Relationships and Sexism
So I signed up for this program that was offered at my school to help people with dating (in case you haven't deduced yet, I'm pretty much a loser, so). There was supposed to be the first class this day, (it was postponed due to a gas leak in the building o_O) and when I got there, before it was cancelled, the extreme majority were men. I mean there was literally one woman there. Maybe more signed up and hadn't arrived yet, but it still seems like it'll be a sausage fest. My big question is, why? I have a couple of theories (or more hypotheses) I'm throwing out and I'm curious what people thought.
1) Is it that men are basically a bunch of horndogs and so they're the ones who would seek out help on trying to get somebody in the sack.
2) The onus in starting a relationship is on the male, he is expected to be pursuer, active, confident - due to sexism men are basically the subjects of the relationships, whereas women need only to be there "All she must contribute is her existence. She need achieve nothing, for she is the award of achievement" - Germaine Greer "We have been inculcated so much by the idea of a sexual exchange of female beauty and male ability that it appears natural." - Park Eun-Hee
3) Our society belittles women who are overt in trying to pursue relationships, and therefore a woman at that kind of program would be looked down upon; while pretty much everybody there would be looked down upon, other they (we) wouldn't be there, women have it far worse than men.
Basically, I saw the gender disproportion and it really bothered me. Something seemed wrong, but I don't know what, and I was curious what other people (especially around the world) thought.
I can get into a totally huge rant here if people want, about gender roles, sexuality, and the such, but I´m not that revved up right now and I know that´d be TR:DR
Comments
I think it's a combination of 2) and 3), with the emphasis on 3).
If a woman went to a program teaching about how to get into relationships and sustain them, they would often be viewed as either 'needy' or 'slutty'. Guys don't suffer from that problem.
I agree with you about our society punishing forward women, but as far as 'needy,' males get that all the time. I've been called that tons... Needy, desperate, etc...
I still reckon women get it more.
If a woman hits on a guy at a bar, she's desperate and needy. If a guy does the same, no-one would bat an eye.
Same as how if a woman sleeps with lots of people she's a whore, and if a man sleeps with lots of people he's a 'player' and a 'lad'.
Oh, yeah, I agree with that (I mean agree it's a problem, especially for women);
I don't know if I'm interpreting it too much into my own situation, but sort of the idea of lacking 'confidence' (which, it took me a long time to distinguish from self-esteem; the latter I value, the former, not so much) - IE 'if you want a girlfriend, you shouldn't care about having a girlfriend,' etc. I'm somewhat straying from point 3 (and probably making this a bit too much about myself). I'm not sure if we're using the word 'needy' differently though.
Or a buch of guys need help to find a good girlfriend they can love. Girls usually have an easier time than guys, dont at it like its sexist or thats all youll see.
...if one gender has something easier than another then there's obviously sexism involved somewhere.
Needy as in is desperate to be in a relationship in order to push one's own problems onto someone else.
Im just saying that they went to a class on dating advice, they probably need dating advice. Its not about girls being too scared to go or guys only thinking about sex. Maybe those people NEEDED the advice, maybe other girls didnt care about relationships or thought theirs was just fine. Maybe the guys needed help in their relationship because they felt like they werent trying their hardest and wanted to know how, or they are guys that want to date but have anxiety or something.
Dont think somethings sexist when its pure coincidence.
Eh, not necessarily. Women are biologically driven to be more selective than men are. That's not really sexism. That's just sex differences.
How can you conclusively say it isn't about girls being too scared to go? How can you conclusively show that it's pure coincidence?
Now, we're not saying it IS sexism, but it is certainly a possibility. And one which we're exploring. You have absolutely no way of showing that it is 100% coincidental.
Just like you its a possibility, something we also need to explore.
Sarangholic can tell us better than either of us. Did the girl look worried, scared, or embarrassed? Were the guys talking about sex the whole time? Or were they trying to get advice on dating?
These answers can help decide if its sexism or coincidence, I hate when people automatically jump to sexism.
But sex differences are never 100% true outside of physical ones like breasts and vaginas, and even then the lines are fuzzy.
If you can give me one 'women are ALWAYS x' that isn't to do with genitalia or sexual organs, I'd like to hear it.
Now, we can say women are OFTEN biologically driven to be more selective than men are, but not that there are.
Also, there's a strong argument for believing that the way one is raised in society makes most evolutionary instincts mute. It's evolutionary natural for men to kill people who try to have sex with a girl they also, but most in our society would never do that. And they don't.
Thus women being more selective could easily be put down to society. Like, society making it that men should be the ones to chase women and not the other way around.
And that's to do with sexism in society, i.e. society treating people differently purely because of their biological sex.
Well, this is actually a fairly recent thing in human history. Crimes like adultery, having sex with a nobleman betrothed, etc used to have been punishable by death. Even now, "crime of passion" laws are still a thing. Hell, it's why a lot of us gave Lee a pass on his past crimes.
Social trends sometimes stem from biological ones and I think this might be such a case. I don't deny that there is a bias in how society views gender roles when it comes to dating, but I think it's a bit overeager to just assume that the bias created the trend rather than the other way around.
But we aren't assuming, we're speculating. We're not saying it's 100% true that it is sexism, we're just thinking what other reasons there could be and deciding that for us that is one of the more likely ones.
It IS a fairly recent thing in human history, and should be continued. We're starting to realise that we have ingrained sexism, racism and homophobia (most often of all due to fear of the unknown in all three cases, as men globally are far more influential than women, white people more so than coloured people, and straight people more so than gay people), and this should be changed.
Speculating is fine. I just take issue with "...if one gender has something easier than another then there's obviously sexism involved somewhere." Sometimes one gender has something easier than another simply because there are gender differences. We should try to rectify injustices, but not all all differences constitute injustices. Sometimes it's okay for a woman to have an easier time doing something than a man or vice versa.
