Honestly? I don't really care.
Why would you? You're already dead-set in your arrogant ways. Which is fine, but don't use a clip… more of a random crazy lady you found on Youtube and then state that's why you want women to be oppressed. Do some research.
Most Feminists in America are Feminazis
Really? Ok then...
What opportunities don't women have? Just because there aren't equal numbers of women in power doesn't mean there have to be in order to fulfill some quota or else it's sexist and oppressive. It would be sexist if there weren't any woman in political power, or they weren't allowed to run or be in power in the first place.
Personally, I believe gender roles are more beneficial than detrimental. There are some things that could be fixed( like the stigma that boys can't show emotions/cry, or girls have to look a specific way in order to be considered universally attractive) But for the most part they have worked fine, so I don't think it's necessary to eliminate them completely. They have worked for so long for a reason.
But what I'm really trying to stress is it's not about who is better than whom, or forcing somebody down on their knees. It's about moving forward as a society.
It's not modern Feminism you're looking for then. It's merely a guise that they want equality, it's pretty obvious that the majority of the movement want gender superiority. It may have been about equality to begin with, but something toxic got in and now the whole ideology is infected. What you're looking for is Egalitarianism.
All I'm saying is I don't think these problems are as dire as you're making them out to be. Sexual harassment is definitely not as bad as it used to be, women have a lot opportunities in the political and work force, and I'd argue that we're favored more than men in several aspects of life. I appreciate what I have here in America, and I believe myself to be equal to men with the opportunities I already have, and to hear that there are women who think we need "more, more, more", when we already have so much is just frustrating and disheartening. I don't like that Feminism makes women victimize themselves and demonize men. It's not moving Society forward in the least, all it's doing is driving a wedge between the two genders.
I just mentioned race because you mentioned women being in high political positions - being represented in high positions isn't really a val… moreid argument against discrimination. Yes, it means people can, it doesn't mean that the opportunities are equal.
I'm not sure what culture you live in, but I really don't believe the expectations are universal, even among adults. As to the 'sexual deviance' (putting gender aside for a second), that's a whole other topic we have talked about, and I disagree wholeheratedly, but that's another discussion for another day I think.
I agree that it's horrible that men are discouraged from expressing their emotions, or do anything considered girly (believe me, I'll be the first one to say that). I call myself a feminist because I believe in dismantling those gender roles, as I believe they are harmful to both genders (and, I say feminist, both because of the body of literature associated with feminism, and a… [view original content]
What is your opinion on Feminism? Do you support Feminism? why or why not.
Feminism. I don't know, i'm not really the correct person to ask. I guess it depends on what issues they're talking about. I don't believe anyone should be abused, and i wish Feminists would be a little bit more understanding to other people; not every man is a evil bastard who wants to see women in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant, we all have sisters, mothers, daughters that we love/respect.
By "slut-shaming," I mean assuming that a woman who wears revealing clothes is automatically someone who sleeps around or that a woman who sleeps around is any less capable of being sexually assaulted or is to be held accountable for the violence that someone else chose to inflict on her.
I don't think women who act like sluts are to blame for violence inflicted upon them at all. I never said anything even remotely close to that. It's not ok to abuse anyone, regardless of gender. The only person to blame is the perpetrator, but that doesn't mean the potential victim shouldn't take precautions to protect themselves. When I say slut shaming, I meant that the lifestyle of sleeping around with multiple sex partners shouldn't be encouraged, nor should dressing like you're working the corner be encouraged. I also never said the amount of skin showing means they're asking to be raped. Now the amount of alcohol you consume, and the level of caution you choose to practice in a public and unfamiliar place doesn't mean you're asking to be raped, but it sure as hell makes you more at risk. There are sick people out there, and when you act recklessly and get drunk in a bar, or some other sketchy place, you're in danger of being taken advantage of. This goes for both genders. And unfortunately, what you're wearing does contribute to the risk of being raped, for example a woman wearing a dress/skirt is more likely to be preyed upon than a woman wearing pants, because it's easier to rape a girl that is wearing less material.
Catcalling is not that bad. And it doesn't happen as often as people say it does. I think the level of sexual objectification is pretty equal. Men have an unrealistic image to live up to, and as do women. For men it's that they're expected to be in really good shape, thin, have muscles/abs, nice skin, tall etc. Girls are expected to be thin, always have their makeup and hair looking nice, curves etc. Girls will say a guy who they don't find attractive is being creepy when they hit on her, but if it's a hot guy, then it's welcome and ok. It goes both ways, and neither are worse that the other in my opinion.
So? As I said to another user, just because there aren't perfectly equal numbers of men and women in a line of work doesn't mean it's sexist or oppressive. Just happens that a line of work attracts one gender more than the other. There are always going to be stereotypes, it's only hindering when you make it hindering to yourself. Then break the stereotype, plenty of women have and are able to. And I don't really want to get into a political debate, but Hilary Clinton being criticized the way she is doesn't have anything to do with her being a woman. Men and women are different. There are disadvantages and advantages to both genders, an outdated toxic movement like Modern Feminism isn't going to change anything for the better.
By "slut-shaming," I mean assuming that a woman who wears revealing clothes is automatically someone who sleeps around or that a woman who s… moreleeps around is any less capable of being sexually assaulted or is to be held accountable for the violence that someone else chose to inflict on her. If you personally feel that there's something inherently wrong with sexual promiscuity among both men and women, that's fine as long as you acknowledge that it's merely a personal preference rather than an objective moral truth that has some bearing on matters of sexual assault or harassment. If you read a news story about a woman getting sexually assaulted while passed out at a party and find yourself concerned with what she was wearing or how much she had to drink, there's something wrong with that. No amount of alcohol you consume or skin you show constitutes you "asking" to get raped.
