Gripes with Season 2
I have been very impressed with Season 2 so far. TellTale was not expecting it to become such a big game, but it totally blew away everyone's expectations and became quite the phenomenon. How they have changed the perspective to that of Clementine and handled this transition was done fairly well, and it's been a blast to play as her. However, I have noticed some really jarring aspects of Season 2 that have disrupted my immersion and rubbed me the wrong way.
One of the biggest issues is the enormous timeskip in S2E1. I can totally understand that they wanted to move into the future to make Clementine much older and more experienced, but giving us absolutely nothing to indicate her experiences and relationships except for the scene where Omid dies and the campsite scene with Christa leaves us only with inferences. All we can do is infer; Christa and Omid were the ones in the field, and things went all right until Omid died. Then, from the grim and bleak campsite scene, we can only imply that the years have been very hard - Clem and Christa have been sticking to the wilderness, Christa has lost her cheer entirely in the absence of Omid, and they have met some friendly faces since they had to have heard about Wellington from someone. While this gets the main message across, it gives us nothing substantive and leaves more inquisitive players with a pretty short stick.
The next issue is how short the episodes have felt, which is directly caused by the fact that Season 2 has not given us much time at all to control Clem directly (i.e., beyond conversations) or get to know the characters. I can understand that the hectic situations of S2E2 (locked in the shed, only let inside late at night, and then taken to the stream early in the morning) and S2E2 (fleeing to escape Carver) make this a little difficult, and that the cabin group is probably really wary to talk about their past (they clearly have something to hide with regards to Carver or don't want to talk about it), but it just feels too brief. Another 5-day timeskip happens in S2E2 while they are on the road, and we get no chance of interacting with the cabin group or any characterization. Before we know it, 2 members of the cabin group might possibly be dead at the end of the episode (Alvin and Nick being determinant deaths in the episode).
Let's put this into perspective:
Number of times you were able to walk freely in S1E1:
- Escaping the patrol car (short)
- Walking inside and outside Clem's house (medium length with most interactions being with objects)
- Wandering around the farm (long with several options to chat with characters and learn about them)
- Wandering around the pharmacy (very long since you can do this and talk to every character before and after the motor inn, as well as the one-on-one time with Clem in the backroom)
- Motor Inn (medium, with some peril and then a major decision with Irene)
- Defending the motor inn (medium-length peril scene)
Number of times you were able to walk freely in S2E1:
- Wandered through the forest (long, but mostly atmospheric while encountering no characters or objects)
- The campsite and the dog (like above, but able to see objects and interact with the dog)
- The shed and sneaking into the house (long and some sneaking/peril, but only 2 chances of direct conversation with Sarah and/or Alvin, and 2 chances of listening in on everyone in the kitchen and then Rebecca in the bathroom)
- Investigating the bodies at the end of the episode.
You do get the long dialogue sequence at the dinner table with Luke, Nick, and so on, so I'll give it that. However,
Number of times you were able to walk freely in episode 2:
- A few steps in the whiskey shack/van.
- A few steps in the cabin prior to Carver's forced entry.
- A few steps after the bridge part.
- A few steps in that asian guys little house.
- A few steps in the ski lodge.
The only time you get to have substantive dialogue in this episode is with Carver and then Kenny.
Season 1 episode 2:
- Get to explore the entire motor inn after bringing back the teacher, get to talk to everyone.
- Get to explore the cannibal farm, even able to build a swing set.
- Get to explore the cannibal farm yet again, talk to all your people, get to push Clem on the swing.
- Get to explore Jolene's encampment.
- Get to explore the farm yet again when returning, talking to everyone.
- Get to go into the Cow barn poke around in it for a bit.
- Get to explore the cannibal house very briefly and discover Mark.
- Get to walk around in the meat locker where Larry dies.
I imagine that S2E3 will solve some of my issues, with Carver's camp will be an actual hubworld and will give a better chance for Clem to walk around, explore, and interact with other characters. However, I am afraid that TellTale will sacrifice exploration so it can move the story along.
Comments
I'd much rather cut loose a hubworld than story branches. They said that S2 will have more branching stories, but I assume that to accomplish that, they have to cut off things in the game that are perishable.
I do not see how a hubworld and more chances to have dialogue with other characters disallows branching storylines. I guess I could understand it in the sense that they are putting more of their resources into branching the story than developing the characters and writing dialogue, but I don't know if it is that simple.
