Well no, actually i don't.
In my opinion the first two episodes of Season2 were better than the first 2 episodes of Season1. But anyway, … moreit's impossible to decide what Season is better at the moment, because there only had been two episodes of Season2 released yet.
We were having a debate? I hate debates. Debates on the Internet are more often than not two people trying to prove he's in the right rather than what the truth might be. I thought, you know, we were having a healthy discussion where we have fun and stuff, try and see what each other's trying to say. Like Whiplash said:
But I honestly have to take that advice myself as I kinda got too personal with the discussion too... heh. I digress.
You can't bring up Duck's development in episode 3 of Season 1, or Katjaa's or Carley/Doug's or anyone else, for that matter. Episode 3 of Season 2 isn't even released yet, so it's unfair to say that we won't have any opportunity to know the other characters better in that episode.
As for the case with Carlos, what I meant to say was that the scene with him entrusting Clem with the safety of his daughter showed that he's not that bad a man compared to the rough and gruff exterior that he showed the previous night, when he ordered to lock Clem away like a prisoner AND warned her to stay away from his daughter. He could've threatened her if he wanted, but he even THANKED her after entrusting Sarah to Clem. And when they returned, he said, "Clementine must've surprised him. If she hadn't been here..." Initially, I thought that was to be taken in offense, but then I realized that he was actually grateful. Even with all the initial distrust the group had for Clementine, Carlos got to see that maybe Clementine could be trusted after all. I'd say that's development.
I know I was lumping a lot of things together in my post, but reread it again and you'll realize what I'm trying to say here is that there was almost ten minutes of fame altogether for every character whereas your season 1 characters only have their one minute of fame BEFORE EPISODE 3. Please read properly, because this is episode 1 and 2 I'm referring to. Within two episodes, Telltale's managed to done in SEASON 2 a lot BEFORE EPISODE 3, whereas in SEASON 1, Duck, Katjaa, Carley/Doug, and Ben didn't get that many conversations. That's the point I was trying to make - two episodes, lots of things done.
And also, the characters who were killed off. The reason I felt season 2's seven characters (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) worked so effectively is because they're this tight-knit group you stick with for two whole episodes without any of them killed off. Glenn was there for one episode and then he ran off before there was a lot of development. Mark got killed in the same episode when all I knew about him was that he's someone from the Airforce. Other than that, Mark occurs to me as pretty average and mediocre. There wasn't even an exchange between him and Lilly about the Airforce (where Lilly's also from). In Season 2, on the other hand, because (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) started out as a group, they get a lot of opportunities to talk to each other and thus, we get to know them better through their conversations. It's a more effective character development technique than the scattered stuff that's in season 1.
Honestly, You completely lost me here, Sorry. We were having a debate about Character development in both Season but Now you keep repeating … morethis word " Exposition" as if we were debating Which characters got more screen time.
There hasn't been a moment this Season where you GET TO KNOW any of the characters I mentioned. How in the blue hell is Carlos telling you to take care of his daughter any sign that his character is developing ? Right Know we're just kinda arguing about Three different things here so choose a topic and we'll stick with it. What do you mean Doug's character didn't have time to develop ? In Episode 3, Before his Death, You get plenty of opportunities to have chats with him aaandd I haven't seen that option YET with any of the people I mentioned.
I honestly can't find it in me to agree with any of the points you've made this far But I do respect your opinion.
The Carlos example is a bit misleading, He never sat down with Clem and apologized for his behavior like Nick did so its all assumptions, Some people can say he only told Clementine to watch Sarah because he didn't have any other choice, and does anyone have proof they are wrong ? I don't think so.
As for this, this is a debate, But a healthy one like you said. No insults, no personal attacks, and both opinions are getting their well deserve respect.
We were having a debate? I hate debates. Debates on the Internet are more often than not two people trying to prove he's in the right rather… more than what the truth might be. I thought, you know, we were having a healthy discussion where we have fun and stuff, try and see what each other's trying to say. Like Whiplash said:
But I honestly have to take that advice myself as I kinda got too personal with the discussion too... heh. I digress.
You can't bring up Duck's development in episode 3 of Season 1, or Katjaa's or Carley/Doug's or anyone else, for that matter. Episode 3 of Season 2 isn't even released yet, so it's unfair to say that we won't have any opportunity to know the other characters better in that episode.
As for the case with Carlos, what I meant to say was that the scene with him entrusting Clem with the safety of his daughter showed that he's not that bad a man compared to the rough and gruff exterior that he showed the… [view original content]
If we were just basing this on Season 2 Episode 1, I would agree.
But Season 2 Episode 2 was one of their strongest episodes, of either season. If that's a sign of things to come, Season 2 will end up being better than 1.
Still....HUBS, Telltale. They were a good thing. Bring them back.
Erm, I wouldn't call what I'm getting respect. You got all the thumbs up, mate. Well, I haven't got any thumbs down yet, so that's something I guess...
It's not that far-stretch an assumption, tbh. I mean, the contrast between "STAY AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER" and "Thanks, Clementine (for taking care of my daughter" is pretty thin, I'd say. It's not really an assumption when what I said makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Those things didn't just come out of my ass, you know? :P
Anyway, there were a lot of points you didn't deflect anyway, if you really want to treat this like a serious debate where someone wins, instead of a fun discussion where we could just walk away without getting burned.
The Carlos example is a bit misleading, He never sat down with Clem and apologized for his behavior like Nick did so its all assumptions, So… moreme people can say he only told Clementine to watch Sarah because he didn't have any other choice, and does anyone have proof they are wrong ? I don't think so.
As for this, this is a debate, But a healthy one like you said. No insults, no personal attacks, and both opinions are getting their well deserve respect.
Im not talking about the meaningless Likes-Dislikes system, I don't really give a crap about that. Im saying that I respect your opinion.
Yes, it is an assumption. Anything that can be seen in multiple ways is up to each and every single person to decide so it ultimately comes down to what the player assumes and his beliefs.
