Watching him die doesn't prove anything. It'll only make Clem stronger.
It's kinda silly anyway to try and shelter her from this kind of … morestuff now, after all this time. She's seen much worse before, and she still does every day. My Lee never sugarcoated anything for her, and she did appreciate his honesty back then.
Carver meant that they are alike in the sense that they are fit to be leaders, and that they aren't afraid of making tough calls. He is right in that, but his way of leading is wrong.
If Clem can still hold onto her humanity and compassion if she were to grow up, it would be enough to prove Carver wrong.
While Carver opresses and controls the weak, Clem should seek to protect and work with them. To look after the ones she cares about.
For example, if Kenny weren't there to kill Carver, he would have come after the group again, this time after blood. He even said he was willing to kill his own kid before letting them e… [view original content]
Dropping Ben was one of those "extraordinary mistakes" I made the first time playing I also regretted doing. I didn't bring Clem along, so I… more never got her great speech. I'll always kick myself for that, but I genuinely dropped him cause of the danger he indirectly posed to the group. Nothing personal.
Clem's a leader and in a way so was carver. Right now she doesn't understand that the group will just pull her down, putting her "In harms w… moreay" now there going to an old civil war site which they talked about meeting at "amid the ruins" where she will have to leave the group "no going back". It's be best choice for Clem going forward
And the "smart choice" is to watch him get brutally murdered?
No, he was suggesting that she has something ruthless in her. And right now 75% of Clementines are leaning that way.
Clem has seen a lot of shit happen before her eyes. she was there when Lilly shot Carley, she walked through bloody places where people were… more cut into pieces to be served as a dinner, she saw a man having his head crushed by a salt-lick, she killed the stranger to save me(in my gameplay at least), she had to shoot the man (in my gameplay at least) who protected her during most of her post-apocalyptical life.
It's hard to tell man! but Clem has already lost much of her humanity during S01. but she never lost her sense of justice and her love for those who are closest to her. Carver's death really was nothing new to her at all.. That's why Carver saw potential on her. the difference is that Carver uses violence and brutality to impose his motivations and subjugate others. Clem only uses violence to defend herself and to survive in this world. she is not a psychopath.
when I first started playing s2, all I could think of was "who is going to look after clementine?" and "where is she going to go?" But after playing ep3 and seeing the title card for ep4, I feel like these questions are irrelevant, and it's more a question of "WHO is Clementine?"
Maybe your choices in earlier episodes of this season will determine how her character development pans out (for instance, if you stay and watch Kenny murder Carver, if you refuse the dying man water etc) - I really don't know! In my eyes, Clementine is a badass little girl who has ability to survive in the world... I don't see her as a murderer or someone like Carver, but I also don't think she's someone you want to mess with...
As much as I do not want to see a mentally-disturbed Clementine, I think that your choice of whether or not to watch Kenny brutalize Carver should have monumental effects on Clem's state of mind in episode 4.
Clem has seen a lot of shit happen before her eyes. she was there when Lilly shot Carley, she walked through bloody places where people were… more cut into pieces to be served as a dinner, she saw a man having his head crushed by a salt-lick, she killed the stranger to save me(in my gameplay at least), she had to shoot the man (in my gameplay at least) who protected her during most of her post-apocalyptical life.
It's hard to tell man! but Clem has already lost much of her humanity during S01. but she never lost her sense of justice and her love for those who are closest to her. Carver's death really was nothing new to her at all.. That's why Carver saw potential on her. the difference is that Carver uses violence and brutality to impose his motivations and subjugate others. Clem only uses violence to defend herself and to survive in this world. she is not a psychopath.
That's a good point! and you can be sure that I questioned myself a lot about my decision to let her watch it.
But, from my point of view, Clem reached the point of truly hate Carver by all the violence and injustice that he caused. and I think the consummation of this hatred was to see Kenny (her closest "family" person) taking the blame to protect her and being brutally beaten because of it.
Clem didn't like what she saw, of course not .. but she had enough motivations to stay there. witnessing Kenny taking his revenge and watching that evil man going away forever!
