well the crooked man lasted five episodes and carver only lasted two soooooo do the math, the major villain in the walking dead is and always will be 1.zombies 2. people making terrible choices cause zombies
The Crooked Man. I wasn't scared of either of the villains, but with The Crooked Man it was because I'm the fucking Big Bad Wolf motherfucker, but with Carver it was just... Eh.
See, I was slightly scared of The Stranger, and watched my words around him, and I played as a full-grown man.
In S2E2, I was scared of Carver. I didn't insult him, even when he just came walking up to the house, as I felt like he could kill me in a second. Episode 3 I basically told him to go fuck himself at every opportunity I had. He turned from this villain that might be bad or might be good, yet still dangerous, to just a psychopath that's so cliche he wasn't even scary.
right its just business, they don't see it as bad they just see it as just business. and also he was clearly denying he did anything bad because he ordered it, so he didn't do anything bad.
Definitely the Crooked Man. Carver's strong, but he had no chance of surviving the apocalypse. He was too showy. He was bound to be killed eventually. The Crooked Man didn't even try to directly kill Bigby; he tried to talk his way out of the situation and leave with his hands clean, and he almost succeeded. If Nerissa hadn't walked in, he probably would've been released due to insufficient evidence.
Depends on which Carver do you mean. If you mean Carver from Episode 2, then I kinda like him more that Crooked Man. But if you mean Carver from Episode 3, then Crooked Man is definitely the winner here.
Crooked Man was a simple man, not a fable, someone that could rule Fabletown without special powers, who had powerful fables working under him. He was very intelligent, that he clearly tricked them and made them work for him. He made everything right according to his plans. That's why he didn't kill, but made another do the job. He played it nicely, so he doesn't get the blame.
If he killed Bigby, he'd have had no one on his side by then since Bigby already took them out. Besides, he obviously preferred to prove himself innocent infront of the public, which he tried extremely well and nearly worked if Nerissa didn't interfere.
Carver by far. Crooked man is not a person who kills people in episode 5 the crooked man did not shoot Bigby when he had the chance. Carver … morekilled Reggie, Carver will kill anyone how messes up or to mess with him, Crooked man does not kill he send people to kill them he cant even kill Bigby .
I feel that the Crooked Man was the superior villain overall, but only due to Carver's poor characterisation in Episode 3. Had Carver behaved more consistently between Episode 2 and 3, then they would have been in equal footing.
The Crooked Man. I feel like the Crooked Man is an example of how Carver should of been as a villain. He was cool in episode 2, but in episode 3 he was an abusive fuck. Plus, the Crooked Man would of gotten away with it if it wasn't for Nerissa.
meh, that is what the crooked man said to the REALLY not legitimate jury, i don't think he actually believed that bullshit, look at what he has done, for god's sake, he KNOWS what he has done, he knows it's bad
i agree fully, carver could have been an amazing, deep, and in the morally grey zone, instead we got...what we got, which isn't very impressivle, and toally in the black zone of morallity
Crooked Man. If Carver wasn't drastically changed into a psycho path without any development at all, i'd pick him. His performance as a villain in 203 was poorly written. Still a good episode.
The Crooked Man i would of Chosen Carver but since Telltale hired a Monkey to write Episode 3 and kill him off before he fully developed we would never know if Carver was better or worst.
crooked man easilly, he is much more complex than carver, plus carver's morals are absurdly twisted, the fact carver dosen't see himself as … morea villian is shocking, and quite unrealistic, i don't think the crooked really bothers to justify his actions to himself, so in a way he has more logical morals
Crooked Man was a simple man, not a fable, someone that could rule Fabletown without special powers, who had powerful fables working under h… moreim. He was very intelligent, that he clearly tricked them and made them work for him. He made everything right according to his plans. That's why he didn't kill, but made another do the job. He played it nicely, so he doesn't get the blame.
If he killed Bigby, he'd have had no one on his side by then since Bigby already took them out. Besides, he obviously preferred to prove himself innocent infront of the public, which he tried extremely well and nearly worked if Nerissa didn't interfere.
