Except what happened within that time frame was very different. Kenny went through a lot of shit which changed his perspective on Ben. If he hadn't been through any of that (as opposed to Lilly, who did nothing between the killing and leaving), he'd have killed the kid in a second. Compare what happened on The Walking Dead last night with Tyreese and Carol.
As it stands, he let the kid turn in order to save himself. Self preservation and whatever, sure, but Kenny had a chance to come back up with Lee, but instead locked himself out, contemplated killing Ben to save him, and instead left him and ran off.
How far can we say Kenny actually forgave Ben? Certainly not enough to save him from zombificaiton.
Also, Kenny never once showed remorse for killing Larry, and that's more important to bring up since he had so much more time to express guilt for it.
Hold on a second, I just realized this. Lilly killed Carley/Doug at night, and if they took her with, it was the next day when she stole the… more RV. It was dawn when Kenny found out that Ben was at fault for the bandit attack. By the time Kenny forgave Ben, it wasn't even the next day. So Kenny forgave Ben within about the same time period that Lilly had from murdering Doug/Carley to stealing the RV.
So on top of your argument already being invalid, it is now thus further invalidated by this.
I think the best way to contrast the two characters (since again, they are so similar) is to look at how they react to Lee killing or not killing the woman in Macon running from walkers. Lilly gets upset if you leave the woman to be ripped to shreds and Kenny gets on your ass if you put her out of her misery.
Kenny's choice is the most pragmatic, sure, but Lilly's is the most humane.
I didn't save Doug in any of my playthroughs ^^; But it wouldn't make any difference like Zyphon said she still killed an innocent member of… more the group so any trust I might have had has been lost.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing her again... it just wouldn't be on friendly terms :P
Except what happened within that time frame was very different. Kenny went through a lot of shit which changed his perspective on Ben. If he… more hadn't been through any of that (as opposed to Lilly, who did nothing between the killing and leaving), he'd have killed the kid in a second. Compare what happened on The Walking Dead last night with Tyreese and Carol.
As it stands, he let the kid turn in order to save himself. Self preservation and whatever, sure, but Kenny had a chance to come back up with Lee, but instead locked himself out, contemplated killing Ben to save him, and instead left him and ran off.
How far can we say Kenny actually forgave Ben? Certainly not enough to save him from zombificaiton.
Also, Kenny never once showed remorse for killing Larry, and that's more important to bring up since he had so much more time to express guilt for it.
Clemmy once talked about having her locked up forever or something like that if you made certain conditions and talked to her by the train in ep3 (It's been so long, I can't remember exactly what she says, but she doesn't like Lilly. Not that she hates her either.)
I think Clementine would be cold and sarcastic to her(especially since my Clem used Carley as a fake name when talking to Carver). Wouldn't trust her, wouldn't want to be around her, might try to get her to leave, etc. So... no, she would not hug Lilly.
Thanks. It bugs me that people who have never not sided with Kenny don't understand why people like Lilly. I mean, if you're nice to Lilly, Kenny dislikes you, and vice versa. They both have polarizing kills of innocent people in the group. List goes on and on. They're supposed to be similar, and people refuse to see that. They're not the same, though, and I find Lilly to be the more humane of the two, and I think that that's going to be pointed out to in the next few episodes. The scene with Kenny yelling at Sarita didn't sit well with me at all, and I'm really, really suspicious of the dude, now more than ever.
First off, Lilly was much less humane than Kenny was. She is clearly against helping other people in the interest of "protecting the group". In Episode Two, she says, "We can't help every struggling survivor we find!". I found Lilly to be much more focused on survival, placing morals secondly. Kenny was also focused on survival, but could also make more moral decisions. And of course, when Kenny made more pragmatic decisions, it was to protect his family. Lilly made pragmatic decisions because that was her frame of mind and way of thinking.
Also, I had sided with Lilly in one playthrough and I still don't really understand why people like her. I found her to simply be an unpleasant, negative person. ._.
Thanks. It bugs me that people who have never not sided with Kenny don't understand why people like Lilly. I mean, if you're nice to Lilly, … moreKenny dislikes you, and vice versa. They both have polarizing kills of innocent people in the group. List goes on and on. They're supposed to be similar, and people refuse to see that. They're not the same, though, and I find Lilly to be the more humane of the two, and I think that that's going to be pointed out to in the next few episodes. The scene with Kenny yelling at Sarita didn't sit well with me at all, and I'm really, really suspicious of the dude, now more than ever.
What are you talking about? Kenny did kill Ben because he knew it was Ben's greatest fear to be eaten by walkers. That was the biggest thing about the Alley Scene, Kenny is fighting off walkers, then runs over to where Ben is. Ben says, "Kenny please!" And Kenny says, "I'm sorry" before shooting him in the head with the last bullet, and then runs away. I'm almost positive that that scene goes that way every single time because I didn't save any bullet, so Kenny only had the gun with one bullet to begin with, and he used to only one to save been from being eaten(alive that is).
How did you miss that, because as far as I know, there are no other ways that that scene can go.
And that's true that nothing happened to Lilly in that time frame, but you have to consider that it would be much harder for Kenny to forgive Ben than Lilly because for Kenny, Ben was responsible for the death of Katjaa and Duck, and the loss of the Motor Inn. So yes, more happened to Kenny, but Kenny should have had a harder time forgiving Ben than Lilly would anyway. And forgive still isn't the right word for the Lilly situation, as I've said earlier.
And feeling guilt over killing Larry... I didn't really either, because Larry is the guy who tried to kill Lee at the end of episode One, just left him to die. Still, Larry was probably already dead. He had a massive heart attack, even if they got him breathing, that wouldn't have fixed the problem, and they couldn't really take the chance knowing that he could turn at any point. Kenny less killed Larry and more destroyed the brain after he was dead so he didn't turn. The fact that he tried to kill Lee earlier was just more reason not to try. I may have tried if it was anyone but Larry, but it still would have been stupid either way, and as far as I'm concerned, with Larry, it wasn't worth the risk vs. what his life was even worth.
So... short answer with the larry thing... Kenny viewed it as more destroying the brain after he'd died than killing him, so that's why he didn't feel guilt, or at least didn't express it in front of the group.
Except what happened within that time frame was very different. Kenny went through a lot of shit which changed his perspective on Ben. If he… more hadn't been through any of that (as opposed to Lilly, who did nothing between the killing and leaving), he'd have killed the kid in a second. Compare what happened on The Walking Dead last night with Tyreese and Carol.
As it stands, he let the kid turn in order to save himself. Self preservation and whatever, sure, but Kenny had a chance to come back up with Lee, but instead locked himself out, contemplated killing Ben to save him, and instead left him and ran off.
How far can we say Kenny actually forgave Ben? Certainly not enough to save him from zombificaiton.
Also, Kenny never once showed remorse for killing Larry, and that's more important to bring up since he had so much more time to express guilt for it.
Lilly has a small period of humanity after Larry dies, and then she decides that the correct decision to the stealing problem is killing someone. Before that, she would rather have people right outside their door get torn to shreds(including children) rather than take a small risk to rescue them. Same with Ben and Mr. Parker/Travis, she'd rather Lee and Kenny and Mark just left them to die in the woods. So beyond a small moment of humanity after her father's death that came to an end pretty shortly, Lilly was less humane than Kenny by far.