There is male sexual objectification, yes, but definitely not to ex… [view original content]
Catcalling is not that bad. And it doesn't happen as often as people say it does. I think the level of sexual objectification is pretty equal. Men have an unrealistic image to live up to, and as do women. For men it's they're expected to be in really good shape, thin, have muscles/abs, nice skin, tall etc. Girls are expected to be thin, always have their makeup and hair looking nice, curves etc. Girls will say a guy who they don't find attractive is being creepy when they hit on her, but if it's a hot guy, then it;s welcomed and ok. It goes both ways, and neither are worse that the other in my opinion
When you get older, maybe its just me, none of that shit matters,
By "slut-shaming," I mean assuming that a woman who wears revealing clothes is automatically someone who sleeps around or that a woman who s… moreleeps around is any less capable of being sexually assaulted or is to be held accountable for the violence that someone else chose to inflict on her.
I don't think women who act like sluts are to blame for violence inflicted upon them at all. I never said anything even remotely close to that. It's not ok to abuse anyone, regardless of gender. The only person to blame is the perpetrator, but that doesn't mean the potential victim shouldn't take precautions to protect themselves. When I say slut shaming, I meant that the lifestyle of sleeping around with multiple sex partners shouldn't be encouraged, nor should dressing like you're working the corner be encouraged. I also never said the amount of skin showing means they're asking to be raped. Now the amount of alcohol you consume, and the level of c… [view original content]
Catcalling is not that bad. And it doesn't happen as often as people say it does. I think the level of sexual objectification is pretty equa… morel. Men have an unrealistic image to live up to, and as do women. For men it's they're expected to be in really good shape, thin, have muscles/abs, nice skin, tall etc. Girls are expected to be thin, always have their makeup and hair looking nice, curves etc. Girls will say a guy who they don't find attractive is being creepy when they hit on her, but if it's a hot guy, then it;s welcomed and ok. It goes both ways, and neither are worse that the other in my opinion
When you get older, maybe its just me, none of that shit matters,
Catcalling is not that bad. And it doesn't happen as often as people say it does. I think the level of sexual objectification is pretty equa… morel. Men have an unrealistic image to live up to, and as do women. For men it's they're expected to be in really good shape, thin, have muscles/abs, nice skin, tall etc. Girls are expected to be thin, always have their makeup and hair looking nice, curves etc. Girls will say a guy who they don't find attractive is being creepy when they hit on her, but if it's a hot guy, then it;s welcomed and ok. It goes both ways, and neither are worse that the other in my opinion
When you get older, maybe its just me, none of that shit matters,
When I say slut shaming, I meant that the lifestyle of sleeping around with multiple sex partners shouldn't be encouraged, nor should dressing like you're working the corner be encouraged.
Again, it's fine to have those personal feelings regarding promiscuity, but it becomes a problem when people bring those personal feelings into judgment of victims of rape or harassment. If you feel that a woman who dresses provocatively or is very promiscuous has done something immoral, it might make you less sympathetic and more accusatory towards her when she becomes a victim. This leads to people getting the idea that rape is somehow worse when it happens to woman who has had two sexual partners and dresses conservatively than when it happens to a woman who has had twenty sexual partners and dresses provocatively. And it's not. (To be clear, I'm not necessarily accusing you of holding any of these views, I'm just stating my stance on them.)
Catcalling is not that bad. And it doesn't happen as often as people say it does.
I think it's not that bad for you. It doesn't happen that often to you. It could be that you don't live in a densely populated urban area where it's more of a problem, but yes, it does happen fairly often.
I think the level of sexual objectification is pretty equal. Men have an unrealistic image to live up to, and as do women.
To be sure, males face scrutiny for their physical appearance as well, but I think there is less emphasis for males than for females. In addition to their physical appearance, men are also measured to a large degree by their professional success, earning potential, confidence, and social skills. When a man has troubles with women, those are some of the other things that he's told he can work on to improve his chances. A woman who has troubles with men, on the other hand, seems to be restricted to making herself more attractive or making herself more available. Essentially, men are told that they can improve their chances at romancing women by becoming doctors; women are told that they can improve their chances at romancing men by becoming prettier.
So? As I said to another user, just because there aren't perfectly equal numbers of men and women in a line of work doesn't mean it's sexist or oppressive.
It doesn't necessarily mean it's due to sexism or some degree of oppression, but it might be, so it's important for us to do what we can to make sure it's not. Especially when it comes to matters such as political representation in the government. Stereotypes don't just hinder people who feel hindered by them. If voters see a woman as automatically weaker of a leader than a man simply because she's a woman, there's not a whole lot she can do about that. At least alone. But more women getting into positions of political power, encouraging other women to do the same, and spreading the message that women can be just as effective as men in leading, will eventually, hopefully dispel that stereotype. That's what feminism is (at least the form of it that I subscribe to).
Overall, I think it's a mistake to regard feminism as a single monolithic entity with one hardline stance against all things men and male. There's lots of different types of feminism, with lots of different goals and approaches, and aside from a small minority of extremists, they all have the common aim of achieving gender equality. If you haven't already, I would recommend reading up a bit on the different types of feminism out there and what their stances are. I think you'll fine that it's far more of a rich tapestry than you might think.
By "slut-shaming," I mean assuming that a woman who wears revealing clothes is automatically someone who sleeps around or that a woman who s… moreleeps around is any less capable of being sexually assaulted or is to be held accountable for the violence that someone else chose to inflict on her.
I don't think women who act like sluts are to blame for violence inflicted upon them at all. I never said anything even remotely close to that. It's not ok to abuse anyone, regardless of gender. The only person to blame is the perpetrator, but that doesn't mean the potential victim shouldn't take precautions to protect themselves. When I say slut shaming, I meant that the lifestyle of sleeping around with multiple sex partners shouldn't be encouraged, nor should dressing like you're working the corner be encouraged. I also never said the amount of skin showing means they're asking to be raped. Now the amount of alcohol you consume, and the level of c… [view original content]
I understand your point, any instance of rape is horrible, no matter who the victim is, or what gender they are. No one deserves it, but the fact that there are several precautions that can be taken to lower a person's risk of rape still stands. Rape is wrong, but it still happens, and yelling at people about how wrong it is isn't going to change that it unfortunately will always happen. What I'm asserting is that Feminism isn't helping this cause by blaming all men, and saying all men are rapists. Women rape too, and overall, men are raped just as much, if not more than women. By excluding men, and saying they're the only predators and that this is an issue pertaining only to women is extremely insensitive and completely untrue. Feminism isn't contributing positively to fixing the problem, they don't contribute positively to any problem they try to "fix" really.