Well... Huh... If Carlos needs a favor from Clementind do you really think he'd be like " Hey you piece of shit take care of my daughter or I'll kill you" , That scene was going to play out with Happy-Nice All smiles Carlos either way.
Erm, I wouldn't call what I'm getting respect. You got all the thumbs up, mate. Well, I haven't got any thumbs down yet, so that's somethin… moreg I guess...
It's not that far-stretch an assumption, tbh. I mean, the contrast between "STAY AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER" and "Thanks, Clementine (for taking care of my daughter" is pretty thin, I'd say. It's not really an assumption when what I said makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Those things didn't just come out of my ass, you know? :P
Anyway, there were a lot of points you didn't deflect anyway, if you really want to treat this like a serious debate where someone wins, instead of a fun discussion where we could just walk away without getting burned.
Nostalgia blinds people to the reasons they take out elements that made the old game, that's why older games always seems better.
I like the central antagonist in this season. I liked it a Hell of a lot better than having multiple random people who antagonize the group. A central antagonist makes him more fearful and powerful, making the season more tense, because you know that he is a force to be reckoned with. That was the reason I loved The Stranger the most in season one out of all the antagonist: because he had a spotlight and he seemed like he had power. Yes, I LOVE the St. Johns, but they lasted one episode. They were hardly powerful or a lasting threat to the group.
Anyway, I like season two better because I'm looking at what was made better, not looking for a season one clone. Season one focused on the hardships during the beginning of the apocalypse: now that those who are inexperienced died and the strong survived, people are going to know what they are doing: Now, we have to worry more about the stronger living than normal circumstance.
You're implying that he has a manipulative side. That's also an assumption, just so you know. A normal person in his shoes could also possibly request for help but retain the distrust, maybe saying something like, "Look, just make sure she don't get into trouble, but don't do anything stupid with her." I know I'd treat a kid as stupid if I didn't know her any better. I don't like kids.
Well, multiple views is one thing, but logical deduction is another. A scientific thesis, for example, is mostly based on 'assumptions.' But if it makes enough sense and is plausible enough, it's treated as believable. There has to be a certain degree of assumption when it comes to finding out the truth. And besides, I wasn't really assuming - I was actually basing my theories on what I know so far of Carlos' character in the two episodes we've seen, which is a lot (of things known).
And again, I would like to refer back to my point about the main companions in season 2 (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) being more developed than the main companions of season 1 before episode 3 even began, and my point about the anti-climatic departure of 'Glenn-we-won't-see-you-again-because-you-died-in-the-comics', and my point about Ben not given the exposition he needed in episode 2 to make us not feel so anal about him when he makes the mistake later in episode 3, and my point about Mediocre Mark who didn't really stand out that much standing beside Ben aside from 'being in the Airforce.'
Im not talking about the meaningless Likes-Dislikes system, I don't really give a crap about that. Im saying that I respect your opinion.
… more Yes, it is an assumption. Anything that can be seen in multiple ways is up to each and every single person to decide so it ultimately comes down to what the player assumes and his beliefs.
Well... Huh... If Carlos needs a favor from Clementind do you really think he'd be like " Hey you piece of shit take care of my daughter or I'll kill you" , That scene was going to play out with Happy-Nice All smiles Carlos either way.
Wait..... Are you implying someone assuming Carlos or anyone else from the group has a darker side we don't know about isn't correct ? I've been officially mind blown.
I refer you to this line from Luke which most people agreed was a response to past events " Of course he won't Sarah, alright ? Your dad's the nicest man I know which is why he's not gonna do anything crazy, or not nice, right ? " You've interacted with these people for a few hours so I don't know how you can trust them so much, Alvin also has a dark past we don't know about but that's not important right know.
You're implying that he has a manipulative side. That's also an assumption, just so you know. A normal person in his shoes could also possib… morely request for help but retain the distrust, maybe saying something like, "Look, just make sure she don't get into trouble, but don't do anything stupid with her." I know I'd treat a kid as stupid if I didn't know her any better. I don't like kids.
Well, multiple views is one thing, but logical deduction is another. A scientific thesis, for example, is mostly based on 'assumptions.' But if it makes enough sense and is plausible enough, it's treated as believable. There has to be a certain degree of assumption when it comes to finding out the truth. And besides, I wasn't really assuming - I was actually basing my theories on what I know so far of Carlos' character in the two episodes we've seen, which is a lot (of things known).
And again, I would like to refer back to my point about the main compani… [view original content]
Okay, fine, I'll admit that it's more of a gut feeling that Carlos' group are 'good people.' Still, the fact that his words got us questioning about his personality seems like a development to me.
You're still dodging my other points btw, debater. :P
Wait..... Are you implying someone assuming Carlos or anyone else from the group has a darker side we don't know about isn't correct ? I've … morebeen officially mind blown.
I refer you to this line from Luke which most people agreed was a response to past events " Of course he won't Sarah, alright ? Your dad's the nicest man I know which is why he's not gonna do anything crazy, or not nice, right ? " You've interacted with these people for a few hours so I don't know how you can trust them so much, Alvin also has a dark past we don't know about but that's not important right know.
Not really, I've been proving to you all my points are valid, I even made you admit you don't really know who these people are so that means Im doing my job.
You haven't been able to make me take any of my words back so everything I've said stands. In your case, You found yourself thinking twice about some of the stuff you said because I gave you realistic reasons to do so, BOOYA !
Okay, fine, I'll admit that it's more of a gut feeling that Carlos' group are 'good people.' Still, the fact that his words got us questioni… moreng about his personality seems like a development to me.
You're still dodging my other points btw, debater. :P
"And again, I would like to refer back to my point about the main companions in season 2 (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) being more developed than the main companions of season 1 before episode 3 even began, and my point about the anti-climatic departure of 'Glenn-we-won't-see-you-again-because-you-died-in-the-comics', and my point about Ben not given the exposition he needed in episode 2 to make us not feel so anal about him when he makes the mistake later in episode 3, and my point about Mediocre Mark who didn't really stand out that much standing beside Ben aside from 'being in the Airforce.'"
