Theory: Elissa & Ludd's Past
I've tossed this theory around before and it's kicked around on Tumblr because some people seem to agree and others see the possibilities of it. But this thread is solely a theory. Nothing more. I can't say whether this is true or not, since I'm not a part of Telltale, or I could be reading into the lines too much... But I believe that Elissa Forrester and Ludd Whitehill have more than just the normal kind of history. It's not a theory I like all too much, but it definitely adds some more complexity to the character of Elissa and Ludd.
This is what we know of Elissa's past: Elissa Forrester was born to House Branfield, a minor Southron House that was destroyed when the Targaryen dynasty fell. In the aftermath of the defeat, Lady Elissa was married to Lord Gregor. She at first saw herself as a prisoner at Ironrath, but Gregor was kind to his young wife and she quickly grew to love him. Once their children were born, Lady Elissa embraced her role as the Forrester matriarch and silently swore she’d never see her family destroyed again. She was married off to Gregor most likely to get her and Malcolm's compliance since the rest of her family was probably exiled or executed, if they did not die in the War, and there was no one to take over the House or King Robert would not allow. Or perhaps Malcolm, who I get the feeling is younger than her, was too young or did not want to leave his Sister to face the Forresters alone. So, Elissa and Gregor was married after Robert's Rebellion ended. Gregor was nice to her, but she was cold to him in turn and didn't want to be there, didn't want to be married to him... So, why not be glad to know someone else can hate him as much as she did then? Who else could possibly hate or dislike him as much as she, other than Ludd Whitehill? I believe in her first year at Ironrath she could have probably already been pregnant with Rodrik. Even though, I believe Gregor would have given her a grace period to her to let her settle in, although not fully know that she did not like being at Ironrath and married to him.
But I see during this time where she felt like a prisoner at Ironrath, she found someone to talk to other than her brother and her husband, and that person was Ludd Whitehill. I see a suggested history other than her being feared by Ludd Whitehill. I take several factors from the game when I look at this theory, but I see this suggested history is possibly sexual. Yes, boys and girls, I think they've had some sexual history of some sorts. And Maybe Elissa had motives behind it if it is true. Perhaps she wanted Gregor to find out or someone that was close to Gregor so he would know and tear apart the relationship-- I'm not sure, but there are things in the game that just seem to click and fit with this.
Episode 1:
- Ludd gets submissive when Elissa first shows up. He does a complete 180 degree turn when he starts talking to her; he gets submissive and quiets down and nervous even. In my opinion, he also looks at her differently as well whenever she's around.
- She also treats him differently from the rest of the Forresters as I've seen.
- Elissa also calls him by his first name, Ludd, never Lord Whitehill in my playthroughs except for when she first addressed him.
- The story of Asher's rage with the Miller's boy that bullied Ethan. Even though it's a description alone, it seems to match Lord Whitehill's own ( eyyy wounded boar ).
Episode 2:
- Even though he's briefly in the episode with barging into the time with Elaena and Rodrik and at the Funeral; he's pretty much teasing Elissa with Ryon, very rudely mind, when he says, "Oh, She practically begged me to come."
- Gwyn's appearance. Her hair is nearly the same color as Elissa's, she wears it in a similar style as well. Her clothes nearly match too. Possibly eye color similarity as well (?).
- Asher's Blond hair compared to the rest of the Forresters being shades of brown.
- As for the Funeral, I've not played through and kissed Ludd's ring (I can't do it, it bothers me too much). So, if any of you have noticed anything about Ludd during the burnings-- feel free to share.
If this theory rings true, it is possible that Asher and Gwyn are siblings, which I truly hope isn't true since they later run off and tumble with each other. Since Elissa could have split them when they were babes to keep Gregor from finding out about her relationship with Ludd Whitehill. Either ways, it's this theory or Ludd has long harbored a twisted kind of crush on the Lady of Ironrath. It seems plausible to me due to the way they act around each other and how they treat one another.
So, thoughts?
Comments
I don't think any of the Forresters and Whitehills are siblings, but I expect that Elissa could have been betrothed to Ludd at some point until her father realised the Forresters were better off (or the marriage was rearranged following the massacre of her original house).
I hope that TTG doesn't go down the incest route, but a potential romantic history between Elissa and Ludd (even if it is one sided) is fine with me.
I really doubt that Lady Forrester might be the mother of Gwyn and the other Whitehills, how could she hide a pregnancy from her husband? The only chance is that Asher, Talia and Ryon are Ludd's children because of the hair (btw Asher's hair looks lighter because of the sun of Essos, I know blonde people who have darker hair in winter and lighter hair in summer), but I doubt that too, I don't see Telltale doing this type of plot twist.
