my excuse is because of the angle clem enters the camp it's not easy to spot with all the trees and other camp stuff around and it's only when you are close to the bin does it give you the option to interact with it and it's not in the 'main camp' is just outside of it.
You could be right about the patch thing on steam since I've never played the PC version,
but I played it on the PS3, which I believe came … moreout on the same day as the one on steam, and examining the oil drum was actually the first thing I did when arriving at the camp site.
Yeah, but you must then confront yourself with the fact that you may or may not have got more enjoyment out of the previous $25 package made by the same people.
While TTG episodes used to be longer, I feel like the density of meaningful content has increased quite a bit. Current episodes are more lik… moree movies: pretty much every scene has an actual purpose in the narrative.
I'll admit that occasionally I think back and realize that I would like the episodes to be longer, but then I remember one important thing:
I am getting more enjoyment out of this $25 package than I get out of most $60 packages.
as far as ac 1 goes,
well i didn't hate it per se i just couldn't invest the time into it at the time lol still have the disc so probably… more will go back and at least finish the first game and then download the second game i got 'free' with games for gold on xbox.
I think from a "lines of dialog per episode" basis, we have a goal we try to meet per episode, that I believe is what was similar to season 1. As many people on the forums have pointed out, probably having less hubs where you go around and talk to people at your own pace detracts from how long you spend playing the game. But I think from a story standpoint, it hasn't made as much sense in season 2 so far to have many hubs where you casually walk around and talk to people.
Also, I forget which series we started this one (I've worked on way too many), but it was decided a few years back that about 90 minutes was our goal for game play length - mostly because we feel like our games are best experienced when played in one sitting.
I think from a "lines of dialog per episode" basis, we have a goal we try to meet per episode, that I believe is what was similar to season … more1. As many people on the forums have pointed out, probably having less hubs where you go around and talk to people at your own pace detracts from how long you spend playing the game. But I think from a story standpoint, it hasn't made as much sense in season 2 so far to have many hubs where you casually walk around and talk to people.
Also, I forget which series we started this one (I've worked on way too many), but it was decided a few years back that about 90 minutes was our goal for game play length - mostly because we feel like our games are best experienced when played in one sitting.
I disagree that having a couple of hubs wouldn't make sense to include them in S2. I am no game designer, I don't know what it takes for you guys to make these things, but I think that they really add to the episode overall.
For Season 2, I always give these examples in which I think hubs could have worked:
1. The Cabin, The Morning After: You are the newcomer to a new group. Not all of them trust you, but some already kind of like you. Still, you know nothing about them and they know nothing about you. This wouldn't be a "tell me the story of your lives" section, but more of a more calm introduction to the group before going to the fish traps. Is this absolutely necessary to the story? Nope, it does not advance the plot, but it is beneficial in the long run. Also, the whole episode was completely fast-paced, and I was one of the ones who thought the ending was abrupt; this gives the player some downtime, you get to know Pete and Nick a little better and then you end your episode the way you did, but with more to consider when choosing between the two of them.
2. The Cabin, GTFO before Carver gets there: A few conversations could've been had while they were packing. Maybe having Carlos acknowledge you taking care of (or not) of Sarah, that dynamic with the three is potentially very interesting, just not very developed as of now. Have the group worry about the missing person and/or the dead. Maybe help them pack and chat for a bit about why Carver is bad news. You may want to keep the group's reasons secret, but hearing some hints and a bit of their side of the story doesn't hurt, I think.
3. Camp, On The Road:Five days later, sigh. A scene with them camping and talking to each other. It has been some days since Clementine first entered their lives, and a little unofficial "welcome to the family" scene could've worked. Show us that these are people beyond what their stereotypes and the plot need them to be. This also strengthens the bond with this new group and makes a strong case on why you don't want them to die at the end. It also makes the dinner choice even more difficult.
4. Matt's house: Not precisely a hub, more like when everyone was sitting down near the train in Long Road Ahead. You already have it, with some good dialogue for Nick and the scene with Alvin. Rebecca and Sarah are just kind of there, though. Catching up a little in there would have been nice. Also, ending the scene by walking in on the conversation Carlos Nick and Luke were having instead of walkers coming out of the bridge.
5. The Ski Lodge, Christmas Dinner: What, you say? There is already a hub there? Well, yeah, but kind of a weak one, I think. What's up with the rest of the people we arrived with? Are we supposed to forget they exist just because we saw that one person? What's up with Luke, with Carlos?
I wouldn't necessarily put all of the mentioned above, but some could work, I think.I also think that maybe bar episode 4, all episodes last season were of a very decent yet not overly long length. Starved for Help qualifies as "one sitting" to me.
I am sorry for the rambling, and for Grammar/Spelling mistakes. I am not a native English speaker and am also falling asleep on my keyboard right now.
I think from a "lines of dialog per episode" basis, we have a goal we try to meet per episode, that I believe is what was similar to season … more1. As many people on the forums have pointed out, probably having less hubs where you go around and talk to people at your own pace detracts from how long you spend playing the game. But I think from a story standpoint, it hasn't made as much sense in season 2 so far to have many hubs where you casually walk around and talk to people.
Also, I forget which series we started this one (I've worked on way too many), but it was decided a few years back that about 90 minutes was our goal for game play length - mostly because we feel like our games are best experienced when played in one sitting.
Matt's house, I agree with you, probably could have given more options to talk with others characters. And the ski lodge, we actually had it more hub-like, but I think some play testers didn't talk to everyone and then said they didn't feel like they got to know everyone well enough, so we made some of the conversations critical path by just cut-scene-ing them.