Actually I want Clem to kill Carver with just one bullet in the head before Kenny could do anything. So my Clem told Luke to shoot Carver (that's what he deserved and is necessary to protect the group from further chase), but tried to stop Kenny from beating Carver to death and did not stay to watch. Killing is one thing and killing brutally is another. Clem should learn to be strong and be determined when it comes to someone who deserves to be dead. But it'll go too far to kill anyone in Kenny's way or to stay and watch the slaughter happens, because it will make people lose necessary sympathy.
Carver is a capable man in may ways, and building a campsite itself is not a bad idea. But it's just lack of sympathy that drives him crazy and makes the campsite a hell. Being strong and tough and having leadership is good, but it does NOT mean that you should get cold blood. This is where Clem can be different with Carver.
I also made Clementine watch. The brutal beating was completely necessary, though, to destroy the brain so Carver won't come back as a walker. If I were Kenny, I also wouldn't waste a good bullet on Carver.
Carver follows Rebecca to get back his family.
Lee follows The Stranger to get back his family.
Carver throws Reggie off a building.
Lee lets Ben fall to his death. (potentially)
Carver and Lee didn't give up even in the most dire circumstances, Carver still taunting the group in his last moments, and Lee helping Clementine in his final moments.
Both want to be fathers.
Both were leaders.
Carver and Lee weren't alike in many ways, but the ways they were? Draw a scary parallel.
Clementine can see Lee in Carver. Do you know how scary that is? To see this man who salvaged you from death's doorstep now resemble this murdering monster?
Did anybody get reminded of Lee when Carver was giving his whole alpha-leader speech to Clementine? Lee dropped Ben in my playthrough and t… morehe parallels between that and Carver throwing Reggie were disturbing. Carver was like an evolved bad version of what Lee could be turning into.
And by the end of the episode I nearly agreed with Carver. I stayed and watched Kenny kill him after saying "Just shoot him", and I didn't hesitate to tear into the walker guts and smear myself. Whether its Clementine trying to talk some sense into Sarah or Carver giving the whole group a speech, the overarching theme seems to be that tough is all we got now or else we die.
No, the ending is still the same. If you agree with Carver, he looks skeptical for a second then says, "that's all he could ask for". What's creepy, though, is that it's hard to tell if Clem was lying to get on his good side or actually telling the truth.
I also made Clementine watch. The brutal beating was completely necessary, though, to destroy the brain so Carver won't come back as a walker. If I were Kenny, I also wouldn't waste a good bullet on Carver.
Hey, that's actually plausible. "Here Clem, take these, it'll help you relax." And then a nightmare ensues and then ends with zombie Lee saving her and telling her to not give up. Telltale should really look at the forums sometimes for extra story ideas.
yeah im sure that it didn't change anything, but I just wonder about carvers dialog, like maybe he was you fuckin traitor you should know better or whatever. but still yea you right we'll have to find out
No, the ending is still the same. If you agree with Carver, he looks skeptical for a second then says, "that's all he could ask for". What's… more creepy, though, is that it's hard to tell if Clem was lying to get on his good side or actually telling the truth.
carver killed people for no good reason. Kenny killed carver because carver killed people for no good reason and he was an overall bad man.
I don't think Kenny is worse than carver. because if he were, I think clem would know and a) would tell Kenny hes got a problem. or b) leave for her own safety.
I have also noticed that when they are both beating up someone (Kenny with Carver and Andrew St. John with Lee and only if you continue to beat up Andy) a member of their group tells them "that's enough" when they have clearly gone too far.
They also both met Clementine while searching a house.
Carver follows Rebecca to get back his family.
Lee follows The Stranger to get back his family.
Carver throws Reggie off a building.
Le… moree lets Ben fall to his death. (potentially)
Carver and Lee didn't give up even in the most dire circumstances, Carver still taunting the group in his last moments, and Lee helping Clementine in his final moments.
Both want to be fathers.
Both were leaders.
Carver and Lee weren't alike in many ways, but the ways they were? Draw a scary parallel.
Clementine can see Lee in Carver. Do you know how scary that is? To see this man who salvaged you from death's doorstep now resemble this murdering monster?