I'm sure it's not, but it's a guess. If I had to choose between one or the other, I think replayablity beats exploration.
YUSS! I really can't stretch this point enough. Use your cast and protagonist to the benefit of the episode and the nice bonus of optionally extending the episode's length! It's win-win as far as I see it. Episode 2 was short of perfect for me because of the lack of "optional" interaction with the group. We got a nice scene with Sarah at the beginning, why can't we check on her later to see how she's doing?
A lot of growth and development for the group and for Clementine herself -of who some people are still having trouble empathizing with- can be done with little segments like that. Starved for Help's intro, or sections from Long Road Ahead wouldn't have been as effective without our interactions with the characters.
To anyone reading, I'd encourage you to discuss what you think about the way they handle these things. You like things or not the way they are? Why? What would you change? I think the best favor we can do to the season and to us, the players, is to point out what we like and what we don't so the devs take notice of it. Criticizing something you love doesn't mean you don't like it anymore.
I've loved Season 2 so far, but I agree, they've not let us interact nearly as much. They've taken open-ended character interaction and stuffed most of it into the cutscenes and action. While I think the dialogue and characters are still great, we're missing tons of interaction. Remember in Season 1 how you had to collect supplies from the pharmacy in Episode 1? Or Episode 2, how you were tasked with distracting the St. Johns? We don't get scenes like that any more. I see where Telltale was going with this; Clementine isn't Lee. She has no authority, no one thinks her as capable as an adult, and in reality, she can't have much sway over decisions. She's a child surrounded by self-sufficient adults. I totally am fine with this, but I hope in Episode 3 we do get far more scene and open-form character interaction. The episodes haven't been bad. per-se, but a little more non-cutscene interaction would be great, and within the context that, indeed, Clementine doesn't carry the same authority or bravado as an adult.
I completely agree with you. As much as I'm loving this amazing season is so far, the episodes are feeling way too short! It's pretty much the only issue I have with it. I hope this pattern doesn't continue. Some players do need more time to get to know the new characters, and even though I myself get where they're coming from, I understand how others may not be able to empathize with them yet. A few longer hubs here and there wouldn't hurt at all. And you're right that criticizing a product, as long as it doesn't turn into a rage, is good. Consumer's output and feedback on what they want has the potential to help the developers immensely.
I remember reading in an interview before the premiere, Telltale mentioned something along the lines that Season Two would consist of what people liked most of the first. It's very plausible that maybe they assumed certain things wrong, so it's a good idea to let them know on what we think about it.
As an added point: I talk to lots of people who disagree with me and feel that all the dialogue points in the early parts of Season 1 were fluff and didn't add anything of import. Some people just don't care much for it. However, what they fail to realize is that - for the most part - all of these conversations are optional. The only parts where you MUST speak to everyone in order to progress the storyline is in the pharmacy (you have to talk to people to get Glenn to call for help over the walkie-talkie) and the beginning on episode 2 (you have to talk to people until Katjaa calls Kenny and Lee over before getting attacked). In every other instance, you have a very clear objective that doesn't require you to poke around and talk to people.
Fair enough. I can see how having certain diverging story branches and characters make putting these kind of things problematic, but I still feel we need some more of it. Hell, even after two episodes, the cabin survivors remain relative strangers to Clem, and also to us. I think it is done partly intentionally because of the "trust" theme this season, but wouldn't a revelation about why we should or shouldn't trust these people have much more impact after more or less getting to know one side of them more in-depth?
I think that they should let us interact with Sarah a bit more. Cmon she said that clem is her friend , why doesn't she talk to her?
Maybe she cannot alter the adults' perspective as a fellow adult can, but a child's opinion and worldview is far from weak. I loved one particular line this last episode where Clem can give Rebecca hope for her baby's future. You can say that you think it's possible to bring a baby into the Nihilistic wet-dream that TWD's universe is. She asks her "How can you know?" To which Clem responds "Well I'm still here."
I'll say once more that, if added, those "hub" moments can and must not be like Lee's, but can be so much richer because of who we are experiencing them as.
I really do want a scene like on the farm where you have a couple minutes to breathe and just chat with people, both in this gae and in the Wolf Among Us.
That being said, Episode 2 felt more than long enough for me. There were at least a couple instances where I thought "This is where the episode ends..." but then it kept going.
