The vast majority of the plan was Kenny's. He wanted to bring the herd down on the compound using sound, and from there he wanted the group to fight their way out. Sarita filled in the fine details about the sound, suggesting the PA system. Jane then states that the group can cover themselves up with walker guts in order to walk through the herd, instead of having to shoot their way out.
So yes, the plan wasn't all Kenny's, but the VAST majority of it was.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ee7_j2wBQ
Watch 48:39 - 48:51. Here are his exact words:
Kenny: "Okay, so we get that turd a radio, he keeps us posted on the herd's movement. We fire up the PA thing and bring the walkers to roll over this place."
Mike: "And then what?"
Kenny: "Get some guns and shoot our way out. I don't know. Whatever we can. We improvise."
----
So what does the group actually end up doing? They have Clem fire up the PA system, they bring the herd down on the compound, they cover themselves up in walker guts in order to walk through the herd. Walking through the herd ultimately fails and the group is forced to shoot their way out/ improvise. Wow, kinda sounds a lot like Kenny's plan. Give credit where it is due.
If everyone would have removed their shackles in the van, there is a good chance that the plan could of worked. After the group gets out of the van they are met by only three guards, who are completely unassuming. They easily could have sprung on them and taken them down. From there they could have simply driven the van out of the place, though I'm sure Carver would have pursued them.
If they really wanted to execute the plan to perfection, they could have pretended to still be shackled when first getting out of the van, furthering their element of surprise.
Take a look at how close Tavia, Troy, and Bonnie were to the back doors of the truck: i.imgur.com/DbBhG4j.jpg (copy and paste the link)
If everyone would have been at the entrance ready to spring, they could have taken all three of them down. Heck, Kenny actually would have a chance to pull it off by himself.
I love Kenny's character, but he's a hot-headed dumbass. Guy couldn't just play along even back in the van he was already trying to screw things up for everybody.
Kay. Here's a breakdown of everything the group did and the name of the person who can be credited for that aspect of the plan:
-They have Clem fire up the PA system (Sarita/Rebecca/Bonnie's contribution)
-They bring the herd down on the compound (Kenny's contribution)
-They cover themselves up in walker guts in order to walk through the herd (Jane's contribution).
-Walking through the herd ultimately fails and the group is forced to shoot their way out/improvise. (No one's contribution because adding having to improve makes it not part of the plan)
How does that amount to the "VAST majority" of the plan being his? His "plan" was *completely* dependent on having Bonnie there to let them out of the pen and Jane's knowledge of how to avoid the walkers. He just didn't think far ahead enough to recognize that.
The vast majority of the plan was Kenny's. He wanted to bring the herd down on the compound using sound, and from there he wanted the group … moreto fight their way out. Sarita filled in the fine details about the sound, suggesting the PA system. Jane then states that the group can cover themselves up with walker guts in order to walk through the herd, instead of having to shoot their way out.
So yes, the plan wasn't all Kenny's, but the VAST majority of it was.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ee7_j2wBQ
Watch 48:39 - 48:51. Here are his exact words:
Kenny: "Okay, so we get that turd a radio, he keeps us posted on the herd's movement. We fire up the PA thing and bring the walkers to roll over this place."
Mike: "And then what?"
Kenny: "Get some guns and shoot our way out. I don't know. Whatever we can. We improvise."
----
So what does the group actually end up doing? They have Clem fire up the PA system, they bring th… [view original content]
I only saw one guard outside the White House when I was visiting Washington D.C. awhile ago, can't believe there was only one guard guarding that place. (/sarcasm)
As bad as it maybe sounded at the time, Kenny's plan while inside the truck would have worked.
If everyone would have removed their shackles in the van, there is a good chance that the plan could of worked. After the group gets out of the van they are met by only three guards, who are completely unassuming. They easily could have sprung on them and taken them down. From there they could have simply driven the van out of the place, though I'm sure Carver would have pursued them.
If they really wanted to execute the plan to perfection, they could have pretended to still be shackled when first getting out of the van, furthering their element of surprise.
Take a look at how close Tavia, Troy, and Bonnie were to the back doors of the truck: i.imgur.com/DbBhG4j.jpg (copy and paste the link)
If everyone would have been at the entrance ready to spring, they could have taken all three of them down. Heck, Kenny actually would have a chance to pull it off by himself.
Kenny idea wasn't good. but his ideas always seem more fantasy then realistic. At the start of ep3 Kenny untied himself, seeing the others t… morerying to stay relax as wanting to go home. he doesn't try to untie anyone else for backup and ignoring people telling him once the door will be open there will be more then one person and they would most likely have guns. he thinks he will be a hero by beating down more then one person and not count how fast a bullet flies from a gun.
"I'm gonna punch the first sonuvabitch I see. Then I'm gonna take his gun and use it to shoot the next sonuvabitch I see."
seriously if you go with the I think we should wait for a better plan Kenny says its ok and acts that Clementine is crazy. geez thanks Kenny.