Yeah... I haven't really seen any proving yet of many points, let alone all your points. But go ahead and boo the ya...
And seriously, why you gotta be like that? With the booya and shit? It's stupid and immature. Makes you look like you're trying to win this thing.
Not really, I've been proving to you all my points are valid, I even made you admit you don't really know who these people are so that means… more Im doing my job.
You haven't been able to make me take any of my words back so everything I've said stands. In your case, You found yourself thinking twice about some of the stuff you said because I gave you realistic reasons to do so, BOOYA !
You accused me of " Dodging your points" ( Yeah the ones you've been making for three hours ) what the hell have I been responding to then ?
As for booya, If you can't take a joke make sure you don't crack one first but since you got upset with such a small thing I'll respond to you in a similar way. I can say whatever the hell I want, you were the first one to reply to me so you started the argument, You were the first one to make a joke, Do you even know what you want or what the point of your arguing is at this point ?
Erm... what?
"And again, I would like to refer back to my point about the main companions in season 2 (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Al… morevin, Sarah) being more developed than the main companions of season 1 before episode 3 even began, and my point about the anti-climatic departure of 'Glenn-we-won't-see-you-again-because-you-died-in-the-comics', and my point about Ben not given the exposition he needed in episode 2 to make us not feel so anal about him when he makes the mistake later in episode 3, and my point about Mediocre Mark who didn't really stand out that much standing beside Ben aside from 'being in the Airforce.'"
Yeah... I haven't really seen any proving yet of many points, let alone all your points. But go ahead and boo the ya...
And seriously, why you gotta be like that? With the booya and shit? It's stupid and immature. Makes you look like you're trying to win this thing.
I'm just watching this debate from outside but damn your debate skills are refreshing even if don't agree with some points you have such depth and explain each point thoroughly so refreshing good sir flare also Viva and Saltlick but never seen you around well done
Erm... what?
"And again, I would like to refer back to my point about the main companions in season 2 (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Al… morevin, Sarah) being more developed than the main companions of season 1 before episode 3 even began, and my point about the anti-climatic departure of 'Glenn-we-won't-see-you-again-because-you-died-in-the-comics', and my point about Ben not given the exposition he needed in episode 2 to make us not feel so anal about him when he makes the mistake later in episode 3, and my point about Mediocre Mark who didn't really stand out that much standing beside Ben aside from 'being in the Airforce.'"
Yeah... I haven't really seen any proving yet of many points, let alone all your points. But go ahead and boo the ya...
And seriously, why you gotta be like that? With the booya and shit? It's stupid and immature. Makes you look like you're trying to win this thing.
That's a good question that you should ask yourself; what the hell were you responding to, exactly? Because you sure didn't prove my points as invalid. Hell, I even requoted my points for you in my last post for your convenience, being a real gentleman about it and all. And this is the kind of thanks I get?
It's a joke, okay, but it still makes you look like a stupid kid trying to win. Sure, I cracked jokes too that came off as sarcastic, but I sure didn't shout at the top of my lungs "BOOYA" in all caps like a seven year old - and no, before you even go there, my capitalized "BEFORE EPISODE 3" was like that because you kept on bringing up the later episodes of season 1 when only two episodes were released for season 2, hence being an unfair criticism.
And just so you know kid, things like "I can say whatever the hell I want" isn't helping you look any more mature. Grow up.
You accused me of " Dodging your points" ( Yeah the ones you've been making for three hours ) what the hell have I been responding to then ?… more
As for booya, If you can't take a joke make sure you don't crack one first but since you got upset with such a small thing I'll respond to you in a similar way. I can say whatever the hell I want, you were the first one to reply to me so you started the argument, You were the first one to make a joke, Do you even know what you want or what the point of your arguing is at this point ?
Thank you. At least someone is intelligent enough to recognize that my points are valid to a certain extent, even if I might be wrong. But hey, that's what a mature discussion is for, to discuss the validity of a certain subject, not to say "You're right" or "You're wrong" or "BOO FUCKING YA I WON."
I'm just watching this debate from outside but damn your debate skills are refreshing even if don't agree with some points you have such dep… moreth and explain each point thoroughly so refreshing good sir flare also Viva and Saltlick but never seen you around well done
Alright, I liked @Markd4547 's division, so I'm using that.
Gameplay: A tricky one. What is considered the gameplay of a Telltale title? Is it the amount of hubs, puzzles or free walking segments? Is it the choices and conversations? Is it the shooting and QTE sections? It's all of that, I say.
My stance on the first category is still strong. I do think hub areas were an important part of the experience back in S1 as tools for character interaction, development, pacing, world "exploring" and appreciation of the environments. There is more, but that's a wall of text for another day. Puzzles are nice to have IMO, but I can do without those. IF you're going to have a puzzle, have it fit the situation or abstain from putting it in; you already embarrassed the cabin group enough with that turbine scene .
The action segments are presented better this time around, I think, and the only shooting segment we've had was well done; you could miss, and every shot felt like it counted. RP options and choices remain good, but there have less truly difficult choices for S2 as of now. What is there is good, though, and enormous kudos for making a tough decision out of such a simple situation in House Divided.
Characters: S1 takes the cake. Just from the first two episodes, you felt like you belonged in that group. Not only that, but A New Day and the first segments of Starved for Help firmly established the characters and you got to have a decent amount of interaction with them all. Also, the illusion of choice was presented in the impossible choices, which we found out didn't really affect the outcome, but was reinforced by a consistent response from the cast to the actions and attitudes of us, the protagonist.
