New World = New Rules?
Let this be a debate thread and be civil about differing opinions.
I got into an interesting conversation just now that involved Clementine swearing.
I said that Clem shouldn't swear, but I was replied to saying that it's "The apocalypse" and it shouldn't matter.
Now let me ask you this: Does a new threat to the world dismiss what was once right and wrong, even little things, or does the old rules still apply? Leave your opinions below. I will leave mine below soon after this is posted.
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No. The excuse: "it's the apocalypse, who cares." is a nihilist crock of shit. Traditions, standards of behavior and morals are what make us human. Otherwise, we're just feral hairless apes, and at that point who gives a damn if the human race dies out?
Everyone is f*cked up one way or another, killing humans for small portions of food isnt exactly a thing a regular human does... if you know what i mean
It ultimately comes down to the person. Some would say Its Hell on Earth and you don't need to be worried about doing what's right anymore while others think you have to do the right thing no matter the circumstances.
Each single person sees things differently so its impossible for everyone to agree on this.
I personally don't follow the " Right and Wrong" rules in the apocalypse anymore but that doesn't mean I'd be a total psychopath, Take that for what its worth.
To avoid arguments, please refrain from insults to a different opinion, please.
I can't prevent it from happening sooner or later, but I don't want one right during the beginning of the thread >.<
Need keep basic set of principles to keep yourself sane need something to follow. Very easy to lose your mind and become a twisted killer and really lose yourself. Know was myself and lost someone I respected like Lee who taught her to mature surely only alive in the morals he though her so keep them.
I think the apocalypse brings new opinions on what is now right and wrong to do but some old rules still apply. With this said, people will make up different rules to survive or they will make up different rules just because they feel the old rules don't really matter anymore. Most people still hang on to a lot of the old rules because they're holding on to what makes them human.
Doing the right thing is not a priority for me
Sorry, sorry. I'll be sure to wait a page or two before I start slinging shit around. (Sets down bucket of feces and looks down despondently)
Regardless of the state of the world, what's morally right and wrong is still what's morally right and wrong. Apocalypse or no, if you cause undue suffering to someone else, you're a dick.
That being said, there's nothing fundamentally "moral" about saying a swear word. It's just an odd custom that we have that some words are considered "bad" or "forbidden." I don't like Clementine swearing because I wanted her to retain her ban on swear words as a weird little personality quirk. But morally speaking, as long as she's not hurting anybody with her words, she could say whatever the damn fuck hell she wants in my book.
Yeah, there is a difference between pragmatism (which is necessary in order to survive) and being pointlessly cruel and inhuman.
I agree. Although there are certainly exceptions, traditions and laws/religions are what will keep us from becoming real monsters. Once we have convinced ourselves it is okay to steal another's food, how long will it be before you've convinced yourself you can steal other people's daughters?
Rules are suppose to be for the benefit of all. And I say that for as long as you have expectations of another human being to not be a complete savage towards you, then yes the rules should still apply (though obviously extenuating circumstances allow some leeway every now and then). If you have no expectations of anyone other than yourself then hey go crazy! Have fun dodging all that bad blood though.
Edit: As to Clem swearing, I don't think there's anything wrong with it as far as surprised reactions go. Now just randomly cursing people out is where I'd draw a line. That has more to do with controlling the tone of a conversation than being worried about her losing her innocence though.
Exactly. But being Pragmatic sometimes can make it seem like you're a total Dickhead or did something terrible (See The Meat Locker ). I wouldn't just go Around the country killing people for food BUT If I had to kill someone in order to protect myself or for the well-being of my people I wouldn't think twice about it, That's something some people consider selfish or being an asshole but that's just what it is. Its not about being an Asshole, Its WHY you're being an Asshole.
Well, morality should still be a thing in my opinion and should not change much if at all, but I think Clementine has matured enough to earn the right to swear. She's more cunning and level headed than most adults in the games.
"And I may not have what it takes to last for long, but that's okay. 'Cause at least I can say when the world goes to shit, I didn't let it take me down with it"-Dale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpuQjUWPPzA.
This video made me so sad. I hope you watch the show and know what was going on. If not there was a hostage who was part of a bad group. It is like in Shel's story where you either kill the boy or let him live. Dale is like Boyd who tries to defend the boy.
"Dale could... could get under your skin. He sure got under mine, because he wasn't afraid to say exactly what he thought, how he felt. That kind of honesty is rare and brave. Whenever I'd make a decision, I'd look at Dale. He'd be looking back at me with that look he had. We've all seen it one time or another. I couldn't always read him, but he could read us. He saw people for who they were. He knew things about us... the truth who we really are. In the end, he was talking about losing our humanity. He said this group was broken. The best way to honor him is to unbreak it. Set aside our differences and pull together, stop feeling sorry for ourselves and take control of our lives...our safety...our future. We're not broken. We're gonna prove him wrong. From now on... we're gonna do it his way. That is how we honor Dale."-Rick
R.I.P Dale Horvath. This basically sums up my answer.
Agreed. To me, it's not a moral issue, but rather a 'Breaking character' issue.
