Character not saying the sentence you chose from the convo tree, also in ToMI. why?

Mataku

something that's been bugging me in EMI and Taletell's S&M, and that I've seen here that's been carried on to ToMI is that thing where you're given sentence choices and when you pick one, the character doesn't exactly say that sentence, but rather starts a conversation about the idea that the chosen sentence represents. You can see in the video, the player selects "prepare to be boarded" but guybrush starts talking with "heave to..." and all that. I don't know why this has become the norm in games that have convo trees. When I choose a sentence I expect to hear the character say it, if not only to assure myself that i actually DID choose that sentence and my hand didn't slip or something, but mostly because it just makes sense. Am I the only one who's bothered by this?

Also, doesn't the captain's shirt remind you of Prince Alexander from 'king's quest 6'?

Planeforger

I'm not bothered by it at all, as long as the lines essentially mean the same thing. Why would you want to hear them speak out the same line you just read? That'd get a bit repetitive.

Edward VanHelgen

yes, i find it interesting also, its like u get two dialogs in one, as long as the writings are good. also, anyone remember the joke from earlier mi games, when u get dialog options to say something brave, i cant quite remember in which scene, but whatever you choose guybrush would say something sissy

Secret Fawful

Mataku wrote: »

something that's been bugging me in EMI and Taletell's S&M, and that I've seen here that's been carried on to ToMI is that thing where you're given sentence choices and when you pick one, the character doesn't exactly say that sentence, but rather starts a conversation about the idea that the chosen sentence represents. You can see in the video, the player selects "prepare to be boarded" but guybrush starts talking with "heave to..." and all that. I don't know why this has become the norm in games that have convo trees. When I choose a sentence I expect to hear the character say it, if not only to assure myself that i actually DID choose that sentence and my hand didn't slip or something, but mostly because it just makes sense. Am I the only one who's bothered by this?

Also, doesn't the captain's shirt remind you of Prince Alexander from 'king's quest 6'?

Now I think people are nitpicking just a little too much. Sometimes this method of dialog can be used for a comedic effect. It was present in MI2 as well.

corruptbiggins

It also saves from typing the whole response verbatim in the dialogue options. I like it because I think it makes it easier to be sure what your character is trying to say and, like previously mentioned, it gets boring just hearing what you have already just read.

I apologise if the above doesn't make much sense, not sure if I'm getting my point across how I want it - I blame too many vodkas & cheap red bull alternatives.

MusicallyInspired

I like it.

pilouuuu

Yes, it's OK as long as both options are well written.

It's like when you think about an idea in your head and then when you tell it, you don't use the same exact words. I guess it's to simulate that.

Games like Mass Effect use it too.

Breakman

It all depends. I've played games (not necessarily adventure games) that I picked a certain dialog choice and it ends up totally different from what I thought it meant. I've gotten myself in trouble in Harvest Moon and Steambot Chronicles more than a few times.

Luckily, adventure games from Telltale and the old LucasArts don't penalize you for selecting silly written or double-meaning answers.

Mike Haley

Edward VanHelgen wrote: »

yes, i find it interesting also, its like u get two dialogs in one, as long as the writings are good. also, anyone remember the joke from earlier mi games, when u get dialog options to say something brave, i cant quite remember in which scene, but whatever you choose guybrush would say something sissy

Imagine this...

Guybrush is surrounded by an overwhelming number of sword wielding pirates, and you, the player choose the dialogue option, "I will keelhaul the lot of you, and spit on your graves, you lolly lickers," but instead, Guybrush says, "Uh, nice day, isn't it?"

It would be hazardous to Guybrush's health to make an insulting comment at a time such as that, but having the option is still amusing.

Duate

yeah. it's wicked boring reading a whole line and then having to sit there while they say it. plus it ruins jokes. in sam and max a lot of the jokes would have been just "heh" if you read them verbatim in the dialog tree. it's much funnier to be surprised at something hilarious that they say out loud based on an dialog "mood" you chose

Important-Looking Pirate

this is nitpicking but a good point as straying away from the 'script' often doesn't feel right and in many cases is just waffle. It bothers me where the essence of the chosen dialogue option isn't expressed such as the example where "prepare to be boarded!" alone would have sufficed. I liked how CMI was tighter with this and stuck more to the script and what you chose guybrush to say. I think this is an important gameplay element. 'Off-script' jokes can always be added in a followup sentence after the main dialogue choice. Perfect example is (can't remember exact but something like):

Dialogue choice: "back in grade-school they used to call me the DART master!"

Guybrush says: "back in grade-school they used to call me the DART master! or something that rhymed with that anyway

Fury

I prefer this method, I saw the trailer and I thought it was awesome.

