Was it Faith or Nerissa? A very strong case with new evidence.
My argument: Faith
This is long, but I guarantee I will show you evidence that you have never seen before
We all know they are the same person, but we seem to be split about 50/50 (there was even a poll) as to whom Bigby spoke with in the final scene. Nerissa makes sense because it fits the best with the plot, and with her kind nature, it makes total sense she would put the whole thing in motion to help Bigby. Faith seems like a good choice because TTG is tricky. I was wrong about many things, but I made a thread a while back about Faith being a villain who kills Lily and remains alive. I know it is rude to post your own old threads, but this post is so long (and most of it is all new analysis), so I want to give people something to refer back to for some evidence. See below.
I say that Faith is opposite Nerissa and has a manipulative nature; she put the whole thing in motion to help herself (by using Bigby), and there is a lot of evidence for this. I cannot totally prove it, but nobody can totally prove Nerissa’s case, but I am about 99% sure Faith is the person to whom we last spoke due to some correct predictions/good evidence of my old thread and the following:
The first odd thing is something Faith says to Bigby the first time they meet. “I’m not going to be doing this [hooking] for much longer.” Well how would she know that? She’s not going to become rich anytime soon, and unless she intentionally walked into her own death, she knew something we didn’t – her plan to escape The Crooked Man
Through powerful magic, her whereabouts concealed, unfortunately for you, these lips are sealed – Mirror referring to Faith after she’s supposedly dead already. The mirror can show dead people (he shows Faith’s father). Furthermore, when he says this, he isn’t decapitated. This shows that the silence spell and the decapitation spell are NOT INSEPARABLE, as the mirror wears no ribbon. This will become important further below.
In the next episode, we see Dee looking for Faith’s stolen picture at many places (though we don’t find out what he was looking for until episode three. We also see that Dee isn’t charging Faith money (a total anomaly). Why would he do a job for free for a supposedly dead girl? Also, when Toad offers up the coat to Dee, he rejects it. Only if he knew she were alive and didn’t want the coat (so as to appear dead and gone) would he not take it, for if she were dead it would be evidence. If alive and said nothing, he’d give it back. This suggests some subtle subversion of CM, as we find out later that all his other employees were angry at his ruthless business tactics.
I posited (still do) Faith’s head was not her. This is why Swineheart never releases the body and Bigby’s question to Snow (originally in ep. 2), “Did Dr. Swineheart ever get back to you about Faith?” “No. He said he still wanted to run some more tests” Comes up in the very last scene. As well.
Then whose head was it? It turns out, it is a mysterious, unmentioned character named, update: A user pointed out Kay is a Male character in the comics. Still, there is another glamour set just like Faith uses (not that she needs one -- see next paragraph) and (less likely, because not really needed) it's possible she stole it. She stole a photo from the previously main villain in the game, I don't see how stealing from an unnamed character who conveniently shows up at the end to have the same glamour be any harder Refer back the episode four for the discussion about how the ingredients were used to make glamours. If you look at the Chalkboard in the Butcher’s shop, only Faith and Kay have the same order – J/DD. See Chalkboard 1.
http://oi57.tinypic.com/k54hhx.jpg chalkboard 1
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2natnrr.jpg chalkboard 2
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2e2fes9.jpg secret ingredient
Two things here: First, Faith doesn’t need a glamour (she’s flawlessly beautiful without her coat). Second, Nerissa doesn’t need a glamour either! If you ask her about the legs in episode two she responds that they’re real but cost a lot of money. See chalkboard 2. What is Nerissa’s glamour order? It's: H/J/DD, the exact same as Faith’s but with an H. What is ingredient H? Dew of the Sea. See secret ingredient above. So what we’ve got here is Faith (who doesn’t need a glamour) with two glamours that make one look like Faith. We’ve also got Nerissa (Faith) with a third glamour identical to Faith’s, but with a touch of The little Mermaid added (which yields Nerissa).
So let’s run with this idea that Faith was disguising herself as Nerissa. If I haven’t convinced you yet, there is more.
