Clementine killed out of self defense, though. The theory here is that Kenny might've gotten in a disagreement with Luke that ended with a bullet in his head.
In what world did Kenny kill Luke? Is Kenny a ninja? Is Luke a piece of bread? Where could Kenny kill Luke in such a small amount of time without making any noise, without Luke's body being discovered, and without leaving any evidence on him? Sounds too risky to me.
Clementine killed out of self defense, though. The theory here is that Kenny might've gotten in a disagreement with Luke that ended with a bullet in his head.
I don't think so.
I just think he ran away because he knew there was no way the group was getting out of there. He figured the best cours… moree of action would be to try and save them later instead of being captured.
I'm guessing during the events of EP3 he'll be brewing a plan to try and save the group from Carver. Then he's gonna show up the end of episode and assault the community along with a new group.
Plus, Carver's all like "I told you not to trust him, and now he's left you". He definitely does not like Luke.
I reckon there is something to this theory. I did get a bit of a weird vibe from Luke at a couple of points and recall thinking "what's up with this dude?" He may not be with Carver given how Carver speaks about him, but that may just be a throw-off also
I usually don't agree with these types of things but because they brought Kenny back (which I'm happy about), and they have done a lot of kind of unpredictable stuff, you might be right
Spot on! It's very likely that attracting a herd to overwhelm Carver's community is going to be part of Luke's plan to rescue the people in there. He will probably be in a smaller group, so he needs to be cunning.
It makes a lot of sense. Weaken Carver, and strike him when he's down.
I feel like there's a difference. Here's a couple of examples:
"Clemlee, you're a useful friend to me."
Or
"Clemlee, you're a valua… moreble friend to me."
Here's another one:
"Clementine you're really useful to Luke."
Or
"Clementine you're really valuable to Luke."
See the difference? The first sentence feels like the relationship is pragmatic while the second sentence sounds like the relationship is more emotional. I rather be valued than handy.
While it sounds like a discomforting rug pull, to reveal that the sweet farm boy is in fact a manipulative traitor, I don't see anything that strongly suggests this at all. His absence during the final moments of the episode are not indicative of him betraying the group. Luke is alone, possibly low on ammo, and could probably see carver and his armed cronies. Without knowing if he has any back up, he doesn't have many options, if he goes in all guns blazing, assuming he has bullets left after the lurker attack, he may take out one, or two of them, but he'd be throwing away his life, and possibly one of his friends too. If he gives himself up he's still screwed, seeing as there are hints that Luke is the one who lead the group away in the first place.
Yeah Luke can't be the traitor because of the way he reacts to what you and everyone else says and does, when Pete's body was found Luke calmed nick when he was about to break down like a real friend would, would a REAL friend betray you?
He made a lot of sad faces and attempts to connect with Clementine as a kid, if you choose to kill the little walker he'd tell you about getting the hammer that was stuck in the walkers head out, to which Clem replies with, "I know, remember the Shed?" Luke instantly has a look of guilt on his face, maybe because he wanted so badly to do something about them putting her in there but didn't..
Also remember the part when he said "just like a treehouse" to clementine? That was him trying to connect with her, but then Clementine could say, "I had a treehouse"
Luke: "Well there you go"
Clementine: "... I hated it."
Luke: "Oh.." brief sad face
Which to me means he cares a LOT about Clementine and feels sorry for her, caring in the same sense Lee did, which now that I think about it makes even more sense because when I was Lee in the previous season I LOVED to have Clementine roll with me, I let her goto Crawford and I told her good job when she opened the door to the mansion in Ep. 4... So with that we know Luke is somewhat impulsive because of the story he tells Clementine about roof jumping as kids, that IS impulsive. So it wouldn't be hard to think that he wants Clem to roll with him because.. Come on, it's Clem.
"Luke, as nice as he seems, almost seems TOO nice."
You know what? I'm absolutely glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I like Luke but there has just been something about him that seemed... off. Even in Episode 1. I have to be honest, my mind kept flashing to the idea that he was a pedophile and would start creeping on Clementine when they were alone. I know it's incredibly random but there's just something about the guy that was bugging me. Your idea makes much more sense though.
There's a topic called two foreshadowing possibilities where I give a legitimate explanation as how it could be possible. It's not my number 1 assumption but it's definitely second.
Theres a lot of interesting ideas proposed here for sure, but it definitely leads to some questions in regards to how Luke could even have p… moreulled this off, if Luke was a traitor, he would have to have agreed to do it super recently, it doesn't make sense if Carver knew where they were held up in the woods cabin the entire time and never just got his group to surround it, sure there were people like Nick and Pete to defend it but even then we know Carver has enough brass balls to know he can take the whole group in one go.
No, it really was cold blood. There was a chance (I wouldn't even call it a "good" chance) that Larry was already dead, which means there was also a chance that he wasn't. That's what makes it murder. Because no one knew if he was dead yet. Kenny just killed him because he's a chicken who's willing to murder people as soon as they become inconvenient.