There wasn't enough time for everyone to get there bindings off. Even if everyone did get there bindings off, who's going to pull this plan off? Nick and Alvin are determinant so they don't count. Rebecca is pregnant, Sarah is an oblivious little girl, Carlos' fingers are broken, Sarita... not much needs to be said about her since she doesn't believe in violence, and eleven year old girl Clem. Even though Tavia, Troy, and Bonnie were close to the doors, remember what happened when Kenny was near the doors ready for action? Troy backed into the loading dock hard which knocked Kenny out. Saying Kenny could have pulled this off by himself is just absurd. Kenny can't be near the truck doors because he'll knock himself out again so he'll have some distance from him and the doors (which would give the guards even more reaction time to shoot him). So you're saying that Kenny is going to run towards them when they open the door, disarm one of them (I doubt the other two would just stand there and let that happen), shoot the other two (because apparently the AK-47s they carry are all for show and they don't actually use it) while the rest of the camp do nothing about it?
What a flawless plan Kenny! I loved how that well-thought-out plan worked out and got us all out of the cam... oh wait.
If everyone would have removed their shackles in the van, there is a good chance that the plan could of worked. After the group gets out of … morethe van they are met by only three guards, who are completely unassuming. They easily could have sprung on them and taken them down. From there they could have simply driven the van out of the place, though I'm sure Carver would have pursued them.
If they really wanted to execute the plan to perfection, they could have pretended to still be shackled when first getting out of the van, furthering their element of surprise.
Take a look at how close Tavia, Troy, and Bonnie were to the back doors of the truck: i.imgur.com/DbBhG4j.jpg (copy and paste the link)
If everyone would have been at the entrance ready to spring, they could have taken all three of them down. Heck, Kenny actually would have a chance to pull it off by himself.
Clem firing up the PA system stemmed directly from Kenny's idea of attracting the walkers with sound. Again, Sarita immediately came up with the fine details on what device to do this with, but who honestly cares. It's not the point. The idea still stemmed directly from Kenny's idea to use sound in order to bring the herd down on the compound.
As for having to improvise, I was simply saying that it ended up working out like Kenny thought it would when he gave his initial plan. He thought they would have to improvise, and they did. Jane's contribution to the plan ultimately did not end up working out, so they had to fall back on what Kenny was saying they were going to have to do from the very beginning.
I suppose this was all was dependent on someone letting them out of the pen. Fine. The skeleton/backbone of the plan was still Kenny's.
> Give credit where it is due.
Kay. Here's a breakdown of everything the group did and the name of the person who can be credited fo… morer that aspect of the plan:
-They have Clem fire up the PA system (Sarita/Rebecca/Bonnie's contribution)
-They bring the herd down on the compound (Kenny's contribution)
-They cover themselves up in walker guts in order to walk through the herd (Jane's contribution).
-Walking through the herd ultimately fails and the group is forced to shoot their way out/improvise. (No one's contribution because adding having to improve makes it not part of the plan)
How does that amount to the "VAST majority" of the plan being his? His "plan" was *completely* dependent on having Bonnie there to let them out of the pen and Jane's knowledge of how to avoid the walkers. He just didn't think far ahead enough to recognize that.
Kenny figured out a brilliant plan, to get them out'a there and it worked out perfectly. Deal with it guys! (Arrr Matey, pirate Kenny approves! Boat, Boat, Boat)
Kenny figured out a brilliant plan, to get them out'a there and it worked out perfectly. Deal with it guys! (Arrr Matey, pirate Kenny approves! Boat, Boat, Boat)
> Again, Sarita immediately came up with the fine details on what device to do this with, but who honestly cares. It's not the point.
It most certainly is the point. It's the details that make it a plan. "We should take down those walkers" isn't a plan. "We can use this ice pick to silently kill that zombie next to the car, roll the car into the zombie next to the axe, and then use the axe to kill the remaining zombies." *That's* a plan.
> I suppose this was all was dependent on someone letting them out of the pen. Fine. The skeleton/backbone of the plan was still Kenny's.
The rough outline of the plan was Kenny's, yes. And if he had recognized that it was just a rough outline of a plan, I would have given him more credit for it. The sticking point for me is that he treated it like it was a full plan. That's *insanely* stupid.
Clem firing up the PA system stemmed directly from Kenny's idea of attracting the walkers with sound. Again, Sarita immediately came up with… more the fine details on what device to do this with, but who honestly cares. It's not the point. The idea still stemmed directly from Kenny's idea to use sound in order to bring the herd down on the compound.
As for having to improvise, I was simply saying that it ended up working out like Kenny thought it would when he gave his initial plan. He thought they would have to improvise, and they did. Jane's contribution to the plan ultimately did not end up working out, so they had to fall back on what Kenny was saying they were going to have to do from the very beginning.
I suppose this was all was dependent on someone letting them out of the pen. Fine. The skeleton/backbone of the plan was still Kenny's.
There wasn't enough time because no one was listening to a word he said. If they all would have followed his ideas from the start, they may have had enough time to remove their bindings.