The Crooked Man is fascinating because he works both as a literal villain and as a symbolic cancer of everything wrong with Fabletown.
As a pure villain he was incredibly smart and incredibly cautious. No one so much as got a glimpse of the man unless you were in a his inner circle. He worked through legitimate and illegal fronts to dig his claws into the very structure of the town. He would dig people into debt and practically enslave them, He mostly stayed in a magic fortress that had an entrance that moved around and he hired loyal psychopaths like Bloody Mary and Jersey Devil to enforce his pure strength if necessary.
What makes Crooked Man such a cool antagonist is how he symbolically represents all the problems plaguing Fabletown. Practically every resident is incredibly unhappy in their current surroundings. Some are truly doing it rough like Grendel, Holly and Faith, some are trying to squeeze a living on a day to day basis, like Woody, Jack and Toad and others are used to living in royalty and don't adapt well to mundane surroundings (Beast and Beauty). In addition to this, Fabletown's government structure is either purely corrupt (Bluebeard), incompetently run (Icabod Crane's tenure), over worked to the point that not enough can be done (Snow White) or not capable of providing a service that benefits every citizen (Bigby's sheriff job).
So along comes The Crooked Man. As I said, I love the character not for his speeches or his actions. But for the fact that man was only able to become such a deadly cancer because the system cried out for him. Suddenly people who want money can get and continue living as they please (again. Beauty and Beast). Fables who have no place in the world find a purpose and use that fulfills them (Tiny Tim and Aunty Greenleaf). Incredibly dangerous Fables that could cause massive murder are kept under a strict leash that mostly protects society (Bloody Mary would probably slaughter an entire city were it not for Crooked Man). Even Fables that would be struggling to survive find a warped and mostly safe way to survive because the Crooked Man needs it (Georgie and Vivian, for all their faults were pretty much a legit business before the bodies started piling up).
So in summary I really loved The Crooked Man, Not just because he looked cool and had a great voice actor. But because his very existence is the gaping hole of despair and nothingness that Bigby and Snow are fighting against the entire season.
I'll go with Carver simply because I prefer the more "do it myself" type of villain. Carver did some sh!tty things and he had no problem telling you he did it, and would gladly do it again. I still liked TCM though because that type of character fit more with the story in TWAU. My biggest complaint with Carver is that he was killed off too soon, whereas TCM not having as much screen time is more befitting of his character.
I think the basis of the debate should be categorized by:
*Complexity
*Brutality
*Ruthlessness
*Power
*Persuasion
Edit:*Cunning
Edit: The correlation between Brutality and Ruthlessness may be a bit muddled, "Brutal" describes an act or person that is both cruel and very violent. "Ruthless" describes an act or person that is cold or cruel, but this act or person need not be violent. A ruthless person believe that the ends justifies the means, and is willing to do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her objective. The motivation--to achieve an ambition--must be kept in mind when understanding the word "ruthless". On the other hand, "brutal" does not include any motivation--it merely describes the kind of violence.
1) Complexity: The thing we can agree on the Crooked man is that he is cunning. He is both a strategist and a negotiator. He is very manipulative in his words. Although he may have no combat experience or external physique, his other traits make up for it and make him a deadly force to be reckon with.
2) Brutality: His rating on brutality isn't very high. He's just the boss; the man who pulls the strings. When he does fight an opponent, he seems to prefer to fight with words or a quick death to avoid conflict that may give his opponent a chance. However, he definitely has no conscious when he watches brutal actions taking place. One thing for sure, he has a heart of stone. He won't hesitate to "take care" of something if it greatly benefits him.
3) Ruthlessness: I say he's about half and half. The Crooked Man is an organized crime lord. He is ruthless if it needs to be done, but he's merciless of executing people or hiring thugs to do his job. However, he isn't cruel. Throughout the game, the death of "his" victims are quick. He doesn't seem to get a sensation out of it; unlike his bodyguard "Bloody Mary."
4) Power: He pretty much has the power of fear, intimidation on his side. His wealth and riches buys him that power needed to control Fabletown. If he needs something done, there would be nearly to no argument. Also, many see his power as a blessing as he has jobs for them and black market items is given for cheaper. He can control people with both fear and the misdirection of kindness.