I think that having hubworld interactions which slow the pace is extremely important from a visual storytelling perspective. It slows things down, yes, but it also calms them down and puts you off your guard. You wouldn't have action every moment of the zombie apocalypse, and it really does affect how you respond to situations. If action is always happening, you're going to be in that mode of thinking - your heart is pumping, you might get a little adrenaline, and these all change how you're going to think and react to a situation.
If you're calm and then suddenly faced with a violent situation, it feels very different that if you just had an action event. Having downtime changes the effect of a given situation. In Episodes 1 and 2, the actions scenes felt more intense because they weren't everywhere. By Episode 5, you're in a much more aggressive and tense atmosphere, which changes how you do things drastically.
Maybe while in Carver's community? As the OP says, it would thematically fit. We need to see for ourselves what the place is like, and also to catch up with the characters, who I think would have a lot to say after getting captured by their nemesis.
I really wish more substantive discussions like this would get more attention than "did anyone else LOL when"....
I guess certain titles attract more people.
Don't let this discussion die, man. I can't think of any other way for Telltale to notice these sorts of things.
I wish I had more stuff to say, but for the moment I can do nothing but give this thread a bump.
I wish my eyes could handle the stress of reading all of the op on such a small screen.
It's too bad. So far all the criticism in this discussion is going fairly smooth in a constructive manner without any extreme flame wars, and that's rare. Of course there will always be disagreements, but all points are valid in different perspectives.
Yikes, I'm beginning to sound like Walter.
Anyways, hopefully this thread will get more attention soon. I want Telltale to see it and take in some of the feedback. Which in our case would benefit everyone.
Hold control and either scroll up with a mouse wheel or hit your + sign, it will increase text size.
Reading on an old smart phone. Zoomed out the words are small zoomed in they are hazy. Either one is rough on the eyes after a while
I hate web browsing on a phone.
What were all those ebay links?
Linked a monitor before I saw you were browsing on a phone.
100% agreed on the hubworld part. Sadly, Telltale have took this linear approach though since No Time Left. Even with The Wolf Among Us. Optional conversations and exploration in mini-hubs greatly increase the playtime of one of their episodes. I don't think they even realise how important they are and have only decided to take a cinematic approach now because their most critically acclaimed episode hit big-time going with that style.
Worst part is, the Lodge would've been the perfect place to do something like this and they still didn't do it too well. Other then that though, A House Divided was a great episode through and through. The best episode they've made since finishing Season One in my opinion. And yes, that includes The Wolf Among Us.
Hopefully they'll still think about making hubs, but now with us hitting the half-way point of the Season in the coming months I don't see it being likely.
And on the timeskip... I would agree though I think they're may have been a good reason on having one. Primarily since we're now with another character who is pregnant. Also, when Clementine said "Just how Christa showed me" when stitching up her arm I had some unpleasant thoughts, pretty sure the timeskip will have meant something soon anyway though, don't worry. We're only two fifths of the way in.
I'll just quote a great man and say: "You hold on to that hope, it's the one thing none of this can take away."
I think everyone needs to realize that the quick pace and lack of the hub parts made complete sense in the context of the final episode last season. It was aptly named: No Time Left. The ending needed to be more or less quick because of what had gone down the previous episode. We were dying, and needed to find Clem or die trying.
Despite being a great finale, it was not my favorite episode because of it missing small things that were present in the rest of the episodes.
It did make sense in No Time Left, I actually wasn't trying to argue on that part at all. Heck I'd even make the argument that the lack of hub suited All That Remains too (since we were a stranger to the group for a majority of the episode). But A House Divided is the first one that got me worried with the lack of hub interactions.
I'm not saying it won't happen mind you, but since TWAU is also following the same path I'm not going to hold my breath, hope I'm wrong though. Optional conversations and mini-puzzles (like the one on the train) are some of the few adventure game elements that Telltale really have left in their episodes. Which I never thought I'd say since they started as developers solely for the genre.
By "everyone" I really meant "Telltale", and that while it worked there, it isn't necessarily how every episode since then should be like. I just thought that sounded a little bit too arrogant.
indeed, setting the story aside, the game feels very restrictive now. Theyve removed the ability to walk to people and talk to them on your own. It happens a few times in S2E2, BUT theyre all railroad conversations, ie. they happen once and then theyre no longer available. In S1, there were plenty of opportunities to approach people, then select from several choices what conversation you want to engage in. There used to be an "Exit" option to engaging characters, but thats gone now. Im not saying I loved using Exit, but it just shows you have no freedom when talknig to people
I am very happy that people agree. I hope TT reads this and tries to consolidate pace with content.