Who cares if Rebecca is pregnant? Do you think this makes her entirely immobile or something? She could probably break Bonnie like a twig. Honestly all she would need to do is grab a gun. Sarah would definitely be useless, I agree with you there. Clem could definitely help though, and anyone who has played the game knows this. Carlos had a few broken fingers. Wow, I guess that meant he was totally incapable of defending himself. Except not really at all, especially since we're talking about a life or death situation. He easily could have at least tackled someone. Meanwhile we have Kenny ripping the gun away from Troy and cutting him down. You're being ridiculously narrow minded by saying this plan is undoable.
Yes, the plan MAY ultimately be foiled by Troy running into the loading dock door, but that has nothing to do with it. That isn't something anyone could have even accounted for. In theory, the plan was certainly viable.
If Kenny would have immediately disarmed Troy, he could have pulled it off. Do you really think Tavia and Bonnie would try to shoot through Troy to get to Kenny? I highly doubt it.
I'm not sure why you're being so sarcastic, we didn't get to see Kenny even try to pull the plan off considering he was practically knocked out before he could even attempt it.
There wasn't enough time for everyone to get there bindings off. Even if everyone did get there bindings off, who's going to pull this plan … moreoff? Nick and Alvin are determinant so they don't count. Rebecca is pregnant, Sarah is an oblivious little girl, Carlos' fingers are broken, Sarita... not much needs to be said about her since she doesn't believe in violence, and eleven year old girl Clem. Even though Tavia, Troy, and Bonnie were close to the doors, remember what happened when Kenny was near the doors ready for action? Troy backed into the loading dock hard which knocked Kenny out. Saying Kenny could have pulled this off by himself is just absurd. Kenny can't be near the truck doors because he'll knock himself out again so he'll have some distance from him and the doors (which would give the guards even more reaction time to shoot him). So you're saying that Kenny is going to run towards them when they open the door, disarm one of them (… [view original content]
I also know a Lillith, spelled that way. I had a neighbor named Kendal (who we sometimes used to call Ken) that was always picking fights with her. Yeah, that Lillith? She goes by Lilly.
Ever since I met her, I have a headcannon that Lilly is short for Lillith.
Of course there were other people that helped work out some of the details, but it was entirely based upon Kenny's ideas. That is why I'm not saying the whole plan was Kenny's. You're ridiculously over simplifying Kenny's contributions with that analogy. You're making it sound like he just said; "Hey guys, here's what we're going to do, we're going to escape the compound!!!". That obviously was not the case at all. Did you watch the scene again(which I provided above)? Lets take a look at his final plan once again. He wanted someone to fire up the PA system to make enough noise to bring the herd down on the compound (check), from there he wanted to gun his way out/ improvise through the herd (check, after Jane's plan falls apart). The 2nd part of the plan was dependent on someone letting them out of the pen, yes, but the fact still remains that Kenny was the catalyst/director of essentially the entire thing. Call it insanely stupid it all you want, but the group ultimately followed the plan basically to a "T". The only differences were covering themselves in walker guts and the details of someone getting them out of the pen.
> Again, Sarita immediately came up with the fine details on what device to do this with, but who honestly cares. It's not the point.
… more
It most certainly is the point. It's the details that make it a plan. "We should take down those walkers" isn't a plan. "We can use this ice pick to silently kill that zombie next to the car, roll the car into the zombie next to the axe, and then use the axe to kill the remaining zombies." *That's* a plan.
> I suppose this was all was dependent on someone letting them out of the pen. Fine. The skeleton/backbone of the plan was still Kenny's.
The rough outline of the plan was Kenny's, yes. And if he had recognized that it was just a rough outline of a plan, I would have given him more credit for it. The sticking point for me is that he treated it like it was a full plan. That's *insanely* stupid.
You're making it seem like all of Carver's guards are incompetent. Let's go back to what Mike said, "I don't think they're the sharpest guards in the world, but they're no idiots, either." You're making Kenny out to be Jason Bourne which is ridiculous. They are definitely more than aware guards. Do you remember when Troy went outside and saw the prisoners escaping. He caught Luke going for the AK-47 before Luke even had time to touch it. Troy's no slouch when it comes to reaction time and handling weapons. Also I hardly doubt Caver handed AK-47s to Bonnie and Tavia without giving them some type of training. Are you forgetting about the 10+ people in Carver's camp that armed with automatic rifles?
There wasn't enough time because no one was listening to a word he said. If they all would have followed his ideas from the start, they may … morehave had enough time to remove their bindings.
Who cares if Rebecca is pregnant? Do you think this makes her entirely immobile or something? She could probably break Bonnie like a twig. Honestly all she would need to do is grab a gun. Sarah would definitely be useless, I agree with you there. Clem could definitely help though, and anyone who has played the game knows this. Carlos had a few broken fingers. Wow, I guess that meant he was totally incapable of defending himself. Except not really at all, especially since we're talking about a life or death situation. He easily could have at least tackled someone. Meanwhile we have Kenny ripping the gun away from Troy and cutting him down. You're being ridiculously narrow minded by saying this plan is undoable.
