Can the forum start talking about Jane's real faults, not fake ones such as selfishness?
Most people here think Jane proved she was an incredibly selfish person in episode 5. I felt the opposite.
She returns to the group when she hears gunfire in order to protect them because she feels guilty for leaving. That's not selfish.
She saves Clem from the ice if she falls in, carried her and runs to the house as quickly as possible with her in her arms. That's not selfish.
She stays behind with Clem when Bonnie, Mike and Arvo try to leave. That's not selifsh.
She tries to convince clem that Kenny will burst at her if she actually accidentally loses the baby, in order to try to protect Clem. That's not selfish.
She tells Clem that whatever she does, she should not get involved in the fight because she might get hurt. That's not selfish.
Whether you like her or not, Jane PROVES that she DOES CARE about Clem.
Please don't make up reasons why Jane is the 'wrong' choice in you opinion. It feels most people are calling her selfish just because Kenny does at the end of the episode.
I just don't understand why you would say she's seflish when she has LOADS of other flaws: she's inconsistent, she's manipulative, she's excessively rude, she still doesn't trust nearly ANYONE. Pick one of those, by all means.
But don't make up unsubstantiated shit about her, because that's just silly, especially when she has plenty of real flaws, as mentioned above, the choose from.
Comments
Frankly, I don't see any of her "Real" flaws to be flaws. But that's just my opinion. That's what this community of Kenny's kiss-ass is failing to understand, EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINION! Ep5's Slogan was "Who will you become?"
Jane is reasonable and that doesn't ring good with irrational madmen, which seems to be the main group that's hating on Jane. It's funny they don't equally hate on Lee though, as Lee and Jane would get along lovely.
Her "inconsistency" is the main reason of her relationship with Clem. She isn't manipulative either (or you never met real manipulative people), she isn't just the social type and is honest about what she thinks about you (if asked). Kenny is wy more manipulative, in a violent instead of a cunning way. Jane just doesn't give a fuck to win you over (exception of Clem, cause Clem is Clem), but will just leave if there is no reason to stay.
Problem is you'd have to know the actual intents of each character to know whether they're acting selflessly or not. Since you can't ever know the actual intents of the characters without reading their minds you'd have to fill in the blanks yourself. That's in part why a lot of the judgements people make up about the different characters are so polarizing. There's no rational way to judge another person's intent, so you have to feel it. People feel different things.
Both Kenny and Jane cared for Clem. Shame they both went crazy. Jane with her lie and Kenny killing Jane over an accident. My Clem was better off alone.
I loved Jane, but I wanted to be with Kenny. I shot him though, looking away seems like the worse option, it would change my Clem. I shot him, and then left Jane out of rage.
I think they're definite problems she has, but she is working to get rid of them.
Exactly.
I genuinely believe that people are only calling her selfish because Kenny did. Because I have not seen one argument as to how she is selfish in episode 5.
I never said she was selfish.I liked her for the most part,and I thought she was an interesting character that had a true survivor mentality and logic.By the end of the episode,I didn't really trusted her anymore.
Mouthing about Kenny's family,trying to turn Clem against him for no reason and lying about the baby.I wish she hadn't done that.
Here's why I think she's wrong. She's a manipulator. She manipulated Kenny, a broken down family man who lost Sarita no more than three days ago, taunting him and tormenting him while he was driving a truck in the snow. You don't want him to go ape-shit while driving. That's just stoopid.
By that logic we can't know if anyone is truly anything.
Actions speak louder than words and all that, and in episode 5 Jane's actions show she cares about Clem.
Exactly, they both did.
Jane and me, Personally, are almost identical. I can be manipulative, I can be very rude If i feel threatened, And I am certainly paranoid and I don't trust anyone. That's why I'm alone. Jane saw the potential in my Clem, She wanted her to live her life by her own rules. And that's why i like her. Some people may see those traits as flaws, But i certainly don't see them that way. But i totally respect the validity of that opinion.
Well, Lee's personality is determinant, but yeah possibly.
It's just....all the people saying it never give ANY evidence!
My mind just cannot comprehend why they have that view!
That's a very understandable course of action.
I never said you specifically were saying it, just lots of the KDB have been.
She was trying to turn Clem against him for a reason though. She thought that being with Kenny would put her in danger if in the future she did something like losing the baby.
He started it Itchy and you know it ,and she didn't manipulate him.
She just taunted him back.
But as I said, her manipulating someone is a valid complaint. By all means discuss that.