If you look a“t Nerissa’s bag in episode four, it is the EXACT SAME bag as Faith’s from episode one. Purple with gold stones. This Bag is different than the one we see in Nerissa’s cubby in Episode two (a plain green bag). Why would Nerissa (a kind-hearted fable steal a dead friend’s bag?) If it was sentimentality (which it isn’t), she’d have taken her clothes and everything else. See pictures below.
http://oi62.tinypic.com/dxk0pk.jpg Faith’s bag (ep. 1)
http://oi57.tinypic.com/iduph3.jpg Nerissa’s bag (ep. 4)
In episode two, we see that some sort of struggle had taken place in the girls’ changing room (hastily broken Jewelry box and makeup kit – though it doesn’t even have a lock). I first thought it was a fight between Lily and Faith, but it was actually Faith coming back from her encounter with Bigby. She put on the Nerissa glamour (but as we know – Glamours are not perfect), so she scrambled to put on Nerissa-like makeup and Jewelry so as to make it seem like Faith never came back.
Now here is where things get really tricky. I want to post this part just to tie off any loose ends. After that, I will go over some weird things in the last episode that really seal the deal for Faith being alive and being Nerissa. If you look at the girls’ appointment book, we see th“at Neri”ssa had an appointment in 204 the night of Lily’s murder. Very few people probably noticed this, but see the photo below.
http://oi62.tinypic.com/30bmzj6.jpg appointment book
Now, if you actually examine 204 at the Open Arms, it appears pretty dirty, but there were no signs of a struggle or of anyone trying to run away or run for help (broken desk or broken lock would have been examples). 204 actually refers to the Woodsman’s apartment room. He is a tenant in Toad’s building. There is a letter on Crane’s desk from Toad complaining about the mess in 204. See below.
http://oi60.tinypic.com/4pv5i1.jpg Apartment 204
Now, recall what the Woodsman said about where he was the night of Lily’s murder. He said he was at the Trip Trap, “you can ask anybody”, he says. You only get to see this if you interrogate him and not Dee. However, we know Holly and Gren are readily willing to lie about where Woody is (remember the end of episode one). I posit that Faith, disguised as Nerissa, went to 204, with 204 being Woody’s apartment not the room at the Open Arms. There, she (or Kay – see below) told Woody her falsified version of what happened, and her version is exactly what The Crooked Man states in episode five at his lair, and again at his trial: that Georgie misinterpreted directions and killed Lily (Woody’s love). It's no coincidence. Faith predicted her wicked boss' every move (Crooked Man Vivian, and Georgie) Seem too far of a stretch? It’s not.
We know that Woody knows what happened to Lily (or at least he thinks he does). If you wait to enter the trip trap at the end of episode three and listen to Gren and Woody’s conversation through the door, Woody tells Gren what he thinks happened (that Georgie killed Lily by a misunderstanding). Woody wants to tell Holly, but never gets the chance. Notice also the important absence of Woody at The Crooked Man’s trial. In this way, there was no dissenting opinion. But wait! Gren was at the trial, and he could have given that same dissenting opinion. No he couldn’t. Remember the funny phrase: Gren won’t remember this. At first it just seemed like a funny line put in by TTG, but it serves a purpose – Gren can’t give a different version of the story. But there is another problem to my explanation here. How would Faith (disguised as Nerissa) have been able to tell Woody the fake story – she was wearing a ribbon after all.
There are three possible solutions to this. When Georgie exclaims that Vivian is “the original” – the first one with the ribbon, he never actually says that Vivian cast the silence/beheading spell. In fact, it’s the opposite. He says she was the first one burdened with the problem (although she makes copies of the ribbon for her club). Vivian goes on to say, “Every day I have to Look Gwen and Hans in the eye and pretend I don’t care…about what I’ve done to them [taken away their freedom]… I look at Nerissa and I hate myself.” This leaves us with the implication that the other ancillary dancers DID NOT wear the ribbons, including Amber. Who is Amber? Another dancer who wants to switch nights with someone. See picture below.
http://oi59.tinypic.com/1ht56s.jpg Amber's note.