In S2, they did Clementine's introduction to a new group as an outsider, which was quite refreshing, since I thought that the process of integrating into said group, forming bonds of trust and sympathy (or not) would be a much more rewarding experience, especially considering our protagonist. However, nearing the middle of the season, we've got precious little time for interaction with most of these people. There's also the problem of having the interactions we did get come off as inconsistent with what we knew or had happened with x particular character.
Story: They are different ZA stories. I enjoy both the idea of the group against whatever horrors the world -not necessarily a central figure- throws at them, and I enjoy stories with a focus and with a central threat in the form of an antagonist. S2 is the latter, and whatever I may think of some aspects of it, I can call it more focused than S1's story. Unlike some, I have embraced Clem as my protagonist and pseudo avatar, and while I think it a risky move, I still think it is an amazing concept to explore.
Lee's quest for redemption and finding his way on the dawn of the end of the world was moving. He had Clementine to take care of and a dark past behind him. Clementine's "goals" may only be survival as of now, but I agree with Telltale; A coming of age story for Clementine is something I am excited to see, it's just the execution as of now that stops it from shining.
Better Written: S1. It just overall is. Character consistency, "realistic" conflict, choices that really made you wonder, a moral compass and an anchor to the whole thing in the form of Clementine... gosh. Reading Sean Vanaman's thoughts on creating Clem and making her an integral part of the story they wanted to tell was amazing. I hope TT's got a concept at least half as good for S2.
TWD is carried by the characters, the interactions of "the group", and when you have problems with the characters, you are going to have those problems affect the overall quality of the story. Also, Clem has been mishandled a little bit with her attitudes and relevance to the group. At times she is a useful new member of the group, performing tasks that are not too far fetched; at others, she makes the cabin group seem like idiots SWOOSH, SWOOSH, goes the wind turbine. Also, by the logic of Kenny's escape, Larry and Lee could both be very much alive, although that is a (relatively) minor nitpick.
TL;DR: Aww, hell naw, I didn't write all that shit for nothing.
The fact that you are taking shots at me when you yourself admit it was a response to a joke of yours doesn't speak highly of you.
" Grow up " That's the internet equivalent of realizing you're wrong and running out of things to say. You proved nothing tonight sir, I still respect your opinion which makes me wonder... Who truly is 7 years old here ? Empty worded paragraphs isn't gonna help you crawl out of this hole. All you're missing is some personall attacks and you'll probably have a stroke.
what the hell have I been responding to then ?
That's a good question that you should ask yourself; what the hell were you respondin… moreg to, exactly? Because you sure didn't prove my points as invalid. Hell, I even requoted my points for you in my last post for your convenience, being a real gentleman about it and all. And this is the kind of thanks I get?
It's a joke, okay, but it still makes you look like a stupid kid trying to win. Sure, I cracked jokes too that came off as sarcastic, but I sure didn't shout at the top of my lungs "BOOYA" in all caps like a seven year old - and no, before you even go there, my capitalized "BEFORE EPISODE 3" was like that because you kept on bringing up the later episodes of season 1 when only two episodes were released for season 2, hence being an unfair criticism.
And just so you know kid, things like "I can say whatever the hell I want" isn't helping you look any more mature. Grow up.
For example, I think Carlos and Sarah are a mine of gold in terms of storytelling and interactions with Clem that All That Remains hinted at, yet A House Divided did not provide. dat Carver scene, tho...
EDIT: Actually, we got the determinant "You're not my father, Carlos", and that little snippet with him, but that's about it.
Even freaking BRIE had her own scene in which you got to chat to her and change your mind about her a bit. Carlos , Alvin, Luke, None of those guys have had their moment.
I'm just watching this debate from outside but damn your debate skills are refreshing even if don't agree with some points you have such dep… moreth and explain each point thoroughly so refreshing good sir flare also Viva and Saltlick but never seen you around well done
Erm, empty-worded paragraphs? What the... Alright, since you're so myopic, I'll requote the whole damn thing again:
"And again, I would like to refer back to my point about the main companions in season 2 (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) being more developed than the main companions of season 1 before episode 3 even began, and my point about the anti-climatic departure of 'Glenn-we-won't-see-you-again-because-you-died-in-the-comics', and my point about Ben not given the exposition he needed in episode 2 to make us not feel so anal about him when he makes the mistake later in episode 3, and my point about Mediocre Mark who didn't really stand out that much standing beside Ben aside from 'being in the Airforce.'"
And please don't use the word "respect" in that sentence. I see no respect at all coming from that statement.
The fact that I admitted I made a harmless joke had little to do with your immature outburst. Furthermore, "dodging my points" wasn't a joke, it was a fact. For two posts in a row I reposted my points and you chose to ignore them.
"Anyway, there were a lot of points you didn't deflect"
"And again, I would like to refer back to my point"
Yeah, I think I've made it pretty clear here who the kid really is.
The fact that you are taking shots at me when you yourself admit it was a response to a joke of yours doesn't speak highly of you.
" Grow… more up " That's the internet equivalent of realizing you're wrong and running out of things to say. You proved nothing tonight sir, I still respect your opinion which makes me wonder... Who truly is 7 years old here ? Empty worded paragraphs isn't gonna help you crawl out of this hole. All you're missing is some personall attacks and you'll probably have a stroke.
Totally agree.
For example, I think Carlos and Sarah are a mine of gold in terms of storytelling and interactions with Clem that All That… more Remains hinted at, yet A House Divided did not provide. dat Carver scene, tho...
EDIT: Actually, we got the determinant "You're not my father, Carlos", and that little snippet with him, but that's about it.
Totally agree.
For example, I think Carlos and Sarah are a mine of gold in terms of storytelling and interactions with Clem that All That… more Remains hinted at, yet A House Divided did not provide. dat Carver scene, tho...
EDIT: Actually, we got the determinant "You're not my father, Carlos", and that little snippet with him, but that's about it.