I'm not excusing catcalling, but I don't think it's that difficult to ignore, and then go on with your day. I get annoyed when I'm walking to work and some guy comes up to me and starts hitting on me, but it's over in a few minutes and then I go on with my life. I don't think it's something that you can change just by saying it pisses girls off when they're whistled at. This is nothing new, everyone knows that girls don't like it, and most men don't appreciate the catcalls girls get either. But there are still scumbags who're going to do it, and the best thing to do is ignore them. If they make you feel unsafe, then have a stun gun/pepper spray with you, or even a gun. Have somebody walk you to and from your car, I do it all the time when I go to the market at night. It's not this huge epidemic that requires as much media attention as it's getting.
In addition to their physical appearance, men are also measured to a large degree by their professional success, earning potential, confidence, and social skills. Essentially, men are told that they can improve their chances at romancing women by becoming doctors; women are told that they can improve their chances at romancing men by becoming prettier.
Actually, that puts more pressure on the man. They have to be able to support the girl, which means making a lot money, as well as courting/wooing the girl, and on top of that be attractive in both personality and looks. Having a brother who's on his way to becoming a doctor, I understand just how hard he has to work to get to his goal. Men are required to be the bread winner, where the woman doesn't have to contribute as much, and can stay home if she wants to. So with those attributes you've brought into play, it's actually sounds a lot more difficult for the man than it does for the woman, who just "has to be pretty", which further proves my point that as a woman I am favored more than men in several aspects of life.
There's always going to be a chance that sexism is a possible reason, but feminists' tactic of screaming at people and putting down men isn't going to help their cause or eliminate the stereotype. The majority of America is not as sexist and racist as you're implying, if anything, people who think like that are in the minority. And honestly, all you're doing is speculating that the reason why there aren't as many women in political power is because of sexism, when there is no proof of that being the main reason. It could very well be, and most likely be, that quite a lot of women aren't as interested in a career in politics as men are.
It's not a minority and you know it, you can go on and say that's a different kind of Feminism, but it doesn't change the way in which most feminists choose to act and conduct themselves, which makes the whole movement look really bad. I've researched modern Feminism, and met enough feminists to know that their overall goal is to be catered to and given extra privileges for simply being a woman, while putting down and demonizing men. As a woman, I'm disgusted by it. It's insulting for women to think that they can't accomplish anything on their own without putting down and taking away rights from men. Feminism isn't about gender equality, back in the day it was, but not anymore. Modern Feminism is for gender superiority, Egalitarianism is for equality, you're subscribing to the wrong movement. There's a reason why people like Robin Morgan, or Laci Green immediately come to mind when someone mentions Feminism nowadays, those are the kind of people that run and control your movement, they are the face of modern Feminism. If gender equality truly is your main concern, you would know that modern Feminism is not the movement that's going to help that cause in the least.
When I say slut shaming, I meant that the lifestyle of sleeping around with multiple sex partners shouldn't be encouraged, nor should dressi… moreng like you're working the corner be encouraged.
Again, it's fine to have those personal feelings regarding promiscuity, but it becomes a problem when people bring those personal feelings into judgment of victims of rape or harassment. If you feel that a woman who dresses provocatively or is very promiscuous has done something immoral, it might make you less sympathetic and more accusatory towards her when she becomes a victim. This leads to people getting the idea that rape is somehow worse when it happens to woman who has had two sexual partners and dresses conservatively than when it happens to a woman who has had twenty sexual partners and dresses provocatively. And it's not. (To be clear, I'm not necessarily accusing you of holding any of these views, I'm just stating my stance on them.)
… [view original content]
Raping a female over twitter, facebook, instagram, and ect is impossible. I heard somthing like the other day, a woman accused a man of rape because he made a joke about having sex with woman who doesn't even exist in his YouTube video.
No one deserves it, but the fact that there are several precautions that can be taken to lower a person's risk of rape still stands.
Sure, but not taking those precautions still doesn't mean that a person is to blame for the choice that someone else made to harm them. When it comes to rape, the blame falls only on the person who chose to rape.
Rape is wrong, but it still happens, and yelling at people about how wrong it is isn't going to change that it will always happen.
While it won't make rape go away entirely (and pretty much nothing will), I think instilling greater value and empathy towards women and moving away from the notion that they are sex objects does help. As we saw in the Steubenville case, there are people out there who don't seem to regard rape with the seriousness it deserves. That's a cultural issue as well as an individual one.
What I'm asserting is that Feminism isn't helping this cause by blaming all men, and saying all men are rapists.
Feminism neither blames all men for rape nor claims that all men are rapists. A few fringe members might subscribe to this, but it's certainly not a central doctrine of the movement. Feminists, by and large, acknowledge that males can, in fact, get raped and that females can be rapists. But when they're saying things like "placing blame on victims in rape cases produces a culture that allows rape to do more harm" and get a response like "Well men get raped too," they naturally see it as distracting from the central issue.
I'm not excusing catcalling, but I don't think it's that difficult to ignore, and then go on with your day. I get annoyed when I'm walking to work and some guy comes up to me and starts hitting on me, but it's over in a few minutes and then I go on with my life.
Well, you shouldn't have to deal with that. The fact that that kind of thing happens to you and other women so much more than it happens to me and other men is indicative of a problem with our culture and how we see women. And not everyone reacts to that sort of thing with the sort of pluck that you have. Some people feel really threatened or violated when that happens, maybe because they've face a worse situation before or because they've heard those stories of men violently assaulting women for ignoring them or turning them down. The fact that you feel the need to carry pepper spray or have someone walk you to and from your car when I don't is an injustice in our society.