The thing about hubs is we still need to give the player a goal and purpose. Not all players want to just wander around and talk to everyone. For example, your morning after idea - the previous scene was entirely a dialog of talking to people and getting to know them. What does opening up the cabin the next morning to walk around get you? Sure, you can talk to people and get to know them even more if you want, but what if you don't? You already snooped through all their stuff searching for supplies, and none of them really trust you enough to assign you a task.
You'll notice most of our Season 1 hubs also had a task assigned during them - hand out food, find a way into the pharmacy, search for missing supplies, etc. If you look at your ideas, ask yourself what the players' non-talk-to-people goal would be. And then ask yourself if it makes sense with the story's pacing at that point, or if it's an interesting enough task to not feel like busy work.
Interesting. Thanks for replying!
I disagree that having a couple of hubs wouldn't make sense to include them in S2. I am no game designe… morer, I don't know what it takes for you guys to make these things, but I think that they really add to the episode overall.
For Season 2, I always give these examples in which I think hubs could have worked:
1. The Cabin, The Morning After: You are the newcomer to a new group. Not all of them trust you, but some already kind of like you. Still, you know nothing about them and they know nothing about you. This wouldn't be a "tell me the story of your lives" section, but more of a more calm introduction to the group before going to the fish traps. Is this absolutely necessary to the story? Nope, it does not advance the plot, but it is beneficial in the long run. Also, the whole episode was completely fast-paced, and I was one of the ones who thought the ending was abrupt; this gives the player some down… [view original content]
To add to the comments from @bubbledncr, this BuzzFeed article does a pretty good job of summing up where Telltale games fit (or at least aim to fit) in the entertainment world. The kind of place we want to be is where you're talking to your family or date or whoever about what to do tonight after dinner - "should we watch a movie, or play the latest Telltale episode?" A movie might be 90 minutes long, or it could be 3 hours. Either way, you usually get through it in one go, and that's what we're aiming for with the length of our epiosdes - single-sitting entertainment.
The exact length will always vary depending on how much of the environment you want to explore, optional conversations you might find or miss (e.g. Alvin and the juice box), and of course how we decide to structure the story across the season. I can't go into too much detail on that last part, but as a general example, there's one scene that was originally planned for Episode 2 of The Wolf Among Us but later moved into Episode 3 because it just made better storytelling/dramatic sense to have it there.
We don't want people to get stuck on obscure puzzles or tedious busywork, or have them dying repeatedly just to artifically extend gameplay time, because that disrupts the flow of the story and just becomes frustrating. The point of the choice-and-consequence model isn't that it's mechanically difficult to complete - it's about how the story, and the choices you make within that story, affect you. The length of any individual episode is always tailored around what makes sense for that.
To add to the comments from @bubbledncr, this BuzzFeed article does a pretty good job of summing up where Telltale games fit (or at least ai… morem to fit) in the entertainment world. The kind of place we want to be is where you're talking to your family or date or whoever about what to do tonight after dinner - "should we watch a movie, or play the latest Telltale episode?" A movie might be 90 minutes long, or it could be 3 hours. Either way, you usually get through it in one go, and that's what we're aiming for with the length of our epiosdes - single-sitting entertainment.
The exact length will always vary depending on how much of the environment you want to explore, optional conversations you might find or miss (e.g. Alvin and the juice box), and of course how we decide to structure the story across the season. I can't go into too much detail on that last part, but as a general example, there's one scene that was originally planned for Episo… [view original content]
To add to the comments from @bubbledncr, this BuzzFeed article does a pretty good job of summing up where Telltale games fit (or at least ai… morem to fit) in the entertainment world. The kind of place we want to be is where you're talking to your family or date or whoever about what to do tonight after dinner - "should we watch a movie, or play the latest Telltale episode?" A movie might be 90 minutes long, or it could be 3 hours. Either way, you usually get through it in one go, and that's what we're aiming for with the length of our epiosdes - single-sitting entertainment.
The exact length will always vary depending on how much of the environment you want to explore, optional conversations you might find or miss (e.g. Alvin and the juice box), and of course how we decide to structure the story across the season. I can't go into too much detail on that last part, but as a general example, there's one scene that was originally planned for Episo… [view original content]
Goal and purpose... yeah, kind of hard to implement in these, that is an angle I hadn't considered. And yeah, I know there are players who don't particularly like hubs and talking to people, and that there are people who overlook possible conversations.
I remember that S1Ep1 had a popup that read "Talk to the people you've met so far" or something like that. Maybe also making clear that it is optional in those areas without a specific goal to accomplish can help those who want to just continue the story. Make clear what is the person/object/thaangs that will trigger the next scene and have the player decide if he wants to stop or continue.
This would still be a problem for completintionists who don't like hubs, yet force themselves to trek through them... oh well.
Matt's house, I agree with you, probably could have given more options to talk with others characters. And the ski lodge, we actually had it… more more hub-like, but I think some play testers didn't talk to everyone and then said they didn't feel like they got to know everyone well enough, so we made some of the conversations critical path by just cut-scene-ing them.
The thing about hubs is we still need to give the player a goal and purpose. Not all players want to just wander around and talk to everyone. For example, your morning after idea - the previous scene was entirely a dialog of talking to people and getting to know them. What does opening up the cabin the next morning to walk around get you? Sure, you can talk to people and get to know them even more if you want, but what if you don't? You already snooped through all their stuff searching for supplies, and none of them really trust you enough to assign you a task.