Erm, empty-worded paragraphs? What the... Alright, since you're so myopic, I'll requote the whole damn thing again:
"And again, I woul… mored like to refer back to my point about the main companions in season 2 (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) being more developed than the main companions of season 1 before episode 3 even began, and my point about the anti-climatic departure of 'Glenn-we-won't-see-you-again-because-you-died-in-the-comics', and my point about Ben not given the exposition he needed in episode 2 to make us not feel so anal about him when he makes the mistake later in episode 3, and my point about Mediocre Mark who didn't really stand out that much standing beside Ben aside from 'being in the Airforce.'"
And please don't use the word "respect" in that sentence. I see no respect at all coming from that statement.
The fact that I admitted I made a harmless joke had little to do with your immature outburst. Fur… [view original content]
Am I the only one who feels wayyyyy more attached to the Season 2 cast than S1?
I mean, S1 cast was great, but I never cared so much for them (excluding Carley, Kenny, Lee and Clem), but now, with S2, I care for almost all characters, and I want to see most of them alive at the end of the Season.
Changing your opinion about a character is really a matter of subjective perspective. I changed my mind about Carlos, but that sure wouldn't qualify as a valid argument to you as much as your points would to me, now would it? I changed my mind about Nick when he came to tell me about his sad story about his mother. I changed my mind about Luke (I thought he was kind of a jerk at first). And I especially changed my mind about Rebecca when I'm reminded in episode 2 about the burdens of a pregnant mother. What do you say to that?
Indeed. In Season 1, Telltale made sure even some of the minor characters had their chance to change our opinions about them.
We found out more about Brie in 5 minutes than we know about these guys in a whole week.
For a scene, only. She is practically forgotten about until the climax, where Clem doesn't have any kind of interaction with her.
I like the concept of Sarah. As an IGN reviewer said in a recent Playing Dead: Sarah is (somewhat, understand they're obviously not a complete match) Clementine two years ago. Carlos could be seen as a more overly protective Lee. He may want the best for her little girl, but all that is just ultimately going to get her killed in the new world.
There are a dozen more possible angles to view that pair from, but with this amount of interaction and development (the amount, because as you said, there indeed is some), they feel wasted.
Still, I certainly got to know more about her than I did with Duck in two episodes. She has psychological issues as far as I can tell from what Carlos said about her special needs. I'd know because I have similar anxiety issues myself.
For a scene, only. She is practically forgotten about until the climax, where Clem doesn't have any kind of interaction with her.
I like … morethe concept of Sarah. As an IGN reviewer said in a recent Playing Dead: Sarah is (somewhat, understand they're obviously not a complete match) Clementine two years ago. Carlos could be seen as a more overly protective Lee. He may want the best for her little girl, but all that is just ultimately going to get her killed in the new world.
There are a dozen more possible angles to view that pair from, but with this amount of interaction and development (the amount, because as you said, there indeed is some), they feel wasted.
I changed my mind about Carlos... I changed my mind about Nick when he came to tell me about his sad story about his mother. I changed my mind about Luke (I thought he was kind of a jerk at first). I changed my mind about Rebecca, especially, when I'm reminded in episode 2 about the burdens of a pregnant mother.
Well, some of those twists in the characters' attitude seemed inconsistent to me, or a little too fast. Nick and Luke are okay in my book, and I count them as the two who got more consistent and more amount of development this episode, especially Nick. But yeah, if we're talking about moments to change opinions about character, S2's definitely got plenty.
Changing your opinion about a character is really a matter of subjective perspective. I changed my mind about Carlos, but that sure wouldn't… more qualify as a valid argument to you as much as your points would to me, now would it? I changed my mind about Nick when he came to tell me about his sad story about his mother. I changed my mind about Luke (I thought he was kind of a jerk at first). And I especially changed my mind about Rebecca when I'm reminded in episode 2 about the burdens of a pregnant mother. What do you say to that?
Erm, yeah, you don't get to take the high road here. I don't know what you're going on about with me changing my opinion on things, but the fact is, you were dodging again with your last post even though I resposted my points - again for the second time - for you to see. So yeah, get out of here if you want, but there's no changing the fact that you dodged, 'big man.'
I feel like Season 2 is building better than Season 1 was. There's more, and better, cliffhangers and intrigue. Season 1 was about a group of survivor's improvising (though some might call it fumbling) their way through the start of a zombie apocalypse. More than anything, Season 2 is about survival and the type of people who survive. Mainly, what I'm saying is, so far, I feel the story is tying itself together better than Season 1 was. I mean, you could take away half of Episode 2 and half of Episode 4 and you'd still have nearly the exact same story.
In better words, I feel like we won't be able to truly compare the two until Season 2 has actually, you know, finished.
You're just being biased. What do you mean "too fast"? I could easily say the same thing about season 1's characters, like Lilly pulling her pistol too damn fast on Carley when she's got nothing to go on to prove that Carley was in the wrong.
I changed my mind about Carlos... I changed my mind about Nick when he came to tell me about his sad story about his mother. I changed my mi… morend about Luke (I thought he was kind of a jerk at first). I changed my mind about Rebecca, especially, when I'm reminded in episode 2 about the burdens of a pregnant mother.
Well, some of those twists in the characters' attitude seemed inconsistent to me, or a little too fast. Nick and Luke are okay in my book, and I count them as the two who got more consistent and more amount of development this episode, especially Nick. But yeah, if we're talking about moments to change opinions about character, S2's definitely got plenty.
Surprise surprise ! He now wants to continue this argument because he finally woke up and realized this simple truth : I've made the valid points here.
You calmed down already ? No jokes ?
You've called me a kid numerous times but you certainly did enough to take that nickname away from me.
Im saying, If you wanna continue the initial argument sure. But what's the point of staying here all night insulting each other ?
Do you really enjoy when people tell you your jokes suck ?
rolls eyes
Erm, yeah, you don't get to take the high road here. I don't know what you're going on about with me changing my opinion on th… moreings, but the fact is, you were dodging again with your last post even though I resposted my points - again for the second time - for you to see. So yeah, get out of here if you want, but there's no changing the fact that you dodged, 'big man.'