I don't think it's something that you can change just by saying it pisses girls off when they're whistled at. This is nothing new, everyone knows that.
That's just the thing. Everyone doesn't seem to know that. There are people out there who honestly just see it as a compliment and think that women should care or be flattered that some random dude in the street thinks she's hot. That's why it's important to make people aware of how uncomfortable women feel when they're subjected to those things. Even if it doesn't convince the cat-caller to stop doing, maybe it'll convince a bystander to call that person out on their inappropriate behavior.
I actually think that puts more pressure on the man. They have to be able to support the girl, which means making a lot money, as well as courting/wooing the girl, and on top of that be attractive in both personality and looks. Having a brother who's on his way to being a doctor, I understand just how hard he has to work to get to his goal. Men are required to be the bread winner, where the woman doesn't have to contribute as much, and can stay home if she wants to. So with those attributes you've brought into play, it's actually sounds a lot more difficult for the man than it is the woman, who just "has to be pretty", which further proves my point that as a woman I am favored more than men in several aspects of life.
The issue wasn't "which sex has more pressure placed on it by society," it was "which sex is more sexually objectified." If you agree with my points, then you agree with me that women are more sexually objectified than men. And yeah, feminism is also concerned with the fact that women aren't expected or wanted as breadwinners and that all that's expected or wanted of them is to sit there and look pretty. I wouldn't consider being treated like a trophy as being "favored." You might be content or see it as a blessing to get through life on your looks, but for others, it's a detriment. For a woman who's attractive but wants to succeed on her own intellectual merit, being told that a pretty girl like her shouldn't be working is offensive. And for a woman who's unattractive, being told that she should surgically alter her body or starve herself in order to do better is extremely harmful.
There's always going to be a chance of sexism being a reason, but Feminists' tactic of screaming at people, and putting down men isn't going to help their cause or change it. The majority of America is not as sexist and racist as you're implying, if anything people who think like that are in the minority. And all you're doing is speculating that the reason why there aren't as many women in political power is because of sexism, when there is no proof of that being the reason. It could very well be, and most likely be, that quite a lot of women aren't as interested in a career in politics as men are.
I've been saying that it's possible that the different distributions of men and women in politics might just be because of different preferences between men and women. But the only way to know for sure is to make it so that those are the only factors in play. And that means trying to mitigate those stereotypes and trying to make it easier for women to get into politics.
It's not a minority and you know it, you can go on and say that's a different kind of Feminism, but it doesn't change the way in which most feminists portray themselves as, which makes the whole movement look really bad. I've researched modern Feminism and met enough feminists to know that their overall goal is to be catered to and given extra privileges for being a woman, while putting down and demonizing men. As a woman, I'm disgusted by it. Feminism isn't about gender equality anymore, back in the day it was, but not anymore. Modern Feminism is for gender superiority, Egalitarianism is for equality, you're subscribing to the wrong movement.
I don't know where you're getting the idea that "most" feminists are like how you describe. I personally went to one of the most liberal colleges in the US and have taken gender studies classes there. I've had lots of disagreement with other feminists there, but I never got the sense that being catered to, being given extra privileges, and demonizing men was what they were going for. A lot of them who are radical feminists are opposed to the "patriarchy" as a power system that was formed by men and benefits men in certain ways, but they don't think that every man is an evil scumbag trying to keep women down. It's only natural that those in power enact policies that benefit them and those like them. What they seek to attack is the system in place, not the people in it. A lot of them would that patriarchy should be opposed because it oppresses men as well.
I understand your point, any instance of rape is horrible, no matter who the victim is, or what gender they are. No one deserves it, but the… more fact that there are several precautions that can be taken to lower a person's risk of rape still stands. Rape is wrong, but it still happens, and yelling at people about how wrong it is isn't going to change that it unfortunately will always happen. What I'm asserting is that Feminism isn't helping this cause by blaming all men, and saying all men are rapists. Women rape too, and overall, men are raped just as much, if not more than women. By excluding men, and saying they're the only predators and that this is an issue pertaining only to women is extremely insensitive and completely untrue. Feminism isn't contributing positively to fixing the problem, they don't contribute positively to any problem they try to "fix" really.
I'm not excusing catcalling, but I don't think it's that difficult to ignore,… [view original content]
I think all people should be treated equally but some feminists take things out of hand A LOT so they can be annoying sometimes, and in America it's not really that big of a thing.... or at least it shouldn't be.
I think all people should be treated equally but some feminists take things out of hand A LOT so they can be annoying sometimes, and in America it's not really that big of a thing.... or at least it shouldn't be.
Sure, but not taking those precautions still doesn't mean that a person is to blame for the choice that someone else made to harm them. When it comes to rape, the blame falls only on the person who chose to rape.
I know, I explicitly said it is never the victim's fault if they're raped, but the predator's. Modern Feminism's approach to "solving" this issue is teaching men not to rape, which everyone knows is just illogical, so I went on to list several precautions that both men and women should take to protect themselves, while refraining from placing the blame solely on one gender. Rapists are always going to be around, just as thieves, and murderers are going to be as well. People need to learn to protect themselves from potential threats, not play the blame game.
I think instilling greater value and empathy towards women and moving away from the notion that they are sex objects does help. As we saw in the Steubenville case, there are people out there who don't seem to regard rape with the seriousness it deserves. That's a cultural issue as well as an individual one.