The first possible solution is that Amber, or some dancer (who switched jobs with Faith after meeting up with Bigby) simply didn’t wear a ribbon and was blackballed or tricked into going there by Faith. I'd go with tricked. Faith says, 'I will do this favor for you (covering for you on 7/16), but in return, you've got to say sorry to the Woodsman for me about the earlier tonight and that Lily is in danger (this is why Woody was desperately looking for his axe -- to protect Lily's impending doom). Oh, and by the way, you have to look like me because Woody only gets a woody for me (lie, but Amber doesn't know that).' Woody is pissed at first, but when he hears news of Lily's impending death, he takes her seriously. Then, as Nerissa, Faith tells Georgie all about Faith's and Lily's treason (as Nerissa herself puts it). She tells him that Faith is going to be back at the club in just a bit. Nerissa's explanation to Bigby in ep. 5 was that, '...we [Faith, Lily, and Nerissa] had committed treason. And while the two of us were sitting there [at the club], Faith walked in, and I had to watch while Georgie --' and the quote ends there. She never explains how Georgie killed 'Faith'. I think she 'had' to watch while Georgie (even angrier that Faith somehow seemed to have taken off the ribbon), hit her and then slapped a ribbon onto the treasonous and subversive Amber/Faith, promptly removing it and killing her. This explains the identical bruising and why Swineheart never released the head -- the glamour had worn off and it wasn't Faith's head anymore. Swineheart was probably under threat from the Crooked Man not to release any evidence on pain of death. That or he really could have been running more tests; he was a great doctor and maybe something didn't seem right.
The second possible solution is that Faith was immune to the decapitation spell. How? If you look at the book with the symbols on it (the one that Bufkin must translate) there is a ring on Lanelot’s page. Vivian is from Vivienne/Lady of the Lake (Lancelot) fairytale. The entry on the ring says this (the whole book is in semi-archaic Latin by the way), 'Hoc ordine a magno malo nos defendant adfectatuz signare magna olim potestas.' See picture below.
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2db83np.jpg The unseen ring theory
I happen to speak and read Spanish and read Italian, so it caught my eye. I can also say my Latin is better than Bufkin's. He says it says something about the Frog Prince. If translated correctly (it won’t perfectly because it is semi-archaic), it reads, 'Once upon a time, there was a great power [the pictured ring] that protected us from a great evil [the beheading spell].' Update: I thought the ring didn't appear in the game, and it might not; I am not sure. There are a few ways to translate it. First, the ring caption actually says, 'any wearer was able to activate its [power]'. The caption I translated is just appears to be an insignia, but (though I don't read Latin too well), it sounds like it's a defensive spell, one that would protect one from the "seal" (another way to translate it). Basically, I don't think it can be used to take away Vivian's power. I think it is used to make one immune to that power. And the ring that Greenleaf sold to Crane looks nothing like the one in the book nor the much like the insignia below it. I think Greenleaf just gave Crane a junk ring to get him out of there. She dislikes him ('Crane could be hollow bones tomorrow, and you wouldn't see me cry a drop.') She also just needed the money. Maybe there was a real one out there, and it is possible Faith had it (or she had the stamp/official seal/marking). Additionally, if Vivian had it, she could wear it herself, but still be able to use her ribbons on others, and Vivian never wears a ring. If this is the case,then why is Faith so scared that Bigby might take it off? Overcompensation to steer him in the wrong direction.
The third, and cleanest explanation is simply this: Faith (as Nerissa) found a way to tell Woody (or let him come to his own conclusion) what was about to happen simply by being clever and doing everything by the book. She made it all official: putting Nerissa (Faith) in the book, an ambiguous room number, and a pseudonym for a client.
Phew. Now, getting to the last episode and the ending about which we are debating: The Crooked man doesn’t recognize Nerissa, yet he recognizes Beauty and Beast perfectly well, 'I see some of my employees are present among us.' Further strengthening this argument, remember that Beauty only recently started working at the Open Arms for the Crooked Man (as revealed by herself in Ep. 2). Also, why on earth would Nerissa go to the club (which she hated and knew was dangerous)? She even told Bigby not to tell anyone she went to see him. Only Faith, who knew she was safe, would go back to the club to confirm Vivian and Georgie dead.