Also, Clem hasn't killed anybody buy walkers in my game. Lee killed the Stranger. And even if she had killed him, Clem and Lee killed in self-defense. There's no way to consider what Kenny did to Larry self-defense because he was in no immediate danger.
Well, no, he "killed" Larry to try and save the group. He had a reason, so it's not really "cold blood", especially when there's a good chan… morece that Larry was already dead. I mean, even if they got him breathing again, a guy his age with heart problems?
There was indeed an immediate danger, and Kenny killed Larry, who was most likely dead(you don't just recover form a massive heart attack after you've stopped breathing, especially if your that old and have heart problems), trying to protect the group. It isn't much different than if Clem kills the Stranger.
I get that you could call him a "murderer", but most people don't even consider Lee a murderer, so why do people say it about Kenny?
No, it really was cold blood. There was a chance (I wouldn't even call it a "good" chance) that Larry was already dead, which means there w… moreas also a chance that he wasn't. That's what makes it murder. Because no one knew if he was dead yet. Kenny just killed him because he's a chicken who's willing to murder people as soon as they become inconvenient.
Also, Clem hasn't killed anybody buy walkers in my game. Lee killed the Stranger. And even if she had killed him, Clem and Lee killed in self-defense. There's no way to consider what Kenny did to Larry self-defense because he was in no immediate danger.
Jeez, there are a lot of cynical people in this thread. What is all this "he's TOO nice" business? Isn't it possible that some people are just nice? Yeesh.
I definitely don't think Luke is a traitor. It doesn't match with either what Kenny said about him or what Carver said about him. I actually could believe that Kenny killed Luke just because Kenny seems to enjoy murdering people. But I don't think that's what happened.
I'm betting that Luke is going to come back in Episode 3 to rescue Clem and the rest of the group. He probably just stayed hidden when he saw Carver's people--like what I told Kenny to do. Because unlike Kenny, Luke isn't a psychopath who's going to risk getting everyone killed by opening fire on people who are holding hostages.
Honestly, I just can't picture Luke being a traitor. Just look at him. Look at his character, People are saying he's too nice, it can be just because Clementine is still a little girl in the group's eyes and they don't know what she has been through. I mean, maybe Kenny purposely ditched Luke because he was jealous of his relationship with Clem? Either way, I'm sure Luke is going to be back soon, as a friendly.
You do realize that Sarah was in the room
You know the girl that Carlos is trying to keep from things like this
Heck she even asked about carver
Luke probably didn't want to freak her out
You know, this actually makes some sense. When Carlos finds out that Carver entered the cabin, Luke says (if you'll excuse my paraphrasing) … more"You're dad's the nicest person I know. That's why isn't going to do anything crazy, or... not nice."
Luke was getting a bit passive aggressive with Carlos, and he seemed to be defending Carver for some reason. We probably need to hear more about their backstories first.
Someone who's on the ground, not moving, who may or may not be dead and may or may not turn is in no way an immediate danger. The key word here being "immediate." An immediate danger would be if he was actually attacking someone. Larry might have been a threat, but he wasn't going to turn instantly. Not a single person in the entire series has turned that quickly. Kenny definitely could have waited a couple of minutes for Lee and Lilly to try helping him and confirm if he was actually dead. But he didn't because that would have been slightly inconvenient for him, and murdering an old man in cold blood was faster.
The situation with the Stranger is different because he was actively trying to kill Lee. That's what an immediate danger looks like. He would have killed Lee if Lee or Clem hadn't killed him first. That's the difference between what Clem/Lee did and what Kenny did.
There was indeed an immediate danger, and Kenny killed Larry, who was most likely dead(you don't just recover form a massive heart attack af… moreter you've stopped breathing, especially if your that old and have heart problems), trying to protect the group. It isn't much different than if Clem kills the Stranger.
I get that you could call him a "murderer", but most people don't even consider Lee a murderer, so why do people say it about Kenny?
I'm a staunch Luke defender so I agree with your points but I must disagree about Kenny liking to kill people. Besides the whole Larry thing where he thought he was genuinely protecting the group. All of his other decisions only suggest a course of action that would lead to death (abandoning Lilly, leaving Omid, raiding the station wagon). He never directly killed anyone besides Larry.
Jeez, there are a lot of cynical people in this thread. What is all this "he's TOO nice" business? Isn't it possible that some people are … morejust nice? Yeesh.
I definitely don't think Luke is a traitor. It doesn't match with either what Kenny said about him or what Carver said about him. I actually could believe that Kenny killed Luke just because Kenny seems to enjoy murdering people. But I don't think that's what happened.
I'm betting that Luke is going to come back in Episode 3 to rescue Clem and the rest of the group. He probably just stayed hidden when he saw Carver's people--like what I told Kenny to do. Because unlike Kenny, Luke isn't a psychopath who's going to risk getting everyone killed by opening fire on people who are holding hostages.