I rescued him. and I'm glad to have done it. I never really hated Ben, he was just a lost guy who didn't know how to survive. but he could learn like everyone else.
I wish Ben had stayed with us and to begin to develop, ceasing to be a coward and becoming a real man. would be an interesting plot!
Dropping Ben was one of those "extraordinary mistakes" I made the first time playing I also regretted doing. I didn't bring Clem along, so I… more never got her great speech. I'll always kick myself for that, but I genuinely dropped him cause of the danger he indirectly posed to the group. Nothing personal.
Yeah, but before Carver was brutally beaten by Kenny, walking away from him prompts him to say something like, "Don't walk away, I know who you are!" like he's saying Clem enjoys violence and being crazy too.
I fucking love the title of this post, just thought you should know that.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some of Clementine's choices have a ruthless or pragmatic streak. Carver is right about one thing "tough is all they've got now". The group is hurting (physical and mentally) and in a precarious situation.
Thank you, haha. I thought the title was a clever way to foreshadow what Carver said to Clem into Episode 4. I personally have no objection to Clem having more evil choices too.
I fucking love the title of this post, just thought you should know that.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some of Clementine's choices hav… moree a ruthless or pragmatic streak. Carver is right about one thing "tough is all they've got now". The group is hurting (physical and mentally) and in a precarious situation.
Yeah he was also hinting at that but Clementine isn't a big fan of unnecessary violence, i really doubt that she is the type of person to kill people unless it is a life or death situation unlike Carver who kills innocent people like Reggie for no other reason other than "being weak of character".
Yeah, but before Carver was brutally beaten by Kenny, walking away from him prompts him to say something like, "Don't walk away, I know who you are!" like he's saying Clem enjoys violence and being crazy too.
Eh, evil is too harsh a word, IMO. Evil implies that her goal is to inflict misery and suffering on innocent people. That's way out of character, even if Clem is played as a jerkass pragmatist.
I think that ruthless is probably a better description.
Thank you, haha. I thought the title was a clever way to foreshadow what Carver said to Clem into Episode 4. I personally have no objection to Clem having more evil choices too.
Eh, evil is too harsh a word, IMO. Evil implies that her goal is to inflict misery and suffering on innocent people. That's way out of cha… moreracter, even if Clem is played as a jerkass pragmatist.
I think that ruthless is probably a better description.
Well, that's debatable. Carver stopped beating Kenny when Bonnie warned him about a breach in their defenses, when something life threatening came along. What if Bonnie hadn't been there, who would have stopped Carver? Would he have stopped himself? Carver might have beaten Kenny to death.
I still think Carver is darker than Kenny. But after episode 3's ending, I think Kenny might not be far behind.
I have also noticed that when they are both beating up someone (Kenny with Carver and Andrew St. John with Lee and only if you continue to b… moreeat up Andy) a member of their group tells them "that's enough" when they have clearly gone too far.
They also both met Clementine while searching a house.
I agree with this 100%! Clem is not a kid anymore, and I don't think any cognitive or moral devlopment theories apply to her anymore. Clementine could be immoral and ruthless, and that'd be understandable after all what's she been trough, but she's not. It doesn't get to her, not in the sense of "If they do it, I must do it too" and that's because Clementine matured early. Clementine is smart, she knows her own boundaries and she's developed her own sense of values.
Unless other times Clementine has witnessed murders, she's now fully aware of the situation, having experienced Carver's tyranny in first person. The guy was a real villain, and he deserved punishment. It's comprehensible for people like Rebecca, who lost her husband and was persecuted by Carver, and Kenny, who was brutally beaten to the point he lost an eye, to punish Carver. As the achievement for that scene says "Rehabilitated-Gave what you got." it was justice for me. Was it necessary for Clementine to watch, though? Probably not, but if it means it will toughen her up, then she's welcome to stay by all means.
Clem has seen a lot of shit happen before her eyes. she was there when Lilly shot Carley, she walked through bloody places where people were… more cut into pieces to be served as a dinner, she saw a man having his head crushed by a salt-lick, she killed the stranger to save me(in my gameplay at least), she had to shoot the man (in my gameplay at least) who protected her during most of her post-apocalyptical life.