Yes, the plan MAY ultimately be foiled … [view original content]
I also know a Lillith, spelled that way. I had a neighbor named Kendal (who we sometimes used to call Ken) that was always picking fights wi… moreth her. Yeah, that Lillith? She goes by Lilly.
Ever since I met her, I have a headcannon that Lilly is short for Lillith.
I'm not trying to say that the guards are incompetent. They simply could have been caught by the element of surprise, especially since the group would have emerged from the truck practically within an arm's reach away. When you couple that with the fact that the three of them were clearly not expecting any sort of trouble (their guns are down at their sides), the group could have sprung on them. And yes, I realize there are more guards in the compound that would hear the sounds of the scuffle and come to help. That is why the group would have to deal with the three guards quickly, which is very doable.
Bringing the up the Luke-Troy situation doesn't make sense here. Luke had zero element of surprise and Troy was already in serious business mode.
To sum this up:
I don't know if Kenny's plan would have worked or not, but neither does anyone else. To call the plan stupid or imply that it wouldn't work is fairly narrow mined. It was certainly a viable option if everyone had listened to what he was saying.
You're making it seem like all of Carver's guards are incompetent. Let's go back to what Mike said, "I don't think they're the sharpest guar… moreds in the world, but they're no idiots, either." You're making Kenny out to be Jason Bourne which is ridiculous. They are definitely more than aware guards. Do you remember when Troy went outside and saw the prisoners escaping. He caught Luke going for the AK-47 before Luke even had time to touch it. Troy's no slouch when it comes to reaction time and handling weapons. Also I hardly doubt Caver handed AK-47s to Bonnie and Tavia without giving them some type of training. Are you forgetting about the 10+ people in Carver's camp that armed with automatic rifles?
I'm willing to call him the catalyst of the plan, but not the director or mastermind or whatever. I give him full credit for the *idea* of using noise the giant herd of walkers as a distraction. But that's all he did. In fact--and I can't emphasize this enough--*that's all he thought he had to do.* Kenny had a good idea for a distraction, but the bulk of the work comes in figuring out how to implement that distraction and capitalize on it to facilitate an escape.
The analogy I used was only meant to apply to your claim that Kenny should get credit for the thing with the PA system. All Kenny suggested was they they make lots of noise. He had no idea what instrument to use to make make that happen or how the group could gain access to that instrument. Which I maintain is analogous to saying "Let's kill those walkers" without any idea how to accomplish such a feat.
Of course there were other people that helped work out some of the details, but it was entirely based upon Kenny's ideas. That is why I'm no… moret saying the whole plan was Kenny's. You're ridiculously over simplifying Kenny's contributions with that analogy. You're making it sound like he just said; "Hey guys, here's what we're going to do, we're going to escape the compound!!!". That obviously was not the case at all. Did you watch the scene again(which I provided above)? Lets take a look at his final plan once again. He wanted someone to fire up the PA system to make enough noise to bring the herd down on the compound (check), from there he wanted to gun his way out/ improvise through the herd (check, after Jane's plan falls apart). The 2nd part of the plan was dependent on someone letting them out of the pen, yes, but the fact still remains that Kenny was the catalyst/director of essentially the entire thing. Call it insanely stupid it all yo… [view original content]
He was absolutely the director. He was the one directing the entire discussion on how to go about enacting his overall plan. Its not fair to assume you know what Kenny was thinking when you have no proof. The only reason why he did not expand on his theory on how to make enough sound to draw the herd is because Sarita immediately suggested the PA system.
I don't understand why you're downplaying his contribution. He is the one who suggests using the herd as an escape in the first place. He then leads the discussion on how to bring said herd down on the compound, suggesting that they needed to do it through the use of sound. Sarita IMMEDIATELY comes up with using the PA system. Kenny then throws the plan together in an orderly fashion and states that they will have to shoot their way through the herd/ improvise. Theoretically this may not sound like the best or most ideal option, but it is in fact what the group ends up having to do.
While Kenny did not come up with all the fine details of the plan, his directing of the plan coupled with him coming up with essentially the entire structure of plan shows that he had a massive hand in putting this thing together. It is certainly not fair for people to say the whole thing was his idea, but its very reasonable to say that he deserves the most credit. If not for him, the plan would not have even been put together. He was the leading force behind it.
I'm willing to call him the catalyst of the plan, but not the director or mastermind or whatever. I give him full credit for the *idea* of u… moresing noise the giant herd of walkers as a distraction. But that's all he did. In fact--and I can't emphasize this enough--*that's all he thought he had to do.* Kenny had a good idea for a distraction, but the bulk of the work comes in figuring out how to implement that distraction and capitalize on it to facilitate an escape.
The analogy I used was only meant to apply to your claim that Kenny should get credit for the thing with the PA system. All Kenny suggested was they they make lots of noise. He had no idea what instrument to use to make make that happen or how the group could gain access to that instrument. Which I maintain is analogous to saying "Let's kill those walkers" without any idea how to accomplish such a feat.