You'll notice most… [view original content]
The time jumps are another thing that should be addressed. 5 days walking through the woods. That is time you could have spent doing something to add to the game. 18 month time jump in episode 1 is another one. Time jumps at the beginning of episodes make sense. But numerous times throughout the episode become, excuse my language. Lazy writing.
Season 1 wasn't single-sitting entertainment? Nobody is asking for 4 hour episodes. We are asking for episode length akin to Season 1. And since they are the same price, I don't think that is out of the question to note.
To add to the comments from @bubbledncr, this BuzzFeed article does a pretty good job of summing up where Telltale games fit (or at least ai… morem to fit) in the entertainment world. The kind of place we want to be is where you're talking to your family or date or whoever about what to do tonight after dinner - "should we watch a movie, or play the latest Telltale episode?" A movie might be 90 minutes long, or it could be 3 hours. Either way, you usually get through it in one go, and that's what we're aiming for with the length of our epiosdes - single-sitting entertainment.
The exact length will always vary depending on how much of the environment you want to explore, optional conversations you might find or miss (e.g. Alvin and the juice box), and of course how we decide to structure the story across the season. I can't go into too much detail on that last part, but as a general example, there's one scene that was originally planned for Episo… [view original content]
To add to the comments from @bubbledncr, this BuzzFeed article does a pretty good job of summing up where Telltale games fit (or at least ai… morem to fit) in the entertainment world. The kind of place we want to be is where you're talking to your family or date or whoever about what to do tonight after dinner - "should we watch a movie, or play the latest Telltale episode?" A movie might be 90 minutes long, or it could be 3 hours. Either way, you usually get through it in one go, and that's what we're aiming for with the length of our epiosdes - single-sitting entertainment.
The exact length will always vary depending on how much of the environment you want to explore, optional conversations you might find or miss (e.g. Alvin and the juice box), and of course how we decide to structure the story across the season. I can't go into too much detail on that last part, but as a general example, there's one scene that was originally planned for Episo… [view original content]
To me it seems more like you're trying to fix something that ain't broken. Not trying to be disrespectful, A House Divided was one of the best TWD episodes, but you're removing things that were part of the reason why Season 1 was so successful. A lot of players, including myself, were enjoying the puzzles and hubs as well as the longer episodes. A 2-2.5 hour episode, like those of S1, can still be completed in one sitting.
To add to the comments from @bubbledncr, this BuzzFeed article does a pretty good job of summing up where Telltale games fit (or at least ai… morem to fit) in the entertainment world. The kind of place we want to be is where you're talking to your family or date or whoever about what to do tonight after dinner - "should we watch a movie, or play the latest Telltale episode?" A movie might be 90 minutes long, or it could be 3 hours. Either way, you usually get through it in one go, and that's what we're aiming for with the length of our epiosdes - single-sitting entertainment.
The exact length will always vary depending on how much of the environment you want to explore, optional conversations you might find or miss (e.g. Alvin and the juice box), and of course how we decide to structure the story across the season. I can't go into too much detail on that last part, but as a general example, there's one scene that was originally planned for Episo… [view original content]
I would have to say that it's not something intentional. No one ever said we should stop having hubs. So many things get changed over the production of an episode - scenes get added, removed, etc, all for the intent of making the best possible story. If there isn't a hub where players think might have been a good spot, there are many reasons why we decided not to put one there, as I discussed in one of my earlier posts.
I'm glad the forumites have expressed their desire to have more hubs. It's some of the most constructive criticism I've seen. And the fact that I'm commenting on this thread means it hasn't gone unnoticed. But you just have to trust that all the decisions we make are all made with the goal of creating the best possible game - and not with the intent of just making shorter games.
To me it seems more like you're trying to fix something that ain't broken. Not trying to be disrespectful, A House Divided was one of the be… morest TWD episodes, but you're removing things that were part of the reason why Season 1 was so successful. A lot of players, including myself, were enjoying the puzzles and hubs as well as the longer episodes. A 2-2.5 hour episode, like those of S1, can still be completed in one sitting.
Thank you so much @puzzlebox and @bubbledncr for responding to this topic! It really does help us understand what's going on, and aids me in seeing things from Telltale's point of view.
But at the risk of grating on everyone's nerves, may I make a tiny comment on the whole 90 single-sitting direction?
Even though in reality that is a fairly long time, I've noticed that for the majority of the fanbase here, including me, time flies when playing the episodes, which shows how much we love the game and how amazing everything about it is. From the animation, the character models, dialogue, etc. You name it. Everything has been stepped up a notch and exponentially increased in quality so far. And that's saying a lot, as I hold Season One dear to my heart. So when everything is compressed into [around] ninety minutes in Season Two, each time it feels like barely half an hour has past since I started playing. Even my family, who has always watched while I played this series from the start, have exclaimed "What? It's over already? That was short..." every time I finished one of the new episodes. I try to click on everything to make the experience longer, but after experimentally timing that strategy, it really doesn't make all that much of a difference this time around. Truthfully, the old hubs and puzzles are what got me so invested in the characters and universe as a whole, and was a fresh take compared to today's traditional gameplay which relies heavily on cut scenes.
I by no means have ever designed a game, and there are probably tons of things to the process that I have no comprehension about, but maybe there is a way to satisfy both ends of the argument? For example, is there perhaps a possibility of giving us more "optional" hubs and interaction? This way, if some players do deem it to be a bore, they could skip through it. But others, such as me, could finally have the moment that we have been waiting for (since we've encountered the cabin group) to get to know everything and everyone in a clearer light.