In addition, Faith says some rather odd things.
She says, "I left Faith on your doorstep." This is a double entendre. Literally it means: I left Faith's head at your doorstep. Metaphorically it means: I put my faith in you to carry out my insidious plan.
Then she says something rather troubling and easy to miss right before the very end:
"For better or worse this town won’t be the same without you.” For worse? What? How could she possibly say for worse after all the trouble the beneficent Nerissa went through to change things? Unless she knows things Bigby doesn’t, which she does. She Successfully deported Crane, who is her enemy, and what Nerissa says is an ally of the Crooked Man (obvious lie at this point). She killed/imprisoned The Crooked Man. She got rid of anyone who knew too much (Lily, Vivian, Georgie). She conned Fabletown in its entirety. Worst of all, she did all this by manipulating Bigby and Snow (by the end the only two who the rest of the cast trusted) to come to a gigantic false conclusion!
Her last words to Bigby (for the second time) were, "You're not as bad as everyone says you are." This is also a double entendre. Literally it means Bigby is a nice guy. Figuratively, it means that compared to herself, the Big Bad Wolf is a saint.
In the very last few seconds, as Bigby realizes Nerissa wasn’t really Nerissa, the music and sound effects take on a horrific tone. It’s not just a moment of revelation; Bigby realizes he has very possibly (along with everyone else) been cleverly manipulated by the innocent, victimized girl who we all rooted for at the start. The Crooked Man certainly was a crook, but Faith, as much as I love her character, really was, (though not a dumb one) a complete ass.
Comments
Halfway through wall of text and all I can say is DAMN. Good shit.
Wow.
To add to the last dialouge of Nerissa in ep5. I'm pretty sure when she said she put Faith's head on Bigby's doorstep she also said "I walked Faith over here" or something along those lines. Maybe I misheard. Right when Nerissa started crying it just felt she was lying through her teeth from that moment on.
-edit- Never mind Nerissa said: "I walked her over here" as in the head by itself I guess.
Faith and Nerissa can't have always been the same person. There are numerous pictures of the together and multiple third parties have referred to the two as separate people.
I think you're confused. The job Dee was working wasn't for Faith. It was about Faith. She stole a picture of Crane and Lilly together to gain "leverage." Dee was hired by Crane to get it back. Crane was his client, Crooked Man was his boss.
She may not have been the person to cast the original ribbon enchantment, but making copies of her ribbon means copying the enchantment that she had on hers. That's why all the magic on the other ribbon is tied to hers.
The ring was shown in game. Crane got it from Auntie Greenleaf, who said that the magic on it had worn off long ago.
Crane was a corrupt official and the Crooked Man was the man behind a criminal empire. Lily was killed by Georgie, Georgie was killed by Bigby, and Vivian took her own life. Even if she lied to Bigby, none of what "Faith" supposedly did was actually bad or at least criminal.
I agree with everything, except the very last bit. She wasn't a complete ass, "she just did what she had to survive in an unfamiliar and unfair world". This is the last line in her book of fables' entry.
She's a survivor and her weapon is her wits. She's a great character and it was a honor to play such vital role in her scheme, lol. :-D
That too was a double entendre. She's "ass-skin girl", so she's an ass...but not a dumb-ass. Far from it. She's a genius. As far as her being good or bad goes. I think her situation was the same as every other one of the Crooked Man's employees: She did what she had to do. Unlike the timid Johann the butcher, loudmouthed Jack, or the mean-spirited Georgie, Faith was an incredibly intelligent princess who really knew what it was like to be maltreated. She couldn't take CM's oppression anymore, and unlike the others, she had the means to get out. Means to an end I suppose.
Dee was working a job for Faith. He was working the same job for Crane, but didn't actually do it for him, and charged him money, while Faith got his services for free.