5) Persuasion: The Crooked Man isn't stupid. His cunning makes him a born diplomat. His power of fear, intimidation and the loyalty of some Fables causes him to be a very persuasive man. Also, he's a strategist. He knows which opponent he should be concerned about. When that problem occurs, he studies them; knowing what his/her strong points and weak points are. He exploits them and manipulates them towards his favor.
Carver
1) Complexity: This man has strong confidence in his leadership and has a cold heart. This man can kill a person without hesitation. He's a selfish bastard. He's the type of guy where if he wants something, he's going to get it one way or another.
2) Brutality: Unlike the Crooked Man, he's a leader, but he is out there in the field. He doesn't care if you're a zombie or a human being, he will kill you if he feels it is necessary. He will either make it an easy death or a slow and torturing death.
3) Ruthlessness: No question that his brutality speaks for his ruthlessness as well.
4) Power: He is a leader, but an aggressive one. He has the loyalty of a large group of survivors; they will obey his orders when called. However, he is so confident in his power, that he tends to underestimate his opponents. He's the type of person that believes he can't be touched. We can't argue that he is a experienced fighter and a good marksman.
5) Persuasion: If he wants something done, it's by force or threats. This will cause people he encounters to obey or show him resistance. Of course, people don't see this side of him just yet. The first impression he tends to make is a kind man that invites people to join "the family." The other party has to hope that they don't have something that he wants.
So in conclusion, if it was a stand off between these two, it would no doubt be Carver to be the victor. The Crooked Man has almost no fighting experience. Where as Carver is fighting almost everyday during the zombie apocalypse. If needed, Carver will do dirty work. However, if we're talking about a war, the Crooked Man's group against Carver's band of survivors, then I would say the Crooked Man. Not because the Crooked Man has the power of Fables and mystical beings on his side, but the fact that the Crooked Man is smarter and studies his opponents. He will see the weakness of Carver and his survivors. Carver believes that his opponents will fear him or fall for his tricks and that will win him the war. Keep in mind, this is just my opinion.
I think the basis of the debate should be categorized by:
*Complexity
*Brutality
*Ruthlessness
*Power
*Persuasion
Edit:*Cu… morenning
Edit: The correlation between Brutality and Ruthlessness may be a bit muddled, "Brutal" describes an act or person that is both cruel and very violent. "Ruthless" describes an act or person that is cold or cruel, but this act or person need not be violent. A ruthless person believe that the ends justifies the means, and is willing to do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her objective. The motivation--to achieve an ambition--must be kept in mind when understanding the word "ruthless". On the other hand, "brutal" does not include any motivation--it merely describes the kind of violence.
umm, The Joker quite much saw himself as a villian, i haven't watched the movies/comics/other batman media or anything but didn't he like became a terrorist because he was bored?
I think The Crooked Man because I felt like he had more development and the fact that he was so manipulative. That and I always appreciate a villain that appears to have an ace up his sleeve. Carver I feel like wasn't as dominant as the Crooked Man. Plus CM had pretty much a group of some of the most dangerous and sneaky fables in Fabletown.
The Crooked Man i would of Chosen Carver but since Telltale hired a Monkey to write Episode 3 and kill him off before he fully developed we would never know if Carver was better or worst.
I'm going to say Carver for one reason: I JUST MET HIM TODAY! (Well, Michael Madsen that is) And he is kinda scary when you approach him but he had a good sense of humor about the Walking Dead Game.
While photos weren't allowed at his booth, he was very lucky to be able to shake his hand!
I thought they both were a big letdown... The Crooked Man simply didn't have enough screentime to be fully flushed out, and at the end he basically threw himself to the wolves (see what I did there?). He's supposed to be so intelligent and manipulative yet he lets himself walk right into his demise. Carver from the episode two was an awesome villain. Intelligent, manipulative, ambiguous, and merciless without being cruel. Episode 3 took away all the subtlety and added unnecessary cruelty. Even his whole opening conversation with Clementine in episode 3 seemed like a complete reversal of his character beforehand.