I'm always so scared to reply to you guys like this in fear that my response might sound as if I or anyone else don't enjoy the episodes anymore, but I assure you that this is far from the case. The stories that you've created have us questioning about the mystery of the new characters, such as motivations, and that's a welcomed addition. I keep mentioning everywhere how phenomenal the tension in "A House Divided" was, because it's true. "Starved For Help" used to be my favourite, but now even that has been topped, and I applaud you guys for that. Other than the minor issues of the shorter length and gameplay that some of us are experiencing, I believe this is and will be the best season yet. The story of Clementine just keeps getting better. In the end, we don't want to come off as disrespectful or overtly criticize, as we are only trying to help you guys by giving you feedback. It's the only way we know how to.
Keep up the spectacular work! We honestly appreciate it, and I mean this in a non sarcastic way. Also, I apologize for any grammatical or repetitive mistakes. I'm sort of tired at the moment, haha.
To add to the comments from @bubbledncr, this BuzzFeed article does a pretty good job of summing up where Telltale games fit (or at least ai… morem to fit) in the entertainment world. The kind of place we want to be is where you're talking to your family or date or whoever about what to do tonight after dinner - "should we watch a movie, or play the latest Telltale episode?" A movie might be 90 minutes long, or it could be 3 hours. Either way, you usually get through it in one go, and that's what we're aiming for with the length of our epiosdes - single-sitting entertainment.
The exact length will always vary depending on how much of the environment you want to explore, optional conversations you might find or miss (e.g. Alvin and the juice box), and of course how we decide to structure the story across the season. I can't go into too much detail on that last part, but as a general example, there's one scene that was originally planned for Episo… [view original content]
Don't be scared of replying to out comments! I like having rational discussions about our games, and hearing you opinions on what we could do better. Just don't go posting scare-threads based on what I say ;-)
Though I think at this point, after all the comments I've made so far, there's isn't much more I can say other than we see your feedback, and if we aren't addressing it, it is mostly likely for a good reason. Not because we just don't want to.
Thank you so much @puzzlebox and @bubbledncr for responding to this topic! It really does help us understand what's going on, and aids me in… more seeing things from Telltale's point of view.
But at the risk of grating on everyone's nerves, may I make a tiny comment on the whole 90 single-sitting direction?
Even though in reality that is a fairly long time, I've noticed that for the majority of the fanbase here, including me, time flies when playing the episodes, which shows how much we love the game and how amazing everything about it is. From the animation, the character models, dialogue, etc. You name it. Everything has been stepped up a notch and exponentially increased in quality so far. And that's saying a lot, as I hold Season One dear to my heart. So when everything is compressed into [around] ninety minutes in Season Two, each time it feels like barely half an hour has past since I started playing. Even my family, who has always wat… [view original content]
Ah, I know what you mean by scare-threads. I've never posted one, but I did reply to one recently on impulse. Although I've now realised that it was taken out of context.
I, and I'm sure everyone else, appreciates that you took the time in responding to us. I trust you guys. And after seeing your responses, it puts my worries to rest about the whole feedback thing that's been going on in the forums.
Good luck on Episode 3 and your other future releases!
Don't be scared of replying to out comments! I like having rational discussions about our games, and hearing you opinions on what we could d… moreo better. Just don't go posting scare-threads based on what I say ;-)
Though I think at this point, after all the comments I've made so far, there's isn't much more I can say other than we see your feedback, and if we aren't addressing it, it is mostly likely for a good reason. Not because we just don't want to.
Thank you for replying! That clears up a lot of confusion. I most certainly trust you, S2 has been great so far. Hopefully you'll be able to find room for a hub or two in the next episodes, but if you don't I'm pretty sure it's for the best. Cheers!
I would have to say that it's not something intentional. No one ever said we should stop having hubs. So many things get changed over the pr… moreoduction of an episode - scenes get added, removed, etc, all for the intent of making the best possible story. If there isn't a hub where players think might have been a good spot, there are many reasons why we decided not to put one there, as I discussed in one of my earlier posts.
I'm glad the forumites have expressed their desire to have more hubs. It's some of the most constructive criticism I've seen. And the fact that I'm commenting on this thread means it hasn't gone unnoticed. But you just have to trust that all the decisions we make are all made with the goal of creating the best possible game - and not with the intent of just making shorter games.
On the topic of episode time I took the liberty of going to a few youtubers I'm subscribed too and I basically added up the time they spent on each episode, of course for a few of them you could probably minus minutes for intros but it gives an idea of the times of each episode. Key: 23.45= 23 minutes and 45 seconds.
DaStalinator Thegirlfromaus Pewdiepie
Season 1
1) 112.73/ 111.7/ 121.02
2) 138.42/ 118.95/ 123.68
3) 138.38 / 125.78/ 123.93
4) 157.99/ 147.02/ 138.67
5) 84.95/ 89.6/ 92.07
400 Days
1) 85.25/ 89.65/ 91.12
Season 2
1) 92.1/ 95.1/ 89.34
2) 98.14/ 108.88/ 100.72
So as one can see even though S2 is shorter than some episodes in season 1 It's around the same length as 400 days and episode 5. As well episode 2 seems longer in all the cases than episode 1 for Season
Now with Season 1 I mean in episode 1 if you took away the puzzle parts of the drug store the game would be closer to S2 same with like in episode 3 if you took away the train you basically take away around 10-20 minutes depending on how long it took you to figure the train out.
On the topic of episode time I took the liberty of going to a few youtubers I'm subscribed too and I basically added up the time they spent … moreon each episode, of course for a few of them you could probably minus minutes for intros but it gives an idea of the times of each episode. Key: 23.45= 23 minutes and 45 seconds.