Oh, and Larry didn't just punch him in the face, he knocked him flat and then left him to die in a room full of walkers. That's very different than Kenny determinedly punching Lee in the face during a fight.
Also, Larry is awful to Lee no matter what, whereas with Kenny it's determinant. You can't compare non-determinant things to determinant things. Regardless, Larry was not innocent, he attempted to kill. Lee. Also, in Kenny's mind, and in all likeliness, Larry was already dead, and even if he wasn't. He would have been within a few seconds. With anyone else, maybe it would have been worth the risk... But Larry's life simply wasn't worth taking the risk, in my mind at least. Viewing it neutrally, Kenny thought he was just destroying a corpse's brain, whereas Lilly knew that she was going to shoot an innocent person, either Carley or Ben(Doug takes the bullet though).
Wasn't Larry innocent, too?
"But he punched Lee in the face!" So did Kenny.
"But he's a douchebag to Lee!" So was Kenny.
I think th… moree best way to contrast the two characters (since again, they are so similar) is to look at how they react to Lee killing or not killing the woman in Macon running from walkers. Lilly gets upset if you leave the woman to be ripped to shreds and Kenny gets on your ass if you put her out of her misery.
Kenny's choice is the most pragmatic, sure, but Lilly's is the most humane.
Do with that what you will.
Still the initial thought of her saying that she'd rather have left the entire group to be torn apart by walkers... That is literally the opposite of nice. One of the most memorable parts of that scene for me was when Lilly said, "Those things out there don't care!" and Kenny responded with, "Well maybe you should go join 'em, you'll have something in common!"
My opinion.. When we met her she didn't really want us there. But later she was grateful for Lee's help in getting the pills. And in the end when she talked to you I found her words were nice. Just my opinion though
Also she says when you first meet her that she'd rather have left everyone to be torn apart by walkers than take the small risk to help them. In fact, that situation repeats itself with Ben and Mr. Parker/Travis.
People call her cold hearted for 1. Killing Carley in cold blooded 2. If you bring her along she steals your rv and leaves everyone (even clementine) to die
IMO that's why people hate her
No way. Mainly because of the obvious reason but I dont think Clementine even had that much interaction with Lilly. Then again she probably … moredidn't talk to Carley much either. I do feel like amongst all the adults she would've known Kenny and Katja the most (other than Lee). *And Christa and Omid
I didn't like Lilly but I understand her. At that moment in meat locker I saved her dad. Because a thought if it was my dad. When she shot Carley, Hate her at that point, she was. What have I done to her. She was thinking about her dad that moment and all that shit. I did take her with my. She stole the RV. We never saw her again. I... Will... Not hug her if I see her again. But if she comes back in these season she must do something really good so I and all of us can forgive her! Think about this!
I definitely wouldn't of hugged Lilly, but I wouldn't of been rude right away to her either. I would of waited to see how she reacted to me.… more If she was polite & regretted what she did to Carley, I would of most likely forgiven her at that point. If she had acted pissy & tried to defend her actions, I would of not been too nice towards her.
There's a difference between struggling and in mortal danger. In that same episode, I believe, Kenny chose to let a woman be ripped to shreds instead of putting her out of her misery.
First off, Lilly was much less humane than Kenny was. She is clearly against helping other people in the interest of "protecting the group".… more In Episode Two, she says, "We can't help every struggling survivor we find!". I found Lilly to be much more focused on survival, placing morals secondly. Kenny was also focused on survival, but could also make more moral decisions. And of course, when Kenny made more pragmatic decisions, it was to protect his family. Lilly made pragmatic decisions because that was her frame of mind and way of thinking.
Also, I had sided with Lilly in one playthrough and I still don't really understand why people like her. I found her to simply be an unpleasant, negative person. ._.
In S2E2, Kenny says he didn't kill Ben. It makes the entire scene a waste.
I didn't miss it, actually. I had saved several bullets and heard two gunshots, so I was under the impression that Kenny killed Ben and then himself. But then in the most recent episode, he admits that he didn't kill Ben and fought his way out instead.
Not really. His entire perspective was changed about Ben. He had to work with him to survive, and he learned a lot about the kid and why he did what he did. Ben didn't necessarily redeem himself in Kenny's eyes, but he at least ended the bloodfeud.
When you return to Macon, Kenny tries to kill Lee, too, so I don't see why it's relevant. There was no sign that it was a massive heart attack, and he was definitely breathing afterwards. He might have been fucked, but there's no proof of it. That's the whole point, I believe. More comparison to what Lilly did later. Unfounded murder out of fear and emotion.
What are you talking about? Kenny did kill Ben because he knew it was Ben's greatest fear to be eaten by walkers. That was the biggest thing… more about the Alley Scene, Kenny is fighting off walkers, then runs over to where Ben is. Ben says, "Kenny please!" And Kenny says, "I'm sorry" before shooting him in the head with the last bullet, and then runs away. I'm almost positive that that scene goes that way every single time because I didn't save any bullet, so Kenny only had the gun with one bullet to begin with, and he used to only one to save been from being eaten(alive that is).
How did you miss that, because as far as I know, there are no other ways that that scene can go.
And that's true that nothing happened to Lilly in that time frame, but you have to consider that it would be much harder for Kenny to forgive Ben than Lilly because for Kenny, Ben was responsible for the death of Katjaa and Duck, and the loss of the Motor Inn. So yes, … [view original content]
If someone betrays your group, gets one of your members bit, and almost gets everyone killed, what would be the appropriate response? And again, we should compare this to Kenny wanting to leave that woman in Macon to be ripped to pieces instead of putting her out of her misery.
Can you blame him? Lee is a convicted murderer. We know he's a good guy, but Larry didn't. If you were in his situation, in a group with two kids and your daughter, would you want to have a convicted murderer around? Now, was it the right thing to do? Probably not, but it isn't as if his action was totally just mustache-twirling EEEEEEEEEVIL.
Larry's a jerk to everyone. Being a jerk isn't a capital offense. And yeah, you can compare them, because that's what everyone is doing. "Lilly is mean no matter what" only holds up if you're deliberately antagonizing her with Kenny. "Destroying a corpse's brain" is an awful dissociated way to look at it. I wouldn't put that past Kenny, but that's possibly the least humane way to look at something. Strip someone of their humanity to justify what you do to them. And Lilly knew she was going to shoot a guilty person. She, correctly, ID'd Ben as the guilty party, and was going to kill him until one person or the other got in the way.
Both characters were wrong for what they did, though. In that way, this should not be used to justify liking one over the other because it's hypocrisy territory.
Lilly has a small period of humanity after Larry dies, and then she decides that the correct decision to the stealing problem is killing som… moreeone. Before that, she would rather have people right outside their door get torn to shreds(including children) rather than take a small risk to rescue them. Same with Ben and Mr. Parker/Travis, she'd rather Lee and Kenny and Mark just left them to die in the woods. So beyond a small moment of humanity after her father's death that came to an end pretty shortly, Lilly was less humane than Kenny by far.
Oh, and Larry didn't just punch him in the face, he knocked him flat and then left him to die in a room full of walkers. That's very different than Kenny determinedly punching Lee in the face during a fight.