Generally, women aren't regarded as sex objects, and the Steubenville incident is just one case, and the rapists were found guilty in that trial. Just because rape happens, doesn't mean there is "rape culture", because rape would have to be acceptable and legal if there were. Obviously, rape is illegal and in no western society is rape viewed as acceptable in any way. Whoever commits an act of rape is ostracized and rightfully so, just look at what happened to the Steubenville rapists. Rape is a specific act of violent assault in which someone is forced into an act against their will or without their knowledge. Aside from murder, it is the ultimate burglary of individual freedom and, most commonly, an expression of the attacker’s desire for power rather than sexual satisfaction. By saying it is a cultural problem, that rape is being normalized and is being taught to young men and boys, is not only diminishing the seriousness of rape, but is pretty insulting to the men who would never ever touch a woman without their consent, and it's also irrational to claim that we pretty much live in a society where rapists/rape is condoned. A man doesn't have the desire to rape because our Society "over-sexualize" women, he doesn't all of a sudden want to rape because he goes to the strip club/watches too much porn. And as I said before, blaming all men for the crimes of sick individuals is counter productive.
Feminism neither blames all men for rape nor claims that all men are rapists. A few fringe members might subscribe to this, but it's certainly not a central doctrine of the movement.
Either you're legitimately unaware of how large and vocal the majority of crazy feminists are, or you refuse to see it. The radicals are not a small minority like you seem to think, they are the leaders of your movement, and are the driving force behind it. There are more than just a few bad apples in Feminism, what these people do is inexcusable and unjustifiable. If the level headed and rational feminists don't like what their movement has become they should do something about it. Not say it's a different type of feminism, or that the crazy ones aren't real feminists etc. (Saying they aren't real feminists is a perfect example of the No True Scotsman logical fallacy by the way.)
Well, you shouldn't have to deal with that. The fact that that kind of thing happens to you and other women so much more than it happens to me and other men is indicative of a problem with our culture and how we see women. And not everyone reacts to that sort of thing with the sort of pluck that you have. Some people feel really threatened or violated when that happens, maybe because they've face a worse situation before or because they've heard those stories of men violently assaulting women for ignoring them or turning them down. The fact that you feel the need to carry pepper spray or have someone walk you to and from your car when I don't is an injustice in our society
Eh, it is what it is. Everyone is going to be uncomfortable or feel threatened by something/someone at one point in their life, catcalling is one of those things that you just need to brush off. Telling women that they are victims, and should be terrified every time they're catcalled at isn't empowering or helping women. Catcalling isn't cultural, if it were than it would be praised and accepted. It's not, it is tolerated because you can't force scumbags to act like gentlemen, that's just the way it is. If a woman feels unsafe, take precaution as I said before, buy a stun gun/pepper spray/handgun, learn self defense, don't go to any sketchy areas alone etc. Yes, ideally, you shouldn't have to take precautions, but it's just the reality of the situation. It would be like saying "I shouldn't lock my doors, because burglars shouldn't rob my house!" You're still going to lock your doors, because you have common sense, and know that burglars don't care what's right and what's wrong.
There are people out there who honestly just see it as a compliment and think that women should care or be flattered that some random dude in the street thinks she's hot. That's why it's important to make people aware of how uncomfortable women feel when they're subjected to those things. Even if it doesn't convince the cat-caller to stop doing, maybe it'll convince a bystander to call that person out on their inappropriate behavior.
Well, I've had annoying and vulgar catcalls that I don't appreciate or acknowledge, but I've also had genuine compliments from people I don't know saying things like "wow, you're pretty", "hi beautiful", or "have a nice day darling", and they don't bother me. They aren't hurting me or any girl when they compliment my appearance or wish me a good day. Modern Feminism encourages women to be scared of every man they meet who so much as smiles at them, saying they are a potential rapist/predator, and that all men are bad. This type of mentality is demonizing the good men out there, and it's extremely unfair. The guys who say gross things are creeps and aren't going to change, even if by some crazy chance they don't know they're making women uncomfortable. It's unfathomable to me that you don't understand that they just don't care how they're making women feel, and people need to recognize this and move on.
The issue wasn't "which sex has more pressure placed on it by society," it was "which sex is more sexually objectified." If you agree with my points, then you agree with me that women are more sexually objectified than men...I wouldn't consider being treated like a trophy as being "favored." You might be content or see it as a blessing to get through life on your looks, but for others, it's a detriment. For a woman who's attractive but wants to succeed on her own intellectual merit, being told that a pretty girl like her shouldn't be working is offensive. And for a woman who's unattractive, being told that she should surgically alter her body or starve herself in order to do better is extremely harmful.
I believe both genders are objectified sexually, this was already established in my previous posts. The problem is that both are being sexually objectified, it is irrelevant which one "wins" at being more sexually objectified. Women aren't unwanted as breadwinners, if anything they're praised and encouraged a lot more than the women who just want to be stay at home moms. I've been attacked by quite a few feminists at my college, and told I have "internalized misogyny" for wanting to stay at home and raise my children when I get married, instead of being a career woman. I didn't say anything about being a trophy, all I mean is that life is a lot easier for a woman once she "gets a man", because it's expected of that man to take care of her, and provide for her needs/wants. If a woman seriously see's her beauty as a handicap in her career, then not only is that just plain stupid, it's pretty self centered too. As for the women who see themselves as less attractive, that's a personal self esteem issue, not something that Feminism is ever going to fix.
I've been saying that it's possible that the different distributions of men and women in politics might just be because of different preferences between men and women. But the only way to know for sure is to make it so that those are the only factors in play. And that means trying to mitigate those stereotypes and trying to make it easier for women to get into politics.
I have yet to see any women in power, or women running for political positions being discouraged, or looked down upon just because she's female. If by some chance anyone has said anything sexist about women in power is usually the ones who are called out for their sexist statement, and put in their place by others. I believe you're creating more problems where there are none.
I feel like you're really cut off from your movement if that's what you honestly believe.The Patriarchy myth has also been debunked quite a while ago, just saying.
No one deserves it, but the fact that there are several precautions that can be taken to lower a person's risk of rape still stands.
… more Sure, but not taking those precautions still doesn't mean that a person is to blame for the choice that someone else made to harm them. When it comes to rape, the blame falls only on the person who chose to rape.
Rape is wrong, but it still happens, and yelling at people about how wrong it is isn't going to change that it will always happen.