DaStalinator Thegirlfromaus Pewdiepie
Season 1
1) 112.73/ 111.7/ 121.02
2) 138.42/ 118.95/ 123.68
3) 138.38 / 125.78/ 123.93
4) 157.99/ 147.02/ 138.67
5) 84… [view original content]
The time jumps are another thing that should be addressed. 5 days walking through the woods. That is time you could have spent doing somethi… moreng to add to the game. 18 month time jump in episode 1 is another one. Time jumps at the beginning of episodes make sense. But numerous times throughout the episode become, excuse my language. Lazy writing.
The scene with Nick/Pete could be considered a time jump, I guess. I think it's silly to complain about that, though. It really was needed, unless you think watching two people wait for 12 hours or more is entertaining.
Don't be scared of replying to out comments! I like having rational discussions about our games, and hearing you opinions on what we could d… moreo better. Just don't go posting scare-threads based on what I say ;-)
Though I think at this point, after all the comments I've made so far, there's isn't much more I can say other than we see your feedback, and if we aren't addressing it, it is mostly likely for a good reason. Not because we just don't want to.
Not exactly about hubs, but I'm curious about what your opinion with this idea which I made a while ago. Hope I'm not being an attention hound. But it's something I felt would be important to the story. Maybe in the future, perhaps?
I would have to say that it's not something intentional. No one ever said we should stop having hubs. So many things get changed over the pr… moreoduction of an episode - scenes get added, removed, etc, all for the intent of making the best possible story. If there isn't a hub where players think might have been a good spot, there are many reasons why we decided not to put one there, as I discussed in one of my earlier posts.
I'm glad the forumites have expressed their desire to have more hubs. It's some of the most constructive criticism I've seen. And the fact that I'm commenting on this thread means it hasn't gone unnoticed. But you just have to trust that all the decisions we make are all made with the goal of creating the best possible game - and not with the intent of just making shorter games.
On the topic of episode time I took the liberty of going to a few youtubers I'm subscribed too and I basically added up the time they spent … moreon each episode, of course for a few of them you could probably minus minutes for intros but it gives an idea of the times of each episode. Key: 23.45= 23 minutes and 45 seconds.
DaStalinator Thegirlfromaus Pewdiepie
Season 1
1) 112.73/ 111.7/ 121.02
2) 138.42/ 118.95/ 123.68
3) 138.38 / 125.78/ 123.93
4) 157.99/ 147.02/ 138.67
5) 84… [view original content]
I'm not a designer, but the one thing I would have against that scene is it pretty much forces Clementine to cry about Lee. But what if I'm the person who had Clem burn Lee's photo and is roleplaying Clem as someone who has hardened herself? I would be pretty annoyed that she suddenly did something "out of character" for MY Clem.
I think whenever Clementine has emotional moments like that, it has to be tied to a dialog option or choice moment that at least implies she's going to react that way, otherwise we risk breaking player agency. And it might be a little too silly to have a "cry" or "go to sleep" option pop up on the screen at that point.
Not to mention if Clem didn't accept Nick's apology, I don't think he would offer her to sleep in his bed, but then there could also be people who don't want to sleep in his bed. I mean, who knows the last time those sheets have been washed?
Sorry if that response comes off as too negative, I don't intend it to be, it is a good story beat - for people who roleplay Clem a certain way. We like to put emotional "clem remembers lee" moments in the game, but we always have to consider how it affects player agency when we do it. I know from my own game play experience, that whenever the player character has reacted emotionally to something I didn't think they should, it's annoyed the crap out of me and ruins the experience.
Not exactly about hubs, but I'm curious about what your opinion with this idea which I made a while ago. Hope I'm not being an attention hou… morend. But it's something I felt would be important to the story. Maybe in the future, perhaps?
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/62621/a-scene-i-think-should039ve-happpened-in-all-that-remains
Okay thanks, I wasn't thinking about choices in that discussion. Thanks for the insight though. I tend to play as hardened and "sassy" but still showing innocence in my Clementine. I cant bring myself to play as Evil Clem. Anyway, thanks for the criticism, I don't mind it being harsh. It helps with my story telling, especially since I'm working on a comic which should have the first part release sometime, hopefully soon. (I'm trying to be cryptic myself with this comic, it's not easy. I think I can finally understand you guys over at the Telltale offices.) Speaking of which, I should get working on it by now. Nice speaking with ya.
I'm not a designer, but the one thing I would have against that scene is it pretty much forces Clementine to cry about Lee. But what if I'm … morethe person who had Clem burn Lee's photo and is roleplaying Clem as someone who has hardened herself? I would be pretty annoyed that she suddenly did something "out of character" for MY Clem.
I think whenever Clementine has emotional moments like that, it has to be tied to a dialog option or choice moment that at least implies she's going to react that way, otherwise we risk breaking player agency. And it might be a little too silly to have a "cry" or "go to sleep" option pop up on the screen at that point.
Not to mention if Clem didn't accept Nick's apology, I don't think he would offer her to sleep in his bed, but then there could also be people who don't want to sleep in his bed. I mean, who knows the last time those sheets have been washed?
Sorry if that response comes off as too negative, I … [view original content]
I guess to each their own. I personally wasn't a fan of a few of the puzzles like the train which took me like 15 minutes to finish, though I would still say there are puzzles in season 2 like finding the beans in episode 1 or finding supplies in episode 1.