I looked at the ring and I thought that it was a different design. It could have been that ring though. The whole "Once upon a time" part of the translation somewhat suggests that it did lose its powers.
We actually agree on the ribbon thing if you read it again.
I am wondering if nobody will get the joke at the end about her being an ass because she is a donkey... No, none of what she did was criminal. In the end, it likely was for the best of Fabletown, but she did betray and just completely mindf*ck the whole town to get out of what (truly was) a bad situation.
she used her friends... and led them to their death. she's a terrible person.
I thought the same thing about the mirror and created a thread about it. However, as someone pointed out, the mirror says the same thing when you ask about (dead) Lily.
What are you basing this off of? Or is it just speculation?
Not quite. He doesn't say, "These lips are sealed". He just says, I can't tell you" or something like that.
If you look in the brothers' file cabinets, the info is there. Click the first link in this thread and go to my old one. It has a video link with the footage somewhere.
Yes, he does. "Some things cannot be revealed. Once again, these lips are sealed."
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/75841/the-magic-mirror-and-faith
(the last post)
Unless you think she somehow influenced the Crooked Man to call for her friends' deaths or helped Georgie kill them, she can't be blamed for their deaths. At most, all she did was switch places with one of them to avoid getting killed. Crooked Man's still the one who ordered the killings, Georgie's still the one who carried it out.
You mean this?
There was a file for Crane indicating that he hired Dum and Dee to "Find Comprimising Photo" and a file for Faith indicating that she "Stole a photo from Crane." Nothing there indicates that she hired them.
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean that Faith can't still be alive. The only thing it demonstrates is that wearing a ribbon is not a necessary condition for being blocked by the spell. I kind of just went in chronological order, and this was more of a tidbit of info i figure everyone would remember.
I agree Faith is alive, as did Signyl, but I also agree with him that this can't be used as evidence to support the "Faith is alive" theory.
I see. Yeah I never interpreted it that way. I thought that she had hired them because it had been stolen again and that a dead girl couldn't go searching. And I raised this question in my last thread: How does she get the photo in the first place? She must have been close to Crane (I think she may have been his main "Snow White" -- see other thread). Yet, Beauty says she's never heard the name Faith, but she rattles off Tara, Brandy, Amber, Heather, and "Lily the Troll" very easily. Further, Beauty only remembers seeing snow once, but Crane seems to have "Snow days" at least a few times per week. So if she was in disguise in the lobby, then upstairs as Snow, well she must have had a lot of glamours to be working with. Not only that, but if all the twins have is a request from Crane, how do they know that she's the one who took it? If you think he knows, how does he know? That conflicts with them not being close. If they were close that conflicts with Faith not having an array of glamours. In any intrepration, Faith is much less than innocent here.
Also just because multiple people have referred to them as separate that doesn't really matter a ton here. Remember, everyone in the cast is pretty much complicit with some crime or is being duped by it. And even if Vivian and Georgie at the end refer to them as "those two women", that assumes they haven't already been duped by Faith. Plus, Crooked Man doesn't even recognize Nerissa. Also (this isn't in the ending): Watch when you light their cigarettes. They both cutely say, "Thanks." and they ash their cigarettes with their index finger, while holding them between their ring finger and middle finger. Plus pictures don't mean much in this story. It wasn't snow was it? In that one picture in Lily's box, we don't even know if the third girl is Lily. She's never been seen in glamour, and if you go along with my "Kay" theory, that might not have been Faith.
Yeah, I agree with that. I didn't realize he said the phrase when you ask about Lily too. But it does demonstrate the nature of the ribbon/silence/decapitation spell.
While I agree that Faith is the at the end of the game, I disagree with some of the evidence.
1) Kay is a character in the Fables comics.
2) I think the room number 204 is a red herring. Woody's apartment would be marked as "Private Residence" like some of the entries, not just a room number.