Well, Lee DID kill someone in cold blood, yet no one really considers him a murderer. And it was an immediate danger, people do turn that fast. There was no way he was going to live, and why the fuck should Lee have helped him anyway. It's dumb to help him at all, but there was no way that I was going to try and save the man who tried to kill Lee.
And still, regardless of your opinions, it's still not cold blood. Even viewing it your way, Kenny's intentions were to protect the group. He didn't want to kill Larry. This is the difference.
Someone who's on the ground, not moving, who may or may not be dead and may or may not turn is in no way an immediate danger. The key word … morehere being "immediate." An immediate danger would be if he was actually attacking someone. Larry might have been a threat, but he wasn't going to turn instantly. Not a single person in the entire series has turned that quickly. Kenny definitely could have waited a couple of minutes for Lee and Lilly to try helping him and confirm if he was actually dead. But he didn't because that would have been slightly inconvenient for him, and murdering an old man in cold blood was faster.
The situation with the Stranger is different because he was actively trying to kill Lee. That's what an immediate danger looks like. He would have killed Lee if Lee or Clem hadn't killed him first. That's the difference between what Clem/Lee did and what Kenny did.
Well, Lee DID kill someone in cold blood, yet no one really considers him a murderer.
Well, Lee is definitely a murderer. We know that from the start. But we don't know the details of Lee's first murder. So even with that, we can't say to what extent it was premeditated. Once the game starts, though, it depends on how you decide to play him, but he doesn't have to kill anyone except in self-defense.
And it was an immediate danger, people do turn that fast.
No they don't. Show me one other time in the entire series--the game or the comic book--where someone turned instantaneously. The fastest I think we've ever seen anyone turn is after several minutes at least. Usually it's more like hours. And that's starting from the time that they die. Larry wasn't dead yet.
Put it this way. If there were still courts in the world of The Walking Dead that you could take this case to, there still wouldn't be a single one that would consider what Kenny did self-defense.
There was no way he was going to live, and why the fuck should Lee have helped him anyway. It's dumb to help him at all, but there was no way that I was going to try and save the man who tried to kill Lee.
Because leaving a man to die just because he was mean to you is monstrous? As for the point that "there was no way he was going to live"... well, that's crap. That's just an excuse that Kenny used to rationalize what he did after the fact. But the truth is we don't know that. We do know that Larry had survived similar incidents in the past. We know that the one person in the room who was most familiar with his condition and was actually administering treatment--and therefore was in the best position to judge how he was doing--said repeatedly that he wasn't dead yet. And Larry seemed to be responding to Lee giving him CPR right before Kenny smashed his head in. So we kind of have limited information here, but all of the information that we do have pretty much points to Kenny being a cold-blooded murderer.
And still, regardless of your opinions, it's still not cold blood. Even viewing it your way, Kenny's intentions were to protect the group. He didn't want to kill Larry. This is the difference.
I don't buy it. Kenny says he was protecting the group because he doesn't want to admit that he murdered a man for no good reason. But again, Larry wasn't even conscious. He wasn't an immediate threat to anyone. Kenny easily could have waited a couple of minutes to see if he was really dead. But instead he took the time to think about the situation and decided, "Yeah, I'm totally going to murder this guy." Not because he was actually a danger to anyone, but because waiting to help him would have been mildly inconvenient and just killing him would be quicker. Kenny wasn't thinking about the group. I mean, he ditched them as soon as they found a way out. His motivations here were purely selfish.
Besides, look at Kenny's actions throughout the series. Larry was the most dramatic incident, but there are other times when we see him being just as cold-blooded. Lee's in trouble? Well, he disagreed with me, so I'll leave him to get eaten by walkers. Ben's about to fall? Go ahead and drop the kid because I personally don't like him. Armed men with hostages? Sure, I'll start firing into the room even though I was just told not to. What's the worst that could happen? There's a bit of a pattern with Kenny. Killing people seems to be his go-to solution for just about everything.
Well, Lee DID kill someone in cold blood, yet no one really considers him a murderer. And it was an immediate danger, people do turn that fa… morest. There was no way he was going to live, and why the fuck should Lee have helped him anyway. It's dumb to help him at all, but there was no way that I was going to try and save the man who tried to kill Lee.
And still, regardless of your opinions, it's still not cold blood. Even viewing it your way, Kenny's intentions were to protect the group. He didn't want to kill Larry. This is the difference.
I can't see Luke being a traitor, seriously what was he gonna do? Storm in at 4 people with automatic weapons with his machete? Kenny at least had a rifle, Luke didn't have ranged weapon. He made a smart choice by staying behind because now he can organize help for the group and rescue them in episode 3. He is better than that. "He is too nice" so what? Lee wasn't?