Personally I like the 2 hours-ish. I really like playing them in two sittings... Close together, but just playing an episode in one sitting is a little too, pardon the expression, orgasmic - a burst of fun followed by drawn out regret, confusion, and self-loathing. Then there's the seemingly-endless wait for the next one.
This has been an interesting read. Thanks for sharing, at the very least it shows you are here listening to your fans (yes, your fans, you make the thing we love).
Now, all I ask is this:
Use your weight and get the mods the ip ban functionality they deserve.
but since we had already explored the shed and tried the homemade hooch, all that was left was to some how get nick to talk instead he just froze solid.
The scene with Nick/Pete could be considered a time jump, I guess. I think it's silly to complain about that, though. It really was needed, unless you think watching two people wait for 12 hours or more is entertaining.
Comments
my excuse is because of the angle clem enters the camp it's not easy to spot with all the trees and other camp stuff around and it's only when you are close to the bin does it give you the option to interact with it and it's not in the 'main camp' is just outside of it.
i'll replay it and see what happens :P
It did! It was my fav episode for length and story.
Yeah, but you must then confront yourself with the fact that you may or may not have got more enjoyment out of the previous $25 package made by the same people.
Hmm maybe because of "TWAU 5-month delay" we got shorter episodes. Next episode of TWD and TWAU will be over 2 hours long i hope
Not the game, the Tyranny of King Washington DLC for Assassin's creed 3.
I think from a "lines of dialog per episode" basis, we have a goal we try to meet per episode, that I believe is what was similar to season 1. As many people on the forums have pointed out, probably having less hubs where you go around and talk to people at your own pace detracts from how long you spend playing the game. But I think from a story standpoint, it hasn't made as much sense in season 2 so far to have many hubs where you casually walk around and talk to people.
Also, I forget which series we started this one (I've worked on way too many), but it was decided a few years back that about 90 minutes was our goal for game play length - mostly because we feel like our games are best experienced when played in one sitting.
Thank you.
Interesting. Thanks for replying!
I disagree that having a couple of hubs wouldn't make sense to include them in S2. I am no game designer, I don't know what it takes for you guys to make these things, but I think that they really add to the episode overall.
For Season 2, I always give these examples in which I think hubs could have worked:
1. The Cabin, The Morning After: You are the newcomer to a new group. Not all of them trust you, but some already kind of like you. Still, you know nothing about them and they know nothing about you. This wouldn't be a "tell me the story of your lives" section, but more of a more calm introduction to the group before going to the fish traps. Is this absolutely necessary to the story? Nope, it does not advance the plot, but it is beneficial in the long run. Also, the whole episode was completely fast-paced, and I was one of the ones who thought the ending was abrupt; this gives the player some downtime, you get to know Pete and Nick a little better and then you end your episode the way you did, but with more to consider when choosing between the two of them.
2. The Cabin, GTFO before Carver gets there: A few conversations could've been had while they were packing. Maybe having Carlos acknowledge you taking care of (or not) of Sarah, that dynamic with the three is potentially very interesting, just not very developed as of now. Have the group worry about the missing person and/or the dead. Maybe help them pack and chat for a bit about why Carver is bad news. You may want to keep the group's reasons secret, but hearing some hints and a bit of their side of the story doesn't hurt, I think.
3. Camp, On The Road: Five days later, sigh. A scene with them camping and talking to each other. It has been some days since Clementine first entered their lives, and a little unofficial "welcome to the family" scene could've worked. Show us that these are people beyond what their stereotypes and the plot need them to be. This also strengthens the bond with this new group and makes a strong case on why you don't want them to die at the end. It also makes the dinner choice even more difficult.
4. Matt's house: Not precisely a hub, more like when everyone was sitting down near the train in Long Road Ahead. You already have it, with some good dialogue for Nick and the scene with Alvin. Rebecca and Sarah are just kind of there, though. Catching up a little in there would have been nice. Also, ending the scene by walking in on the conversation Carlos Nick and Luke were having instead of walkers coming out of the bridge.
5. The Ski Lodge, Christmas Dinner: What, you say? There is already a hub there? Well, yeah, but kind of a weak one, I think. What's up with the rest of the people we arrived with? Are we supposed to forget they exist just because we saw that one person? What's up with Luke, with Carlos?
I wouldn't necessarily put all of the mentioned above, but some could work, I think.I also think that maybe bar episode 4, all episodes last season were of a very decent yet not overly long length. Starved for Help qualifies as "one sitting" to me.
I am sorry for the rambling, and for Grammar/Spelling mistakes. I am not a native English speaker and am also falling asleep on my keyboard right now.
Shed walker approves of this message.
Matt's house, I agree with you, probably could have given more options to talk with others characters. And the ski lodge, we actually had it more hub-like, but I think some play testers didn't talk to everyone and then said they didn't feel like they got to know everyone well enough, so we made some of the conversations critical path by just cut-scene-ing them.
The thing about hubs is we still need to give the player a goal and purpose. Not all players want to just wander around and talk to everyone. For example, your morning after idea - the previous scene was entirely a dialog of talking to people and getting to know them. What does opening up the cabin the next morning to walk around get you? Sure, you can talk to people and get to know them even more if you want, but what if you don't? You already snooped through all their stuff searching for supplies, and none of them really trust you enough to assign you a task.
You'll notice most of our Season 1 hubs also had a task assigned during them - hand out food, find a way into the pharmacy, search for missing supplies, etc. If you look at your ideas, ask yourself what the players' non-talk-to-people goal would be. And then ask yourself if it makes sense with the story's pacing at that point, or if it's an interesting enough task to not feel like busy work.