And you can still pull off the MI3 Andre style jokes with this system.

It's win-win for me.

Molokov

It was used to great effect in Sam and Max.

Sam is talking to Max, and can choose the option "Tell me about your first kiss, Max". But when you click on it Sam would say something like "I just thought of something really disturbing that I'm not even going to mention it"

The Burninator

I think it allows them to put a joke into the sentence without you seeing it first. And I like it, adds a tonne of variety that you don't really see.

Kind of off topic, but I think we need to see more of the dual conversations where Sam and Max are interrogating someone, like from the start of S&M season 1, with Jimmy Two-Teeth, that was classic.

doodo!

Just as long as we're not trying to order food from a restaraunt or give specific traveling directions to some one we'll be ok .

LogicDeLuxe

This method was used occasionally since the invention of multiple choice dialogs, I think. And it is useful in several ways:

This can be used to suggest emotions. There are a few occasion in MI2 where Guybrush just don't dare to say what he had in mind. One example is when Wally is captured in that cell and Guybrush get trapped when reaching for the key.

Then, this can be used as an element of surprise. One example is in MI1 the dialog with the Voodoo Lady. There are some possible selections where Guybrush doesn't say anything at all, but the Voodoo Lady immediately starts to speak, knowing already what he was to say.

Mostly it is used to save screen space though, I think. Which is fine, as it is a bit boring to read a sentence over several lines, select it, and hear the exact same long sentence again. A short summarize in the selection is sufficient, imho.

Another alternative was the dialogs represented by icons, as seen in "The Dig" and "Sam & Max: Hit the Road". The aspect I don't like about this approach is, that you never know, if the dialog is just repeated, or if there is actually more to come when the same icon is selected repeatedly. Thus, I prefer short sentences in the dialog selection.

SurplusGamer

I have to say I like the old way of having it say exactly what the dialogue would be. Part of the fun for me was always reading all the possible dialogue in there, like the joke in MI2: when you can tell Phatt 'I'll be back!' or 'I'll be BACK!' or 'I'll BE back!' etc. doesn't really work with that system. I like those little dialogue jokes, they're very monkey-islandy, and I don't know why but this seems to take away from that.

Doesn't bother me overly.... just a touch.

Shwoo

I like the way the options don't match what the character says. It's funnier that way, and less repetitive. In Sam & Max, I assumed the options are what Sam is thinking, which would explain why Hugh Bliss recites them exactly when he reads his mind, and why Sam doesn't say anything when you select the option to ask Max about his first kiss, or to ask

naked Bosco

if the carpet matches the drapes.

Kradath

I think it would destroy my fun if I read everytime the sentence before the person says it, I would liklier skip the audio afterwards as I already know what the sentence is about. I like it how it is now.

fwed1

I much prefer the old method of say what I tell you to say. Except in rare humourous cases where Guybrush would basically say ARE YOU JOKING!? to me. If I tell Guybrush to say prepare to be borded I do not want him to say I am coming aboard... it doesn't have the same effect. It really disappointed me in Sam and Max when I thought this line would be funny to say I wonder what his reaction will be and then it is changed t a boring sentence. I also like to read all the dialogue options as I will not be able to experience them all usually without replaying that section in a new game.

To sum up:
I like main characters to read what I tell them to.
I don't mind odd humourous occasions where he says his own thing so he doesn't get in trouble/offend
Not saying what I told him to say annoys me.

For example if you told Guybrush to look at a poster and he walked over, picked it up and threw it in the sea you wouldn't be too happy.

Silverwolfpet

fwed1 wrote: »

For example if you told Guybrush to look at a poster and he walked over, picked it up and threw it in the sea you wouldn't be too happy.

No, but that would get me laughing for a week non-stop. I'd be like, wth?!?! : ) ) )

tredlow

Secret Fawful wrote: »

Now I think people are nitpicking just a little too much. Sometimes this method of dialog can be used for a comedic effect. It was present in MI2 as well.

Yeah, like in Sam and Max s01e05, in the COPS's virtual control room, when you talk to Max, there's this really long dialog sentence that you can choose, but when you choose it, Sam only says 'Stark.'

Anyway... While I love the new method, the method I prefer would actually be the choices being not too specific. It would be like 'Ask him about the rat' or 'Tell him to dance'.

The spoken dialog would be different, but it will be what we want him to say.