Interesting theory though.
Ehhh. I wouldn't say that all the Forresters aren't siblings. Elissa could have been unfaithful, but her nature to me, suggests otherwise and that she learned to fall in love with Gregor. Asher is just the one that seems to be the odd man out in the family. And yes, true, very true... She could have been (forcibly) betrothed to Ludd Whitehill first but then was set up with Gregor. It never specifies whether her Father died during the Rebellion or not, but I would think that since she is from Southern Westeros, that he would marry her off to another Southron lord instead of sending her off to the North. And it was possibly decided to disband the remains of her house due to not wanting the South to revolt again with the Targaryen Dynasty having fallen.
And I don't much like the incest route either... But the potential romance factor is intriguing.
Definitely not all the Whitehills. If this theory works, I think it would be that Gwyn and Asher could have been Fraternal twins... Then nothing more, because Elissa might have seen that it was too troublesome or fell in love with Gregor. And yes, his hair color might have gotten darker or lighter at different times, but it's just the current observation as of now. Yet, if Talia is also Ludd's, then that would make Ethan related to him by blood as well, and I don't see that since he treats Ethan as harshly as the others...
And yes, a strange, intriguing, and bothersome theory that has been sitting on my chest since I played the first episode. I'm leaning more to the side that Ludd has some twisted crush for her. Possibly try to claim her later on in the series and take her away from her family if he can.
God... Imagine if one of the Forresters turned out to be Ludd's bastard.
Zooms in on Asher specifically. He seems the most likely... But Ryon could too now that I think about it. But I needn't try and add more fuel to this fire since most of what was said above already accumulated on stray thoughts. whispers to self: t h e o ry.
It would be both earth-shattering and just... lots and lots of betrayal.
A small problem with your theory. Elissa married Gregor before the Rebellion. Quite some time before.
If this theory is true, however, particularly the part about the affair... I think the most likely person to be offspring of Ludd+Elissa would be Asher.
I really like your theory, it would add a LOT of depth to the story and I think it's as much likely as it is unlikely... but definitely would tie into the story on so many different levels. Though, whoever said that one of the known Whitehill children could also be one of Lady Forrester's children... I doubt it. It's not like nobody would notice her being pregnant/giving birth... and even if she gave birth to twins, it'd be near impossible to hide the fact that there was a "second" and ship it off to live with the Whitehills. "o i take 1 child u take the other, fair ryte?!"
Actually, pretty much all evidence from the codex in the game about Elissa to the wikis say that Elissa was married to Gregor after Robert's Rebellion. And I've never once heard Elissa state that she was married to Gregor before the Rebellion. Even if that was true, basing off appearances in the Games, Gregor's in his mid-50's to late-50's, he could have possibly even been 60, and Elissa is in her 40's. At the time before the Rebellion, it would have made Gregor a child and Elissa could have not been born or was a baby... Obviously the ages aren't right but they're a range... It would seem too far-fetched if she was married to him before the Targaryen Dynasty fell. Maybe promised to him. But I still believe her Father would marry her to another Southron Lord, not send her off to the North where she knows nobody.
You definitely raise some interesting points about it even though I feel Telltale won't go down the Incest route, but probably still use whatever kind of History they have against us in this coming episode. And yes, my mistake, I suppose. It would definitely be hard to conceal another child born unless she swore the Maester to secrecy, told Gregor the second one died or-- something. Now it's not making sense to me too... I think it was actually a collective decision on the small council to send Asher away to prevent war. I know I've read some things about it somewhere or heard it in-game when I wasn't fully paying attention, but even so-- Elissa doesn't strike me as a Mother who send her child away, even if it was possible he was in an incestial relationship with his half-sister if he is Ludd's Bastard.
Using a Bastard, however, against a man who probably has just as much deep-rooted northman traditions as Ned Stark or as Gregor or Ser Royland; Ludd might not actually care all that much for Asher and probably see it as an insolent move against him with Elissa trying to stir up the past. And yes, for the blackmail if she is the Traitor, it has to be much more than threats over Ryon. But even if she isn't the Traitor, Ludd might use it as a shock factor to sow more disagreement and doubt between the council. Elissa might have to explain the whole story after they return from Highpoint. But still, pure speculation, as this could really be nothing and Ludd simply fears her as some people suggest or is obsessed with her.
If Ryon is Ludd's son, maybe Ludd wont hurt him, and maybe thats why he doean't misstreat him...
