Does anyone else find it harder to empathize with Season 2 Clem?
I find it hard to enjoy season 2 to anywhere near the same extent as season 1 for this very reason. As a protagonist, I just can't empathize with her like I could with Lee. It probably has something to do with the forced personality change. She has become utterly devoid of the strong moral compass and childlike innocence that defined her in season 1. I know that it is necessary that her personality change to some extent, but she has lost what allowed me to identify so perfectly with her in the first place. It doesn't help that she seems to be the most competent, calm, and mature member of the group, which is just ridiculous considering her age and inexperience. Basically, she needed to change to better fit the narrative as a protagonist, but I felt that the change was much too sudden and harsh.
Perhaps her change was unavoidable in a scenario that is so far post-Lee, which is why I have a problem with this setup in general. She suddenly became a different character with nothing leading up to it. If anything, the events taking place now should have happened in season 3-4, with season 2 exploring the impact of Lee's death and how Clementine was able to cope and survive without him. At least then, we could better understand why she underwent such a drastic change without simply discussing theoretically.
Don't get me wrong, this is still my favorite series by a landslide, and I still really enjoy season 2 for what it is, but I find it difficult to consider it a part of the same series as season 1. I guess nothing will ever live up to season 1 for me.
Remember that this is all my opinion, I don't mean to state it as fact.
Comments
Well clem could still keep her innocence and be really nice depending on what you choose. I've seen really harsh and mean options though. Specifically towards Sarah. I also think Sarah is like a clementine 2.0.
But no, clementine needs to grow up and she perfectly fits the setting of season 2. If she was "innocent" and "un trained" like in episode 2 s1 - she'd be dead by episode 1 or wayyyyy earlier.
What about her portrayal as the most competent member of the group? Also, I already acknowledged that a change was necessary. However, she has almost nothing in common with season 1 Clem. I don't ask that she become helpless, just that she regain some of the traits that she had in season 1 which allowed players to feel so greatly for her. I am not bothered by the "mean" options, because they are just options. However, I would also like there to be options to perpetuate her season 1 traits. I don't really feel that I have had the chance to do this yet.
Well, the guys who wrote Clementine(Sean and Jake) don't work at telltale anymore, so that's something. I think Kenny is a good way to make her go back to some of her roots in her personality. Kenny made her laugh and that's probably the first time she's done that since the events at Savannah.
This is what I wanted to say, but I'm too dumb to process it into words, lol. Thanks for making this thread.
Yeah, I feel like reintroducing Kenny was a great step in the right direction. I just hope that we are given an adequate chance to interact with him throughout the season. Perhaps her relationship with Kenny could bring out the season 1 traits that she seems to have buried under a thick layer of toughness. Even the simple reminder of her life with Lee and the old group could soften her at least a little bit. She is obviously suppressing a lot of emotion, she will have to let some of it out eventually.
Well she has "matured". And that's what happens after you see a girl get shot in the head by another girl, A guy get devoured by zombies, YOU almost eating human flesh, a guy with his legs chopped off ; crying for help, your friend get shot by a girl that almost killed you - then instantly watching her getting shot in the stomach, then your only partner getting killed by a gang. And most of all, watching your fatherly figure die - or kill him yourself. Also betrayal, shock, etc... (didn't even mention the stranger and duck lol, or the current events that just took place)
what do YOU think? She has obviously changed and grew rough skin because she maybe doesn't want to experience the emotions she's already been through? And plus, she was little and easily influenced. If she were older, like 16.. she'd probably go emo and suicidal. She changed for the good.
Like others have said, you have to remember what she has been though compared to everyone else. Almost ate, someone, seen people shot in the head, eaten and she even had to kill Lee. We also have no idea what happened with her and Christa during those 16 months.
I really love what they have done with Clem, it's something I've very rarely seen in any other game ever. She started so young and innocent, but now she is much colder and mature. I tried to make every decision based on everything that happened to her in Season 1 and Ep 1 of Season 2. Ithink her character development has been spectacular and I cannot wait for Episode 3!
From a narrative standpoint, how does it make sense to completely change a character without allowing any aspect of that character's personality to carry over? We aren't discussing a real life situation, but a character in a game where it is essential that the player is able to empathize with key characters (not saying we can't empathize with her at all because of this). She hasn't just evolved from season 1, she has become a completely different character. Obviously, Clementine would have hardened from her traumatic experiences, but at the same time, she can't just lose most of her defining traits for the sake of realism. If we are going for complete realism, almost every survivor would be a pseudo-sociopath with few redeeming traits at this point in the apocalypse, most likely including Clementine.