The problem with this Kenny's plan was that he didn't elaborate on what they do after he "punches the first sonuvabitch he sees. Then take his gun and use it to shoot the next sonuvabitch he sees." Honestly, what kind of plan was that? He didn't even suggest that they should do this together, he said that he'll do it himself then asks Clem if she can help (a little girl). The problem with this plan was that Kenny didn't know how many people were going to be waiting outside the door, how far away they would be, the camps layout is (if they're going to escape then they need to know where to go), how to handle the 10+ guards heading his way with automatic rifles, etc. Don't forget that Troy, Tavia, and Bonnie have the advantage since if he Kenny can't disarm them fast enough and shoot all three of them then they'll simple counter his attack with hitting him with the butt of their rifle or they'll just shoot him.
Why didn't Kenny proceed with his plan when they were escorting them out the truck? The room that the loading dock was in was empty besides those three guards. Bonnie was way upfront and unaware, Troy was sort of at the front, and Tavia was behind him. Why didn't Kenny easily turn around quickly (they still had their guns pointing to the side and he'll still have the element of surprise since they won't expect him to do something that foolish), overpower Tavia, and shoot Troy and Bonnie? I don't know what's the difference between initiating the plan when they were in the truck and when they were in the loading dock.
I'm not trying to say that the guards are incompetent. They simply could have been caught by the element of surprise, especially since the g… moreroup would have emerged from the truck practically within an arm's reach away. When you couple that with the fact that the three of them were clearly not expecting any sort of trouble (their guns are down at their sides), the group could have sprung on them. And yes, I realize there are more guards in the compound that would hear the sounds of the scuffle and come to help. That is why the group would have to deal with the three guards quickly, which is very doable.
Bringing the up the Luke-Troy situation doesn't make sense here. Luke had zero element of surprise and Troy was already in serious business mode.
To sum this up:
I don't know if Kenny's plan would have worked or not, but neither does anyone else. To call the plan stupid or imply that it wouldn't work is fairly narrow mined. It was certainly a viable option if everyone had listened to what he was saying.
You know what, the more I think about it, I'm going to have to slightly side with you here. While I think that the plan could have very easily worked if given the opportunity, the idea by itself is simply not a good one. Its too risky. The group had no way of knowing how many guards would be waiting outside the truck. They were lucky that only three guards were there to greet them at the door. What if it would have been ten? They definitely would have been out of luck in that situation.
So in other words, I do think Kenny's plan could have worked out just fine if everyone would have listened to him, but I agree that the plan was not a good one because of the unknown risk involved.
The problem with this Kenny's plan was that he didn't elaborate on what they do after he "punches the first sonuvabitch he sees. Then take h… moreis gun and use it to shoot the next sonuvabitch he sees." Honestly, what kind of plan was that? He didn't even suggest that they should do this together, he said that he'll do it himself then asks Clem if she can help (a little girl). The problem with this plan was that Kenny didn't know how many people were going to be waiting outside the door, how far away they would be, the camps layout is (if they're going to escape then they need to know where to go), how to handle the 10+ guards heading his way with automatic rifles, etc. Don't forget that Troy, Tavia, and Bonnie have the advantage since if he Kenny can't disarm them fast enough and shoot all three of them then they'll simple counter his attack with hitting him with the butt of their rifle or they'll just shoot him.
Why didn't Kenny proceed wi… [view original content]
He didn't come up with the entire structure of the plan. He came up with the structure for half of a plan (the distraction) and then suggested that they improvise the second half (the actual escape). Forgoing any concrete plans on how to actually deal with the huge pack of walkers you're sending your way is not directing an escape plan. It's being reckless with a good idea. If he had just suggested a way we could have obtained the guns necessary to shoot our way out of the compound or even simply acknowledge that as something that needed to be addressed, then I would be willing to say that he directed the plan.
Look, I'm not trying to suggest that Kenny had a small role in plotting this escape. I'm just trying to point out that the plan was a group effort. Every contribution to it was necessary for it to work and their were people who contributed as much Kenny. Jane and Rebecca gave concrete details on how Clem could retrieve the walkie-talkies and turn on the PA system, and Jane also identified how they could get through the hoard. The plan partially failed when Carlos got shot and Sarah started freaking out, but it still seems like they were able to make their way through a decent chunk of the hoard before then. To me, it was just as much Jane and Rebecca's plan as much as it was Kenny's.
He was absolutely the director. He was the one directing the entire discussion on how to go about enacting his overall plan. Its not fair to… more assume you know what Kenny was thinking when you have no proof. The only reason why he did not expand on his theory on how to make enough sound to draw the herd is because Sarita immediately suggested the PA system.
I don't understand why you're downplaying his contribution. He is the one who suggests using the herd as an escape in the first place. He then leads the discussion on how to bring said herd down on the compound, suggesting that they needed to do it through the use of sound. Sarita IMMEDIATELY comes up with using the PA system. Kenny then throws the plan together in an orderly fashion and states that they will have to shoot their way through the herd/ improvise. Theoretically this may not sound like the best or most ideal option, but it is in fact what the group ends up having to do.