I can't see Luke being a traitor, seriously what was he gonna do? Storm in at 4 people with automatic weapons with his machete? Kenny at lea… morest had a rifle, Luke didn't have ranged weapon. He made a smart choice by staying behind because now he can organize help for the group and rescue them in episode 3. He is better than that. "He is too nice" so what? Lee wasn't?
Ezekiel's friend turns within seconds during 118, yes, people turn that fast, and Larry could have been dead for all they knew. Just because Lilly was hysterically shouting "He's not dead!", doesn't mean that he couldn't have been dead. He wasn't breathing, he easily could have been dead.
And it's not leaving a man because he was mean to you, it's more like leaving a man who is probably dead because he tried to kill you.
And I still say that Kenny was trying to protect the group. Kenny always seemed to be thinking of his friends and family, so in that way he wasn't selfish, and for me at least, didn't hesitate to help Clem(also he sacrificed himself for Ben). Also, he was trying to help with the hostages situation, and when Clem asked him to surrender, he surrendered.
Clearly we've got a massive difference of opinion, but I still say it's a fact that even though you could call it murder if you want to, you can't say it was in coldblood. So...
Well, Lee DID kill someone in cold blood, yet no one really considers him a murderer.
Well, Lee is definitely a murderer. We know t… morehat from the start. But we don't know the details of Lee's first murder. So even with that, we can't say to what extent it was premeditated. Once the game starts, though, it depends on how you decide to play him, but he doesn't have to kill anyone except in self-defense.
And it was an immediate danger, people do turn that fast.
No they don't. Show me one other time in the entire series--the game or the comic book--where someone turned instantaneously. The fastest I think we've ever seen anyone turn is after several minutes at least. Usually it's more like hours. And that's starting from the time that they die. Larry wasn't dead yet.
Put it this way. If there were still courts in the world of The Walking Dead that you could take this case to, there still wouldn't be a single one t… [view original content]
Ezekiel's friend turns within seconds during 118, yes, people turn that fast
Well, I haven't read the latest volume yet, so I'll have to take your word on that. I just know that as of #114, I can't think of anyone in the series turning that quickly. Usually it seems to take closer to an hour or more to happen. But I'll concede that this may have changed in one of the newer comics.
And it's not leaving a man because he was mean to you, it's more like leaving a man who is probably dead because he tried to kill you.
So it's okay to just murder him now because of that? We're going with the "two wrongs make a right" defense? Besides, Kenny tries to leave Lee to be killed by walkers just like Larry did. So why is it "he tried to kill you" when Larry does it, but when Kenny does it, it's okay?
Just because Lilly was hysterically shouting "He's not dead!", doesn't mean that he couldn't have been dead.
Well, she kind of had to shout to be heard over Kenny hysterically shouting that he was dead, didn't she? Yes, Lilly is obviously a biased source. But she was also the only one administering treatment, which means she was the only one in a position to make any sort of judgment as to his condition. Certainly more so than someone who's off to the side panicking. I mean, if you see someone passed out on the ground, whose word do you take about how he's doing? The person who's actively trying to help or the person who's totally flipping his lid and hasn't even looked at the guy?
Saying that "he could have been dead" is an absurdly terrible defense. If Kenny wants to kill a man, the burden of proof has to be on him to show that he really is dead and really is a threat, not the other way around. Kenny's case would have been a lot stronger if he had even taken a minute to so much as check for a pulse. But he didn't even do that. As soon as Larry went down, the very first thing Kenny wanted to do was kill him. And that's part of the pattern I'm talking about. With Kenny, his first solution to any problem is to kill people or leave them behind. He won't even stop to consider a more rational solution.
Kenny always seemed to be thinking of his friends and family, so in that way he wasn't selfish, and for me at least, didn't hesitate to help Clem(also he sacrificed himself for Ben). Also, he was trying to help with the hostages situation, and when Clem asked him to surrender, he surrendered.
Sacrificing himself for Ben was the only time he ever stopped being selfish and did something for someone else, and now he's talking like he regrets that one time he actually did the right thing.
As for Clem, the one time I trusted him to look out for her, he just sat around getting drunk while she wandered out of the house without any supervision. And with the hostages, how was firing into a room full of armed men with hostages in any way helpful. Of course they were going to start killing people after that. And if Kenny were able to think about anyone other than himself, maybe he would have realized that he was endangering every single person in that room by taking that shot. My Clem asked him not to take the shot the first time, when it might have made a difference, and he just totally ignored her. So now Walter is dead, and Clementine is a prisoner. And that's all thanks to Kenny. So no, I don't think he's helping Clem.
Clearly we've got a massive difference of opinion, but I still say it's a fact that even though you could call it murder if you want to, you can't say it was in coldblood.