To add to the comments from @bubbledncr, this BuzzFeed article does a pretty good job of summing up where Telltale games fit (or at least aim to fit) in the entertainment world. The kind of place we want to be is where you're talking to your family or date or whoever about what to do tonight after dinner - "should we watch a movie, or play the latest Telltale episode?" A movie might be 90 minutes long, or it could be 3 hours. Either way, you usually get through it in one go, and that's what we're aiming for with the length of our epiosdes - single-sitting entertainment.
The exact length will always vary depending on how much of the environment you want to explore, optional conversations you might find or miss (e.g. Alvin and the juice box), and of course how we decide to structure the story across the season. I can't go into too much detail on that last part, but as a general example, there's one scene that was originally planned for Episode 2 of The Wolf Among Us but later moved into Episode 3 because it just made better storytelling/dramatic sense to have it there.
We don't want people to get stuck on obscure puzzles or tedious busywork, or have them dying repeatedly just to artifically extend gameplay time, because that disrupts the flow of the story and just becomes frustrating. The point of the choice-and-consequence model isn't that it's mechanically difficult to complete - it's about how the story, and the choices you make within that story, affect you. The length of any individual episode is always tailored around what makes sense for that.
Puzzlebox saves the day.
now all we need is the release date for a crooked mile
Goal and purpose... yeah, kind of hard to implement in these, that is an angle I hadn't considered. And yeah, I know there are players who don't particularly like hubs and talking to people, and that there are people who overlook possible conversations.
I remember that S1Ep1 had a popup that read "Talk to the people you've met so far" or something like that. Maybe also making clear that it is optional in those areas without a specific goal to accomplish can help those who want to just continue the story. Make clear what is the person/object/thaangs that will trigger the next scene and have the player decide if he wants to stop or continue.
This would still be a problem for completintionists who don't like hubs, yet force themselves to trek through them... oh well.
The time jumps are another thing that should be addressed. 5 days walking through the woods. That is time you could have spent doing something to add to the game. 18 month time jump in episode 1 is another one. Time jumps at the beginning of episodes make sense. But numerous times throughout the episode become, excuse my language. Lazy writing.
Season 1 wasn't single-sitting entertainment? Nobody is asking for 4 hour episodes. We are asking for episode length akin to Season 1. And since they are the same price, I don't think that is out of the question to note.
And the release date for "In Harm's Way"
I like that idea, however - the release dates might need a change if you guys are now heading for that
To me it seems more like you're trying to fix something that ain't broken. Not trying to be disrespectful, A House Divided was one of the best TWD episodes, but you're removing things that were part of the reason why Season 1 was so successful. A lot of players, including myself, were enjoying the puzzles and hubs as well as the longer episodes. A 2-2.5 hour episode, like those of S1, can still be completed in one sitting.
I would have to say that it's not something intentional. No one ever said we should stop having hubs. So many things get changed over the production of an episode - scenes get added, removed, etc, all for the intent of making the best possible story. If there isn't a hub where players think might have been a good spot, there are many reasons why we decided not to put one there, as I discussed in one of my earlier posts.
I'm glad the forumites have expressed their desire to have more hubs. It's some of the most constructive criticism I've seen. And the fact that I'm commenting on this thread means it hasn't gone unnoticed. But you just have to trust that all the decisions we make are all made with the goal of creating the best possible game - and not with the intent of just making shorter games.
Thank you so much @puzzlebox and @bubbledncr for responding to this topic! It really does help us understand what's going on, and aids me in seeing things from Telltale's point of view.
But at the risk of grating on everyone's nerves, may I make a tiny comment on the whole 90 single-sitting direction?
Even though in reality that is a fairly long time, I've noticed that for the majority of the fanbase here, including me, time flies when playing the episodes, which shows how much we love the game and how amazing everything about it is. From the animation, the character models, dialogue, etc. You name it. Everything has been stepped up a notch and exponentially increased in quality so far. And that's saying a lot, as I hold Season One dear to my heart. So when everything is compressed into [around] ninety minutes in Season Two, each time it feels like barely half an hour has past since I started playing. Even my family, who has always watched while I played this series from the start, have exclaimed "What? It's over already? That was short..." every time I finished one of the new episodes. I try to click on everything to make the experience longer, but after experimentally timing that strategy, it really doesn't make all that much of a difference this time around. Truthfully, the old hubs and puzzles are what got me so invested in the characters and universe as a whole, and was a fresh take compared to today's traditional gameplay which relies heavily on cut scenes.
I by no means have ever designed a game, and there are probably tons of things to the process that I have no comprehension about, but maybe there is a way to satisfy both ends of the argument? For example, is there perhaps a possibility of giving us more "optional" hubs and interaction? This way, if some players do deem it to be a bore, they could skip through it. But others, such as me, could finally have the moment that we have been waiting for (since we've encountered the cabin group) to get to know everything and everyone in a clearer light.
I'm always so scared to reply to you guys like this in fear that my response might sound as if I or anyone else don't enjoy the episodes anymore, but I assure you that this is far from the case. The stories that you've created have us questioning about the mystery of the new characters, such as motivations, and that's a welcomed addition. I keep mentioning everywhere how phenomenal the tension in "A House Divided" was, because it's true. "Starved For Help" used to be my favourite, but now even that has been topped, and I applaud you guys for that. Other than the minor issues of the shorter length and gameplay that some of us are experiencing, I believe this is and will be the best season yet. The story of Clementine just keeps getting better. In the end, we don't want to come off as disrespectful or overtly criticize, as we are only trying to help you guys by giving you feedback. It's the only way we know how to.