1) Good to know. In any case, Faith would still have an extra glamour (and she doesn't even need one), so somebody disposable could easily have been the head (Swineheart still doesn't let anyone see it). Now I know Kay isn't a dancer, but it doesn't change the fact there is a glamour formula just like Faith's -- not that she needs an extra (unless she's committing a crime)
2) I disagree. I think it's made to be ambiguous on purpose, so her story could be pluripotent. So that either way -- on that night Faith/Nerissa would have had to have been either at the crime scene or Woody's. They didn't pick 204 arbitrarily by putting it in the book, giving you the key, and having toad write that letter.
Re: the other girls not wearing ribbons - they probably all do, 'discretion is our guarantee' and all that. Plus, in the queue outside the office at the end, you can see another girl still wearing a ribbon (
)
Bigby's apartment number is also 204 if I recall correctly. Could be the designers again pointing people in some direction. I think I really like your theory. I liked it more before someone said that Dee wasn't working for Faith and you agreed. However, I myself thought that perhaps the head on the steps was some unnamed character but sort of dismissed it for the same reason I can't think of any reason why anyone would be glamoured as anyone else for no reason. They don't even glamour as the person they fill in for which seems like it would be the safest and easiest way to do it. For example, Woody was expecting Lily and when Lily didn't show Woody went nuts. He would have never gone nuts had Faith been glamoured as Lily. I then posited that maybe that was the reason Faith didn't glamour as Lily, because she wanted the Woodsman to freak and therefore Bigby might get involved. The photos in episode 5 I thought were photos of Snow (Lily), Faith and Nerissa. Then there's one of Faith and Nerissa in an argument. While you're correct in that people could be glamoured as others and that photos don't necessarily tell the truth in this game, (in fact at the end of episode 2 I was certain Ichabod wasn't Ichabod in the photo and assumed it was someone else glamoured to implicate him, It actually annoyed me that none of the characters ever even bring up the possibility or at least say "This COULD be Crane, but it might not be.) it seems a little unlikely that, while they were posting all these clues all throughout the game so something could be solved, they would put photos that only confuse the situation because theoretically the characters in them could be glamoured.
I don't think everyone does. When they are talking about the ribbons Vivian Says, "Every day I have to Look Gwen and Hans in the eye and pretend I don’t care…about what I’ve done to them [taken away their freedom]… I look at Nerissa and I hate myself." Hans doesn't have a ribbon, and he is at the queue in that clip. Maybe only the escorts have them, but BWCW is actually an ecort...yes, look at the appointmentbook photo. He's in the queue too. He doesn't have one. Even if they have them, we know glamours stay on until the tube is dis activated (Lily), so it doesn't hurt the Faith's head being not Faith argument.The fact that the girl didn't take hers off (and that Faith hersself doesn't) that raises questions actually. Like I said before, it is never said Vivian wanted the weapon/curse of wearing the ribbon herself and then being able to make copies. She may have been the original victim, capable of making more through her magic, but when did the origin of her ribbon come from? Why did that girl not take it off? Why didn't Faith? Especially when she casually recaps the whole experience as if she (as Nerissa) has transcended the whole trauma while talking to Bigby, but then says she wants to deal with it herself. Maybe she's telling the truth, or maybe she knows the spell is still in effect.
I actually never agreed with that. I just said I had not interpreted it like that before (the Dee/Faith/Crane contract). I actually think that is the case (if you see my other thread). I think some unnamed dancer got conned by Faith to switch nights while Faith said some lie like, my next client is expecting me and only me, so you have to look like me (Faith doesn't wear a glamour). It's probably a Tara, Brandy, Amber, or Heather.
Oh, didn't see the BWCW there - good catch. Though I'm not sure if the ginger character model is meant to be BWCW - I know the early arguments about his involvement, but from how he pops up everywhere, including as 2 different people simultaneously in one scene, it looks more likely that he's just a general purpose character model.
I'm actually in the 'it was Faith glamoured as Nerissa all along' camp, but I'm just not sure why you need to start arguing that not everyone of the P&P escorts wears ribbons - or that the ribbons are still active. What benefit does that serve in making sense of things?