… [view original content]
Rebecca did next to nothing, not sure how she gets any credit at all. The only thing that she did was back up the fact that the PA controls were in Carver's office. The only thing Jane adds to the plan is covering themselves up in walker guts. While this was a good idea, it eventually fails and they end up doing what Kenny thought they would end up doing in the first place. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the walkie talkie plans, as they never play a part in the actual escape.
I never said that Kenny came up with the entire structure, just the vast majority of it. He came up with the idea that the herd would get them out of the compound, he came up with the idea that they would use sound in order to bring the herd. He told the group that they would probably need to improvise/ shoot their way through the herd. All of these things were true. The only things that happened outside of his plans was Bonnie letting them out of the pen, and Jane suggesting to cover themselves up in walker guts. The latter part didn't even end up working out, and they ended up having to improvise/shoot their way out just like Kenny said was going to happen from the begining. Kenny came up with the structure, and he was the overall director of everything. The only one who altered the overall outcome/structure of his plan was Bonnie.
Like I said before, without Kenny this plan does not exist. He was the integral piece. He certainly does not deserve the full credit, but he deserves a huge chunk of it.
He didn't come up with the entire structure of the plan. He came up with the structure for half of a plan (the distraction) and then suggest… moreed that they improvise the second half (the actual escape). Forgoing any concrete plans on how to actually deal with the huge pack of walkers you're sending your way is not directing an escape plan. It's being reckless with a good idea. If he had just suggested a way we could have obtained the guns necessary to shoot our way out of the compound or even simply acknowledge that as something that needed to be addressed, then I would be willing to say that he directed the plan.
Look, I'm not trying to suggest that Kenny had a small role in plotting this escape. I'm just trying to point out that the plan was a group effort. Every contribution to it was necessary for it to work and their were people who contributed as much Kenny. Jane and Rebecca gave concrete details on how Clem could retrieve the walkie-… [view original content]
Rebecca was the one who told knew how the entire PA system worked and told Clem how to use them. Jane, as well as coming up with the guts thing, was the one who showed Clem how to get up to the roof to get access to the walkie-talkie and, more importantly, Carver's office. These were both necessary for the plan to work.
Bonnie and Clem as well, even though their roles had more to do with action than planning or imparting key knowledge. Clem was actually the one who did the most work for all of this. But that's to be expected, since she was the player character.
Rebecca did next to nothing, not sure how she gets any credit at all. The only thing that she did was back up the fact that the PA controls … morewere in Carver's office. The only thing Jane adds to the plan is covering themselves up in walker guts. While this was a good idea, it eventually fails and they end up doing what Kenny thought they would end up doing in the first place. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the walkie talkie plans, as they never play a part in the actual escape.
I never said that Kenny came up with the entire structure, just the vast majority of it. He came up with the idea that the herd would get them out of the compound, he came up with the idea that they would use sound in order to bring the herd. He told the group that they would probably need to improvise/ shoot their way through the herd. All of these things were true. The only things that happened outside of his plans was Bonnie letting them out of the pen, and … [view original content]
Okay, let's envision a scenario where Kenny piped down and didn't say a word.
The result? A bunch of goofy idiots sitting around a fire staring vacantly at each other. :p Kenny's idea might have been half-baked, but at least it got the ball rolling, so to speak.
Man, I hope Kenny finds a pirate outfit in that history museum.
Then he'd only need the boat. The eyepatch and the rebellious attitude are already taken care of!
Absolutely, and I do credit him for that. I just wanted the point out though that had other people not jumped in to guide it, that ball would have rolled right over all of them.
Okay, let's envision a scenario where Kenny piped down and didn't say a word.
The result? A bunch of goofy idiots sitting around a fire… more staring vacantly at each other. :p Kenny's idea might have been half-baked, but at least it got the ball rolling, so to speak.
"...frankly I think it's because [Duck]'s as dumb as a bag of hammers." - Kenny, Season 1 Episode 1
"I love that man to death, but sometimes he's as dumb as a bag of hammers." - Katjaa, Season 1 Episode 2
When Kenny said "get some guns and shoot our way out." I thought... Now I know for sure that Duck is truely Kenny's son and not that Katjaa did it with somebody els
"...frankly I think it's because [Duck]'s as dumb as a bag of hammers." - Kenny, Season 1 Episode 1
"I love that man to death, but sometimes he's as dumb as a bag of hammers." - Katjaa, Season 1 Episode 2
Like father, like son :P
Okay, let's envision a scenario where Kenny piped down and didn't say a word.
The result? A bunch of goofy idiots sitting around a fire… more staring vacantly at each other. :p Kenny's idea might have been half-baked, but at least it got the ball rolling, so to speak.
Rebecca was the one who told knew how the entire PA system worked and told Clem how to use them. Jane, as well as coming up with the guts th… moreing, was the one who showed Clem how to get up to the roof to get access to the walkie-talkie and, more importantly, Carver's office. These were both necessary for the plan to work.