Also, Larry is awful to Lee no matter what, whereas with Kenny it's determinant. You can't compare non-determinant things to determinant things. Regardless, Larry was not innocent, he attempted to… [view original content]
As we've seen in later episodes, trusting people can get you killed. I don't see how that constitutes a small risk.
The Ben and [Determinant] situation was even moreso given that someone was already stealing some of their supplies. They couldn't afford to take on more. What do you do in that situation? Let everyone in your group starve so that a couple of people don't?
Also she says when you first meet her that she'd rather have left everyone to be torn apart by walkers than take the small risk to help them. In fact, that situation repeats itself with Ben and Mr. Parker/Travis.
The last memory of Lily Clem has is her shooting a really good group member and a friend for no reason right in front of her eyes... so I don't think so.
In Lilly's defense, she was right about not being able to trust Kenny. He did smash her dad's skull in, after all. So much for her being nice, I guess.
Still the initial thought of her saying that she'd rather have left the entire group to be torn apart by walkers... That is literally the op… moreposite of nice. One of the most memorable parts of that scene for me was when Lilly said, "Those things out there don't care!" and Kenny responded with, "Well maybe you should go join 'em, you'll have something in common!"
No, he says, "I couldn't save the kid, but I got out." He never says that he didn't kill Ben. I'm not sure how you got that from that conversation, he very clearly did kill Ben before the walkers got to him.
And with Kenny trying to kill Lee, again, you can't compare determinant and non-determinant actions, but even then, Larry was actively trying to kill Lee, whereas in the other situation, what Kenny did was just not actively helping Lee.
And it's pretty obvious that it is a heart attack, given that he has a heart problem and he was clutching at his chest when he went down, Lilly clearly said, "He's not breathing!" and the breathing afterwards could have been him turning. It's unlikely that he would have lived, and for people like me, his life was not worth taking the risk.
In S2E2, Kenny says he didn't kill Ben. It makes the entire scene a waste.
I didn't miss it, actually. I had saved several bullets and he… moreard two gunshots, so I was under the impression that Kenny killed Ben and then himself. But then in the most recent episode, he admits that he didn't kill Ben and fought his way out instead.
Not really. His entire perspective was changed about Ben. He had to work with him to survive, and he learned a lot about the kid and why he did what he did. Ben didn't necessarily redeem himself in Kenny's eyes, but he at least ended the bloodfeud.
When you return to Macon, Kenny tries to kill Lee, too, so I don't see why it's relevant. There was no sign that it was a massive heart attack, and he was definitely breathing afterwards. He might have been fucked, but there's no proof of it. That's the whole point, I believe. More comparison to what Lilly did later. Unfounded murder out of fear and emotion.
That's Episode 3, and you've got a point with that. I actually shot the woman and put her out of her misery, and was confused when Kenny was angry at Lee. Especially since they still got a lot of supplies. I'm definitely not defending Kenny's actions, but there's a difference. Lilly was against helping living survivors, and Kenny was against risking the whole scavenging mission to put a woman out of her misery. The woman was dead either way, so while his decision was still incredible inhumane, Lilly's general attitude about not helping other living survivors is still worse, in my opinion.
There's a difference between struggling and in mortal danger. In that same episode, I believe, Kenny chose to let a woman be ripped to shreds instead of putting her out of her misery.
Correct, Larry was innocent. I didn't like him but I still tried to save him but I also understood Kennys reasons for not wanting to take the risk of Larry turning. Kenny could have at least waited to see if Larry could have been revived before saltlicking him but I guess he just wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now onto Carley - I like Carley and she was never in risk of turning (nor did I for a second believe she stole the supplies) which is why I can't forgive Lily.
Wasn't Larry innocent, too?
"But he punched Lee in the face!" So did Kenny.
"But he's a douchebag to Lee!" So was Kenny.
I think th… moree best way to contrast the two characters (since again, they are so similar) is to look at how they react to Lee killing or not killing the woman in Macon running from walkers. Lilly gets upset if you leave the woman to be ripped to shreds and Kenny gets on your ass if you put her out of her misery.
Kenny's choice is the most pragmatic, sure, but Lilly's is the most humane.
Do with that what you will.
Well I can tell you that murder is generally not the appropriate response, especially since Lilly didn't actually know anything or have any proof. And we shouldn't compare the two situations because they aren't really comparable. Lilly felt that murder was the appropriate response when she didn't even have any proof, and Kenny didn't hasten the death of a survivor who was already dead. Both were wrong, but they are not comparable situations, and Lilly was much more in the wrong than Kenny was.
And yes, I can blame Larry for his actions. Larry didn't really know anything about Lee, he acted prematurely, and also, Lee is the guy who potentially saved his life in that drug store, and he only repays Lee by... what, trying to kill him? Yes, I can completely blame Larry for trying to kill Lee.
No, you still can't compare something that is non-determinant to something that is determinant, and the example you used is bad because Lilly is mean no matter what. At least, I found her to be incredibly unpleasant and negative, and even if she isn't exactly mean to Lee, then she's mean to just about everyone else.
Kenny viewed it as destroying a corpse's brain because he thought that Larry was dead, and he may have been right. In Kenny's mind, he wasn't doing anything to Larry specifically because Larry was already dead.
In the case of Carley, Lilly shot an innocent woman, in the case of Ben, Lilly may have been right, but murder is still not the correct option, and she didn't actually know that she was right, really, she was just guessing. She had absolutely no proof, evidence, or anything to support that Ben was guilty, so even though he was guilty, you can't really apply that to the situation because at that point in time, no one knew.
If someone betrays your group, gets one of your members bit, and almost gets everyone killed, what would be the appropriate response? And ag… moreain, we should compare this to Kenny wanting to leave that woman in Macon to be ripped to pieces instead of putting her out of her misery.
Can you blame him? Lee is a convicted murderer. We know he's a good guy, but Larry didn't. If you were in his situation, in a group with two kids and your daughter, would you want to have a convicted murderer around? Now, was it the right thing to do? Probably not, but it isn't as if his action was totally just mustache-twirling EEEEEEEEEVIL.
Larry's a jerk to everyone. Being a jerk isn't a capital offense. And yeah, you can compare them, because that's what everyone is doing. "Lilly is mean no matter what" only holds up if you're deliberately antagonizing her with Kenny. "Destroying a corpse's brain" is an awful dissociated way to look at it. I wouldn't put that… [view original content]
I assumed 'save the kid' meant put him out of his misery. Perhaps I misunderstood.
I think it is still worth mentioning as determinant status doesn't change that for my playthrough, it was non determinant. Yeah, Larry was going to be a tool regardless of what you did (though he was somewhat nicer with me since I kept doing nice things for him).
Or it could have meant that the chest compressions and rescue breathing resuscitated him. It's akin to the scene in the TV series where Lori is giving Hershel mouth-to-mouth and he wheezes and Carl's ready to unload on him. He didn't, though, and that's frickin' CARL.
No, he says, "I couldn't save the kid, but I got out." He never says that he didn't kill Ben. I'm not sure how you got that from that conver… moresation, he very clearly did kill Ben before the walkers got to him.
And with Kenny trying to kill Lee, again, you can't compare determinant and non-determinant actions, but even then, Larry was actively trying to kill Lee, whereas in the other situation, what Kenny did was just not actively helping Lee.