LOL yes and no. It depends on what you're talking about.
I meant getting guys to talk to them. XD
I know what you meant.
I think it's a mix of all three points. Mostly 3 though for me.
As a 22 year old woman whom has never had a man attracted to me, and as a 22 year old woman who was turned down by every man I've ever admitted my feelings too, all I can really say is it would be nice to have a guy make a attempt to talk to me first. So, yeah, I think in general it's viewed that men are supposed to be the ones who make the first move in a relationship. So, I would just assume for me personally, generally guys would like more insight on how to make that first move if that's the societal pressure that's been pinned on them.
The way it goes around where I live, is if a girl is the first one to talk to a guy, then she's either a slut or pushy. If a guy is the first one to say something, then he's either thirsty or he's a 'gentlemen'.
But both sexes get their fair share of criticism and hate. So yeah.
One thing is though about myself, that when I was around the age of 14 - 20 all I was obsessed with was getting a boyfriend. I was on multiple dating websites and really trying to make myself available. I didn't get anyone interested in me, so, I just kinda left. Just recently I really found I don't want to be in a relationship, not because I'm not attracted to men all of the sudden, but I'd rather be spending time working on myself rather than spending time with someone else.
Also, I'd like to get on my own two feet without the help of a spouse, so, basically I'm trying to make it so where I can live on my own and sustain myself without anyone else. Maybe women aren't all that interested in dating / marrying anymore because more and more of us are attempting to make ourselves self-reliant so we don't really date until we're ready. Guys, I feel like, are generally always looking for someone to bang. No matter what phase of life their in and what age they are, men are just more sex oriented, while women aren't. I don't mean offense to guys, but I haven't ever had a guy friend who didn't have banging a hot girl on his mind almost every time I talked to them. They also usually have a new girlfriend every few months.
Lol well I know you and me have already has this convo so you know I'm like the ultimate man deterrent. XD
It's because the class was advertised as "Help With Dating." I took a different sort of class in college, an upper division class called "Psychology of Relationships" that dealt with more than just the meeting part, and that attracted equal numbers of women and men.
Yes, but youre not bad, youre AWESOME.
Thanks Pal!
But sadly It doesn't matter how 'awesome' I am, lol, if I won't put out a man isn't gonna wanna waste his time with me.
Like Clem can say "Not all men are like that", im not like that.
Lol! Look what happens to the good ones though! They all dead son! XD
Poor Luke and Lee ;_ ;
MOURNING
I'm a guy. I can say that it's OK for women to ask men out, but in my own experience, those always turned into just-for-sex relationships that didn't last too long. Because when you don't have a girlfriend and one is offering, it's hard to say no, even if you're not that compatible. When it came to seeking a more-than-just-sex relationship, it was someone whose personality I learned about in advance, and I was the one who did the asking.
I think you're on the right track, getting your own life together rather than worrying about getting into a relationship, and when something eventually happens, you'll be ready.
Yeah, I got cha man.
Me personally, I don't know if it's a man thing or a woman thing or both sexes are okay with and actively seek hookups. But I have absolutely no interest in hookups. Like, random sex doesn't do anything for me. It's just an unnecessary risk IMO of me either winding up pregnant, or with and STD. I know some girls who are fine with hookups and casual sex, but for me personally I don't feel there's anything good that comes out of a hookup for me personally. Emotionally or Sexually.
Thank you.
And yeah, a know a LOT of girls my age who are also reaching this point, and feel that they've had society push it on them that they need to get married ASAP so that they have someone other than their parents to depend on. Now they're seeing they want to take care of themselves without ever having to rely on someone else.
I wonder if it's also a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing. Personally, I wasn't really that surprised when you told me that there were mostly men in that class. So maybe women are also expecting a higher ratio of males coming into the class and that expectation dissuades them from coming in. I can see how a woman who's nervous about dating might think twice about taking a dating class with a bunch of guys.
Actually she seemed pretty calm - it's hard to tell because it lasted only three or so minutes (because of the gas leak) so we had to evacuate the building and the class was cancelled until next week. I didn't really hear anybody saying much of anything; those the woman didn't seem particularly bothered by being the only one there.
At least in my case, when I say sexism, I'm talking about gender roles specifically, and to a lesser extent double standards (ie: pimp v slut)
Well it seems like she wasnt worried about being called such horrible words as slut or whore. Still though some idiots will call her those.
I have to study more on this topic, it's of great interested to me, admittedly in some selfish aspects - but one article that was really good on the whole thing was "Tate, C. Addressing Conceptual Confusions About Evolutionary Theorizing: How and Why Evolutionary Psychology and Feminism do not Oppose each other, Sex Roles, 2012"
I don't know why, but part of it was the ad was talking about a class of 20 men and women, trying to find peoples own problems in dating and trying to find ways to overcome them, including 'practice' (which I took to mean brief roleplay exercises) - and with the 20 I was thinking it would be 10 and 10.
Well it wouldn't be the same situation everywhere, in my school barely anyone dates anyone.
Why do you think a man has never been attracted to you?
All people do these days is associate women with sex.As a result, any woman who pursues a relationship is viewed as slutty. It's really all about sex when you think about.
Well, I'm fat, I'm ugly, I have really bad anxiety talking to men in real life and have never had men or a man show interest in me so I don't talk to them ever unless I absolutely have to. So, yeah, everything that makes a woman undesirable is basically the definition of me.
all I can really say is it would be nice to have a guy make a attempt to talk to me first.
I have made an attempt.
I agree. Sadly a lot of guys are like that (I'm not one of them). Women tend to be viewed as sex objects and not real people.
Youre too hard on yourself.
Then youre hanging around the wrong people.