice game ever. thats what the characters did in the writers story.
It's a missed opportunity is all I'm saying. Imagine how cool it would be to have the option to walk out of the building without Ellie....and without the game ever telling you you could do is. There would be no button prompts, no screen text, nothing. What does this add? Depth, surprise, more bang for your buck, makes you think about the ending, makes you discover stuff about yourself....
But yeah, I guess should be happy with a linear, third persoon rollercoaster movie after all a movie ticket costs me 10 euros while a new AAA game costs me 59.99.... wait....
But its not a story based game, there's tons of gameplay.
..it is a story based game.
This game has two hours of cutscenes. Possibly more because of how frequently the game takes little breaks and has you do nothing. The gameplay consists out of the stealth and third person cover-based shooter hybrid that every AAA game under the sun wants to be. See also Tomb Raider, Watch dogs, Hitman Absolution and so on.
I'm curious: do you hate every game that does not allow a player to make decisions?
S you don't like and have never liked Pokemon, Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider, Tetris, Mario Kart, Gears of War, Borderlands etc.?
So like the only companies whose games you can play are Telltale and Bioware?
Maybe better wording was unlike walking dead etc its not only a story based game there is game play in the last of us (I dont count QTE's and walking in select areas gameplay)
Its also not a choice based game may have been better wording
How does lying to her keep her safe?
So Ellie doesnt go running off to find the fireflies again if Joel tells her, in the ending she thinks that they've tried and failed to find a cure so she can rest easy. And not out in the open= Safer
However for me its just Joel covering himself plus I feel Ellie knows he lied in that last "okay". For me Joel was a decent character by the end by how flawed he was unlikeable as a person perhaps but understandable.
Yes not being a choice-based game is better: Mass Effect is a story based game and there's definite gameplay.
Never said he did
Never said she didnt
Joel wiped out the fireflies. Or at least any who would be able to make a cure.
She has the right to know what he did and how he betrayed her.
I'm bothered with the fact that a new IP, a tired third person cover based shooter that doesn't want to take risks, receives so much praise. The story is generic and the gameplay is nothing special. They even go as simplify things for a wider audience. The person were supposed to bond with and protect is essentially a non-element during gameplay. You're going backwards, Naughty Dog. Putting the personality of the characters aside, Resident Evil 4 nailed in 2005 so what's the excuse?
So I must ask, why is it bad if I ask for more player input that doesn't consist out of quicktime events and tired third person-shooting behind cover? If they wanted to make a movie, you should have made a movie and not a game.
And no, I don't hate games that don't allow player choice. I hate games which have the protagonist make a dumb decision without any reason, excuse and more importantly without player involvement. Why am I even here when you don't need me, game?!
I liked that ending. It seemed like a fitting ending to their journey. Fuck the world, I just want to be happy mentality.
Never said he didn't
Never said she didn't
It was pointless and disappointing, but that's the point of the story.
It would be that if Ellie didn't want to die either.
But the ending is Joel lying to her. That's thus not 'fuck the world let's just be happy' as would be a positive end, but it's 'fuck the world AND my dead girlfriend AND my replacement daughter, I'm all that matters'.
You could argue that she didnt know she was going to die, Ellie was planning her life afterwards so she didnt know they were going to kill her for it; that said I assume Ellie would have consented regardless. Marlene and the other should have waited till she woke up to be sure however I know why they didnt.
But you said that if Joel told Ellie the truth she would run off to the fireflies.
That doesn't make sense as by telling her the truth Joel would tell her he murdered all the fireflies.
Oh she definitely didn't know, but she would have consented.
As in find more fireflies, there are still a lot out there and if some end up at the community Ellie may attempt to go with them if she thinks there is a chance. Ellie would believe there was no chance at all if they had attempted and failed with a cure.
Likely but we dont know for sure
But I don';t understand the difference.
As in, if Joel tells Ellie the truth, she may want to return to them and Joel can go with her.
If he doesn't tell her the truth he's still with her. There's no difference between the situations.
The only difference there could possibly be is Joel refusing to help her and knowingly let her risk her life fruitlessly which he wouldn't do.
Exactly thats the key difference with the lie Ellie wont risk her life which is what Joel wants
..the whole point is that she would have consented. It's what the writing tells us.
Marlene: 'It's what she would have wanted!'
Camera focuses on Joel's face as he can't refuse this claim
'...and you know it!'
Likely but we dont know for sure
..no, no, with the lie Ellie WILL risk her life just as much.
Regardless of whether he tells the truth or not, him and Ellie will always end up travelling somewhere together. That's just as much putting your life at risk.
If we actually analyse the writing we do.
There staying at that community with Tommy which Joel believes will last and work and be safe, Ellie will want to leave and find fireflies if she thinks there is a chance at a cure thats the difference
Yes if we analyse the writing it suggests Ellie would want that I agree Im saying we dont know 100% fact thats what Ellie wants as she doesn't outright say it thats the point I'm making. We dont know her opinion because we dont hear her opinion about it when all the facts are there in front of her.
The ending was nice, it showed the father-daughter bond between Joel and Ellie. But I can understand if you didn't like it.