And it's pretty obvious that it is a heart attack, given that he has a heart problem and he was clutching at his chest when he went down, Lilly clearly said, "He's not breathing!" and the breathing afterwards could have been him turning. It's unlikely that he would have lived, and for people like me, his life was not worth taking the risk.
I'm not saying she should be forgiven (though my Clem would, given what all she knows, has seen, and blames herself for, ie Lee, Ben, Omid, and Christa) but rather that she made a huge mistake, like Kenny did, like Lee did, and that if we can give those two a chance, then she is deserving of a chance as well.
I think the reason Lilly started suspecting Carley was because she kept being obnoxiously in her face about it. It was pretty suspicious, and you generally don't rile up someone who's just been through hell and is on the warpath.
Correct, Larry was innocent. I didn't like him but I still tried to save him but I also understood Kennys reasons for not wanting to take th… moree risk of Larry turning. Kenny could have at least waited to see if Larry could have been revived before saltlicking him but I guess he just wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now onto Carley - I like Carley and she was never in risk of turning (nor did I for a second believe she stole the supplies) which is why I can't forgive Lily.
Lilly was trying to save the people she already had in the group. She wanted to avoid taking on too much of a burden and watching everyone die. Let a few stragglers die so that the group may survive. It's not the most humane option, I guess, but it's impossible to help everyone when you can barely help yourselves.
That's Episode 3, and you've got a point with that. I actually shot the woman and put her out of her misery, and was confused when Kenny was… more angry at Lee. Especially since they still got a lot of supplies. I'm definitely not defending Kenny's actions, but there's a difference. Lilly was against helping living survivors, and Kenny was against risking the whole scavenging mission to put a woman out of her misery. The woman was dead either way, so while his decision was still incredible inhumane, Lilly's general attitude about not helping other living survivors is still worse, in my opinion.
Larry knew Lee was a convicted murderer who plead guilty to his crime. Would you trust your life to a murderer? It's an interesting situation. Yes, the dude is a huge asshole, and leaving you to die was pretty bad, but it's not like he was just out of nowhere being a bad guy to you.
Determinant becomes non-determinant through the course of the story. Kenny isn't suddenly an asshole to Lee and Lilly isn't suddenly nice if you make certain choices. They always had the potential, but it had to be elicited out of them.
It isn't a corpse's brain. It's Larry's brain. And Larry was, as far as anyone knew, alive. In his panic, he killed the guy, but that doesn't change the fact that his view was wrong. Same as Lilly.
Lilly knew who it wasn't (Kenny, Katjaa, Lee, the kids, Doug) and she never really suspected Carley until Carley started acting super suspect. Process of elimination. It's not exactly American-system justice, but that doesn't change much. Yes, she was wrong to do it. See above. Neither were right in their extrajudicial killings of innocent people. Which is the whole point.
It's interesting that in a party of three murderers, only one is vilified for it. The other interesting thing is that Lilly didn't kick Kenny out for killing her dad. Why'd she let Kenny stick around when Kenny was so adamant about her leaving after her murdering?
Well I can tell you that murder is generally not the appropriate response, especially since Lilly didn't actually know anything or have any … moreproof. And we shouldn't compare the two situations because they aren't really comparable. Lilly felt that murder was the appropriate response when she didn't even have any proof, and Kenny didn't hasten the death of a survivor who was already dead. Both were wrong, but they are not comparable situations, and Lilly was much more in the wrong than Kenny was.
And yes, I can blame Larry for his actions. Larry didn't really know anything about Lee, he acted prematurely, and also, Lee is the guy who potentially saved his life in that drug store, and he only repays Lee by... what, trying to kill him? Yes, I can completely blame Larry for trying to kill Lee.
No, you still can't compare something that is non-determinant to something that is determinant, and the example you used is bad because Lilly is mean n… [view original content]
Lilly was trying to save the people she already had in the group. She wanted to avoid taking on too much of a burden and watching everyone d… moreie. Let a few stragglers die so that the group may survive. It's not the most humane option, I guess, but it's impossible to help everyone when you can barely help yourselves.
I think it's one that I'd have to get over, myself. It'd be hard for me to let people keep moving on, but if your group is just scraping by where it is now, adding more hungry/sick/etc mouths to feed/treat/etc would probably destroy your group. Hell, the addition of Ben, which Lilly was opposed to, practically got everyone killed. And yeah, it's unfair to base behavior off of worst case scenarios, but I think situations get so bad that that's the only thing you can predict off of.
I believe that you did misunderstand, I'm positive that Kenny killed Ben before the walkers could get him.
And you may be right, Larry could have been alive. The difference with the Larry situation vs. the Hershel situation is that Hershel's life was worth taking that risk for. Larry's wasn't. In my mind at least, and clearly in Kenny's mind. Helping Kenny kill Larry was probably the least humane decision I made in my playthrough next to leaving Lilly and stealing from the car, but I really only regret stealing from the car. With Larry, as I said, for me, his life wasn't worth taking that risk. with Lilly, I still believe that she deserves whatever happened to her. Also, I honestly believed that Larry was dead at that point. Maybe if he wasn't I wouldn't have been so hasty... But I believed that he was dead, and his life wasn't truly worth the risk anyway(in my opinion).
I assumed 'save the kid' meant put him out of his misery. Perhaps I misunderstood.
I think it is still worth mentioning as determinant st… moreatus doesn't change that for my playthrough, it was non determinant. Yeah, Larry was going to be a tool regardless of what you did (though he was somewhat nicer with me since I kept doing nice things for him).
Or it could have meant that the chest compressions and rescue breathing resuscitated him. It's akin to the scene in the TV series where Lori is giving Hershel mouth-to-mouth and he wheezes and Carl's ready to unload on him. He didn't, though, and that's frickin' CARL.
I believe that you did misunderstand, I'm positive that Kenny killed Ben before the walkers could get him.
And you may be right, Larry co… moreuld have been alive. The difference with the Larry situation vs. the Hershel situation is that Hershel's life was worth taking that risk for. Larry's wasn't. In my mind at least, and clearly in Kenny's mind. Helping Kenny kill Larry was probably the least humane decision I made in my playthrough next to leaving Lilly and stealing from the car, but I really only regret stealing from the car. With Larry, as I said, for me, his life wasn't worth taking that risk. with Lilly, I still believe that she deserves whatever happened to her. Also, I honestly believed that Larry was dead at that point. Maybe if he wasn't I wouldn't have been so hasty... But I believed that he was dead, and his life wasn't truly worth the risk anyway(in my opinion).
Even though Larry knew that Lee was a convicted murder, why should it have mattered? Lee was the guy who just saved his life, how much of an asshole do you have to be to try and kill the person who just saved you? Regardless, Larry isn't innocent.
Kenny may have had the "potential" to be an asshole to Lee, but there's still a difference. Larry always was, no matter what. For some people, Kenny and Lee were like family by the end of the first Season, and no matter what, i'm pretty sure that in S2 Kenny will either say "he was a hell of a guy", or "he took care of my son"(not exact) even if him and Lee were complete enemies. So on a base level, Kenny always respected Lee. I'm not sure Larry ever did.
Larry could have been alive, he could also easily have been dead. From Kenny's point of view, Larry was dead, and so at the very least Kenny never considered it as killing Larry.