How can you say her character changed without anything leading it up to it? She's spent over a year in the apoclypse, and has lost her parents and every friend she's ever had, and has seen more sick things than most adults would ever see. It's just like Carl in the comics/tv series, the way this world effects the growth and personalities of children is a major theme in this series. It would be unrealistic and dangerous for her to act like an innocent, naive child after everything she's seen and been through.
What parts of her season 2 character do you feel are most strongly reminiscent of season 1? I am not saying they don't exist, but I am having trouble relating her character between the two seasons. Your input would be helpful.
I discussed that in the second paragraph. I don't mean that there was literally nothing leading up to it, just that we didn't experience it. We understand why she has changed, but actually experiencing all of the events that lead to the change would help us (or, at least me) greater understand and appreciate the change. It is one thing to discuss theoretical situations, and another thing to witness them unfold. I was basically describing one of my issues with the setup of season 2.
Its understandable for Clem to have a fond attatchment to Lee...but considering she spent almost 1 and a half years with just Christa makes it weird that Clem thinks more about Lee than Christa
Well Christa didn't seem as friendly and nurturing to Clem as Lee did.
That's fair. But for me personally I enjoy a darker, more mature Clem.
Considering Christa probably resented Clementine for her perceived role in Omid's death, I don't think they got along incredibly well. Lee very warm with her and acted as a father figure for her since the beginning of the apocalypse. Christa was most likely cold and distant, acting more as a mentor than a mother.
In season one, Clementine was hardly even a character at all. She was just a generic "little girl" character and she barely developed beyond that. The first season was about Lee, and Clementine was little more than a plot device. What you call her defining traits ("strong moral compass and childlike innocence") are not defining traits for her character. They are defining traits for children. Generic children. Which is what Clementine was in the first season. Clementine does not have the mindset of a child anymore.
Her personality is largely shaped by the player even from season 1. Depending on how you play Lee depends on how she sees problems being handled. Now in season 2 you are given the option to continue shaping that personality. After everything she's seen and done to survive I wouldn't expect her to be an innocent little girl like in season 1, but you still have the option to be nice to everyone and to be honest with everyone. It's all down to how you play it, and I think they did a great job thus far.
She can be dark and mature while still retaining some of her season 1 traits (at least to some extent). Her current incarnation, to me, doesn't feel like a natural evolution from her season 1 character. Mostly because they have very little, if anything, in common.
^ that's how I percieved their relationship. Definately sensed some coldness on Christa's part. Christa was more like a co-worker Clem had to deal with, Lee was like a parental figure.
I think it works. The side-by-side comparisons of season 1 Clementine to season 2 Clementine are jarring, obviously. But season 2 is supposedly going to be a whole lot darker than season 1. With season 1 being mostly about the walkers and the threat they pose, it was easier to create a character of innocence. With were season 2 is going... I don't know if it'd fit at all. Don't get me wrong, I'd appreciate more moments of tenderness from Clem, but the way she is now works well to compliment the crumble of season 2. It really tugs at your heartstrings even more to not only see the evils of the present and wish for the simplicity of the past, but to see it in Clementine's persona too.
I can't say I agree at all about the "generic little girl thing". It can be said that just about all of these characters are generic in some way. That doesn't mean that they aren't good characters. If Clementine was a typical child character, I would have hated her as I hate the typical portrayal of children in all mediums.
I think it will work both ways.
Honestly I don't think I've been able to "empathize" with clem in either season, but I like the transition that her personality has made. Her soulless look on life kind of gives her a sort of confidence that I like to see her have.
I agree. Based on the current situation and the greater theme of season 2, it seems that she will only become further detached from her former self. I just hope that they find some way to bring back a bit of the emotional believability she had in season 1. It's better than the alternative, one in which she becomes a total Tomb Raider-esque badass. I don't want that for her, and I don't think Telltale does either.
You didn't feel attached to season 1 Clem?
I think Telltale is doing just fine with Clem's characterization this season - meaning, of course, that they're leaving most of her characterization up to us.
Besides, there are still flashes of the lovable little girl from season 1 in S2 Clem. The scene where she helps to decorate the Christmas tree is a good example.
I don't feel as strongly as you do, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel some of it, especially during this episode. I think that for starters, Lee was a blank slate. Sure, he had some defining traits, but you could approach him as you wished and be cool with it because you had no previous exposure to this character.
I like Clem as our protagonist, but Telltale is sure as hell going to need to find creative and believable ways to continue giving the burdens and agency of a protagonist to a child. What I've seen thus far is good enough for me, but I still see some... problems. Don't take me for one who thinks playing a younger protagonist is detrimental, I was and still am all for it. I just think it needs to be carefully approached.