Well, it's not a fact. I can say it was cold-blooded, and I actually do. But you do raise a fair point that perhaps talking about whether Larry's killing was "cold-blooded" is not the most useful distinction since what people consider to be cold is largely a matter of opinion. I think when people talk about a murder being cold-blooded, they are referring to the degree to which it is calculated or premeditated. As opposed to murders that are committed in the heat of the moment, perhaps during the course of an altercation. But even by that definition, Kenny still comes out looking pretty bad. Because again, this wasn't self-defense. If Larry was lunging toward one of them and Kenny simply reacted to stop him, then you might have a point. But what Kenny did was calculated. That is a fact. It wasn't just an immediate reaction. Kenny had a couple of minutes to consider the situation and weigh the options. And in the end, he decided, "Yup. I'm totally going to murder this guy." That's why it seems cold.
Ezekiel's friend turns within seconds during 118, yes, people turn that fast, and Larry could have been dead for all they knew. Just because… more Lilly was hysterically shouting "He's not dead!", doesn't mean that he couldn't have been dead. He wasn't breathing, he easily could have been dead.
And it's not leaving a man because he was mean to you, it's more like leaving a man who is probably dead because he tried to kill you.
And I still say that Kenny was trying to protect the group. Kenny always seemed to be thinking of his friends and family, so in that way he wasn't selfish, and for me at least, didn't hesitate to help Clem(also he sacrificed himself for Ben). Also, he was trying to help with the hostages situation, and when Clem asked him to surrender, he surrendered.
Clearly we've got a massive difference of opinion, but I still say it's a fact that even though you could call it murder if you want to, you can't say it was in coldblood. So...
#YouHaveANiceDayNow
I'm not even going to read what you said because our opinions are so vastly different(and I haven't gained anything so far by reading what you say), that there's no point in continuing this argument. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm just so tired of this at the moment, and it's clear that no one is gaining anything through this conversation. I shall end it with saying that while I don't agree with your opinion, I can respect it, and I hope that you can respect mine.
Ezekiel's friend turns within seconds during 118, yes, people turn that fast
Well, I haven't read the latest volume yet, so I'll hav… moree to take your word on that. I just know that as of #114, I can't think of anyone in the series turning that quickly. Usually it seems to take closer to an hour or more to happen. But I'll concede that this may have changed in one of the newer comics.
And it's not leaving a man because he was mean to you, it's more like leaving a man who is probably dead because he tried to kill you.
So it's okay to just murder him now because of that? We're going with the "two wrongs make a right" defense? Besides, Kenny tries to leave Lee to be killed by walkers just like Larry did. So why is it "he tried to kill you" when Larry does it, but when Kenny does it, it's okay?
Just because Lilly was hysterically shouting "He's not dead!", doesn't mean that he couldn't have been dead.
Well, s… [view original content]
I'm not even going to read what you said because our opinions are so vastly different(and I haven't gained anything so far by reading what y… moreou say), that there's no point in continuing this argument. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm just so tired of this at the moment, and it's clear that no one is gaining anything through this conversation. I shall end it with saying that while I don't agree with your opinion, I can respect it, and I hope that you can respect mine.
It's not even logical given how Luke behaved so far this season, he's just hiding out and making plans on how he's going to save them, no sense in getting himself captured or others killed too like Kenny y'know? (However I will admit that I wanted to fight back so I sided with Kenny and told him to shoot both times so Alvin's death is on me.. >:( )
In what world did Kenny kill Luke? Is Kenny a ninja? Is Luke a piece of bread? Where could Kenny kill Luke in such a small amount of time wi… morethout making any noise, without Luke's body being discovered, and without leaving any evidence on him? Sounds too risky to me.
I kinda agree when I went to sit with Luke for dinner Kenny looked so mad at me ...., but I really don't like Kenny so I was ok with it he Probally just jealous
Honestly, I just can't picture Luke being a traitor. Just look at him. Look at his character, People are saying he's too nice, it can be jus… moret because Clementine is still a little girl in the group's eyes and they don't know what she has been through. I mean, maybe Kenny purposely ditched Luke because he was jealous of his relationship with Clem? Either way, I'm sure Luke is going to be back soon, as a friendly.
Kenny is more of a 'beat him up' person rather than a 'shoot him' person. Luke was probably unconscious - therefore making no noise meaning that any walkers Carver didn't kill wouldn't be attracted to him.
Clementine killed out of self defense, though. The theory here is that Kenny might've gotten in a disagreement with Luke that ended with a bullet in his head.
Comments
True, but I'm not talking about the theory. for those that say Kenny is a "murderer", he's no more a murder than Lee, or determinately, Clem.
Just pointing that out, it's still an interesting theory though.
This theory doesn't make any sense given how Carver speaks about Luke.
In what world did Kenny kill Luke? Is Kenny a ninja? Is Luke a piece of bread? Where could Kenny kill Luke in such a small amount of time without making any noise, without Luke's body being discovered, and without leaving any evidence on him? Sounds too risky to me.