Duate

what you think is not always what you say

guitarsareboring

inso wrote: »

I have to say I like the old way of having it say exactly what the dialogue would be. Part of the fun for me was always reading all the possible dialogue in there, like the joke in MI2: when you can tell Phatt 'I'll be back!' or 'I'll be BACK!' or 'I'll BE back!' etc. doesn't really work with that system. I like those little dialogue jokes, they're very monkey-islandy, and I don't know why but this seems to take away from that.

Doesn't bother me overly.... just a touch.

When I first read the thread I disagreed with the original post because it's nice to not know quite what Guybrush is about to say, but seeing this has changed my mind. I think I'd like a mixture of the two because these choices were always enternaining in the games.

Irishmile

Its because TTG programmers are control freaks and they secretly hate us....

Just kidding... or am I?

Scurvyliver

Hey I'm new to TellTale and I just played a demo of SamNMax.. I cant help agree with the first point about how the speech changes from which dialogue choice is actually picked.

I supose you get used to it, but that is the fun, choosing which sentence you want to say - not paraphrased or reworded. It's okay to build upon the original choice once it's said though.

Mi2 is classic, even down to choosing which words are emphasised:
"Ill BE back"
"Ill be BACK"
"I'LL be back"

Scurvyliver

Ooops i really should have read through all the posts instead of skipping to the end, and missing the "ill be back" reference earlier :P

Why couldn't someone have chosed MY dialogue!

PickledJesus

I agree that it's occasionally funny, like in MI2 when Guybrush is stuck in Lechuck's cage and just says *gulp* despite whatever you choose, but in LotSN it happens basically every time you can choose from three similar options, really annoying. It makes the dialogue trees so linear they become dialogue trunks, it also removes replay value as you can't pick a different option later to see a different reponse.

Edit: To clarify, I don't think it's bad when you click one line and the meaning remains the same but is said in different words, if anything that's a good idea to remove repetition. It's bad when you're presented with a choice, often subtly different phrasing, which does exactly the same thing for every option.

Frogacuda

Mataku wrote: »

something that's been bugging me in EMI and Taletell's S&M, and that I've seen here that's been carried on to ToMI is that thing where you're given sentence choices and when you pick one, the character doesn't exactly say that sentence, but rather starts a conversation about the idea that the chosen sentence represents. You can see in the video, the player selects "prepare to be boarded" but guybrush starts talking with "heave to..." and all that. I don't know why this has become the norm in games that have convo trees. When I choose a sentence I expect to hear the character say it, if not only to assure myself that i actually DID choose that sentence and my hand didn't slip or something, but mostly because it just makes sense. Am I the only one who's bothered by this?

The reason for this is simple: Voice acting. You don't want to read a message in text and then have to listen to him say exactly what you just read. This is especially true in a humor-based game, since you will have the punchline spoiled for you if he says exactly what you chose.

Mass Effect does the same thing for the same reason (since it was Bioware's first full-voiced game). Under a Killing Moon did it even further back than that. I really like it. It's the right way to do it.

orskasm

Ok I haven't read every post... I agree with this sentiment. I agree that it increases the funny factor when the dialogue is a surprise, but there was a moment early in the game, when each tree selection prompted the same dialogue from GT, this may have been intentional, but either way...overall it hasn't affected my opinion of the game. One way or another. I'd be interested to hear from PMs of other peoples opinions cuz i dont have time to check EVERY forum post.

Teppic

Frogacuda wrote: »

The reason for this is simple: Voice acting. You don't want to read a message in text and then have to listen to him say exactly what you just read. This is especially true in a humor-based game, since you will have the punchline spoiled for you if he says exactly what you chose.

The punchline isn't spoiled if you choose what to say. As I see it, by choosing what the character says, you can steer the conversation in the direction you want, to see what witty speech that outcome will have by the other character.

But I don't think dialogue options is the biggest problem with conversations in ToMI. Even if the dialogue would be seen as it's fullest, or spoken like it's written, I think it would matter that much. It's the conversations themselves that are lacking. They don't really have that simplicity, humor and playfulness that made the first games so great.

Typbürste

fwed1 wrote: »

I much prefer the old method of say what I tell you to say. Except in rare humourous cases where Guybrush would basically say ARE YOU JOKING!? to me. If I tell Guybrush to say prepare to be borded I do not want him to say I am coming aboard... it doesn't have the same effect. It really disappointed me in Sam and Max when I thought this line would be funny to say I wonder what his reaction will be and then it is changed t a boring sentence. I also like to read all the dialogue options as I will not be able to experience them all usually without replaying that section in a new game.

To sum up:
I like main characters to read what I tell them to.
I don't mind odd humourous occasions where he says his own thing so he doesn't get in trouble/offend
Not saying what I told him to say annoys me.