While it won't make rape go away entirely (and pretty much nothing will), I think instilling greater value and empathy towards women and moving away from the notion that they are sex objects does help. As we saw in the Steubenville case, there are people out there who don't seem to regard rape with the seriousness it deserves. That's a cultural issue as well as an individual one.
What I'm asserting is that Feminism isn't helping this cause by blam… [view original content]
Why would you? You're already dead-set in your arrogant ways
Nope, please be respectful yourself.
don't use a clip of a random… more crazy lady you found on Youtube
Did you watch it? It is a feminist, please watch something before you start your own rant.
then state that's why you want women to be oppressed
Did I state that? No. Women aren't oppressed, stop living in the past.
Do some research.
Read.
Really? Ok then...
Yes.
Generally women aren't regarded as sex objects, and the Steubenville incident is just one case, and the rapists were found guilty in that trial. Just because rape happens, doesn't mean there is "rape culture", because rape would have to be acceptable if there were. In no western society is rape viewed as acceptable in any way.
The telling thing about the Steubenville case isn't the act of the rape itself. It's the brazenness and callousness with which the perpetrators documented and shared their act. It's the dozens of students passing around the photos of someone being violated and thinking it's funny or okay. It's the community reaction of trying to shield "their boys" from prosecution and the anger and blame aimed at the victim for "putting herself in that situation". It's the people downplaying of acts of date rape or rape of someone who's intoxicated as a lesser form of rape. It's the news reports lamenting the loss of two talented high school athletes rather than condemning the monstrous acts they committed. That's what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture. And Steubenville is far from the only case where this happens. Is rape generally viewed as acceptable in society? No. But in too many cases, it really isn't treated with the seriousness it deserves.
Either you're legitimately unaware to how large and vocal the majority of crazy feminists are, or you refuse to see it. The radicals are not a small minority like you seem to think, they are the leaders of your movement, and are the driving force behind it.
They're certainly are the loudest voices, but they aren't the most numerous. Like I said, I'm been in places that should have been hotbeds for the crazy "feminazis" people talk about and yet I hardly saw a one. When it comes to real life, honestly, the extreme feminists I've encountered are few and far between. (The internet is, of course, a different story as it's always going to be a gathering place for crazies and trolls of all groups.)
If the level headed and rational feminists don't like what their movement has become they should do something about it. Not say it's a different type of feminism, or that the crazy ones aren't real feminists etc.
What do you propose that they do? What action can moderate members of a movement do against the more extreme ones other than say "Hey, those people's attitudes do not represent my attitudes or the attitudes of the movement as a whole"? The expectation that people have animosity towards their own label because of the actions of some of their members is exactly what I find disagreeable about extreme feminists.
Everyone is going to be uncomfortable or feel threatened by something/someone at one point in their life, catcalling is one of those things that you just need to brush off.
I see it the same way I see bullying. In most instances, it's something that can be brushed off or dealt with on a case by case basis, but we should still do what we can to try to stop it from being so prevalent. Yes, bullying is probably always going to be a thing, but if we teach kids to not be tolerant of it, maybe we can make it less of a thing.
If a woman feels unsafe, take precaution as I said before, buy a stun gun/pepper spray/handgun, learn self defense, don't go to any sketchy areas alone etc. Yes, ideally, you shouldn't have to take precautions, but it's just the reality of the situation.
And feminists do encourage women to do those things. They just also want to tackle the problem at what they see as its roots, rather than just treating the symptoms. It's like giving a few dollars to the poor is good and helpful, but it's also important to promote economic equality in the society at large to decrease the number of people who find themselves in poverty in the first place.
I've also had genuine compliments from people I don't know saying things like "wow, you're pretty", "hi beautiful", or "have a nice day darling", and they don't bother me. Those are genuine compliments, and they aren't hurting me or any girl when they compliment my appearance.
Well, like I said, they might be hurting people who've experience worse kinds of harassment or even assault before. You might not think it's a big deal that someone is checking you out, but others who've had different experiences do. And if it's not much of a detriment to you for those comments to stop and is a big relief for others, then I think it's good to encourage people to stop verbally evaluating other people's physical appearance without being solicited to do so. I do think the more vulgar iterations of this is the main problem, though.
I've been attacked by quite a few feminists at my college, and told I have "internalized misogyny" for wanting to stay at home and raise my children when I get married, instead of being a career woman.
And that's something that shouldn't happen (unless you said something like "I think as a woman, I would be better suited to stay at home and raise my children than pursue a career" in which case, yeah I can see where they're coming from). There are some feminists who want downplay the motherhood/caretaker role because they think that it's an institution that's being imposed on women to keep them out of power, but there are also feminists (I believe my gender studies professor was one) who want to celebrate and dignify the activities generally seen as "feminine" and make it more okay for men to want to pursue them as well.
I didn't say anything about being a trophy, all I mean is that life is a lot easier for a woman once she "gets a man", because it's expected of that man to take care of her, and provide for her needs/wants.
So a pet, then. The point is that the expectation that women just need to look pretty to be successful undermines that agency that women have over their own lives, and reduces their worth to one largely genetically determined trait that they either have or they don't. It's patronizing at best.
As for the women who see themselves as less attractive, that's a personal self esteem issue, not something that Feminism is ever going to fix.
I think it's a personal self-esteem issue caused by the over-valuing of physical attractiveness, something that feminism is trying to combat. Whether it will ultimately find some success is arguable, but the cause is noble.
I have yet to see any women in power, or women running for political positions be discouraged, or looked down upon just because she's female.
You didn't notice how much time was spent discussing Hilary's perceived "emotional" weaknesses or family issues or how people like Bill O'Reilly questioned if having a female president would cause our country to look weaker in the eyes of other countries? Now these instances were called out (though mostly by comedians like Jon Stewart and such), but the fact that these things were discussed so openly in media is a problem.
The Patriarchy myth has also been debunked quite a while ago, just saying.
How so? It's a mere fact that many of the systems in place were created by men and it's true that in many important areas (like politics, business, and science), men still hold more power than women.