Maybe he found a way to direct zombies to carvers camp. Would explain the preview and would be a good distraction for an escape
I reckon there is something to this theory. I did get a bit of a weird vibe from Luke at a couple of points and recall thinking "what's up with this dude?" He may not be with Carver given how Carver speaks about him, but that may just be a throw-off also
I usually don't agree with these types of things but because they brought Kenny back (which I'm happy about), and they have done a lot of kind of unpredictable stuff, you might be right
Spot on! It's very likely that attracting a herd to overwhelm Carver's community is going to be part of Luke's plan to rescue the people in there. He will probably be in a smaller group, so he needs to be cunning.
It makes a lot of sense. Weaken Carver, and strike him when he's down.
Who cares dude you know what he meant. This wasnt necessary
While it sounds like a discomforting rug pull, to reveal that the sweet farm boy is in fact a manipulative traitor, I don't see anything that strongly suggests this at all. His absence during the final moments of the episode are not indicative of him betraying the group. Luke is alone, possibly low on ammo, and could probably see carver and his armed cronies. Without knowing if he has any back up, he doesn't have many options, if he goes in all guns blazing, assuming he has bullets left after the lurker attack, he may take out one, or two of them, but he'd be throwing away his life, and possibly one of his friends too. If he gives himself up he's still screwed, seeing as there are hints that Luke is the one who lead the group away in the first place.
Yeah Luke can't be the traitor because of the way he reacts to what you and everyone else says and does, when Pete's body was found Luke calmed nick when he was about to break down like a real friend would, would a REAL friend betray you?
He made a lot of sad faces and attempts to connect with Clementine as a kid, if you choose to kill the little walker he'd tell you about getting the hammer that was stuck in the walkers head out, to which Clem replies with, "I know, remember the Shed?" Luke instantly has a look of guilt on his face, maybe because he wanted so badly to do something about them putting her in there but didn't..
Also remember the part when he said "just like a treehouse" to clementine? That was him trying to connect with her, but then Clementine could say, "I had a treehouse"
Luke: "Well there you go"
Clementine: "... I hated it."
Luke: "Oh.." brief sad face
Which to me means he cares a LOT about Clementine and feels sorry for her, caring in the same sense Lee did, which now that I think about it makes even more sense because when I was Lee in the previous season I LOVED to have Clementine roll with me, I let her goto Crawford and I told her good job when she opened the door to the mansion in Ep. 4... So with that we know Luke is somewhat impulsive because of the story he tells Clementine about roof jumping as kids, that IS impulsive. So it wouldn't be hard to think that he wants Clem to roll with him because.. Come on, it's Clem.
"Luke, as nice as he seems, almost seems TOO nice."
You know what? I'm absolutely glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I like Luke but there has just been something about him that seemed... off. Even in Episode 1. I have to be honest, my mind kept flashing to the idea that he was a pedophile and would start creeping on Clementine when they were alone. I know it's incredibly random but there's just something about the guy that was bugging me. Your idea makes much more sense though.
There's a topic called two foreshadowing possibilities where I give a legitimate explanation as how it could be possible. It's not my number 1 assumption but it's definitely second.
No, it really was cold blood. There was a chance (I wouldn't even call it a "good" chance) that Larry was already dead, which means there was also a chance that he wasn't. That's what makes it murder. Because no one knew if he was dead yet. Kenny just killed him because he's a chicken who's willing to murder people as soon as they become inconvenient.
Also, Clem hasn't killed anybody buy walkers in my game. Lee killed the Stranger. And even if she had killed him, Clem and Lee killed in self-defense. There's no way to consider what Kenny did to Larry self-defense because he was in no immediate danger.
Bonnie told about a group to Carver...
There was indeed an immediate danger, and Kenny killed Larry, who was most likely dead(you don't just recover form a massive heart attack after you've stopped breathing, especially if your that old and have heart problems), trying to protect the group. It isn't much different than if Clem kills the Stranger.
I get that you could call him a "murderer", but most people don't even consider Lee a murderer, so why do people say it about Kenny?
Jeez, there are a lot of cynical people in this thread. What is all this "he's TOO nice" business? Isn't it possible that some people are just nice? Yeesh.
I definitely don't think Luke is a traitor. It doesn't match with either what Kenny said about him or what Carver said about him. I actually could believe that Kenny killed Luke just because Kenny seems to enjoy murdering people. But I don't think that's what happened.
I'm betting that Luke is going to come back in Episode 3 to rescue Clem and the rest of the group. He probably just stayed hidden when he saw Carver's people--like what I told Kenny to do. Because unlike Kenny, Luke isn't a psychopath who's going to risk getting everyone killed by opening fire on people who are holding hostages.
Honestly, I just can't picture Luke being a traitor. Just look at him. Look at his character, People are saying he's too nice, it can be just because Clementine is still a little girl in the group's eyes and they don't know what she has been through. I mean, maybe Kenny purposely ditched Luke because he was jealous of his relationship with Clem? Either way, I'm sure Luke is going to be back soon, as a friendly.
yeah, he should risk getting everyone killed by opening fire on people who are holding hostages.