Speaking of contradicting yourself, you claimed that you still had respect for my opinions in an earlier post and then you later said said that you shouldn't have to show me respect if I didn't show you any. I think I had shown you plenty of respect before by gently reminding you that you were ignoring my points.
Comments
I think episode 1 S2 was better but ep 2 S1 is my favorite episode of TWD.
Based on the first episodes of both, yes. I do think S1 is still better than S2.
S2 FTW!!!!!
Although it is a little too early to judge, Season 1 is better.
We were having a debate? I hate debates. Debates on the Internet are more often than not two people trying to prove he's in the right rather than what the truth might be. I thought, you know, we were having a healthy discussion where we have fun and stuff, try and see what each other's trying to say. Like Whiplash said:
But I honestly have to take that advice myself as I kinda got too personal with the discussion too... heh. I digress.
You can't bring up Duck's development in episode 3 of Season 1, or Katjaa's or Carley/Doug's or anyone else, for that matter. Episode 3 of Season 2 isn't even released yet, so it's unfair to say that we won't have any opportunity to know the other characters better in that episode.
As for the case with Carlos, what I meant to say was that the scene with him entrusting Clem with the safety of his daughter showed that he's not that bad a man compared to the rough and gruff exterior that he showed the previous night, when he ordered to lock Clem away like a prisoner AND warned her to stay away from his daughter. He could've threatened her if he wanted, but he even THANKED her after entrusting Sarah to Clem. And when they returned, he said, "Clementine must've surprised him. If she hadn't been here..." Initially, I thought that was to be taken in offense, but then I realized that he was actually grateful. Even with all the initial distrust the group had for Clementine, Carlos got to see that maybe Clementine could be trusted after all. I'd say that's development.
I know I was lumping a lot of things together in my post, but reread it again and you'll realize what I'm trying to say here is that there was almost ten minutes of fame altogether for every character whereas your season 1 characters only have their one minute of fame BEFORE EPISODE 3. Please read properly, because this is episode 1 and 2 I'm referring to. Within two episodes, Telltale's managed to done in SEASON 2 a lot BEFORE EPISODE 3, whereas in SEASON 1, Duck, Katjaa, Carley/Doug, and Ben didn't get that many conversations. That's the point I was trying to make - two episodes, lots of things done.
And also, the characters who were killed off. The reason I felt season 2's seven characters (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) worked so effectively is because they're this tight-knit group you stick with for two whole episodes without any of them killed off. Glenn was there for one episode and then he ran off before there was a lot of development. Mark got killed in the same episode when all I knew about him was that he's someone from the Airforce. Other than that, Mark occurs to me as pretty average and mediocre. There wasn't even an exchange between him and Lilly about the Airforce (where Lilly's also from). In Season 2, on the other hand, because (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) started out as a group, they get a lot of opportunities to talk to each other and thus, we get to know them better through their conversations. It's a more effective character development technique than the scattered stuff that's in season 1.
There. Any questions?
The Carlos example is a bit misleading, He never sat down with Clem and apologized for his behavior like Nick did so its all assumptions, Some people can say he only told Clementine to watch Sarah because he didn't have any other choice, and does anyone have proof they are wrong ? I don't think so.
As for this, this is a debate, But a healthy one like you said. No insults, no personal attacks, and both opinions are getting their well deserve respect.
If we were just basing this on Season 2 Episode 1, I would agree.
But Season 2 Episode 2 was one of their strongest episodes, of either season. If that's a sign of things to come, Season 2 will end up being better than 1.
Still....HUBS, Telltale. They were a good thing. Bring them back.
Its only been 2 episodes... Their is no way we can compare it to the finished Season 1 :P
Erm, I wouldn't call what I'm getting respect. You got all the thumbs up, mate.
Well, I haven't got any thumbs down yet, so that's something I guess...
It's not that far-stretch an assumption, tbh. I mean, the contrast between "STAY AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER" and "Thanks, Clementine (for taking care of my daughter" is pretty thin, I'd say. It's not really an assumption when what I said makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Those things didn't just come out of my ass, you know? :P
Anyway, there were a lot of points you didn't deflect anyway, if you really want to treat this like a serious debate where someone wins, instead of a fun discussion where we could just walk away without getting burned.
Im not talking about the meaningless Likes-Dislikes system, I don't really give a crap about that. Im saying that I respect your opinion.
Yes, it is an assumption. Anything that can be seen in multiple ways is up to each and every single person to decide so it ultimately comes down to what the player assumes and his beliefs.
Well... Huh... If Carlos needs a favor from Clementind do you really think he'd be like " Hey you piece of shit take care of my daughter or I'll kill you" , That scene was going to play out with Happy-Nice All smiles Carlos either way.
Story wise, I believe Season 2 is better.
Nostalgia blinds people to the reasons they take out elements that made the old game, that's why older games always seems better.
I like the central antagonist in this season. I liked it a Hell of a lot better than having multiple random people who antagonize the group. A central antagonist makes him more fearful and powerful, making the season more tense, because you know that he is a force to be reckoned with. That was the reason I loved The Stranger the most in season one out of all the antagonist: because he had a spotlight and he seemed like he had power. Yes, I LOVE the St. Johns, but they lasted one episode. They were hardly powerful or a lasting threat to the group.
Anyway, I like season two better because I'm looking at what was made better, not looking for a season one clone. Season one focused on the hardships during the beginning of the apocalypse: now that those who are inexperienced died and the strong survived, people are going to know what they are doing: Now, we have to worry more about the stronger living than normal circumstance.
You're implying that he has a manipulative side. That's also an assumption, just so you know. A normal person in his shoes could also possibly request for help but retain the distrust, maybe saying something like, "Look, just make sure she don't get into trouble, but don't do anything stupid with her." I know I'd treat a kid as stupid if I didn't know her any better. I don't like kids.