Bonnie and Clem as well, even though their roles had more to do with action than planning or imparting key knowledge. Clem was actually the one who did the most work for all of this. But that's to be expected, since she was the player character.
Absolutely, and I do credit him for that. I just wanted the point out though that had other people not jumped in to guide it, that ball would have rolled right over all of them.
Kenny calling Carver a fucker is what lost him his eye. After handing the radio to Carver he stared into Carvers eyes for a couple seconds then, like an idiot, called him a fucker. It was his own stupidity that lost him his eye. Carver gave him plenty of time to go back and stand next to Clementine.
Kenny was the one who came up with the idea to use the walkers to escape, which worked. Bonnie and Jane only added onto the idea, and Luke's… more plan lost Kenny an eye and gave Clementine (determinant) a hit to the head with a rifle.
His idea at first was reckless, yes. But still better than the "sneak past the 25 or so guards with rifles" plan.
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So yes, the plan wasn't all Kenny's, but the VAST majority of it was.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ee7_j2wBQ
Watch 48:39 - 48:51. Here are his exact words:
Kenny: "Okay, so we get that turd a radio, he keeps us posted on the herd's movement. We fire up the PA thing and bring the walkers to roll over this place."
Mike: "And then what?"
Kenny: "Get some guns and shoot our way out. I don't know. Whatever we can. We improvise."
----
So what does the group actually end up doing? They have Clem fire up the PA system, they bring the herd down on the compound, they cover themselves up in walker guts in order to walk through the herd. Walking through the herd ultimately fails and the group is forced to shoot their way out/ improvise. Wow, kinda sounds a lot like Kenny's plan. Give credit where it is due.
If they really wanted to execute the plan to perfection, they could have pretended to still be shackled when first getting out of the van, furthering their element of surprise.
Take a look at how close Tavia, Troy, and Bonnie were to the back doors of the truck: i.imgur.com/DbBhG4j.jpg (copy and paste the link)
If everyone would have been at the entrance ready to spring, they could have taken all three of them down. Heck, Kenny actually would have a chance to pull it off by himself.
Kay. Here's a breakdown of everything the group did and the name of the person who can be credited for that aspect of the plan:
-They have Clem fire up the PA system (Sarita/Rebecca/Bonnie's contribution)
-They bring the herd down on the compound (Kenny's contribution)
-They cover themselves up in walker guts in order to walk through the herd (Jane's contribution).
-Walking through the herd ultimately fails and the group is forced to shoot their way out/improvise. (No one's contribution because adding having to improve makes it not part of the plan)
How does that amount to the "VAST majority" of the plan being his? His "plan" was *completely* dependent on having Bonnie there to let them out of the pen and Jane's knowledge of how to avoid the walkers. He just didn't think far ahead enough to recognize that.
I only saw one guard outside the White House when I was visiting Washington D.C. awhile ago, can't believe there was only one guard guarding that place. (/sarcasm)
If everyone would have removed their shackles in the van, there is a good chance that the plan could of worked. After the group gets out of the van they are met by only three guards, who are completely unassuming. They easily could have sprung on them and taken them down. From there they could have simply driven the van out of the place, though I'm sure Carver would have pursued them.
If they really wanted to execute the plan to perfection, they could have pretended to still be shackled when first getting out of the van, furthering their element of surprise.
Take a look at how close Tavia, Troy, and Bonnie were to the back doors of the truck: i.imgur.com/DbBhG4j.jpg (copy and paste the link)
If everyone would have been at the entrance ready to spring, they could have taken all three of them down. Heck, Kenny actually would have a chance to pull it off by himself.
What a flawless plan Kenny! I loved how that well-thought-out plan worked out and got us all out of the cam... oh wait.
As for having to improvise, I was simply saying that it ended up working out like Kenny thought it would when he gave his initial plan. He thought they would have to improvise, and they did. Jane's contribution to the plan ultimately did not end up working out, so they had to fall back on what Kenny was saying they were going to have to do from the very beginning.
I suppose this was all was dependent on someone letting them out of the pen. Fine. The skeleton/backbone of the plan was still Kenny's.
It most certainly is the point. It's the details that make it a plan. "We should take down those walkers" isn't a plan. "We can use this ice pick to silently kill that zombie next to the car, roll the car into the zombie next to the axe, and then use the axe to kill the remaining zombies." *That's* a plan.
> I suppose this was all was dependent on someone letting them out of the pen. Fine. The skeleton/backbone of the plan was still Kenny's.
The rough outline of the plan was Kenny's, yes. And if he had recognized that it was just a rough outline of a plan, I would have given him more credit for it. The sticking point for me is that he treated it like it was a full plan. That's *insanely* stupid.