But she didn't show herself to be selfish.
I agree with the family bit, but to be fair I think it was payback from where in Kenny says to Jane beforehand 'no-one cares about you, no-one loves you, you're nothing'.
If she deems them worthy. That's also a trait of my personality.
Yeah, and Kenny never manipulated people by being a violent brute that threatened everyone that disagreed with him.
I think Jane does trust some people.
That's the thing about relationships between people. You can never know what another person is really like so you have to make up your mind about who they are yourself, for instance by giving them the benefit of the doubt. Can you give an example of how Jane's actions show that she cares about Clementine without making your own interpretation of Jane's intent?
Yeah, getting angry at Kenny in the car wasn't manipulation.
Jane isn't paranoid though, she has quite the good sensor of what people are up to and what not. That's not paranoia.
Agreed.But , She only manipulated selflessly.
That's how the mind of Kennys work. They don't care for reason or evidence or rationality. They just act on their petty emotions and think that justifies about anything. My mind can perfectly comprehend this behavior considering that humans evolved from stupid apes.
Yes, it shows only that Jane isn't that cold-hearted bitch people claim her to be. That scene in the car actually was more in accord with her real emotions about Kenny.
I think the entire hiding the baby debacle shows she cared about Clem. The entire point of it was to show her that Kenny could flip out on her, and to convince her that he isn't the best option.
Why would she try to convince her to stay with her if she didn't care about her?
Furthermore, if Jane didn't give a shit about Clem at all, why would she save her from the ice?
Not just threatened. Punched. Abused.
I guess I just wanted to believe that most of them were better than that.
Well, at least we are steadily reclaiming the forum from their grasp, considering they are starting to realise their arguments mostly have no basis.
Very true.
Of course, you are right. Forget that little thing about actually brutalizing on people. People seem to have a strange understanding of manipulative behavior. They only see smart and cunning people as manipulative instead of the more prevalent blunt and straight out threatening bullies.
Well, Jane risked AJ freezing to death to prove her 'point' and manipulated Clem into killing Kenny. And she believes in abandoning people once they become a problem(Jaime, Sarah). These are her biggest faults.
Nope, She returned because of Luke. And when Luke died, she felt like this is not her group anymore, so she starts the fight with Kenny in order to convince Clem to follow her and leave together. That's pretty selfish.
The whole season she showed so much care for Clem.
Showing her how to scavenge walkers, how to effectively fight them, she gave her the nail file as a useful tool and weapon when she left, she came back to save her from the russians ("90% of the reason I came back"), she pulled her out of the lake and finally she wanted her away from Kenny who more and more grew into a madman, that she (not only with Carver) has experienced over and over again.
Jane is the one person in the whole season that is independent and self-sufficient to get along without any help. If there is any reason for her to come back and involve herself with a group of people then it's because she deeply cares about Clem. It's absolutely obvious.
I agree in that you "think", but I disagree with that you know. That's the point, you can't ever know. There's a lot of possible motivations and you've decided which one seems more plausible to your own bias. You have to recognize is that other people might have decided Jane had other motivations in their own bias which could give an impression of selfishness. Only Jane would objectively know what her intents were. It's not wrong to think that Jane is selfless or selfish, honest or manipulating, caring or cold.
Uhm, Luke was the "10%" reason she came back. The group was never "her group", she didn't even say a word to Luke when she left. There was a bit of care for Luke, but the main reason was Clem. The group didn't split up because Jane had some cunning and deceiving scheme, but because of Kenny.
You are making stuff up, sorry. It's just not what happened in the plot.
If only I can upvote all day.
You're not serious.Seriously , you're joking.
By that motherfuckin' logic everything you said must be applied to Kenny.
We can never 'know' anything about anyone's motivations.
In a debate between Jane and Kenny, we have to go by the evidence we have.
It IS wrong to believe those things if you can't give any evidence for it other than 'who knows'.
By your lgoic I can believe Kenny secretly wants to eat the baby because we never know and that would be a perfectly logical viewpoint.
I understand you're trying to say all views are valid, but when some views have evidence to back them up and their opposites don't, you have to prioritise somewhere.
Genius!!!I mean it.
That means I'm a motherfucking Genius.Of course I mean well.
AJ was not at any real risk as she didn't plan for it to get to a stage where Kenyn might kill her.
She believes that, but shows growth about it. She shows a lot of character growth if you convicne her to save Sarah.
She expresses a desire to change, and regrets her past actions, which is what sets her apart from kenny.