Sure, but not taking those precautions still doesn't mean that a person is to blame for the choice that someone else made to harm them. When… more it comes to rape, the blame falls only on the person who chose to rape.
I know, I explicitly said it is never the victim's fault if they're raped, but the predator's. Modern Feminism's approach to "solving" this issue is teaching men not to rape, which everyone knows is just illogical, so I went on to list several precautions that both men and women should take to protect themselves, while refraining from placing the blame solely on one gender. Rapists are always going to be around, just as thieves, and murderers are going to be as well. People need to learn to protect themselves from potential threats, not play the blame game.
I think instilling greater value and empathy towards women and moving away from the notion that they are sex objects does help. As we saw in the Steubenville case, t… [view original content]
The telling thing about the Steubenville case isn't the act of the rape itself. It's the brazenness and callousness with which the perpetrators documented and shared their act. It's the dozens of students passing around the photos of someone being violated and thinking it's funny or okay. It's the community reaction of trying to shield "their boys" from prosecution and the anger and blame aimed at the victim for "putting herself in that situation". It's the people downplaying of acts of date rape or rape of someone who's intoxicated as a lesser form of rape. It's the news reports lamenting the loss of two talented high school athletes rather than condemning the monstrous acts they committed. That's what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture.
That doesn't mean it's caused by rape culture. Because there are still people who get killed, simply for being accused of rape. Rape is still viewed as one of the worst crimes a person can commit (second to child molestation/sex abuse), even by other criminals. and really no one can rationally suggest that our society does not come down like the hammer of God on a convicted rapist. It destroys them as a human being. Not just the prison sentences, and the brutal treatment within prison, but sex offender lists and all the rest. Our society deplores and loathes rapists and any rational person can see that. We hate rapists more than we do murderers, and I’d count murder a more heinous crime than rape. Years of counseling can’t take the edge off murder, a supportive and loving family can’t help repair the murdered. Yet rape is considered, by society, the more vile. Ask any prison inmate if he’d rather be labeled a murderer in prison, or a rapist.
They're certainly are the loudest voices, but they aren't the most numerous.
I'm sorry, but they definitely are. If the main speakers and advocates of Modern Feminism are radicals, and if the majority of each event involves the radicals and is often ran by them, and the fact that most kids subscribing to feminism usually take on the mentality of hating all men, and the "sane" feminists stay quiet each time the radicals do something, well, frickin' insane, than that means you're outnumbered, and you have no control over your movement.
What do you propose that they do? What action can moderate members of a movement do against the more extreme ones other than say "Hey, those people's attitudes do not represent my attitudes or the attitudes of the movement as a whole"?
Leave your movement, because it has been infected by these groups. The word Feminism has been forever tainted, and is no longer associated with equality. Leave and join one that actually fits the ideologies you have, don't stay in such a cancerous movement, and isolate yourself from the main parties and hope that you aren't associated with them. You are associated with them, saying there are just a few radicals may have worked years ago, but not anymore. Modern Feminism is toxic.
I see it the same way I see bullying. In most instances, it's something that can be brushed off or dealt with on a case by case basis, but we should still do what we can to try to stop it from being so prevalent. Yes, bullying is probably always going to be a thing, but if we teach kids to not be tolerant of it, maybe we can make it less of a thing.
Telling kids not to bully hasn't eliminated bullying either. That movement has been pretty ineffective too, just like Feminism is with "teach men not to rape." Kids still bully, most don't care if they're hurting other kids' feelings. What we really should be doing is teaching kids to stand up to their bullies, and building up their confidence so they don't feel inadequate when it happens, building a support group for them so they don't feel alone, help them learn to defend themselves physically and emotionally etc.
And feminists do encourage women to do those things. They just also want to tackle the problem at what they see as its roots, rather than just treating the symptoms.
Attacking the problems at the roots is a lost cause though. That would be like telling people their opinion is hurtful so they should keep it to themselves, most people don't care what you think of their opinions or if they're hurting your feelings, especially the kind of people who do gross catcalls. Perpetuating the victim complex some women have doesn't help anyone, and trying to fight a losing battle by telling people it's wrong to do catcalls and that they're hurting people when they do these things is just redundant. They don't care, they never will care, because there are, and always will be bad people in the world. Feminism is not helping this issue in the least, all it has done is made feminists look even more ridiculous than they already do. Focus on what you can fix, and what you can do to help. Like educating, and training women to be able to protect themselves.
Well, like I said, they might be hurting people who've experience worse kinds of harassment or even assault before. You might not think it's a big deal that someone is checking you out, but others who've had different experiences do.
It's one statement out of how many you hear each day? It lasts, what, maybe a few seconds/minutes? Catcalls are annoying and can be uncomfortable, this has been established, but it's not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. Instead of attempting to force creeps to change or stop being vulgar, which will never work in a thousand years, women should be learning to brush these remarks off, and to defend themselves both physically and emotionally when it occurs. Not have feminists telling them they're the victim, and that they should always be afraid.
And that's something that shouldn't happen (unless you said something like "I think as a woman, I would be better suited to stay at home and raise my children than pursue a career" in which case, yeah I can see where they're coming from). There are some feminists who want downplay the motherhood/caretaker role because they think that it's an institution that's being imposed on women to keep them out of power.
If a woman wants to work, she can work, if she wants to stay home and take care of the kids, she can do that too. Women can even work and take care of their children at the same time if they so please. It's just tradition that the man provides for the household and the woman raises the children, but no woman has to do this if she doesn't want to. If a woman doesn't like the way she's being treated by her husband, then she can divorce him and leave.
So a pet, then. The point is that the expectation that women just need to look pretty to be successful undermines that agency that women have over their own lives, and reduces their worth to one largely genetically determined trait that they either have or they don't. It's patronizing at best
..Honestly, when you compare women being loved and cherished by their husbands, who often show their gratitude, affection and love for their wives in different ways such as by providing for them to having a frickin pet, and then to imply that they're forced into being taken care of and have no say in the matter, or that they somehow are devaluing themselves by taking pride in their looks is astronomically rude. You make it sound as though you're doing women a favor by pointing out these "injustices". So from your pov, all women who are in a marriage with traditional gender roles have no choice over anything that happens to them, because you say that they doesn't have a choice etc. Because you obviously know how all women feel about the matter, and women need you to speak for them from what I can understand, right?