On the subject of the apocalypse and its "rules" itself, I don't think things actually change all that much. Killing people for no reason is still wrong, I think, and other things are still just as wrong as they were before, but the thing is that people are going to have to do unpleasant things, like killing, if they want to survive, and they may have to do it on a daily basis. There's a difference between killing someone because you don't like them, and killing that same person because he is going to kill you or someone you care about. In the apocalypse, unpleasant situations such as killing someone are going to come up quite a bit. The apocalypse is a daily struggle for survival, and I think that expecting to come through it in one piece without hurting anyone at all is a bit foolish for most people. So long as you're not hurting people simply for the sake of hurting them, then you're not breaking any "rules." You're just surviving.
On the topic of Clem swearing, I'd say it's completely understandable. It's not the apocalypse itself that makes it okay, it's the many stressful and life threatening situations that take place in it. Seeing as how Clem was forced to deal with two walkers, alone, on the bridge, her automatically saying "Shit" doesn't bother me in the slightest given how extremely dangerous it was. So long as she's not dropping F-bombs at a Kenny level, I personally don't see a problem with it.
No, all morals still apply regardless of whether the dead climb up out of their holes or not. That said, it doesn't matter if Clem swears or not. 'Swearing' is an arcane idea pre-apocalypse.
I think that even though it's the apocalypse, people still try to hold onto their morals. I would definitely Try my best to keep mine, but there will probably be slip-ups. Since Clementine is being raised in this post-apocalypse, she hasn't really had a stable relationship with anyone since Lee died. He kept her innocent enough yet strong enough to survive and he was able to scold her when she did something wrong. Now that she's on her own and is surrounded by people with different morals and lifestyles, it's hard to think what's wrong and what's right and that's what makes the game so interesting to play. You could choose to put the dog down or save it. That was a moral decision. You could choose to take the watch or leave it. You could choose to be cautious of people or welcome them blindly. Clementine considers these options because of the adults who've guided her since the beginning. Depending on how you utilized Lee to help Clem is what ultimately mattered I think. Since Lee is gone and she'd been with Christa for a year without Omid, Christa's view on things could've changed and maybe she was okay with Clem cursing every once in a while. Clem doesn't curse that much but I guess for an 11 year old, once is a lot. I know there's a lot of kids who curse in real life that young, which in my opinion is unnecessary but to them, it's not immoral at all. You just have to come at the problem with other's opinions in mind. I hope I haven't offended anyone, since I'm not trying to dis anyone with the opposite opinion as mine.
Humans need rules to survive in groups. In the case of a zombie apocalypse, with no society and laws, each survivor or group of survivors would need to establish a new set of rules to follow. Now whether they choose to cling on their morals or become cruels psychopaths it comes down to each person.
Dale was my favorite character in the show. Even if you didn't always agree with him, you still couldn't help but respect him. His death I feel was the turning point for Rick to step up and choose the higher moral ground. I miss him more than I missed Kenny.
I don't think petty stuff like swearing is "wrong". Just a social norm that people are taught to believe. So long as they're not violently raping and murdering, I don't think they're wrong in such a world. I don't support the luke/clem shipping, but it's funny to see how many people would flip their shit over someone in a post-apocalyptic world being attracted to children. Doesn't really matter, in my opinion.
He was my favorite as well... I wish he was still alive.
. I find that I like the older characters more because of their wisdom so when Dale died my new favorite character that was alive was Hershel. I found that in the end they both did what they thought was right and was willing to do whatever it took. Before Dale's death he fights to save a boy's life, before Hershel died he risked his life to try and prolong the lives of the sick in the prison. Before Chuck died he told Lee how to help Clementine survive and died saving her. I still miss Dale and I wish they didn't kill him off but I guess it was necessary for Rick to choose the morally right decisions.
Dale, Hershal, Chuck, Pete... Damn the cool old guys are dropping like flies! Of course, everyone is dropping like flies in TWD, but still.
Well, right and wrong are defended by those guys with guns. If you do illegal stuff in the modern society, armed police officers will come get you and you will be jailed, where armed guards stop you from fleeing. But in a zombie apocalypse such institutions do not exist and the only law that counts is that you don't piss off a group of guys with big guns if you are alone. But if you are in such a group that already lost its humanity then you are pretty much free to do whatever you want, swear/rob/rape/kill, just not within your own group and not against other bigger groups.
No.
There are certain things that will ALWAYS be wrong, even in the name of survival. Like killing, rape, stealing, etc.
Even though someone is forced to kill in self defense, or in protecting someone you care about, in the words of Lee: "that doesn't make it good."
In the words of Dale: "Keeping our humanity, that's a choice."
Herschel had the right idea, defend yourself if necessary, but to also help others if possible.
He gave a good example of what it means to keep one's humanity, while at the same time doing whatever is necessary to protect himself and the ones he loves.
I myself would hold on to my principles to the very best of my ability.
I would do what had to be done to protect myself and the people I care about, but I would not become a merciless savage.
When it would come to strangers, I would maintain a healthy caution of them.
But I would still help them, once I ascertained that they were trustworthy.