Well, multiple views is one thing, but logical deduction is another. A scientific thesis, for example, is mostly based on 'assumptions.' But if it makes enough sense and is plausible enough, it's treated as believable. There has to be a certain degree of assumption when it comes to finding out the truth. And besides, I wasn't really assuming - I was actually basing my theories on what I know so far of Carlos' character in the two episodes we've seen, which is a lot (of things known).
And again, I would like to refer back to my point about the main companions in season 2 (Nick, Luke, Carlos, Rebecca, Alvin, Sarah) being more developed than the main companions of season 1 before episode 3 even began, and my point about the anti-climatic departure of 'Glenn-we-won't-see-you-again-because-you-died-in-the-comics', and my point about Ben not given the exposition he needed in episode 2 to make us not feel so anal about him when he makes the mistake later in episode 3, and my point about Mediocre Mark who didn't really stand out that much standing beside Ben aside from 'being in the Airforce.'
Wait..... Are you implying someone assuming Carlos or anyone else from the group has a darker side we don't know about isn't correct ? I've been officially mind blown.
I refer you to this line from Luke which most people agreed was a response to past events " Of course he won't Sarah, alright ? Your dad's the nicest man I know which is why he's not gonna do anything crazy, or not nice, right ? " You've interacted with these people for a few hours so I don't know how you can trust them so much, Alvin also has a dark past we don't know about but that's not important right know.
Okay, fine, I'll admit that it's more of a gut feeling that Carlos' group are 'good people.' Still, the fact that his words got us questioning about his personality seems like a development to me.
You're still dodging my other points btw, debater. :P
Not really, I've been proving to you all my points are valid, I even made you admit you don't really know who these people are so that means Im doing my job.
You haven't been able to make me take any of my words back so everything I've said stands. In your case, You found yourself thinking twice about some of the stuff you said because I gave you realistic reasons to do so, BOOYA !
Erm... what?
Yeah... I haven't really seen any proving yet of many points, let alone all your points. But go ahead and boo the ya...
And seriously, why you gotta be like that? With the booya and shit? It's stupid and immature. Makes you look like you're trying to win this thing.
You accused me of " Dodging your points" ( Yeah the ones you've been making for three hours ) what the hell have I been responding to then ?
As for booya, If you can't take a joke make sure you don't crack one first but since you got upset with such a small thing I'll respond to you in a similar way. I can say whatever the hell I want, you were the first one to reply to me so you started the argument, You were the first one to make a joke, Do you even know what you want or what the point of your arguing is at this point ?
I'm just watching this debate from outside but damn your debate skills are refreshing even if don't agree with some points you have such depth and explain each point thoroughly so refreshing good sir flare also Viva and Saltlick but never seen you around well done
That's a good question that you should ask yourself; what the hell were you responding to, exactly? Because you sure didn't prove my points as invalid. Hell, I even requoted my points for you in my last post for your convenience, being a real gentleman about it and all. And this is the kind of thanks I get?
It's a joke, okay, but it still makes you look like a stupid kid trying to win. Sure, I cracked jokes too that came off as sarcastic, but I sure didn't shout at the top of my lungs "BOOYA" in all caps like a seven year old - and no, before you even go there, my capitalized "BEFORE EPISODE 3" was like that because you kept on bringing up the later episodes of season 1 when only two episodes were released for season 2, hence being an unfair criticism.
And just so you know kid, things like "I can say whatever the hell I want" isn't helping you look any more mature. Grow up.
Thank you. At least someone is intelligent enough to recognize that my points are valid to a certain extent, even if I might be wrong. But hey, that's what a mature discussion is for, to discuss the validity of a certain subject, not to say "You're right" or "You're wrong" or "BOO FUCKING YA I WON."
Alright, I liked @Markd4547 's division, so I'm using that.
Gameplay: A tricky one. What is considered the gameplay of a Telltale title? Is it the amount of hubs, puzzles or free walking segments? Is it the choices and conversations? Is it the shooting and QTE sections? It's all of that, I say.
My stance on the first category is still strong. I do think hub areas were an important part of the experience back in S1 as tools for character interaction, development, pacing, world "exploring" and appreciation of the environments. There is more, but that's a wall of text for another day. Puzzles are nice to have IMO, but I can do without those. IF you're going to have a puzzle, have it fit the situation or abstain from putting it in; you already embarrassed the cabin group enough with that turbine scene
.
The action segments are presented better this time around, I think, and the only shooting segment we've had was well done; you could miss, and every shot felt like it counted. RP options and choices remain good, but there have less truly difficult choices for S2 as of now. What is there is good, though, and enormous kudos for making a tough decision out of such a simple situation in House Divided.
Characters: S1 takes the cake. Just from the first two episodes, you felt like you belonged in that group. Not only that, but A New Day and the first segments of Starved for Help firmly established the characters and you got to have a decent amount of interaction with them all. Also, the illusion of choice was presented in the impossible choices, which we found out didn't really affect the outcome, but was reinforced by a consistent response from the cast to the actions and attitudes of us, the protagonist.
In S2, they did Clementine's introduction to a new group as an outsider, which was quite refreshing, since I thought that the process of integrating into said group, forming bonds of trust and sympathy (or not) would be a much more rewarding experience, especially considering our protagonist. However, nearing the middle of the season, we've got precious little time for interaction with most of these people. There's also the problem of having the interactions we did get come off as inconsistent with what we knew or had happened with x particular character.
Story: They are different ZA stories. I enjoy both the idea of the group against whatever horrors the world -not necessarily a central figure- throws at them, and I enjoy stories with a focus and with a central threat in the form of an antagonist. S2 is the latter, and whatever I may think of some aspects of it, I can call it more focused than S1's story. Unlike some, I have embraced Clem as my protagonist and pseudo avatar, and while I think it a risky move, I still think it is an amazing concept to explore.
Lee's quest for redemption and finding his way on the dawn of the end of the world was moving. He had Clementine to take care of and a dark past behind him. Clementine's "goals" may only be survival as of now, but I agree with Telltale; A coming of age story for Clementine is something I am excited to see, it's just the execution as of now that stops it from shining.