Agreed.
You do realize that Sarah was in the room
You know the girl that Carlos is trying to keep from things like this
Heck she even asked about carver
Luke probably didn't want to freak her out
I completely and utterly disagree with this theory, I mean this is beyond farfetched thinking
Carver clearly doesnt like Luke, seeing him as a thorn.
Someone who's on the ground, not moving, who may or may not be dead and may or may not turn is in no way an immediate danger. The key word here being "immediate." An immediate danger would be if he was actually attacking someone. Larry might have been a threat, but he wasn't going to turn instantly. Not a single person in the entire series has turned that quickly. Kenny definitely could have waited a couple of minutes for Lee and Lilly to try helping him and confirm if he was actually dead. But he didn't because that would have been slightly inconvenient for him, and murdering an old man in cold blood was faster.
The situation with the Stranger is different because he was actively trying to kill Lee. That's what an immediate danger looks like. He would have killed Lee if Lee or Clem hadn't killed him first. That's the difference between what Clem/Lee did and what Kenny did.
I'm a staunch Luke defender so I agree with your points but I must disagree about Kenny liking to kill people. Besides the whole Larry thing where he thought he was genuinely protecting the group. All of his other decisions only suggest a course of action that would lead to death (abandoning Lilly, leaving Omid, raiding the station wagon). He never directly killed anyone besides Larry.
Well, Lee DID kill someone in cold blood, yet no one really considers him a murderer. And it was an immediate danger, people do turn that fast. There was no way he was going to live, and why the fuck should Lee have helped him anyway. It's dumb to help him at all, but there was no way that I was going to try and save the man who tried to kill Lee.
And still, regardless of your opinions, it's still not cold blood. Even viewing it your way, Kenny's intentions were to protect the group. He didn't want to kill Larry. This is the difference.
he is way too nice dats for sure
Lee was way too nice to Clem, too...
Well, Lee is definitely a murderer. We know that from the start. But we don't know the details of Lee's first murder. So even with that, we can't say to what extent it was premeditated. Once the game starts, though, it depends on how you decide to play him, but he doesn't have to kill anyone except in self-defense.
No they don't. Show me one other time in the entire series--the game or the comic book--where someone turned instantaneously. The fastest I think we've ever seen anyone turn is after several minutes at least. Usually it's more like hours. And that's starting from the time that they die. Larry wasn't dead yet.
Put it this way. If there were still courts in the world of The Walking Dead that you could take this case to, there still wouldn't be a single one that would consider what Kenny did self-defense.
Because leaving a man to die just because he was mean to you is monstrous? As for the point that "there was no way he was going to live"... well, that's crap. That's just an excuse that Kenny used to rationalize what he did after the fact. But the truth is we don't know that. We do know that Larry had survived similar incidents in the past. We know that the one person in the room who was most familiar with his condition and was actually administering treatment--and therefore was in the best position to judge how he was doing--said repeatedly that he wasn't dead yet. And Larry seemed to be responding to Lee giving him CPR right before Kenny smashed his head in. So we kind of have limited information here, but all of the information that we do have pretty much points to Kenny being a cold-blooded murderer.
I don't buy it. Kenny says he was protecting the group because he doesn't want to admit that he murdered a man for no good reason. But again, Larry wasn't even conscious. He wasn't an immediate threat to anyone. Kenny easily could have waited a couple of minutes to see if he was really dead. But instead he took the time to think about the situation and decided, "Yeah, I'm totally going to murder this guy." Not because he was actually a danger to anyone, but because waiting to help him would have been mildly inconvenient and just killing him would be quicker. Kenny wasn't thinking about the group. I mean, he ditched them as soon as they found a way out. His motivations here were purely selfish.
Besides, look at Kenny's actions throughout the series. Larry was the most dramatic incident, but there are other times when we see him being just as cold-blooded. Lee's in trouble? Well, he disagreed with me, so I'll leave him to get eaten by walkers. Ben's about to fall? Go ahead and drop the kid because I personally don't like him. Armed men with hostages? Sure, I'll start firing into the room even though I was just told not to. What's the worst that could happen? There's a bit of a pattern with Kenny. Killing people seems to be his go-to solution for just about everything.
I can't see Luke being a traitor, seriously what was he gonna do? Storm in at 4 people with automatic weapons with his machete? Kenny at least had a rifle, Luke didn't have ranged weapon. He made a smart choice by staying behind because now he can organize help for the group and rescue them in episode 3. He is better than that. "He is too nice" so what? Lee wasn't?
Luke is going to be a bad ass, or die trying especially since Clementine is also captured.
Luke being the traitor feels like a cheap attempt to make a shocking twist, there's no concrete evidence nor any foreshadowing that he's evil.