It's hard to tell man! but Clem has already lost much of her humanity during S01. but she never lost her sense of justice and her love for those who are closest to her. Carver's death really was nothing new to her at all.. That's why Carver saw potential on her. the difference is that Carver uses violence and brutality to impose his motivations and subjugate others. Clem only uses violence to defend herself and to survive in this world. she is not a psychopath.
Comments
I think we might be seeing some evil clem soon.
"Sometimes, you gotta play a role... even if it means people you love hate you for it." Peter Joseph Randall
What great speech did Clem give? When does this happen?
"I like Ben, he's nice. We don't leave friends. Thats my vote." (Parapharasing)
It's right before the bell tower/ clock tower part in 104. After you go to Crawford and get the battery.
Those play on words with the episode names always make me cringe
No... I don't want to think about this... I just looked up a bunch of creepypastas, and I'm supposed to go to sleep now T_____T
i didn't watch him get beaten because i knew kenny would get the job done. no use sparing the wicked in their world.
yeah what happens if you agreenwith him???? does it change anything at the end?? can yall out a link?
Witnessing a brutal situation and choosing to witness a brutal situation are two different things, she didn't have to see Carver get murdered.
when I first started playing s2, all I could think of was "who is going to look after clementine?" and "where is she going to go?" But after playing ep3 and seeing the title card for ep4, I feel like these questions are irrelevant, and it's more a question of "WHO is Clementine?"
Maybe your choices in earlier episodes of this season will determine how her character development pans out (for instance, if you stay and watch Kenny murder Carver, if you refuse the dying man water etc) - I really don't know! In my eyes, Clementine is a badass little girl who has ability to survive in the world... I don't see her as a murderer or someone like Carver, but I also don't think she's someone you want to mess with...
that would be interesting, i wonder if that choice would affect Clem's dialogue options in episode 4?
and that is why Clem is a true badass. She will not let the harsh realities of the ZA destroy her integrity.
That's a good point! and you can be sure that I questioned myself a lot about my decision to let her watch it.
But, from my point of view, Clem reached the point of truly hate Carver by all the violence and injustice that he caused. and I think the consummation of this hatred was to see Kenny (her closest "family" person) taking the blame to protect her and being brutally beaten because of it.
Clem didn't like what she saw, of course not .. but she had enough motivations to stay there. witnessing Kenny taking his revenge and watching that evil man going away forever!
I'm pretty sure Carver is going to become the devil to Lee's angel, at least within Clementine's mind.
Actually I want Clem to kill Carver with just one bullet in the head before Kenny could do anything. So my Clem told Luke to shoot Carver (that's what he deserved and is necessary to protect the group from further chase), but tried to stop Kenny from beating Carver to death and did not stay to watch. Killing is one thing and killing brutally is another. Clem should learn to be strong and be determined when it comes to someone who deserves to be dead. But it'll go too far to kill anyone in Kenny's way or to stay and watch the slaughter happens, because it will make people lose necessary sympathy.
Carver is a capable man in may ways, and building a campsite itself is not a bad idea. But it's just lack of sympathy that drives him crazy and makes the campsite a hell. Being strong and tough and having leadership is good, but it does NOT mean that you should get cold blood. This is where Clem can be different with Carver.
I also made Clementine watch. The brutal beating was completely necessary, though, to destroy the brain so Carver won't come back as a walker. If I were Kenny, I also wouldn't waste a good bullet on Carver.
Carver follows Rebecca to get back his family.
Lee follows The Stranger to get back his family.
Carver throws Reggie off a building.
Lee lets Ben fall to his death. (potentially)
Carver and Lee didn't give up even in the most dire circumstances, Carver still taunting the group in his last moments, and Lee helping Clementine in his final moments.
Both want to be fathers.
Both were leaders.
Carver and Lee weren't alike in many ways, but the ways they were? Draw a scary parallel.
Clementine can see Lee in Carver. Do you know how scary that is? To see this man who salvaged you from death's doorstep now resemble this murdering monster?