Damn, we almost had something here. Now Telltale will forget about us because of that dislike. WHY, DOWNVOTER, WHYYY?
I really hope Telltale is listening to the criticism on this one, as its at the heart of why I found Season 2 Episode 1 to be weak compared to other episodes.
The hubs from Season 1 weren't just a nifty extra. They were one of the key reasons people became so invested in characters like Kenny and Lilly and Clementine and Carley and on and on. We had the chance to interact with the Season 1 characters and get to know them better without the plot driving everything relentlessly onward.
I'm not sure why they chose to do away with them, but my hope is that it was in a misguided attempt to be 'cinematic' rather than just because they don't want to spend the time and money on giving the player freedom. The former is a creative decision which can easily be reversed if Telltale realizes people are responding poorly to it. The latter is a business decision which means they might not give a damn what we think on the subject so long as the game is selling.
I'd say my problem with the episode would not only be the lack of exploration, but just the bipolar-ness of the characters. My Clem blackmailed Rebecca about the baby, yet she tries to get her forgiveness later on. Then acts all buddy-buddy...
Carlos doesn't like or trust Clem at first, and then suddenly treats her like his daughter, trying to keep her out of danger almost as much as Sarah, when five days ago it seemed like he wanted her to just die from the dog bite. A doctor should be able to tell a dog bite from a human/walker bite, so either Carlos isn't actually a doctor(I wouldn't be surprised anymore...) or he is just a douche.
Alvin acts as if he wouldn't hurt a fly, and talks about how Nick was a murderer for killing Matthew, and yet apparently killed his friend in cold-blood?
Sarah starts panicking when she learns something is going on with the others(you don't have to tell her it is her dad, or that Pete is dead, or whatnot), and yet she seems to take it pretty fine when her father is threatened to be killed and is beaten down in front of her(Ben would have probably fainted or vomited).
Walter talks about how people can work out problems if they just use their heads, yet somehow Walter can just sit back and watch Nick get torn apart by walkers. He even trusted a girl(Bonnie), whom he had no association with previously, with enough food to feed the entire group for weeks! I mean, I understand if you are pissed at the guy, but a teacher who seems to be so optimistic would let someone die? I didn't hear the quote, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
Kenny... well he's actually always had his moments of temper and depression out of nowhere, and I have little problem with that since it is (usually) correct with the context.
And why is everyone just leaving their guns around? Some of them basically with full ammo? I mean, Carlos dropped his rifle, and Clem picks it up later, and then leaves it again(and the knife). Walter just throws away Matthew's survival knife like it's a used toothpick. Sarah somehow gets her hands on a pistol(which almost definitely stayed at the cabin). I mean, with that many weapons, you are bound to find ammunition for them. Besides, if nothing else, they make a nice substitution for a bat or hammer. The group leaves them around like kids do toys xD
The group lets Clemmy, an 11 year-old girl, be the one to shut down the turbine... if that problem was any more complicated, they would all be dead.
I know some of this isn't too strong of arguments, but still... It pisses me off that some characters just put down their defenses after 5 days to a girl that DEFINITELY shows she could kill them pretty easily. They didn't know if she was with Carver, or if she was a bandit, or crazy, cannibal, anything, and they let her in and trust her to do some of the most important things. Why does the girl check a station alone? Or turn off a turbine? Or be the spotter? Clear a bridge? As much as I loved those scenes, and I know that if it was the old group she might have done this stuff anyway, but to be the newcomer, and someone so young? Sketchy. Sorry if I'm ranting guys.
Yeah, I still find Rebecca and Carlos' attitude shifts a bit sudden, but don't mind them too much. I am of the mind that scenes like the ones we are proposing, where you interact with them more thoroughly, would be the justification needed for their change of heart.
The tamest of men can unleash the beast within when what's most important to them is threatened. We don't exactly know what went down, so we can't judge either way.
She was screaming on top of her lungs, begging Carver not to hurt her dad!
Your group just shattered a bit of his trust in humanity, and killed (presumably) his lover. That shit is strong, man. i don't blame Walt in the scenarios where Nick dies, I'd also be pissed even if I was a saint.
Good ol' Kenny.
Batteries. Nuff' said :P I still see this as a "batteries" moment, guys, even after hearing the possible explanations.