For example if you told Guybrush to look at a poster and he walked over, picked it up and threw it in the sea you wouldn't be too happy.

I couldn't say it better. I fully agree ! I hope the guys from Telltale read this and the other posts und it will affect the other eipsodes. Maybe they can make a poll or a survey with some users and find out what we like and dislike.

I also think the game would look a whole lot better in 2d with drawn backgrounds, like CMI.
There are no details in the game now. Good drawn backgrounds can look so great and give a completely different amtosphere, which IMO fit better to adventures.

Guinea

About people who say that punchlines benefit from saying stuff other than the choice says:
Usually Guybrush is not the one to throw the punchline, but the guy who responds to whatever he just said. And that you can not read in the dialogue choice.

Also I have noticed that TMI Guybrush does a lot of times repeat exactly the same words as you can see in the dialogue choice box, it's very rare actually that he says something else.

FoboldFKY

I think that if an option is presented, and I click on it, Guybrush should say it. Some of my favourite moments from previous MI games were going through all the various things I could say and how the characters would respond. Just take the scene with Wally at the start of CoMI; it's fun listening to all the different variations.

The people insisting that having Guybrush say something other than what the player clicked on can be used to good effect are, I think, a bit off task here. It's only funny when it's the exception, not the rule. Like the scene with the Voodoo Lady in CoMI where she asks if you want to see pictures of her kids.

If you know Guybrush isn't likely to actually SAY what you tell him to, then you also realise that your choices don't actually matter. And when it gets to that, why even bother with the illusion of choice?

I'm kinda hoping that this isn't a budget (costs too much to record the extra lines) or a timeline (VO is recorded and THEN the extra lines are dreamed up) restriction.

JackiJinx

Using this method is alright every once in awhile, but when it's used with the frequency that occurred when talking to the journalist, the humor dies.

hammy797

Yeah, I actually would have liked to see a difference in the player's dialogue choices when talking to the journalist as well...

milanv

I also think that the old way (MI3) worked better, Guybrush would almost always say what you "ordered" him to, and only rarely would he change it and it was funny. This new style really breaks the illusion of choice because it is overused. I always wanted to see the reaction of characters when I select some crazy stuff to say, but in this chapter/game it would just come out flat no matter what I chose. It was disappointing.

kjetulf

I bet the people at TellTale had the same discussion as we're having now, and ended with the same result: The majority wanted it like it is now, and so they made it that way.

Maeode

Duate wrote: »

what you think is not always what you say

sure i dont say everything i think... but i always plan and think out what i'm going to say.. otherwise i find i say a lot of nonsense that is better worth being excluded in my thought process before i speak
unfortunately i have to agree with you that most people certainly don't give anywhere as much thought to what they're saying -_-


back on to topic, I like it when the majority of the lines are said exactly as typed, however, i'm not against lines being changed every now and again for comedic effect.
i found at the beginning of ToMI:LotSN with the journalist there were far too many changes, that really weren't that funny -_- it got quite aggrivating, lol. i haven't been able to play much further than that yet :P just talked to everyone in town, and I don't recall hearing it happen much more since the journalist

xaRoc

Planeforger wrote: »

I'm not bothered by it at all, as long as the lines essentially mean the same thing. Why would you want to hear them speak out the same line you just read? That'd get a bit repetitive.

I disagree, since all TOMI options lead to the same basic dialog. What I remember of CURSE and ESCAPE is that most dialog options said what they promised and included a (mostly) different response from NPCs. It seems that most, if not all, of TOMI's dialog trees lead to Guybrush saying the same thing, no matter what is written in subtitle--leading to the same NPC response. This makes replay redundant, rather than replay offering different gag lines.

In reverse of what you claim, TOMI's replay value drops when the main character doesn't speak the subtitles offered.

Austin P

It's a little disconcerting with the dialog is rephrased, but in previous Telltale games it wasn't much of a hinderance.

This game isn't like that. Choice was a big part of the previous Monkey Island games (well, Secret was more limited than the ones that followed it, but still). People sometimes defend it by saying that they did that in previous Monkey Island games, but they overlook the not-so-hard-to-miss essential part of the way they did it. Guybrush wouldn't do it at random, he would almost always only do it when saying what you picked would be a really, really bad idea. Like talking back to a smuggler king and insulting a man of questionable stability who's in a big boat loaded with cannons while you're just in a rowboat. It's true, sometimes the characters would still have the same response each time, but at many points it'd just be redundant for them to have a unique response to a generic dialog choice. In Narwhal, it's not funny, and it comes off as lazy. The game's already short, so what's the point of not adding in a couple more lines of dialog when the opportunity presents itself?