Better Written: S1. It just overall is. Character consistency, "realistic" conflict, choices that really made you wonder, a moral compass and an anchor to the whole thing in the form of Clementine... gosh. Reading Sean Vanaman's thoughts on creating Clem and making her an integral part of the story they wanted to tell was amazing. I hope TT's got a concept at least half as good for S2.
TWD is carried by the characters, the interactions of "the group", and when you have problems with the characters, you are going to have those problems affect the overall quality of the story. Also, Clem has been mishandled a little bit with her attitudes and relevance to the group. At times she is a useful new member of the group, performing tasks that are not too far fetched; at others, she makes the cabin group seem like idiots SWOOSH, SWOOSH, goes the wind turbine. Also, by the logic of Kenny's escape, Larry and Lee could both be very much alive, although that is a (relatively) minor nitpick.
TL;DR: Aww, hell naw, I didn't write all that shit for nothing.
The fact that you are taking shots at me when you yourself admit it was a response to a joke of yours doesn't speak highly of you.
" Grow up " That's the internet equivalent of realizing you're wrong and running out of things to say. You proved nothing tonight sir, I still respect your opinion which makes me wonder... Who truly is 7 years old here ? Empty worded paragraphs isn't gonna help you crawl out of this hole. All you're missing is some personall attacks and you'll probably have a stroke.
Totally agree.
For example, I think Carlos and Sarah are a mine of gold in terms of storytelling and interactions with Clem that All That Remains hinted at, yet A House Divided did not provide. dat Carver scene, tho...
EDIT: Actually, we got the determinant "You're not my father, Carlos", and that little snippet with him, but that's about it.
Watching you gentlemen discuss:
Erm, empty-worded paragraphs? What the... Alright, since you're so myopic, I'll requote the whole damn thing again:
And please don't use the word "respect" in that sentence. I see no respect at all coming from that statement.
The fact that I admitted I made a harmless joke had little to do with your immature outburst. Furthermore, "dodging my points" wasn't a joke, it was a fact. For two posts in a row I reposted my points and you chose to ignore them.
Yeah, I think I've made it pretty clear here who the kid really is.
Indeed. In Season 1, Telltale made sure even some of the minor characters had their chance to change our opinions about them.
We found out more about Brie in 5 minutes than we know about these guys in a whole week.
Actually, the part that Sarah really got to be developed was in A House Divided...
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Am I the only one who feels wayyyyy more attached to the Season 2 cast than S1?
I mean, S1 cast was great, but I never cared so much for them (excluding Carley, Kenny, Lee and Clem), but now, with S2, I care for almost all characters, and I want to see most of them alive at the end of the Season.
Changing your opinion about a character is really a matter of subjective perspective. I changed my mind about Carlos, but that sure wouldn't qualify as a valid argument to you as much as your points would to me, now would it? I changed my mind about Nick when he came to tell me about his sad story about his mother. I changed my mind about Luke (I thought he was kind of a jerk at first). And I especially changed my mind about Rebecca when I'm reminded in episode 2 about the burdens of a pregnant mother. What do you say to that?
For a scene, only. She is practically forgotten about until the climax, where Clem doesn't have any kind of interaction with her.
I like the concept of Sarah. As an IGN reviewer said in a recent Playing Dead: Sarah is (somewhat, understand they're obviously not a complete match) Clementine two years ago. Carlos could be seen as a more overly protective Lee. He may want the best for her little girl, but all that is just ultimately going to get her killed in the new world.
There are a dozen more possible angles to view that pair from, but with this amount of interaction and development (the amount, because as you said, there indeed is some), they feel wasted.
Yep. This is where the dodging begins. And the sarcastic jokes that make you like a kid. Keep it up.
Still, I certainly got to know more about her than I did with Duck in two episodes. She has psychological issues as far as I can tell from what Carlos said about her special needs. I'd know because I have similar anxiety issues myself.
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Well, some of those twists in the characters' attitude seemed inconsistent to me, or a little too fast. Nick and Luke are okay in my book, and I count them as the two who got more consistent and more amount of development this episode, especially Nick. But yeah, if we're talking about moments to change opinions about character, S2's definitely got plenty.
rolls eyes
Erm, yeah, you don't get to take the high road here. I don't know what you're going on about with me changing my opinion on things, but the fact is, you were dodging again with your last post even though I resposted my points - again for the second time - for you to see. So yeah, get out of here if you want, but there's no changing the fact that you dodged, 'big man.'
I feel like Season 2 is building better than Season 1 was. There's more, and better, cliffhangers and intrigue. Season 1 was about a group of survivor's improvising (though some might call it fumbling) their way through the start of a zombie apocalypse. More than anything, Season 2 is about survival and the type of people who survive. Mainly, what I'm saying is, so far, I feel the story is tying itself together better than Season 1 was. I mean, you could take away half of Episode 2 and half of Episode 4 and you'd still have nearly the exact same story.
In better words, I feel like we won't be able to truly compare the two until Season 2 has actually, you know, finished.
You're just being biased. What do you mean "too fast"? I could easily say the same thing about season 1's characters, like Lilly pulling her pistol too damn fast on Carley when she's got nothing to go on to prove that Carley was in the wrong.
Surprise surprise ! He now wants to continue this argument because he finally woke up and realized this simple truth : I've made the valid points here.
You calmed down already ? No jokes ?
You've called me a kid numerous times but you certainly did enough to take that nickname away from me.
Im saying, If you wanna continue the initial argument sure. But what's the point of staying here all night insulting each other ?
Do you really enjoy when people tell you your jokes suck ?
Speaking of contradicting yourself, you claimed that you still had respect for my opinions in an earlier post and then you later said said that you shouldn't have to show me respect if I didn't show you any. I think I had shown you plenty of respect before by gently reminding you that you were ignoring my points.