I play my Clem as a husk...who always tames the moral highground not because she wants to but solely because its the right thing to do.
As a change from all the cliche emotioness violent type charavters.
K
Well, it's a good thing to see that nay-sayer threads have started re-emerging. If members want to discuss things some more along those lines of criticism, we should probably resurrect these two threads from back in the period of release for the first episode. Wish I could say what's happened to the more articulate and outspoken members like Maxwell_Horse.
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/54626/pffff-people-saying-the-writing-is-bad-i-disagree
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/54883/clems-ridiculous-strength
Mullet, I've some thoughts to share in private. Since the PM system is kaput, I'll have to send you a direct link:
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/messages/1139
Since new messages do not show up as notifications in the feed, if there are further replies to be made to each other, we can only refresh the page to which that link takes you to be able to check for new replies.
I put empathize(to connect with someone emotionally based on similar experiences) in quotes because I have no personal experience that coincides with hers. Of course I felt attached to her in season 1 but I enjoy clem more when she has the morbid sense of realism that we're all going to die.
I actually don't see her as the most competent, calm, or mature member of the group. That's not to rag on her, it's just that's where the dynamic with characters like other members of the group (especially like Luke and Pete) become more interesting. It seems to me that she has less power within the group accordingly (not to mention being a newcomer). It gives a different and interesting perspective.
8-11 is a pretty big jump, and going from day 1 of the zombie outbreak to three years into would also bring about a lot of changes in terms of her personality. Especially the moral compass (which depends on how you play anyway)
Despite some very rude or evil dialogue choices that Clem can say. It is ultimately up to you how she reacts to people, Telltale most of the time give us a "nice" dialogue option to say as to what would season 1 Clem would say. The most interesting parts about her dialogue are her observations on items when you have control of her walking around. For example the man tied to the tree in episode 1 or the decorated duck in episode 2. These interactions seem optimistic and appreciative of the small things in her depressing life.
I prefer S2 Clem over S1 Clem because before S2 came out I wanted to know if Clementine could let go of some of her morals and survive in the post-apocalyptic world. Which is exactly what she did, If she kept onto her morals in S2 she would've died.
What would she have done, try to [Sad Eyes] Winston? Running away and hiding from her problems? You've also got to realize 16 months with someone like Christa in the wilderness in the cold with barely any food and shelter can really change someone.
Not to mention that Christa believed that it was Clem's fault that Omid died. Clementine must have felt very guilty, beeing responsible for Lee's death (i don't say that she is, but she could very well be thinking like this) and some months later beeing responsible for Omid's death.
I don't get why there was such a big time skip from season 1 - 2, was it just to get Clem a bit older? She was alright at the start of season 2 at the time of Omid's death. We coulda played her from there, her dialogue was fine to me.
The new Clem can be rude and disrespectful at times and she keeps pulling those dirty looks which I can't stand, this isn't even your choice of words but the automatic ones. I don't get her to say much anymore because I know it will be sassy.
This. Nough said.
I like the changes to her character. She's no longer innocent, sure. Who could be after what she lived through in season 1? She's strong and has (or can have, it's how I'm playing her) a moral centre and compassion. The story has become for me about preserving her humanity not her innocence.
I've always felt the way Omid died was a cheap move on Telltale's part. Clementine shouldn't be held accountable for something that was hardwired into the story.
As I said in another thread, the lazy, forced time-jump between seasons 1 and 2 killed any chance we may have had to witness a natural evolution in her character. The harsh, undeveloped change is guaranteed to dissuade some people, such as myself pre-episode 2. Once you understand what caused the change and accept that she could not possibly retain her season 1 personality under reasonable circumstances, it becomes easier to cope. That doesn't mean that every person is going to be pleased with the changes, because the two characters are so drastically different. It doesn't help that she is now the protagonist, meaning that the changes are going to appear even more harsh because part of her new personality is projected onto her by the player. This is unavoidable, and despite the many issues of using a character with a preestablished personality rather than a blank slate like Lee, it has worked fairly well for the most part.
That said, I see your argument directed at literally every comment that takes issue with some of Clementine's changes. Just because someone doesn't like the direction the character is taking, doesn't mean they don't understand why the direction is being taken. You can't expect everyone to instantly empathize with a character simply by telling them to consider the character's theoretical back story. I can guarantee you that most of these complaints would be alleviated if we were to have directly witnessed her changes in an early stage, without having to resort to creating theoretical situations she may have been in that could have realistically changed her character, as we are forced to do now.