Keep up the spectacular work! We honestly appreciate it, and I mean this in a non sarcastic way. Also, I apologize for any grammatical or repetitive mistakes. I'm sort of tired at the moment, haha.
Don't be scared of replying to out comments! I like having rational discussions about our games, and hearing you opinions on what we could do better. Just don't go posting scare-threads based on what I say ;-)
Though I think at this point, after all the comments I've made so far, there's isn't much more I can say other than we see your feedback, and if we aren't addressing it, it is mostly likely for a good reason. Not because we just don't want to.
Ah, I know what you mean by scare-threads. I've never posted one, but I did reply to one recently on impulse. Although I've now realised that it was taken out of context.
I, and I'm sure everyone else, appreciates that you took the time in responding to us. I trust you guys. And after seeing your responses, it puts my worries to rest about the whole feedback thing that's been going on in the forums.
Good luck on Episode 3 and your other future releases!
Thank you for replying! That clears up a lot of confusion. I most certainly trust you, S2 has been great so far. Hopefully you'll be able to find room for a hub or two in the next episodes, but if you don't I'm pretty sure it's for the best. Cheers!
On the topic of episode time I took the liberty of going to a few youtubers I'm subscribed too and I basically added up the time they spent on each episode, of course for a few of them you could probably minus minutes for intros but it gives an idea of the times of each episode. Key: 23.45= 23 minutes and 45 seconds.
Season 1
1) 112.73/ 111.7/ 121.02
2) 138.42/ 118.95/ 123.68
3) 138.38 / 125.78/ 123.93
4) 157.99/ 147.02/ 138.67
5) 84.95/ 89.6/ 92.07
400 Days
1) 85.25/ 89.65/ 91.12
Season 2
1) 92.1/ 95.1/ 89.34
2) 98.14/ 108.88/ 100.72
So as one can see even though S2 is shorter than some episodes in season 1 It's around the same length as 400 days and episode 5. As well episode 2 seems longer in all the cases than episode 1 for Season
Now with Season 1 I mean in episode 1 if you took away the puzzle parts of the drug store the game would be closer to S2 same with like in episode 3 if you took away the train you basically take away around 10-20 minutes depending on how long it took you to figure the train out.
Just food for thought
Sorry the numbers being squished together so basically just use the dashes as such 1) Dastalinator/Thegirlfromaus/Pewdiepie. 2) ect
The comment system is funky so meh
Numerous times ? They only did two times
The scene with Nick/Pete could be considered a time jump, I guess. I think it's silly to complain about that, though. It really was needed, unless you think watching two people wait for 12 hours or more is entertaining.
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/62091/the-game-seriously-needs-a-comeback-of-hub-areas-gameplay-time-comparison
Not exactly about hubs, but I'm curious about what your opinion with this idea which I made a while ago. Hope I'm not being an attention hound. But it's something I felt would be important to the story. Maybe in the future, perhaps?
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/62621/a-scene-i-think-should039ve-happpened-in-all-that-remains
I still want those puzzles back
[removed]
I'm not a designer, but the one thing I would have against that scene is it pretty much forces Clementine to cry about Lee. But what if I'm the person who had Clem burn Lee's photo and is roleplaying Clem as someone who has hardened herself? I would be pretty annoyed that she suddenly did something "out of character" for MY Clem.
I think whenever Clementine has emotional moments like that, it has to be tied to a dialog option or choice moment that at least implies she's going to react that way, otherwise we risk breaking player agency. And it might be a little too silly to have a "cry" or "go to sleep" option pop up on the screen at that point.
Not to mention if Clem didn't accept Nick's apology, I don't think he would offer her to sleep in his bed, but then there could also be people who don't want to sleep in his bed. I mean, who knows the last time those sheets have been washed?
Sorry if that response comes off as too negative, I don't intend it to be, it is a good story beat - for people who roleplay Clem a certain way. We like to put emotional "clem remembers lee" moments in the game, but we always have to consider how it affects player agency when we do it. I know from my own game play experience, that whenever the player character has reacted emotionally to something I didn't think they should, it's annoyed the crap out of me and ruins the experience.
Okay thanks, I wasn't thinking about choices in that discussion. Thanks for the insight though. I tend to play as hardened and "sassy" but still showing innocence in my Clementine. I cant bring myself to play as Evil Clem. Anyway, thanks for the criticism, I don't mind it being harsh. It helps with my story telling, especially since I'm working on a comic which should have the first part release sometime, hopefully soon. (I'm trying to be cryptic myself with this comic, it's not easy. I think I can finally understand you guys over at the Telltale offices.) Speaking of which, I should get working on it by now. Nice speaking with ya.
Keep up the good work over there!
I guess to each their own. I personally wasn't a fan of a few of the puzzles like the train which took me like 15 minutes to finish, though I would still say there are puzzles in season 2 like finding the beans in episode 1 or finding supplies in episode 1.
Personally I like the 2 hours-ish. I really like playing them in two sittings... Close together, but just playing an episode in one sitting is a little too, pardon the expression, orgasmic - a burst of fun followed by drawn out regret, confusion, and self-loathing. Then there's the seemingly-endless wait for the next one.
Yep, I knew that would bug some people. But alas, I don't have control over those things.
This has been an interesting read. Thanks for sharing, at the very least it shows you are here listening to your fans (yes, your fans, you make the thing we love).
Now, all I ask is this:
Use your weight and get the mods the ip ban functionality they deserve.
if we have something fun to do yeah !
but since we had already explored the shed and tried the homemade hooch, all that was left was to some how get nick to talk instead he just froze solid.