How are the Whitehills Bolton Bannerman?
The Dreadfort is on the other coast of The North, far beyond Highpoint. If the Whitehills do live somewhere in the Wolfswood, they would be Glover Bannerman, not Bolton, or the Boltons have a Bannerman enclave.
Red is land controlled by the Boltons. Black is the supposed area where Highpoint is located.
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Did I miss something in the game though, because I don't remember it saying the exact position of Highpoint. When did it?
Lord Thorren, Gregor's father, seized back the rivervalleys from the Whitehills. So that means the Whitehills are close neighbours
The river continues in Bolton territory though, right? So Highpoint could be located around there.
I don't believe they're talking about that river. A river that major would mean the Forresters have as much land as the Boltons.
EDIT: The North is the size of America, roughly, as well
and most plotholes are solved by us, the fans, for free....
Just another in a long list of plotholes and continuity errors. Not much point in worrying about it.
I wouldn't read too much into it. The story needed a rival family, one that also had history with Ironwood. And at this point in the story the Boltons control the north, so it males sense to have the Whitehills strongly aligned with them.
Maybe it's a cadet branch of the Whitehill family at Highpoint who have kept their fealty to the Boltons despite moving away, and the main branch of the family is still in the Bolton lands. Another mystery solved hypothetically.
But even before that, before the Starks were displaced, they were Bolton bannerman
a house can't simply pick up and leave, even if they did, the Glover's would not be pleased and start an open war
You obviously don't know what a cadet branch is. Look up House Flint or House Lannister of Lannisport.
Well, I do know what a cadet branch is, but still the Glover's wouldn't like Bolton bannerman right next to them.
I'm sure they probably wouldn't. But it certainly wouldn't be enough to start a war. Presuming the cadet Whitehill branch built Highpoint on unclaimed land and weren't causing any trouble or attacking them, the Glovers wouldn't have cause to try to dispel them. The Glovers may have been wary of the Boltons, like most of the Northern allies are, but up until the Red Wedding they were technically allies under house Stark. Not to mention, this would have been decades, if not centuries ago. All sorts of things could have changed since then, in terms of the political climate, the strength of houses and their ability to defend their land etc. Maybe the Whitehills at Highpoint did swear fealty to the Glovers, as a gesture of good will, but didn't really mean it. And given the Whitehills have never tried to attack the Glovers, the Glovers have just co-existed with them all this time, but kept an eye on them.
Or maybe it's just a plothole.
Plothole indeed, you should pay Telltale for the Explanation
I don't think GRRM has ever listed or mapped out the territories of the medium-strength houses in Westeros. So it could be the Bolton demesne stretches up to the southern shores of Long Lake, through the Lonely Hills, which would be a good candidate for Whitehill territory. The extent of the Wolfswood isn't particularly clear either. Some fan made maps show it snaking all the way up to Last Hearth. There's certainly woodland up there, as the Umbers are a major producer of timber in the books (they and the Glovers provide the wood for Manderly's ships). The official maps in the World of Ice and Fire worldbook and at the start of each novel show some forest between the King's Road and the White Knife, at the very least. If that's part of the Wolfswood and under the Glovers' jurisdiction it would be a good candidate for House Forrester's fief, placing them right next to the Whitehills with only the headwaters of the White Knife (the river valleys) between them. It would also make Gared taking the King's Road all the way to Ironrath fairly reasonable.
Alright, I did some revision (Thanks to your research, I appreciate it!) The red dot is the seat of Ironrath based on the intro.
There are Houses in the North loyal to the Boltons that aren't in the same geographical area. Look at the below keeps on the map: they're all loyal to the Boltons.
Examples:
House Cerwyn of Cerwyn.
House Dustin of Barrowton.
House Locke of Oldcastle.
House Ryswell of the Rills.
House Stout of Goldgrass.
Based on what?
House Cerwyn, Dustin, and Ryswell are Stark bannermen in the books. Their loyalties (and existance) have yet to be stated in the show. The latter two are major lords in the North, equals of the Boltons prior to the Red Wedding. House Locke are Manderly vassals, though I'd understand you making them Bolton bannermen given "Locke" in the show. And House Stout are probably subordinate to the Dustins, given they're from the Barrowlands.
I mean, in a real feudal system it would be messy, with houses owning lands and the fealty of others all over the place. But it isn't the case in Westeros.
All the Houses I mentioned swear fealty to the Boltons after the Red Wedding in the books. House Locke's loyalty is questionable because of the Manderly connection.
Well, yeah, they're sworn to the Boltons after the Red Wedding, because the Boltons are the new Great House and Roose is the Warden of the North. The Boltons now rule over the entire North, so technically all of those houses are in the geographical area controlled by the Boltons. But they weren't before. Before, they were effectively on the same level in the hierarchy as those houses you listed, as fellow vassals of the Starks. Besides, if the Whitehills have been Bolton bannermen for thousands of years, then the Red Wedding is irrelevant to this discussion.