Ok, on rereading your post I see why you need some exceptions to the ribbon-wearing - you're relying on a 'Kay' or some third party who doesn't wear a ribbon who can actually tell Woody a fake set of circumstances. But I'm not really sure why you need that either - what is the exact phrasing of what Woody says at the Trip Trap? If he's just giving his opinion, or doesn't sound sure, then can't he just be guessing that's how it happened?
Dee doesn't reject it Faith's coat Jack does.
It was dum who rejected the coat in episode 1 after he attacked toad and TJ
But what about the head at the doorstep it had bruise's like faiths in episode 1?
I can hear TT staff laughing at us while we're still trying to solve the game.... -_-'
they better get us another season if so!
THat's one of the possibilities as to how Woody knew what was going on. The dialogue is this:
Woody: "I just want to tell her [Holly] what happened [to Lily]."
Gren: "We know what happened."
Woody: "Ok, how it happened, then"
Woody must have been fed some falsified information by someone, and I think it was Nerssa/Faith, so that he would have some closure and not appear at the trial.
So I don't NEED the ribbon theory; it's just one of actually three possibilities under which this theory of Faith setting everything up could have happened.
A. Faith tricked her by switching nights with her and told her Woody only gets a woody for me (Faith), so you've got to look exactly like me.
B. Faith (if you run with the facet that she was closer to the Twins' than you think) could have threatened her with blackmail or worse.
So, I suppose I don't NEED the ribbon explanations, but I wanted to lay them out on the table so that I could not have to reply to a ton of questions, although , the questions/small gaps in my theory have been really good questions and well pointed out.
Her voice seems to change at some point around then too. It is subtle, but watch it again and listen closely. Nerissa starts to sound less and less like Nerissa and more and more like Faith as the game comes to an end.
Oh, that conversation, haha. That's about Woody screwing Lily, not the murders. We can infer it because when you get inside, Gren and Woody fight about Woody and Lily's relationship. If Woody's mind were on the method of murders, he would have brought it up again for Bigby, and he doesn't.
That is not the conversation to which I was referring. Everyone sees the one you are talking about, but if and only if, you wait to enter the bar in ep. 3 (right before the conversation you're talking about), does the player see that Woody knows (or thinks) he knows what happened.
Yes, I know. "I just want to tell her what happened." >> I want to explain to Holly what happened between me and Lily. "We know what happened." >> You slept with her, that's all we need to know to judge you. "Ok, how it happened, then." >> Point taken, but you weren't there, you just need to understand.
If Woody really though he knew what had happened to Lily, how she was murdered, do you think he'd be so passive about it, give up so easily? No, he'd be a lot more passionate. As it is, he's pleading and tired, he doesn't think Gren and Holly will get why he was seeing Lily, and so he leaves.
Yes, those are the correct quotes. I didn't want to delve into this, but it is fairly obvious that Gren had a thing for Lily. "It's just a dead whore." "I'm gonna kill you!" "That funeral was a pretty shitty send off for a pretty ?okay? lady". Also, Gren charges that Woody was endangering Lily by sleeping with her (especially because it was for free sometimes). So when he says, "You slept with her!", he really means, "You slept with someone I care for, and you're the one who put her in danger."
Now, think about it if you were actually at that conversation. "We know what happened" That's an odd thing to say. If you were Gran you'd probably say "You already told me what happened!" "We know what happened" makes much more sense if he's saying, "We know how she died, and it was basically your fault".
As for Woody being more passionate, would he though? To whom would he turn? Bigby? From a pragmatic standpoint, that would ruin the whole game if we had that information.
From an in-game standpoint, he isn't exactly thrilled to see Bigby that night. Also, as you said, he's tired and probably even more upset when Bigby shows up, so he just wants to go about his business and leaves.
Also, what makes you think HE WASN'T so passionate about it? In the very next episode, he shows up to get his axe. Why? To kill Georgie. He's not the "let's get the gang together to find out the truth" type (like Snow is). He wants to get revenge on his own terms. So, he looks for Georgie, but can't find him because Georgie is at CM's lair. This explains why he is absent from the Trial. Besides Holly, nobody had a more personal interest in the murders, so why the hell would he not be there? Woody is not there because he's busy passionately looking for the killer, but to no avail.