Who cares if Rebecca is pregnant? Do you think this makes her entirely immobile or something? She could probably break Bonnie like a twig. Honestly all she would need to do is grab a gun. Sarah would definitely be useless, I agree with you there. Clem could definitely help though, and anyone who has played the game knows this. Carlos had a few broken fingers. Wow, I guess that meant he was totally incapable of defending himself. Except not really at all, especially since we're talking about a life or death situation. He easily could have at least tackled someone. Meanwhile we have Kenny ripping the gun away from Troy and cutting him down. You're being ridiculously narrow minded by saying this plan is undoable.
Yes, the plan MAY ultimately be foiled by Troy running into the loading dock door, but that has nothing to do with it. That isn't something anyone could have even accounted for. In theory, the plan was certainly viable.
If Kenny would have immediately disarmed Troy, he could have pulled it off. Do you really think Tavia and Bonnie would try to shoot through Troy to get to Kenny? I highly doubt it.
I'm not sure why you're being so sarcastic, we didn't get to see Kenny even try to pull the plan off considering he was practically knocked out before he could even attempt it.
Ever since I met her, I have a headcannon that Lilly is short for Lillith.
Of course, for all we know, Nick could be short for Dominick.
Bringing the up the Luke-Troy situation doesn't make sense here. Luke had zero element of surprise and Troy was already in serious business mode.
To sum this up:
I don't know if Kenny's plan would have worked or not, but neither does anyone else. To call the plan stupid or imply that it wouldn't work is fairly narrow mined. It was certainly a viable option if everyone had listened to what he was saying.
The analogy I used was only meant to apply to your claim that Kenny should get credit for the thing with the PA system. All Kenny suggested was they they make lots of noise. He had no idea what instrument to use to make make that happen or how the group could gain access to that instrument. Which I maintain is analogous to saying "Let's kill those walkers" without any idea how to accomplish such a feat.
I don't understand why you're downplaying his contribution. He is the one who suggests using the herd as an escape in the first place. He then leads the discussion on how to bring said herd down on the compound, suggesting that they needed to do it through the use of sound. Sarita IMMEDIATELY comes up with using the PA system. Kenny then throws the plan together in an orderly fashion and states that they will have to shoot their way through the herd/ improvise. Theoretically this may not sound like the best or most ideal option, but it is in fact what the group ends up having to do.
While Kenny did not come up with all the fine details of the plan, his directing of the plan coupled with him coming up with essentially the entire structure of plan shows that he had a massive hand in putting this thing together. It is certainly not fair for people to say the whole thing was his idea, but its very reasonable to say that he deserves the most credit. If not for him, the plan would not have even been put together. He was the leading force behind it.
Why didn't Kenny proceed with his plan when they were escorting them out the truck? The room that the loading dock was in was empty besides those three guards. Bonnie was way upfront and unaware, Troy was sort of at the front, and Tavia was behind him. Why didn't Kenny easily turn around quickly (they still had their guns pointing to the side and he'll still have the element of surprise since they won't expect him to do something that foolish), overpower Tavia, and shoot Troy and Bonnie? I don't know what's the difference between initiating the plan when they were in the truck and when they were in the loading dock.
So in other words, I do think Kenny's plan could have worked out just fine if everyone would have listened to him, but I agree that the plan was not a good one because of the unknown risk involved.
Look, I'm not trying to suggest that Kenny had a small role in plotting this escape. I'm just trying to point out that the plan was a group effort. Every contribution to it was necessary for it to work and their were people who contributed as much Kenny. Jane and Rebecca gave concrete details on how Clem could retrieve the walkie-talkies and turn on the PA system, and Jane also identified how they could get through the hoard. The plan partially failed when Carlos got shot and Sarah started freaking out, but it still seems like they were able to make their way through a decent chunk of the hoard before then. To me, it was just as much Jane and Rebecca's plan as much as it was Kenny's.
I never said that Kenny came up with the entire structure, just the vast majority of it. He came up with the idea that the herd would get them out of the compound, he came up with the idea that they would use sound in order to bring the herd. He told the group that they would probably need to improvise/ shoot their way through the herd. All of these things were true. The only things that happened outside of his plans was Bonnie letting them out of the pen, and Jane suggesting to cover themselves up in walker guts. The latter part didn't even end up working out, and they ended up having to improvise/shoot their way out just like Kenny said was going to happen from the begining. Kenny came up with the structure, and he was the overall director of everything. The only one who altered the overall outcome/structure of his plan was Bonnie.
Like I said before, without Kenny this plan does not exist. He was the integral piece. He certainly does not deserve the full credit, but he deserves a huge chunk of it.
Edits: Typos all over the place.. my bad.
Then he'd only need the boat. The eyepatch and the rebellious attitude are already taken care of!
Bonnie and Clem as well, even though their roles had more to do with action than planning or imparting key knowledge. Clem was actually the one who did the most work for all of this. But that's to be expected, since she was the player character.
The result? A bunch of goofy idiots sitting around a fire staring vacantly at each other. :p Kenny's idea might have been half-baked, but at least it got the ball rolling, so to speak.
"I love that man to death, but sometimes he's as dumb as a bag of hammers." - Katjaa, Season 1 Episode 2
Like father, like son :P
It continues.