Know what I hate? Spoonfeeding
After reading the thread on "plot holes" and how most critics of the game who claim there are plot holes actually don't know what plot holes are, that made me think of something; the complaints aren't of plot holes, but of lack of information, right?
What's the deal with the criticism over that? I've legitimately seen people say "Wow, they didn't address who George was. This Episode (3) was terrible.", or "Carver didn't tell us enough about the cabin group, fuck you TTG and your shit writing!"
The best thing about narratives and stories, the ones that really draw you in and engross you and make you keep thinking about them, are the ones that make you think for yourself. A world's not a world without some mystery, some unclear things, some things to think about.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous, immature, and unnecessary to criticize TTG for not spoonfeeding its fans information. If anything, that's a sign of good writing. They want you to think about what could happen or who characters could be, they want you to connect the dots yourself, not hold your hand and write in plot information in giant neon-colored font.
What's the deal with the criticism over that? I've legitimately seen people say "Wow, they didn't address who George was. This Episode (3) was terrible.", or "Carver didn't tell us enough about the cabin group, fuck you TTG and your shit writing!"
The best thing about narratives and stories, the ones that really draw you in and engross you and make you keep thinking about them, are the ones that make you think for yourself. A world's not a world without some mystery, some unclear things, some things to think about.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous, immature, and unnecessary to criticize TTG for not spoonfeeding its fans information. If anything, that's a sign of good writing. They want you to think about what could happen or who characters could be, they want you to connect the dots yourself, not hold your hand and write in plot information in giant neon-colored font.
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And while I also appreciate and get where you're coming from with regards to spoonfeeding and connecting the dots, I'm afraid that's not good enough with regards to this particular game. Telltale needs to put more into these characters if they expect me to feel for them. That's why Season 1 was so brilliant, because the relationship that Lee had with the other characters was the most important aspect of the gameplay.
Season 1 made me want to protect Clementine no matter what. It made me feel conflicted when deciding whether to side with Kenny or Lilly. It made me simultaneously hate and feel sorry for characters like Ben. It even made the villains sympathetic, just look at Stranger. His backstory is so tragic that I can't help but feel sorry for him, despite how much I hate him.
Season 2 has, for the most part, been unable to do that. I was never really able to grow too attached to most of the cabin group. Even Luke, as much as I like him, isn't all that close to my heart. In my opinion, the closest moment Season 2 has had to that same Season 1 magic so far were Clementine's last moments with Pete, a sequence which I consider to be brilliant.
So I really can't just fill in the gaps with these new characters. I didn't need to in Season 1, so why should I have to now? And that's not to say that we know everything there is to know about the S1 characters, quite the contrary. But we knew enough about them to either care about them or to hate them, and sometimes I felt both emotions for the same character. We're now three episodes into Season 2 and I still don't feel close to most of these people. That's not my fault because I didn't "connect the dots" with them, it's Telltale's problem because they didn't flesh them out enough.
People thinking they should have full information on every single little detail is just silly and unrealistic. Every good story leaves some things to the imagination. Telltale "spoon feeding" us full information on every single little detail would just seem forced and unnatural.
In Season 1, I only had to spend 10 minutes with Clementine before my sole mission in life became protecting her no matter what.
We play in order to feel an emotional connection to the game and it's characters, that's why it has the nickname the feel train. The problem is I'm just not feeling the feels anymore. For example, when Omid died I was heartbroken, I was emotionally invested in his character and I felt that loss. But when Alvin, nick, and Carlos died, it was just meh. the only one who managed some feels was Pete. It wasn't a lack or excess of information that was the problem, I barely knew Pete, or Omid for that matter. The problem is the lack of feels, and that is what everyone is really complaining about. All the moaning about more hub levels, character development, and longer game time all comes back to the desire to get emotionally invested in the characters. Everyone is complaining about the symptoms not the problems. We want to love and hate them before we lose them but that just doesn't seem to be happening this season yet.
In short the problem is lack of feels not lack of info even if most people don't realise it yet
The worst/saddest I felt this season was when Kenny lost his eye or perhaps when Omid died, and that was within the first five minutes of S2.
I think S2 is great, but the only characters that I am totally invested in are Clem and Kenny.
Your last example has more to do with Clementine being a likable character than actual character development. At that point in the game you don't know anything about her other than her parents are probably dead and she has been surviving at her house by herself.
That isn't true of all the characters of course, and is also subject to opinion, but the cabin group has honestly been just as fleshed out as a handful of really likable characters from season one.
Edit:
5 dislikes, zero arguments proving me wrong. Go figure.
I agree, but this has nothing to do with that: the lack of information isn't "mysterious" its flipping annoying. Keeping that information from me does not in any way enhance my gaming experience. The reason that imagination is bull in this scenario is because not explaining who George is or his relationship with Alvin or Carver or whoever doesn't create any sort of significance for the player. I questioned everything I knew about Alvin as soon as I heard that he apparently murdered someone. I liked him anyway, but what about those who didn't trust him after hearing that? There is no way to investigate into the issue further, to decide things for yourself; you're really forced to like him. Forcing me to like people is NOT the way to make a choice game!