Regardless of Lilly being able to narrow it down, she couldn't have been certain, and at that time, she may as well have just shot an innocent person(well she did, but even when her intent was to shoot Ben, she may as well have shot an innocent person).
The reason that only one is vilified for it is because Lee is our protagonist, and he redeems himself several times over, also, it is revealed that he actually killed the senator in a fight, no necessarily self-defense, but not murder in the clearest sense of the word either.
Kenny killed someone(maybe) because he was trying to protect the group. Even if you thought that he absolutely just murdered Larry, you can't deny that his intentions weren't really cruel.
Lilly is villified of the three of them because it was cold-blooded murder(or an accident because she was going to murder someone else), and it was the murder of someone that most people liked. With Lee, we didn't know the senator, and almost no one liked Larry, some people completely hated him, but with Lilly killing Carley or Doug, it was either someone that Lee had a crush on, or a very close friend of his.
Simple answer, the game itself kind of villified Lilly. Lee of course is the protagonist, and though it may have vilified Kenny a little, that wore off quickly because he was the third most important character of S1. The game gave you an option to leave Lilly on the side of the road to die, it clearly meant to vilify her.
Oh, and as for Lilly not kicking Kenny out, I doubt that she could have. Carley/Doug respected Kenny, as did Ben. Even if Lee didn't like Kenny, Lee and Lilly would have been out numbered. She really didn't have the option to kick him out.
Larry knew Lee was a convicted murderer who plead guilty to his crime. Would you trust your life to a murderer? It's an interesting situatio… moren. Yes, the dude is a huge asshole, and leaving you to die was pretty bad, but it's not like he was just out of nowhere being a bad guy to you.
Determinant becomes non-determinant through the course of the story. Kenny isn't suddenly an asshole to Lee and Lilly isn't suddenly nice if you make certain choices. They always had the potential, but it had to be elicited out of them.
It isn't a corpse's brain. It's Larry's brain. And Larry was, as far as anyone knew, alive. In his panic, he killed the guy, but that doesn't change the fact that his view was wrong. Same as Lilly.
Lilly knew who it wasn't (Kenny, Katjaa, Lee, the kids, Doug) and she never really suspected Carley until Carley started acting super suspect. Process of elimination. It's not exactly American-system justice, but that doesn't ch… [view original content]
Trust doesn't exactly work that way. And a cynical mind could take that all kinds of ways. Dude was looking out for his kid just like Kenny was. They'd both be dicks to everyone to keep their kid safe. And they both definitely were.
I really don't see a difference. The story plays out one way or another, but Kenny is Kenny. If you support Lilly, Kenny will always be a huge asshole to you.
Kenny's point of view was poisoned by fear and panic. He wasn't in his right mind when he did it. Same as Lilly.
Not denying it's terrible justice, but again, she wasn't in her right mind. She saw it as legitimate justice, just like Kenny saw what he was doing as saving himself and the others.
Lilly didn't get a chance to redeem herself. And Lee killed the guy, regardless of the circumstances. It wasn't deemed self defense, and he doesn't exactly deny that he killed the guy over something really pointless.
I think Kenny was terrified that he was about to lose his wife and child, and so he was going to do whatever he could to save them. Forget everyone else in the room, he was looking out for him and his. And I don't really fault him for reacting out of extreme panic, same with Lilly. I do think they were both wrong in what they did, but I understand why they did it.
That's pointless bias, though. We have to strip personal feelings out of it and look at it based upon motive, crime, and the follow-up. Kenny was pretty much forgiven by the group, as was Lee. Given the circumstances, if that was going to be the group's decision, they'd have to weigh if she was going to be a risk to the others. Lilly didn't give them that chance, though, and forced herself into self-exile. Hard to say if it was noble or not, but I don't fault her for taking the fastest way out of the situation. What really gets me about that situation is that Kenny doesn't tell everyone that the RV was almost dead until after Lilly leaves. Yeah, it's a good AHA moment after she runs, but everyone should have known. And if that was the case, I don't see why they'd care about it.
Honestly, I found him to be an important character because he was frequently a detriment to the group. Always wanting to do things his own way, at the expense of group cohesion. He was important yes, but important like Ben was important. A fly in the ointment. And yeah, I wonder why the game didn't let us choose to punish Kenny for what he did. Bias, I guess.
Even though Larry knew that Lee was a convicted murder, why should it have mattered? Lee was the guy who just saved his life, how much of an… more asshole do you have to be to try and kill the person who just saved you? Regardless, Larry isn't innocent.
Kenny may have had the "potential" to be an asshole to Lee, but there's still a difference. Larry always was, no matter what. For some people, Kenny and Lee were like family by the end of the first Season, and no matter what, i'm pretty sure that in S2 Kenny will either say "he was a hell of a guy", or "he took care of my son"(not exact) even if him and Lee were complete enemies. So on a base level, Kenny always respected Lee. I'm not sure Larry ever did.
Larry could have been alive, he could also easily have been dead. From Kenny's point of view, Larry was dead, and so at the very least Kenny never considered it as killing Larry.
Regardless of Lilly being able to narrow it down, she couldn… [view original content]
Eh, I agree with some of your points, and I disagree with some. Honestly, I think this back and forth has worn out a bit. At this point, we've convinced each other of all we'd have been able to convince each other of, and at this point, I don't see much value in continuing the argument. Though I disagree with some of your opinions, I can respect them because you seemed to mostly respect mine and you presented your argument well.
So... Uh, truce I guess. Not really a truce because we weren't really fighting, but I'm sure you get the point.
Trust doesn't exactly work that way. And a cynical mind could take that all kinds of ways. Dude was looking out for his kid just like Kenny … morewas. They'd both be dicks to everyone to keep their kid safe. And they both definitely were.
I really don't see a difference. The story plays out one way or another, but Kenny is Kenny. If you support Lilly, Kenny will always be a huge asshole to you.
Kenny's point of view was poisoned by fear and panic. He wasn't in his right mind when he did it. Same as Lilly.
Not denying it's terrible justice, but again, she wasn't in her right mind. She saw it as legitimate justice, just like Kenny saw what he was doing as saving himself and the others.
Lilly didn't get a chance to redeem herself. And Lee killed the guy, regardless of the circumstances. It wasn't deemed self defense, and he doesn't exactly deny that he killed the guy over something really pointless.
I think Kenny was terrified that he w… [view original content]
Eh, I agree with some of your points, and I disagree with some. Honestly, I think this back and forth has worn out a bit. At this point, we'… moreve convinced each other of all we'd have been able to convince each other of, and at this point, I don't see much value in continuing the argument. Though I disagree with some of your opinions, I can respect them because you seemed to mostly respect mine and you presented your argument well.
So... Uh, truce I guess. Not really a truce because we weren't really fighting, but I'm sure you get the point.
I'm not saying I wouldn't give her a chance if we happened to come across her again - I'm honestly not sure what I'd do. I try to save everyone but when she shot Carley I left her sorry ass behind without hesitation...- but Clem would be cautious and wary with her.
Saying that though I really didn't want Kenny to be the ITYWD person (still waiting for a proper explanation!) but I still ended up hugging him despite being Team Luke. So I guess we'll cross that bridge IF and when we come to it...