I'm going to say Carver for one reason: I JUST MET HIM TODAY! (Well, Michael Madsen that is) And he is kinda scary when you approach him but… more he had a good sense of humor about the Walking Dead Game.
While photos weren't allowed at his booth, he was very lucky to be able to shake his hand!
Comments
well the crooked man lasted five episodes and carver only lasted two soooooo do the math, the major villain in the walking dead is and always will be 1.zombies 2. people making terrible choices cause zombies
The Crooked Man. I wasn't scared of either of the villains, but with The Crooked Man it was because I'm the fucking Big Bad Wolf motherfucker, but with Carver it was just... Eh.
See, I was slightly scared of The Stranger, and watched my words around him, and I played as a full-grown man.
In S2E2, I was scared of Carver. I didn't insult him, even when he just came walking up to the house, as I felt like he could kill me in a second. Episode 3 I basically told him to go fuck himself at every opportunity I had. He turned from this villain that might be bad or might be good, yet still dangerous, to just a psychopath that's so cliche he wasn't even scary.
right its just business, they don't see it as bad they just see it as just business. and also he was clearly denying he did anything bad because he ordered it, so he didn't do anything bad.
The Crooked Man.
Definitely the Crooked Man. Carver's strong, but he had no chance of surviving the apocalypse. He was too showy. He was bound to be killed eventually. The Crooked Man didn't even try to directly kill Bigby; he tried to talk his way out of the situation and leave with his hands clean, and he almost succeeded. If Nerissa hadn't walked in, he probably would've been released due to insufficient evidence.
Depends on which Carver do you mean. If you mean Carver from Episode 2, then I kinda like him more that Crooked Man. But if you mean Carver from Episode 3, then Crooked Man is definitely the winner here.
Crooked Man was a simple man, not a fable, someone that could rule Fabletown without special powers, who had powerful fables working under him. He was very intelligent, that he clearly tricked them and made them work for him. He made everything right according to his plans. That's why he didn't kill, but made another do the job. He played it nicely, so he doesn't get the blame.
If he killed Bigby, he'd have had no one on his side by then since Bigby already took them out. Besides, he obviously preferred to prove himself innocent infront of the public, which he tried extremely well and nearly worked if Nerissa didn't interfere.
The Crooked Man can end up being turned into a crow and stay alive while Carver gets beaten into smush
I feel that the Crooked Man was the superior villain overall, but only due to Carver's poor characterisation in Episode 3. Had Carver behaved more consistently between Episode 2 and 3, then they would have been in equal footing.
The crooked man was an intelligent villain, he knew how to manipulate people, to get what he wanted, so yes, I definitely choose him.
The Crooked Man. I feel like the Crooked Man is an example of how Carver should of been as a villain. He was cool in episode 2, but in episode 3 he was an abusive fuck. Plus, the Crooked Man would of gotten away with it if it wasn't for Nerissa.
meh, that is what the crooked man said to the REALLY not legitimate jury, i don't think he actually believed that bullshit, look at what he has done, for god's sake, he KNOWS what he has done, he knows it's bad
The Crooked Man. Although I would have voted for Carver if they had kept him in his Episode 2 ways.
i agree fully, carver could have been an amazing, deep, and in the morally grey zone, instead we got...what we got, which isn't very impressivle, and toally in the black zone of morallity
The Crooked Man i would of Chosen Carver but since Telltale hired a Monkey to write Episode 3 and kill him off before he fully developed we would never know if Carver was better or worst.
"carver's morals are absurdly twisted" That's a pretty ironic adjective to use when talking about the Crooked Man XD
Crooked Man was way more manipulative and smart than Carver. Crooked Man used debt to enslave people, Carver just use pure coercion.
Bloody Mary scared the living shxt out of me. When Bigby was fighting her reflections, I thought it was over for the big bad wolf.
What about Tweedledee and Jersey, they're still out there somewhere. Hiding maybe?
The Crooked Man is fascinating because he works both as a literal villain and as a symbolic cancer of everything wrong with Fabletown.