Gotcha. But that's in relation to the Boltons being proclaimed Wardens. Technically every house in the North owes their loyalty to them now, as Ethan can say in episode one. New loyalties in place of the old Stark ones. Quite different to the Whitehill situation, which is at the heart of the discussion. As I've said earlier in the thread, the limits of Bolton and Glover territory are vague, and the extent of the Wolfswood has yet to be stated. So the idea of Bolton lands butting up against it is fine by me.
I will twist your nips at the ongoing absence of Glovers from your game, though. With gratitude and respect. But twisting all the same.
In the first episode, the caption said Gared was travelling on the Kingsroad through Forrester Lands. Looking at the map, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be a point where the Kingsroad goes anywhere near Forrester lands, so unless Ironrath is somewhere completely different from where it is implied to be, I don't think that kind of technical accuracy is important to Telltale. Not to mention, how Gared managed to get into the North from the Twins given the only safe way across the Neck is through Moat Cailin, which was being held by the Ironborn at the time. Must have caught a ship or something. Or however Roose managed it (in the show).
Maybe it's like this. It would also explain why it is possible the kingsroad is running down Forrester lands in episode 1.
Bit of a stretch, but I'll buy it.
hmm... the Whitehills are still an enclave and they are located in the Northern Mountian Clans region. By the distance I'd say it's a day's ride journey to Ironrath.
Look at an old map of Europe and you will see borders aren't always easy to define and there are plenty of enclaves and exclaves. Also based on the intro Ironwrath is closer to the mountains.
House Forrester also swears loyalty to the Boltons after the Red Wedding. That doesn't make them, or other houses like Cerwyns, Lockes, etc. the same as the Whitehills, who have been Bolton bannermen for "five fuckin' generations" ie prior to the Red Wedding. All of the houses you've mentioned are way too far away from the Dreadfort to be governed from there, which is why they were never subordinate to House Bolton prior to the Red Wedding. House Whitehill, on the other hand, ought to be close to the Dreadfort for the Boltons to control them for as long as they have. However, in order for them to be close to the Forresters, who live near Deepwood Motte, the Whitehills have to be out of the Bolton sphere of influence. The game places Highpoint closer to Winterfell than to the Dreadfort, which doesn't make sense if the Whitehills are Bolton bannermen.
Prior to the Red Wedding, House Cerwyn is sworn directly to Winterfell, House Locke is sworn to White Harbor, Houses Ryswell and Dustin are similar in size and strength to the Glovers and Boltons, and not sworn to another minor house, but directly to he Starks. After the Red Wedding, all the Northern houses swore to the Boltons, as the Wardens of the North, but the Whitehills were supposedly their banner men for generations. If they were to be rivals to House Forrester, they need to be near the Wolfswood, and thus should be vassals of the Glovers as well, or at least sworn directly to Winterfell, like House Cerwyn is. I understand why, in the game, it is necessary to have the Whitehills be Bolton banner men, but it does not make sense looking at the geography of the North, because the Dreadfort and Wolfswood are on opposite ends of the Kingdom.
Best possible explanation. In fact, it kinda makes sense now. Ironrath = closer to Winterfell (Starks) and Whitehill = closer to Dreadfort (Boltons).
Both the Whitehills and Forresters are Mountain Clans. Ironrath is at the southern tip in between 2 mountains as shown in both the map in the game when planning and the intro.
Isn't Karhold where the Karstarks are? They were Stark bannermen.. over on the opposite side of the Boltons.
In the books the Forresters are sworn to the Glovers (who are sworn to the Starks), but that still works proximity-wise, I guess.
Every northern house were Stark bannermen, but the Karstarks had their own sphere of influence on the area around them. Karhold is not a direct vassal of Winterfell.
Karhold is a direct vassal of Winterfell, with their own influence. Winterfell is the capital of The North. Karhold is a regional capital. Country above region, and region above county.
The weirdest thing is, if anybody plays the Game of Thrones mod for CK2, you'll find both the Foresters and the Whitehills. The Foresters are in their usual spot in Glover territory, but the Whitehills have a castle in the White Harbor region of all places, and are set as vassals of the Manderly Lord. No idea where that information was taken from, but it certainly makes the blood feud (which is actually in the mod) seem a bit senseless over such a long distance.
You didn't get the updated version of the CK2 AGoT mod. House Whitehill is now sworn to the Boltons, but now are at a more understandable location.
Yeah, I saw a Forester playthrough online, so I know they fixed it (and the House sigil and members) recently, just haven't updated the mod. That said, it's still odd that they added the Whitehills in the White Harbor region to begin with. Is there some prior mention of the House before Telltale? Or were they added as part of the game, but placed wrong for no reason.
before TTGoT rolled along, the semi-cannon sources say House Whitehill is one of the few houses to worship the seven. The mod team thought at first they would be sworn to the Manderly's, since they were too followers of the new gods.
The map in the Game is wrong. The Whitehills stronghold of Highpoint to way closer to The Dreadfort in the real Game of Thrones world. And Ironwrath is a little more to the right; above Winterfell. The Two house border each other because their overlord Houses border each other which are the Glovers and the Boltons.