I think you respond to him well, but he makes a great point about the characterization problems.
Ehh... Alvin though? You never see him use a gun, or really attacking anyone. He'd rather Clem go into the station by herself. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy a lot, but I can't believe he'd just murder someone. Either his friend was a terrible person, or Carver is an even better liar than he presented in the beginning of the episode.
Sarah basically lost it for a bit there, and hugged her knees over someone being in danger, and hyperventilates over a stranger... I guess I assumed that, like what her father said, she'd kinda shut down, or even lose it a bit, but to be screaming was a pretty normal thing IMO, but it was probably the worst thing she's seen so far.
Then Walter is all talk, eh? And didn't think about Matthew being close to him in that way... thought he was just a student. Still, he didn't even get to really know what went down to kill Matthew, because he wasn't there, so he really can't judge Nick. Even I, who thought Nick made a really stupid decision right there, couldn't hold him against it because the guy really could have been lying. I mean, a guy that would walk down a narrow bridge, stepping in someone's way like that... Tells you he was pretty confident of himself.
Yeah, Kenny is awesome, and I get it is part of his character. I've gotten to know him, so I understand his 'moods'.
... More like Lee's endless pocket space xD They make it sound all complicated too, and I was so worried, but... all you needed was a key. Luck, it saves lives.
I still think the reactions of Walt and Alvin are understandable. Hell, we don't know what happened with this George. About Walt, remember he still holds onto his values if you tell him that despite possibly being a screw-up, Nick is a good person. You are forgetting the possible scenario where Walter saves Nick.
I still agree with Carlos and Rebecca, though. I wrote in another thread that:
And that Rebecca somewhat justifies herself, but that we lack that kind of interaction with Carlos, who either is doubtful about us or becomes seemingly protective of Clementine. I hoped I'd get to know the grumpy bastard a little better this episode. Or, at least some of his motives.
I can understand making nice with Rebecca. She is angry because she fears you are with Carver - and she has the most to fear from that guy. Her anger towards you was due to her fear that you're with Carver. When she realized it was wrong - and then that you were the only reason Carver didn't catch them - she changed her tune.
With Carlos, he only seems to trust you with Sarah because he has nothing else to do - besides leave Sarah alone and in great danger. At the very least, Carlos knows you aren't with Carver. I think the real reason they were so suspicious of you was their fear of Carver, not the bite. After you escaped the shed, sneaked into their house, befriended their weakest link (Sarah), treated your own wounds, and then killed a zombie twice your size, you pretty much proved your story. If you were with Carver, you would have escaped the shed and Carver's crew would have showed up.
So, I can indirectly infer why they trust you aren't with Carver. As for liking you, it probably directly stems from the fact that Clem has had it a lot worse off and is far more independent. They recognize that you're probably better at surviving outside their cozy little cabin then all of them combined - kind of like what happened when Rick and his group arrived at Alexandria.
However, this is all stuff I have to infer on my own and is a matter of speculation.
I find S2's overall plot a lot more interesting than S1 (this isn't to say I didn't love S1) but I have to agree with most of what you said. Episode 2 could have easily been 30 minutes longer without even changing the overarching plot at all. I was fine with Episode 1 being shorter and not really having much pause - that was necessary due to its nature. But episode 2 was almost as short!
I'm totally okay with the initial 16 month time skip. It was needed to age Clementine to the point where the way she acts is more believable. It was also needed to bring things up to speed with 400 days.
The 5 day time skip, however, was just BAD. Fade to black, "5 days later," fade in. Did nothing at all happen during that time? Even if it was an entirely uneventful trek, why not toss a hub segment in there and maybe a short problem solving puzzle? That alone would have added significant time to the length of the episode and satiated a lot of peoples desire for those moments of downtime. Telltale really took the easy way out there, and it just felt lazy.
Again I love season 2, I love everything about where the stories going and I'm certainly not an adventure game purist - I actually hated most of the puzzles and such we had to do in S1. But they and the hub segments did a great job of making the game feel longer and more involved even if in the grand scheme of things these don't add to the story.
I reckon the next episode has a strong chance of more hub activity. Were entering a new community hence new people to meet. We know that there is certainly some, probably substantial interaction with Carver and that we talk to Bonnie and Kenny. That implies a bit of free-roaming and talking to people.
Get to go into the Cow and poke around in it.
"Okay I'll poke around a little bit."
HA, I didn't even notice that... I meant "the barn."