"I think it's absolutely ridiculous, immature, and unnecessary to criticize TTG for not spoonfeeding its fans information. If anything, that's a sign of good writing. They want you to think about what could happen or who characters could be, they want you to connect the dots yourself, not hold your hand and write in plot information in giant neon-colored font."
This is what I was asking for the entire time: the ABILITY to investigate for myself. The OPTION to find out more. That isn't flipping spoonfeeding, this is making a choice game more open with more content, more options to choose from, and overall making a better game. To say they 'want you to connect the dots for yourself' is ridiculous when that is what I was asking the entire time! I WANT to connect the dots for myself, that's flipping why I want the ability to investigate: I want to feel alive in the game world I am in, to immerse myself in it, to read into lore and history of things and get the full experience. I DON'T have that ability. NONE OF US do. Putting my own imagination into things takes me OUT of the game, not immerse me further into it.
I really think you need to temper your expectations a bit.
If Carver's accusations make Alvin's character a little sketchy to you, then it is what it is. Honestly though, considering the opinion is coming from Carver, that tells you all you need to know. Plus you have to remember how Alvin reacted to Nick shooting Matthew. If the guy didn't have a problem with murder he wouldn't have been upset with Nick.
I guess my point is, if the characters in Season 2 were designed to leave little to no impression on the player, why am I even playing this game anymore? I want to feel for these characters, I really do. But I don't feel much for them.
And it's especially irritating in a game where emotional connection to the characters was so important in Season 1. But as of In Harm's Way, the only characters I'm truly emotionally connected to are the ones from Season 1: Clementine, Kenny, and Christa, wherever she is.
Let me put it like this: as painful as this is for me to say, I felt nothing when Carlos died. When Carley died, however, I screamed at my computer screen. These both happened in episode 3 of each season. Both Carley and Carlos had been in the game since the first episode of their respective seasons. And yet there's still this undeniable emotional disconnect in Season 2.
I'm not trying to be critical of Telltale. I'm just speaking my mind. This is how I feel.
The chapter Faith of TWAU, which was released in October last year was brilliant, but Smoke and Mirrors wasn't as great, it all felt rushed and unclear. Also, we should have had the option to avoid that fight with Beast and reason with him, just like in the fight with Kenny.
But on the subject of needing to know everything, you're absolutely correct. In fact, I would say good sci-fi and fantasy actually depends on NOT telling the audience everything. If there are questions left unanswered and stories hinted at but not told, it gives the feeling of a world that transcends whatever given story you're involved with.
So no, I don't really care if we never learn another damn thing about why Alvin killed George. But it would have been nice to know a little bit more about Alvin. If I had, I might have felt it more when he died.
Not offering Telltale solutions or feedback and instead just saying "Wow you fucking ruined the game because *vague reason* and I won't explain how I think you should fix it" is infantile and unhelpful. If I were you to call you stupid, that's not valid criticism of your intelligence. That's being a dick.
I'll give you an example [partly because I saw it today and I SOOO loved this movie] the movie that just came out called Dohee [도희야] involves a police officer [Bae Doona, who admittedly was one of the reasons I saw it] who goes to the countryside and meets an abused girl (spoilers, if anybody likes Korean films- actually kind a big spoiler, because the movie so messed with my expectations [IE why I liked it]; also it's a CJ Movie Collage film ,which means the chances of it being distributed internationally are relatively high), I felt there was a degree of ambiguity concerning whether or not the relationship was amorous between the two, whether mutual or the girl loving the cop, but there were enough hints at both that both interpretations seemed plausible - that's a good example of leaving something open to interpretation.
To simply introduce a topic and ignore it (as in the example of The Room above), might be realistic in some regards, is not good storying [at least in my general opposition to neorealist aesthetics]
When I saw the name of this post, I had a different Idea what spoonfeeding meant.
The choices put in front of us seemed to me to be almost forced. We were "fed" the choice TTG wanted.
Kenny killing Carver.. Clem was given 3 opportinities to choose to stay or leave,, Telltale has never done that with TWD.. Even the decision to shoot or leave Lee, we only got one chance to decide.
Sarita's Arm. When the walker is biting her hand, the action slow's to slo-motion, her arm is dead center of the scene, and rather than the usual arrows to choose Arm or walker head, the hud comes up to click her arm, you actually have to notice and move the cursor to the walkers head.
It just wasnt done in the usual way and Sarita's arm is placed right in front. Alot of the plythroughs I saw, the people didnt even notice the icon on the walker.. It looks like cutting off the arm was the only option.
Maybe it's just me, but the options were much clearer in previous episodes, this last one seemed we were given our choices,
Anyway, this season is amazing, I love it but we can't deny that some characters are under developed.
And its not like I'm saying you shouldn't ever have the ability to investigate. I'm simply saying there are going to be some minor details that you will inevitably never get more insight on.