No, the ending is still the same. If you agree with Carver, he looks skeptical for a second then says, "that's all he could ask for". What's creepy, though, is that it's hard to tell if Clem was lying to get on his good side or actually telling the truth.
really? at this point Kenny is far darker than Carver. Carver always at least ended things humanely and quickly. He didn't beat people to death.
Click here
Hey, that's actually plausible. "Here Clem, take these, it'll help you relax." And then a nightmare ensues and then ends with zombie Lee saving her and telling her to not give up. Telltale should really look at the forums sometimes for extra story ideas.
yeah im sure that it didn't change anything, but I just wonder about carvers dialog, like maybe he was you fuckin traitor you should know better or whatever. but still yea you right we'll have to find out
carver killed people for no good reason. Kenny killed carver because carver killed people for no good reason and he was an overall bad man.
I don't think Kenny is worse than carver. because if he were, I think clem would know and a) would tell Kenny hes got a problem. or b) leave for her own safety.
I have also noticed that when they are both beating up someone (Kenny with Carver and Andrew St. John with Lee and only if you continue to beat up Andy) a member of their group tells them "that's enough" when they have clearly gone too far.
They also both met Clementine while searching a house.
ok. i ignored...
I rescued him. and I'm glad to have done it. I never really hated Ben, he was just a lost guy who didn't know how to survive. but he could learn like everyone else.
I wish Ben had stayed with us and to begin to develop, ceasing to be a coward and becoming a real man. would be an interesting plot!
Yeah, but before Carver was brutally beaten by Kenny, walking away from him prompts him to say something like, "Don't walk away, I know who you are!" like he's saying Clem enjoys violence and being crazy too.
I fucking love the title of this post, just thought you should know that.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some of Clementine's choices have a ruthless or pragmatic streak. Carver is right about one thing "tough is all they've got now". The group is hurting (physical and mentally) and in a precarious situation.
Thank you, haha. I thought the title was a clever way to foreshadow what Carver said to Clem into Episode 4. I personally have no objection to Clem having more evil choices too.
Yeah he was also hinting at that but Clementine isn't a big fan of unnecessary violence, i really doubt that she is the type of person to kill people unless it is a life or death situation unlike Carver who kills innocent people like Reggie for no other reason other than "being weak of character".
Eh, evil is too harsh a word, IMO. Evil implies that her goal is to inflict misery and suffering on innocent people. That's way out of character, even if Clem is played as a jerkass pragmatist.
I think that ruthless is probably a better description.
Alright, more ruthless then.
hope Clementine doesn't get depressed or anything, unless she already is
Just a friendly reminder how our Clemmy watched Kenny bashing Carver's skull in...
Well, that's debatable. Carver stopped beating Kenny when Bonnie warned him about a breach in their defenses, when something life threatening came along. What if Bonnie hadn't been there, who would have stopped Carver? Would he have stopped himself? Carver might have beaten Kenny to death.
I still think Carver is darker than Kenny. But after episode 3's ending, I think Kenny might not be far behind.
Carley says that to Lee. and the parallels here are getting scary. Let's try to find some more!
USMC you joined on 4/20?
AH shit
In my walkthrough Lee was a legend, he was funny, nice, fashionable and so cool, I wish he lived.
I agree with this 100%! Clem is not a kid anymore, and I don't think any cognitive or moral devlopment theories apply to her anymore. Clementine could be immoral and ruthless, and that'd be understandable after all what's she been trough, but she's not. It doesn't get to her, not in the sense of "If they do it, I must do it too" and that's because Clementine matured early. Clementine is smart, she knows her own boundaries and she's developed her own sense of values.
Unless other times Clementine has witnessed murders, she's now fully aware of the situation, having experienced Carver's tyranny in first person. The guy was a real villain, and he deserved punishment. It's comprehensible for people like Rebecca, who lost her husband and was persecuted by Carver, and Kenny, who was brutally beaten to the point he lost an eye, to punish Carver. As the achievement for that scene says "Rehabilitated-Gave what you got." it was justice for me. Was it necessary for Clementine to watch, though? Probably not, but if it means it will toughen her up, then she's welcome to stay by all means.