As a pure villain he was incredibly smart and incredibly cautious. No one so much as got a glimpse of the man unless you were in a his inner circle. He worked through legitimate and illegal fronts to dig his claws into the very structure of the town. He would dig people into debt and practically enslave them, He mostly stayed in a magic fortress that had an entrance that moved around and he hired loyal psychopaths like Bloody Mary and Jersey Devil to enforce his pure strength if necessary.
What makes Crooked Man such a cool antagonist is how he symbolically represents all the problems plaguing Fabletown. Practically every resident is incredibly unhappy in their current surroundings. Some are truly doing it rough like Grendel, Holly and Faith, some are trying to squeeze a living on a day to day basis, like Woody, Jack and Toad and others are used to living in royalty and don't adapt well to mundane surroundings (Beast and Beauty). In addition to this, Fabletown's government structure is either purely corrupt (Bluebeard), incompetently run (Icabod Crane's tenure), over worked to the point that not enough can be done (Snow White) or not capable of providing a service that benefits every citizen (Bigby's sheriff job).
So along comes The Crooked Man. As I said, I love the character not for his speeches or his actions. But for the fact that man was only able to become such a deadly cancer because the system cried out for him. Suddenly people who want money can get and continue living as they please (again. Beauty and Beast). Fables who have no place in the world find a purpose and use that fulfills them (Tiny Tim and Aunty Greenleaf). Incredibly dangerous Fables that could cause massive murder are kept under a strict leash that mostly protects society (Bloody Mary would probably slaughter an entire city were it not for Crooked Man). Even Fables that would be struggling to survive find a warped and mostly safe way to survive because the Crooked Man needs it (Georgie and Vivian, for all their faults were pretty much a legit business before the bodies started piling up).
So in summary I really loved The Crooked Man, Not just because he looked cool and had a great voice actor. But because his very existence is the gaping hole of despair and nothingness that Bigby and Snow are fighting against the entire season.
I'll go with Carver simply because I prefer the more "do it myself" type of villain. Carver did some sh!tty things and he had no problem telling you he did it, and would gladly do it again. I still liked TCM though because that type of character fit more with the story in TWAU. My biggest complaint with Carver is that he was killed off too soon, whereas TCM not having as much screen time is more befitting of his character.
I think the basis of the debate should be categorized by:
*Complexity
*Brutality
*Ruthlessness
*Power
*Persuasion
Edit:*Cunning
Edit: The correlation between Brutality and Ruthlessness may be a bit muddled, "Brutal" describes an act or person that is both cruel and very violent. "Ruthless" describes an act or person that is cold or cruel, but this act or person need not be violent. A ruthless person believe that the ends justifies the means, and is willing to do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her objective. The motivation--to achieve an ambition--must be kept in mind when understanding the word "ruthless". On the other hand, "brutal" does not include any motivation--it merely describes the kind of violence.
Ah okay. Let me see if I can narrow it down.
The Crooked Man
1) Complexity: The thing we can agree on the Crooked man is that he is cunning. He is both a strategist and a negotiator. He is very manipulative in his words. Although he may have no combat experience or external physique, his other traits make up for it and make him a deadly force to be reckon with.
2) Brutality: His rating on brutality isn't very high. He's just the boss; the man who pulls the strings. When he does fight an opponent, he seems to prefer to fight with words or a quick death to avoid conflict that may give his opponent a chance. However, he definitely has no conscious when he watches brutal actions taking place. One thing for sure, he has a heart of stone. He won't hesitate to "take care" of something if it greatly benefits him.
3) Ruthlessness: I say he's about half and half. The Crooked Man is an organized crime lord. He is ruthless if it needs to be done, but he's merciless of executing people or hiring thugs to do his job. However, he isn't cruel. Throughout the game, the death of "his" victims are quick. He doesn't seem to get a sensation out of it; unlike his bodyguard "Bloody Mary."
4) Power: He pretty much has the power of fear, intimidation on his side. His wealth and riches buys him that power needed to control Fabletown. If he needs something done, there would be nearly to no argument. Also, many see his power as a blessing as he has jobs for them and black market items is given for cheaper. He can control people with both fear and the misdirection of kindness.