Perhaps. But in all honesty, I don't fully trust Gwyn when she says that Ryon's safe and that she's watching over him, because there are times where she's not with him, like at the Funeral or when she meets with Rodrik in their secret meeting.
Read the codex again. It clearly says that she was married to Gregor some time before the Rebellion. And what are you talking about age wise? The Rebellion was less than 20 years ago. Elissa is probably in her 40s, and Gregor his 50s. That would've placed them in the 20s-30s range around that time.
Hm! Whoops. It does indeed look like I was wrong about that point. It's been a while since I've checked the codexs in-game. Yes, that much is true, but I've considered the possible timeline, the years, and the fact that in canon, couples are tended to be betrothed and married off young. My error though... It just seems that sometimes some of this stuff doesn't fit with the actual canon, but whatever, I enjoy the game nonetheless. But yes, I do agree that Elissa is in her 40s and Gregor his 50s, but judging loosely on real life-- I would say Elissa's at least to her earlier to mid-40s; whilst Gregor in his earlier to mid-50s, putting a possible ten year age gap between them. But we don't know any of the Forrester's real ages. We can take guesses or draw straws, but I'd really like to know their exact ages.
I just wish some of my other questions that arose from this could be answered. Such as why her Father would send her so far North? And how Malcolm survived if he fought with his family as a loyalist...
Lol. I remember when Ludd came to Ironrath in Episode 2 and said "I'm going to take what should've been mine long time ago" (more or less) and I was like HE IS GOING TO TAKE ELISSA AWAY! But it was revealed he only wanted the trees... meh boring
Yeah, no kidding. It felt and sounded like he wanted more than just the Ironwoods though, because even if this theory isn't real; Ludd's got some kind of connection to Elissa that's one-sided. It would be some build of Character if it is revealed that Ludd has loved Elissa or even if they had an affair on the side somewhere. And, as of right now to me, Ludd seems to be a very flat character, and I'm very interested in the Whitehills and their past.
We only know that Ryon is 7 and Asher is 21 at the least (having been exiled at 17, then fighting with Beskha for 4 years - however it's unknown how long the period of time was between him reaching Essos and meeting Beskha). I'd also like some confirmation :P
Perhaps her father knew something was about to go down and sent her away to keep her safe? And also it's mentioned in character bios that Malcolm has no desire to marry or continue his family line so he may have been spared and no longer regarded as a 'threat'.
I suppose so. That could have been so or Elissa's father maybe wanted to see if he could secure Ironwood from the marriage. And as for Malcolm, I like to think that Elissa was the one who kept him from being exiled or executed. It'd be nice to know their pasts a little more. I forever wish for a prequel sequel of some sort. Maybe after the Rebellion or before and it takes us through Robert's Rebellion... sigh. I can dream.
And in the end we'll see patchwork family campfire nostalgia...
Gryff to Rodrik: Remember, when I kicked your ass in the courtyard. I am sorry, bro...
Asher to Gryff: Oy! Remember, when I dated your sister?
Rodrik to both: You mean, OUR sister?
laughter
fadeout, credits... at the very end: "We told you! You're choices DID matter..."
Please, let it end that way
Then Asher would've banged his own sister.
Like that never happend in GoT before.
Not sure about Gwyn, but I think it's quite probable that Asher is Ludd and Elissa's bastard son. It's true that he doesn't look like any of his siblings--they've all got Gregor-shaped faces, with the same eyes and ears (except Ryon, but he's only a kid so his features aren't fully developed yet). Gwyn and Ludd both have broader jawlines and similar noses to Asher. He also seems a little bit crazier than any of the other Forresters we've seen so far.
I like this. Let's call it L+E=A.
Ewww what if Gryff is Lady Forresters son? Probably not. But could you IMAGINE
My eyes must be wonky, Lady Forrester always looked like she was a darker shade of blonde herself. :v
Though I don't think it's unusual at all that Asher has different hair color than his siblings. Perhaps someone in their family, like a grandparent, had the blonde hair gene and Asher just happened to be the only one to inherit it. It happens, I can cite myself as an example. Mother has brown hair + brown eyes, dad has brown hair + blue eyes. I have three younger siblings who resemble my mother a lot, while I had golden-red hair and hazel green eyes. Which were traits my grandparents had.
So Asher can very likely still be a true-blooded Forrester. Genes can be funny. But then, I don't know if genes work in Westeros like they do in the real world, but eh, wanted to put in my two cents. 8D;
Hair genes are similar to that of the real world.