I'm not saying she should be forgiven (though my Clem would, given what all she knows, has seen, and blames herself for, ie Lee, Ben, Omid, … moreand Christa) but rather that she made a huge mistake, like Kenny did, like Lee did, and that if we can give those two a chance, then she is deserving of a chance as well.
I think the reason Lilly started suspecting Carley was because she kept being obnoxiously in her face about it. It was pretty suspicious, and you generally don't rile up someone who's just been through hell and is on the warpath.
Comments
Y u gotta be hatin' on Lilly?
Except what happened within that time frame was very different. Kenny went through a lot of shit which changed his perspective on Ben. If he hadn't been through any of that (as opposed to Lilly, who did nothing between the killing and leaving), he'd have killed the kid in a second. Compare what happened on The Walking Dead last night with Tyreese and Carol.
As it stands, he let the kid turn in order to save himself. Self preservation and whatever, sure, but Kenny had a chance to come back up with Lee, but instead locked himself out, contemplated killing Ben to save him, and instead left him and ran off.
How far can we say Kenny actually forgave Ben? Certainly not enough to save him from zombificaiton.
Also, Kenny never once showed remorse for killing Larry, and that's more important to bring up since he had so much more time to express guilt for it.
Wasn't Larry innocent, too?
"But he punched Lee in the face!" So did Kenny.
"But he's a douchebag to Lee!" So was Kenny.
I think the best way to contrast the two characters (since again, they are so similar) is to look at how they react to Lee killing or not killing the woman in Macon running from walkers. Lilly gets upset if you leave the woman to be ripped to shreds and Kenny gets on your ass if you put her out of her misery.
Kenny's choice is the most pragmatic, sure, but Lilly's is the most humane.
Do with that what you will.
Raging_Blades thinks you are incredibly awesome.
We must form the order of Lilly Guardians.
Clemmy once talked about having her locked up forever or something like that if you made certain conditions and talked to her by the train in ep3 (It's been so long, I can't remember exactly what she says, but she doesn't like Lilly. Not that she hates her either.)
I think Clementine would be cold and sarcastic to her(especially since my Clem used Carley as a fake name when talking to Carver). Wouldn't trust her, wouldn't want to be around her, might try to get her to leave, etc. So... no, she would not hug Lilly.
Thanks. It bugs me that people who have never not sided with Kenny don't understand why people like Lilly. I mean, if you're nice to Lilly, Kenny dislikes you, and vice versa. They both have polarizing kills of innocent people in the group. List goes on and on. They're supposed to be similar, and people refuse to see that. They're not the same, though, and I find Lilly to be the more humane of the two, and I think that that's going to be pointed out to in the next few episodes. The scene with Kenny yelling at Sarita didn't sit well with me at all, and I'm really, really suspicious of the dude, now more than ever.
First off, Lilly was much less humane than Kenny was. She is clearly against helping other people in the interest of "protecting the group". In Episode Two, she says, "We can't help every struggling survivor we find!". I found Lilly to be much more focused on survival, placing morals secondly. Kenny was also focused on survival, but could also make more moral decisions. And of course, when Kenny made more pragmatic decisions, it was to protect his family. Lilly made pragmatic decisions because that was her frame of mind and way of thinking.
Also, I had sided with Lilly in one playthrough and I still don't really understand why people like her. I found her to simply be an unpleasant, negative person. ._.
What are you talking about? Kenny did kill Ben because he knew it was Ben's greatest fear to be eaten by walkers. That was the biggest thing about the Alley Scene, Kenny is fighting off walkers, then runs over to where Ben is. Ben says, "Kenny please!" And Kenny says, "I'm sorry" before shooting him in the head with the last bullet, and then runs away. I'm almost positive that that scene goes that way every single time because I didn't save any bullet, so Kenny only had the gun with one bullet to begin with, and he used to only one to save been from being eaten(alive that is).
How did you miss that, because as far as I know, there are no other ways that that scene can go.
And that's true that nothing happened to Lilly in that time frame, but you have to consider that it would be much harder for Kenny to forgive Ben than Lilly because for Kenny, Ben was responsible for the death of Katjaa and Duck, and the loss of the Motor Inn. So yes, more happened to Kenny, but Kenny should have had a harder time forgiving Ben than Lilly would anyway. And forgive still isn't the right word for the Lilly situation, as I've said earlier.
And feeling guilt over killing Larry... I didn't really either, because Larry is the guy who tried to kill Lee at the end of episode One, just left him to die. Still, Larry was probably already dead. He had a massive heart attack, even if they got him breathing, that wouldn't have fixed the problem, and they couldn't really take the chance knowing that he could turn at any point. Kenny less killed Larry and more destroyed the brain after he was dead so he didn't turn. The fact that he tried to kill Lee earlier was just more reason not to try. I may have tried if it was anyone but Larry, but it still would have been stupid either way, and as far as I'm concerned, with Larry, it wasn't worth the risk vs. what his life was even worth.
So... short answer with the larry thing... Kenny viewed it as more destroying the brain after he'd died than killing him, so that's why he didn't feel guilt, or at least didn't express it in front of the group.
Lilly has a small period of humanity after Larry dies, and then she decides that the correct decision to the stealing problem is killing someone. Before that, she would rather have people right outside their door get torn to shreds(including children) rather than take a small risk to rescue them. Same with Ben and Mr. Parker/Travis, she'd rather Lee and Kenny and Mark just left them to die in the woods. So beyond a small moment of humanity after her father's death that came to an end pretty shortly, Lilly was less humane than Kenny by far.
Oh, and Larry didn't just punch him in the face, he knocked him flat and then left him to die in a room full of walkers. That's very different than Kenny determinedly punching Lee in the face during a fight.
Also, Larry is awful to Lee no matter what, whereas with Kenny it's determinant. You can't compare non-determinant things to determinant things. Regardless, Larry was not innocent, he attempted to kill. Lee. Also, in Kenny's mind, and in all likeliness, Larry was already dead, and even if he wasn't. He would have been within a few seconds. With anyone else, maybe it would have been worth the risk... But Larry's life simply wasn't worth taking the risk, in my mind at least. Viewing it neutrally, Kenny thought he was just destroying a corpse's brain, whereas Lilly knew that she was going to shoot an innocent person, either Carley or Ben(Doug takes the bullet though).
Still the initial thought of her saying that she'd rather have left the entire group to be torn apart by walkers... That is literally the opposite of nice. One of the most memorable parts of that scene for me was when Lilly said, "Those things out there don't care!" and Kenny responded with, "Well maybe you should go join 'em, you'll have something in common!"
Also she says when you first meet her that she'd rather have left everyone to be torn apart by walkers than take the small risk to help them. In fact, that situation repeats itself with Ben and Mr. Parker/Travis.
Well, Carley gave her the batteries and stuff.
I didn't like Lilly but I understand her. At that moment in meat locker I saved her dad. Because a thought if it was my dad. When she shot Carley, Hate her at that point, she was. What have I done to her. She was thinking about her dad that moment and all that shit. I did take her with my. She stole the RV. We never saw her again. I... Will... Not hug her if I see her again. But if she comes back in these season she must do something really good so I and all of us can forgive her!
Think about this!
You have right. There is a theory she can come back and I just the comics and Google Maps and all that stuff.