5) Persuasion: The Crooked Man isn't stupid. His cunning makes him a born diplomat. His power of fear, intimidation and the loyalty of some Fables causes him to be a very persuasive man. Also, he's a strategist. He knows which opponent he should be concerned about. When that problem occurs, he studies them; knowing what his/her strong points and weak points are. He exploits them and manipulates them towards his favor.
Carver
1) Complexity: This man has strong confidence in his leadership and has a cold heart. This man can kill a person without hesitation. He's a selfish bastard. He's the type of guy where if he wants something, he's going to get it one way or another.
2) Brutality: Unlike the Crooked Man, he's a leader, but he is out there in the field. He doesn't care if you're a zombie or a human being, he will kill you if he feels it is necessary. He will either make it an easy death or a slow and torturing death.
3) Ruthlessness: No question that his brutality speaks for his ruthlessness as well.
4) Power: He is a leader, but an aggressive one. He has the loyalty of a large group of survivors; they will obey his orders when called. However, he is so confident in his power, that he tends to underestimate his opponents. He's the type of person that believes he can't be touched. We can't argue that he is a experienced fighter and a good marksman.
5) Persuasion: If he wants something done, it's by force or threats. This will cause people he encounters to obey or show him resistance. Of course, people don't see this side of him just yet. The first impression he tends to make is a kind man that invites people to join "the family." The other party has to hope that they don't have something that he wants.
So in conclusion, if it was a stand off between these two, it would no doubt be Carver to be the victor. The Crooked Man has almost no fighting experience. Where as Carver is fighting almost everyday during the zombie apocalypse. If needed, Carver will do dirty work. However, if we're talking about a war, the Crooked Man's group against Carver's band of survivors, then I would say the Crooked Man. Not because the Crooked Man has the power of Fables and mystical beings on his side, but the fact that the Crooked Man is smarter and studies his opponents. He will see the weakness of Carver and his survivors. Carver believes that his opponents will fear him or fall for his tricks and that will win him the war. Keep in mind, this is just my opinion.
Bloody Mary was the one with the big head, the rest were very easy to Bigby.
Yeah, Darth Vader, The Joker, The Emperor, Freddy Krueger, Evil Queen, Chucky, Voldemort, my Math Teacher, etc... The list could go on and on...
haha, true
umm, The Joker quite much saw himself as a villian, i haven't watched the movies/comics/other batman media or anything but didn't he like became a terrorist because he was bored?
I think The Crooked Man because I felt like he had more development and the fact that he was so manipulative. That and I always appreciate a villain that appears to have an ace up his sleeve. Carver I feel like wasn't as dominant as the Crooked Man. Plus CM had pretty much a group of some of the most dangerous and sneaky fables in Fabletown.
I enjoyed his performance too. Well done job he did.
Carver. I spent episodes 2 and 3 afraid of him. I didn't spend a second of TWAU afraid of anything, especially some old guy.
I'm sure they already planned to kill him off way before they started writing episode 3
The Crooked Man is a coward. Carver killed like 4 people. The Crooked man plays a better social game though, but in the end I think Carver was.
I'm going to say Carver for one reason: I JUST MET HIM TODAY! (Well, Michael Madsen that is) And he is kinda scary when you approach him but he had a good sense of humor about the Walking Dead Game.
While photos weren't allowed at his booth, he was very lucky to be able to shake his hand!
I thought they both were a big letdown... The Crooked Man simply didn't have enough screentime to be fully flushed out, and at the end he basically threw himself to the wolves (see what I did there?). He's supposed to be so intelligent and manipulative yet he lets himself walk right into his demise. Carver from the episode two was an awesome villain. Intelligent, manipulative, ambiguous, and merciless without being cruel. Episode 3 took away all the subtlety and added unnecessary cruelty. Even his whole opening conversation with Clementine in episode 3 seemed like a complete reversal of his character beforehand.
The Crooked Man
Wow, you're so lucky! I wish I could meet Michael Madsen too.
Carver was more dangerous as an individual, but the Crooked Man was much smarter.