I've been going over a lot of the evidence, replaying episodes and taking different options. I have a few little musings to add, one of which I believe could be significant.
The Ring and The Coat
Faith, when we first meet her in Woodsman's house, is not wearing her ring. It isn't until Bigby, Woody and Toad have been outside for a short while that we see her again, this time wearing her ring. We know Faith's coat ended up in Toad's house, and we know the ring ends up tied to the ribbon. Was the ring retrieved from Toad's while Bigby lay on Toad's car, or was the coat left then before Toad later found it? Woodsman, if you choose to interrogate him, makes brief mention that it's all the girls with the coat's fault - this is surely Donkeyskin (aka Faith)? If so, it would strongly suggest Faith arrived either wearing or with the coat. She didn't leave with it. Conversely, she appears to have arrived without her ring on her finger, but left wearing it.
If you really wanted to go deep into mind-screw over this, you could almost argue we met both Nerissa AND Faith in the opening scene. Not sure that's my theory, but it'd be interesting if someone came up with a good case for it. What I am sure of is that the women OUTSIDE the Woodsman's is Faith. The Donkeyskin fable (as in real-life fairytale - there's an oxymoron for you) is a bit like Cinderella - Donkeyskin's ring ONLY fits Donkeyskin. If someone left wearing Faith's ring, that was Faith as far as I am concerned.
The Bag and The Cigarettes
Then there is Faith and Nerissa's bags, which has already been covered. I couldn't see this bag anywhere inside Woodsman's, but it wasn't on the step when they came through the window and Faith did produce a mirror from somewhere inside. Incidentally, we later see Nerissa smoking Shorettes and drawing attention to Bigby's brand, "Huff 'n' Puffs, who smokes them?" It feels like a big clue, but I've found nothing yet. Should Nerissa smoke Huff 'n' Puffs? Or does Faith smoke Huff 'n' Puffs and disguised as Nerissa she's having a cruel joke? What Faith doesn't smoke is Shorettes (if you accept the women outside the Woodman's was Faith). Shorettes are very distinctive, long filtered, pink strip I think? What Faith pulls from the same bag that Nerissa later pulls her packet of Shorettes from could be a Huff 'n' Puff.
This is a good thread, I'll try to post more another time. OP, you've made some very good observations and have some reasonable conclusions. Broadly, I agree with your over-arching conclusion for many of the same reasons you do.
Finally for now, having been playing these episodes very carefully over the past few days and taking notes, all those people who are saying things like:
"It was the ginger guy. He's a serial killer. We are so smart and figured it out. That's why EP3 took so long, they had to change the story".
Sorry, but the story is very strong and consistent throughout. The community missed almost everything and were led like sheep - there were significant things in plain sight from almost the first second that still made sense in the last second. And I saw this as someone who declared an interest in the ginger guy theory. Telltale Games really did a good job of duping most of us until the very last possible moment, without being dishonest about it.
I daresay TWAU is the best thing Telltale Games have ever done.
Edit: Reading some of the comments about the ribbon, it was was understanding that the ribbon seals lips from uttering things the spell caster doesn't want spread. That doesn't stop anyone from from fabricating lies, surely? The lips are only sealed when they try to tell the truth. As the mirror basically says, he will always show things as they are. So the mirror tries to show you Lily and Faith, but he can't.
Eh, I think it was a pretty natural reply, actually. Gren's just saying, 'We know you fucked her and betrayed us, so shut up I don't want to hear you talking about Lily.' Gren wouldn't say 'You already told me what happened' because Woody hasn't explained his arrangement with Lily and Gren is never going to give him a chance to explain. In Gren's mind, Woody's committed the unforgivable.
And if Woody really loved her, he'd ruin the game for us to bring her justice, right then and there.
Anyways, I don't think you're interpreting it right, but what I think about it doesn't actually matter except as another viewpoint. Your interpretation of these lines is valid, so go for it.