There's a difference between struggling and in mortal danger. In that same episode, I believe, Kenny chose to let a woman be ripped to shreds instead of putting her out of her misery.
In S2E2, Kenny says he didn't kill Ben. It makes the entire scene a waste.
I didn't miss it, actually. I had saved several bullets and heard two gunshots, so I was under the impression that Kenny killed Ben and then himself. But then in the most recent episode, he admits that he didn't kill Ben and fought his way out instead.
Not really. His entire perspective was changed about Ben. He had to work with him to survive, and he learned a lot about the kid and why he did what he did. Ben didn't necessarily redeem himself in Kenny's eyes, but he at least ended the bloodfeud.
When you return to Macon, Kenny tries to kill Lee, too, so I don't see why it's relevant. There was no sign that it was a massive heart attack, and he was definitely breathing afterwards. He might have been fucked, but there's no proof of it. That's the whole point, I believe. More comparison to what Lilly did later. Unfounded murder out of fear and emotion.
My Clem would hug her. Look at the Flowers Lilly... just...look at the Flowers. "Boom Headshot".
(Watch Walking Dead Season 4 Episode 14 to know what I mean.
If someone betrays your group, gets one of your members bit, and almost gets everyone killed, what would be the appropriate response? And again, we should compare this to Kenny wanting to leave that woman in Macon to be ripped to pieces instead of putting her out of her misery.
Can you blame him? Lee is a convicted murderer. We know he's a good guy, but Larry didn't. If you were in his situation, in a group with two kids and your daughter, would you want to have a convicted murderer around? Now, was it the right thing to do? Probably not, but it isn't as if his action was totally just mustache-twirling EEEEEEEEEVIL.
Larry's a jerk to everyone. Being a jerk isn't a capital offense. And yeah, you can compare them, because that's what everyone is doing. "Lilly is mean no matter what" only holds up if you're deliberately antagonizing her with Kenny. "Destroying a corpse's brain" is an awful dissociated way to look at it. I wouldn't put that past Kenny, but that's possibly the least humane way to look at something. Strip someone of their humanity to justify what you do to them. And Lilly knew she was going to shoot a guilty person. She, correctly, ID'd Ben as the guilty party, and was going to kill him until one person or the other got in the way.
Both characters were wrong for what they did, though. In that way, this should not be used to justify liking one over the other because it's hypocrisy territory.
As we've seen in later episodes, trusting people can get you killed. I don't see how that constitutes a small risk.
The Ben and [Determinant] situation was even moreso given that someone was already stealing some of their supplies. They couldn't afford to take on more. What do you do in that situation? Let everyone in your group starve so that a couple of people don't?
I couldn't say it any better! Btw metal \m/
The last memory of Lily Clem has is her shooting a really good group member and a friend for no reason right in front of her eyes... so I don't think so.
In Lilly's defense, she was right about not being able to trust Kenny. He did smash her dad's skull in, after all. So much for her being nice, I guess.
No, he says, "I couldn't save the kid, but I got out." He never says that he didn't kill Ben. I'm not sure how you got that from that conversation, he very clearly did kill Ben before the walkers got to him.
And with Kenny trying to kill Lee, again, you can't compare determinant and non-determinant actions, but even then, Larry was actively trying to kill Lee, whereas in the other situation, what Kenny did was just not actively helping Lee.
And it's pretty obvious that it is a heart attack, given that he has a heart problem and he was clutching at his chest when he went down, Lilly clearly said, "He's not breathing!" and the breathing afterwards could have been him turning. It's unlikely that he would have lived, and for people like me, his life was not worth taking the risk.
That's Episode 3, and you've got a point with that. I actually shot the woman and put her out of her misery, and was confused when Kenny was angry at Lee. Especially since they still got a lot of supplies. I'm definitely not defending Kenny's actions, but there's a difference. Lilly was against helping living survivors, and Kenny was against risking the whole scavenging mission to put a woman out of her misery. The woman was dead either way, so while his decision was still incredible inhumane, Lilly's general attitude about not helping other living survivors is still worse, in my opinion.
Correct, Larry was innocent. I didn't like him but I still tried to save him but I also understood Kennys reasons for not wanting to take the risk of Larry turning. Kenny could have at least waited to see if Larry could have been revived before saltlicking him but I guess he just wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now onto Carley - I like Carley and she was never in risk of turning (nor did I for a second believe she stole the supplies) which is why I can't forgive Lily.
Well I can tell you that murder is generally not the appropriate response, especially since Lilly didn't actually know anything or have any proof. And we shouldn't compare the two situations because they aren't really comparable. Lilly felt that murder was the appropriate response when she didn't even have any proof, and Kenny didn't hasten the death of a survivor who was already dead. Both were wrong, but they are not comparable situations, and Lilly was much more in the wrong than Kenny was.
And yes, I can blame Larry for his actions. Larry didn't really know anything about Lee, he acted prematurely, and also, Lee is the guy who potentially saved his life in that drug store, and he only repays Lee by... what, trying to kill him? Yes, I can completely blame Larry for trying to kill Lee.
No, you still can't compare something that is non-determinant to something that is determinant, and the example you used is bad because Lilly is mean no matter what. At least, I found her to be incredibly unpleasant and negative, and even if she isn't exactly mean to Lee, then she's mean to just about everyone else.
Kenny viewed it as destroying a corpse's brain because he thought that Larry was dead, and he may have been right. In Kenny's mind, he wasn't doing anything to Larry specifically because Larry was already dead.
In the case of Carley, Lilly shot an innocent woman, in the case of Ben, Lilly may have been right, but murder is still not the correct option, and she didn't actually know that she was right, really, she was just guessing. She had absolutely no proof, evidence, or anything to support that Ben was guilty, so even though he was guilty, you can't really apply that to the situation because at that point in time, no one knew.
I assumed 'save the kid' meant put him out of his misery. Perhaps I misunderstood.
I think it is still worth mentioning as determinant status doesn't change that for my playthrough, it was non determinant. Yeah, Larry was going to be a tool regardless of what you did (though he was somewhat nicer with me since I kept doing nice things for him).
Or it could have meant that the chest compressions and rescue breathing resuscitated him. It's akin to the scene in the TV series where Lori is giving Hershel mouth-to-mouth and he wheezes and Carl's ready to unload on him. He didn't, though, and that's frickin' CARL.
I'm not saying she should be forgiven (though my Clem would, given what all she knows, has seen, and blames herself for, ie Lee, Ben, Omid, and Christa) but rather that she made a huge mistake, like Kenny did, like Lee did, and that if we can give those two a chance, then she is deserving of a chance as well.
I think the reason Lilly started suspecting Carley was because she kept being obnoxiously in her face about it. It was pretty suspicious, and you generally don't rile up someone who's just been through hell and is on the warpath.
Lilly was trying to save the people she already had in the group. She wanted to avoid taking on too much of a burden and watching everyone die. Let a few stragglers die so that the group may survive. It's not the most humane option, I guess, but it's impossible to help everyone when you can barely help yourselves.
Larry knew Lee was a convicted murderer who plead guilty to his crime. Would you trust your life to a murderer? It's an interesting situation. Yes, the dude is a huge asshole, and leaving you to die was pretty bad, but it's not like he was just out of nowhere being a bad guy to you.