Noo, please, don't... It sounds logical but i don't want to believe on this...
no guyz luke isn't like that, he'll come for the rescue
Ezekiel's friend turns within seconds during 118, yes, people turn that fast, and Larry could have been dead for all they knew. Just because Lilly was hysterically shouting "He's not dead!", doesn't mean that he couldn't have been dead. He wasn't breathing, he easily could have been dead.
And it's not leaving a man because he was mean to you, it's more like leaving a man who is probably dead because he tried to kill you.
And I still say that Kenny was trying to protect the group. Kenny always seemed to be thinking of his friends and family, so in that way he wasn't selfish, and for me at least, didn't hesitate to help Clem(also he sacrificed himself for Ben). Also, he was trying to help with the hostages situation, and when Clem asked him to surrender, he surrendered.
Clearly we've got a massive difference of opinion, but I still say it's a fact that even though you could call it murder if you want to, you can't say it was in coldblood. So...
#YouHaveANiceDayNow
Well, I haven't read the latest volume yet, so I'll have to take your word on that. I just know that as of #114, I can't think of anyone in the series turning that quickly. Usually it seems to take closer to an hour or more to happen. But I'll concede that this may have changed in one of the newer comics.
So it's okay to just murder him now because of that? We're going with the "two wrongs make a right" defense? Besides, Kenny tries to leave Lee to be killed by walkers just like Larry did. So why is it "he tried to kill you" when Larry does it, but when Kenny does it, it's okay?
Well, she kind of had to shout to be heard over Kenny hysterically shouting that he was dead, didn't she? Yes, Lilly is obviously a biased source. But she was also the only one administering treatment, which means she was the only one in a position to make any sort of judgment as to his condition. Certainly more so than someone who's off to the side panicking. I mean, if you see someone passed out on the ground, whose word do you take about how he's doing? The person who's actively trying to help or the person who's totally flipping his lid and hasn't even looked at the guy?
Saying that "he could have been dead" is an absurdly terrible defense. If Kenny wants to kill a man, the burden of proof has to be on him to show that he really is dead and really is a threat, not the other way around. Kenny's case would have been a lot stronger if he had even taken a minute to so much as check for a pulse. But he didn't even do that. As soon as Larry went down, the very first thing Kenny wanted to do was kill him. And that's part of the pattern I'm talking about. With Kenny, his first solution to any problem is to kill people or leave them behind. He won't even stop to consider a more rational solution.
Sacrificing himself for Ben was the only time he ever stopped being selfish and did something for someone else, and now he's talking like he regrets that one time he actually did the right thing.
As for Clem, the one time I trusted him to look out for her, he just sat around getting drunk while she wandered out of the house without any supervision. And with the hostages, how was firing into a room full of armed men with hostages in any way helpful. Of course they were going to start killing people after that. And if Kenny were able to think about anyone other than himself, maybe he would have realized that he was endangering every single person in that room by taking that shot. My Clem asked him not to take the shot the first time, when it might have made a difference, and he just totally ignored her. So now Walter is dead, and Clementine is a prisoner. And that's all thanks to Kenny. So no, I don't think he's helping Clem.
Well, it's not a fact. I can say it was cold-blooded, and I actually do. But you do raise a fair point that perhaps talking about whether Larry's killing was "cold-blooded" is not the most useful distinction since what people consider to be cold is largely a matter of opinion. I think when people talk about a murder being cold-blooded, they are referring to the degree to which it is calculated or premeditated. As opposed to murders that are committed in the heat of the moment, perhaps during the course of an altercation. But even by that definition, Kenny still comes out looking pretty bad. Because again, this wasn't self-defense. If Larry was lunging toward one of them and Kenny simply reacted to stop him, then you might have a point. But what Kenny did was calculated. That is a fact. It wasn't just an immediate reaction. Kenny had a couple of minutes to consider the situation and weigh the options. And in the end, he decided, "Yup. I'm totally going to murder this guy." That's why it seems cold.
I'm not even going to read what you said because our opinions are so vastly different(and I haven't gained anything so far by reading what you say), that there's no point in continuing this argument. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm just so tired of this at the moment, and it's clear that no one is gaining anything through this conversation. I shall end it with saying that while I don't agree with your opinion, I can respect it, and I hope that you can respect mine.
Fair enough, I suppose. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
It's not even logical given how Luke behaved so far this season, he's just hiding out and making plans on how he's going to save them, no sense in getting himself captured or others killed too like Kenny y'know? (However I will admit that I wanted to fight back so I sided with Kenny and told him to shoot both times so Alvin's death is on me.. >:( )
Ya but people were making a bunch of noise killing walkers it would be the perfect time
I kinda agree when I went to sit with Luke for dinner Kenny looked so mad at me ...., but I really don't like Kenny so I was ok with it he Probally just jealous
Kenny is more of a 'beat him up' person rather than a 'shoot him' person. Luke was probably unconscious - therefore making no noise meaning that any walkers Carver didn't kill wouldn't be attracted to him.