Determinant becomes non-determinant through the course of the story. Kenny isn't suddenly an asshole to Lee and Lilly isn't suddenly nice if you make certain choices. They always had the potential, but it had to be elicited out of them.
It isn't a corpse's brain. It's Larry's brain. And Larry was, as far as anyone knew, alive. In his panic, he killed the guy, but that doesn't change the fact that his view was wrong. Same as Lilly.
Lilly knew who it wasn't (Kenny, Katjaa, Lee, the kids, Doug) and she never really suspected Carley until Carley started acting super suspect. Process of elimination. It's not exactly American-system justice, but that doesn't change much. Yes, she was wrong to do it. See above. Neither were right in their extrajudicial killings of innocent people. Which is the whole point.
It's interesting that in a party of three murderers, only one is vilified for it. The other interesting thing is that Lilly didn't kick Kenny out for killing her dad. Why'd she let Kenny stick around when Kenny was so adamant about her leaving after her murdering?
True, I can understand that way of thinking, it's just one that I disagree with.
I think it's one that I'd have to get over, myself. It'd be hard for me to let people keep moving on, but if your group is just scraping by where it is now, adding more hungry/sick/etc mouths to feed/treat/etc would probably destroy your group. Hell, the addition of Ben, which Lilly was opposed to, practically got everyone killed. And yeah, it's unfair to base behavior off of worst case scenarios, but I think situations get so bad that that's the only thing you can predict off of.
I believe that you did misunderstand, I'm positive that Kenny killed Ben before the walkers could get him.
And you may be right, Larry could have been alive. The difference with the Larry situation vs. the Hershel situation is that Hershel's life was worth taking that risk for. Larry's wasn't. In my mind at least, and clearly in Kenny's mind. Helping Kenny kill Larry was probably the least humane decision I made in my playthrough next to leaving Lilly and stealing from the car, but I really only regret stealing from the car. With Larry, as I said, for me, his life wasn't worth taking that risk. with Lilly, I still believe that she deserves whatever happened to her. Also, I honestly believed that Larry was dead at that point. Maybe if he wasn't I wouldn't have been so hasty... But I believed that he was dead, and his life wasn't truly worth the risk anyway(in my opinion).
Both were worth taking the risk for. Do your best to save the living within your capacity.
Even though Larry knew that Lee was a convicted murder, why should it have mattered? Lee was the guy who just saved his life, how much of an asshole do you have to be to try and kill the person who just saved you? Regardless, Larry isn't innocent.
Kenny may have had the "potential" to be an asshole to Lee, but there's still a difference. Larry always was, no matter what. For some people, Kenny and Lee were like family by the end of the first Season, and no matter what, i'm pretty sure that in S2 Kenny will either say "he was a hell of a guy", or "he took care of my son"(not exact) even if him and Lee were complete enemies. So on a base level, Kenny always respected Lee. I'm not sure Larry ever did.
Larry could have been alive, he could also easily have been dead. From Kenny's point of view, Larry was dead, and so at the very least Kenny never considered it as killing Larry.
Regardless of Lilly being able to narrow it down, she couldn't have been certain, and at that time, she may as well have just shot an innocent person(well she did, but even when her intent was to shoot Ben, she may as well have shot an innocent person).
The reason that only one is vilified for it is because Lee is our protagonist, and he redeems himself several times over, also, it is revealed that he actually killed the senator in a fight, no necessarily self-defense, but not murder in the clearest sense of the word either.
Kenny killed someone(maybe) because he was trying to protect the group. Even if you thought that he absolutely just murdered Larry, you can't deny that his intentions weren't really cruel.
Lilly is villified of the three of them because it was cold-blooded murder(or an accident because she was going to murder someone else), and it was the murder of someone that most people liked. With Lee, we didn't know the senator, and almost no one liked Larry, some people completely hated him, but with Lilly killing Carley or Doug, it was either someone that Lee had a crush on, or a very close friend of his.
Simple answer, the game itself kind of villified Lilly. Lee of course is the protagonist, and though it may have vilified Kenny a little, that wore off quickly because he was the third most important character of S1. The game gave you an option to leave Lilly on the side of the road to die, it clearly meant to vilify her.
Oh, and as for Lilly not kicking Kenny out, I doubt that she could have. Carley/Doug respected Kenny, as did Ben. Even if Lee didn't like Kenny, Lee and Lilly would have been out numbered. She really didn't have the option to kick him out.
Well, I suppose we've got a difference of opinion there. Agree to disagree and all that, I respect your opinion, you respect mine.
Trust doesn't exactly work that way. And a cynical mind could take that all kinds of ways. Dude was looking out for his kid just like Kenny was. They'd both be dicks to everyone to keep their kid safe. And they both definitely were.
I really don't see a difference. The story plays out one way or another, but Kenny is Kenny. If you support Lilly, Kenny will always be a huge asshole to you.
Kenny's point of view was poisoned by fear and panic. He wasn't in his right mind when he did it. Same as Lilly.
Not denying it's terrible justice, but again, she wasn't in her right mind. She saw it as legitimate justice, just like Kenny saw what he was doing as saving himself and the others.
Lilly didn't get a chance to redeem herself. And Lee killed the guy, regardless of the circumstances. It wasn't deemed self defense, and he doesn't exactly deny that he killed the guy over something really pointless.
I think Kenny was terrified that he was about to lose his wife and child, and so he was going to do whatever he could to save them. Forget everyone else in the room, he was looking out for him and his. And I don't really fault him for reacting out of extreme panic, same with Lilly. I do think they were both wrong in what they did, but I understand why they did it.
That's pointless bias, though. We have to strip personal feelings out of it and look at it based upon motive, crime, and the follow-up. Kenny was pretty much forgiven by the group, as was Lee. Given the circumstances, if that was going to be the group's decision, they'd have to weigh if she was going to be a risk to the others. Lilly didn't give them that chance, though, and forced herself into self-exile. Hard to say if it was noble or not, but I don't fault her for taking the fastest way out of the situation. What really gets me about that situation is that Kenny doesn't tell everyone that the RV was almost dead until after Lilly leaves. Yeah, it's a good AHA moment after she runs, but everyone should have known. And if that was the case, I don't see why they'd care about it.
Honestly, I found him to be an important character because he was frequently a detriment to the group. Always wanting to do things his own way, at the expense of group cohesion. He was important yes, but important like Ben was important. A fly in the ointment. And yeah, I wonder why the game didn't let us choose to punish Kenny for what he did. Bias, I guess.
Eh, I agree with some of your points, and I disagree with some. Honestly, I think this back and forth has worn out a bit. At this point, we've convinced each other of all we'd have been able to convince each other of, and at this point, I don't see much value in continuing the argument. Though I disagree with some of your opinions, I can respect them because you seemed to mostly respect mine and you presented your argument well.
So... Uh, truce I guess. Not really a truce because we weren't really fighting, but I'm sure you get the point.
Sounds like a plan.
I'm not saying I wouldn't give her a chance if we happened to come across her again - I'm honestly not sure what I'd do. I try to save everyone but when she shot Carley I left her sorry ass behind without hesitation...- but Clem would be cautious and wary with her.
Saying that though I really didn't want Kenny to be the ITYWD person (still waiting for a proper explanation!) but I still ended up hugging him despite being Team Luke. So I guess we'll cross that bridge IF and when we come to it...