Women aren't helpless, we don't need saving, and we are perfectly capable of doing anything we want to do. If that includes getting married and being taken care of by their husband for some women, as opposed to being a full time career woman, then that's their choice and that's none of your business. We live in a civilized Western society, if a woman gets married, there's a very high chance she chose to get married, and wasn't trapped or forced into it as you continue to imply. You are not empowering or helping women by saying that women are somehow devaluing themselves because they take pride in their appearance, and that apparently every woman who is doted on by her husband is the equivalent to a pet. You seriously sound like you look down on women when you say thoughtless things like that. And funnily enough, you're coming across as patronizing and sexist. You make it seem like women are these weak, little things who need constant reassuring and special treatment to make it through life. I really shouldn't need saying, but we aren't any of those things and we don't need the warped version of "help" that modern feminism is selling.
I think it's a personal self-esteem issue caused by the over-valuing of physical attractiveness, something that feminism is trying to combat. Whether it will ultimately find some success is arguable, but the cause is noble.
Not really. We value our physical appearances because we're human, we're fundamentally vain and selfish creatures. It's not the most important thing there is, but people will always care about how they look, or how they are perceived by others. And that's not a condemning thing. If a woman is insecure about her looks, the only one who can fix it is her. Relying on Feminism to make you feel good about yourself, and forcing people to find you attractive even if you don't fit their personal preferences is unrealistic, and just sad.
You didn't notice how much time was spent discussing Hilary's perceived "emotional" weaknesses or family issues or how people like Bill O'Reilly questioned if having a female president would cause our country to look weaker in the eyes of other countries? Now these instances were called out (though mostly by comedians like Jon Stewart and such), but the fact that these things were discussed so openly in media is a problem.
That doesn't have anything to do with her being a woman, her family is discussed because her husband was the former president, and it's also not uncommon for politicians' families to be talked about in the media. Her "emotional" weaknesses usually revolve around her health, and the fact that she has a brain tumor, people are speculating whether it's wise for her to run when her health is deteriorating. And of course people are going to discuss both the pros and cons of having a potential female president, we've never had one before. That doesn't mean we won't ever have one. And in the end, people saying sexist things about her are called out and reprimanded for their statements every time.
How so? It's a mere fact that many of the systems in place were created by men and it's true that in many important areas (like politics, business, and science), men still hold more power than women.
I'll say it again, just because there are more men in certain positions doesn't mean that there are less women in power, or that men hold authority over women. I don't want this post to be ridiculously long (well, anymore ridiculously long), but this explains why the Patriarchy doesn't exist in America for the most part.
Patriarchy (n.): a family, group, or government controlled by a man or a group of men
And according to Princeton University:
Patriarchy is a multidimensional condition of power and status. Whyte’s 1978 comprehensive study examined 52 indicators of patriarchy, which corresponded to 10 relatively independent dimensions. The ten dimensions are:
-lack of property control by women
-lack of power of women in kinship contexts
-low value placed on the lives of women
-low value placed on the labor of women
-lack of domestic authority of women
-absence of ritualized female solidarity
-absence of control over women’s marital and sexual lives
-absence of ritualized fear of women
-lack of male-female joint participation in warfare, work, and community decision making
-lack of women’s indirect influence on decision making
There are undeniably societies in the world today that are patriarchies. A place like Saudi Arabia comes to mind as well as institutions like the Catholic Church in which women are not entirely excluded (i.e., nuns) but are kept from positions of real power (i.e., the priesthood and the papacy).
In the USA:
-women can (easily) control property: they can rent apartments, buy a house or land, own a business, and inherit and/or will their property to others.
-there are plenty of “housewives”/stay-at-home mothers, but women are typically expected to find a job and work for a living in the same way that men are, and there is no wage gap between male and female workers.
-though it’s hard to say given that domestic violence stories focus almost solely on male-on-female violence, I might argue that women often have more domestic authority than men; for example, they have more control of their family’s disposable income and are far more likely to get custody of their children in case of a divorce.
-"absence of ritualized female solidarity" - well, I think we know that’s not applicable to the US.
-aside from states that have made abortion difficult to obtain, women control their own bodies and sexuality, and aside from where it is an issue of LGBT equality, women have the power to marry (and divorce) whom they choose, when they choose.
-Many industries are relatively evenly balanced between men and women. As for “community decision making,” women are more likely to vote than men, so while it would be nice to have more women running for office, women nevertheless have more of a say in who gets elected.
Ultimately, women have the choice to wear the kinds of clothes they like; vote; pursue almost any career; drive a car; live where and with whom they want to; have children (or not); get married (or not); cut their hair; have sex with whom they choose, etc. While many people may criticize them for making what they deem “incorrect” or “inappropriate” choices, no patriarch or patriarchal authority is going to punish women for making them.
(Can we just agree to disagree now? We're clogging up the thread at this point with our posts, and clearly neither of us is going to back down or concede.)
Generally women aren't regarded as sex objects, and the Steubenville incident is just one case, and the rapists were found guilty in that tr… moreial. Just because rape happens, doesn't mean there is "rape culture", because rape would have to be acceptable if there were. In no western society is rape viewed as acceptable in any way.
The telling thing about the Steubenville case isn't the act of the rape itself. It's the brazenness and callousness with which the perpetrators documented and shared their act. It's the dozens of students passing around the photos of someone being violated and thinking it's funny or okay. It's the community reaction of trying to shield "their boys" from prosecution and the anger and blame aimed at the victim for "putting herself in that situation". It's the people downplaying of acts of date rape or rape of someone who's intoxicated as a lesser form of rape. It's the news reports lamenting the loss of two talent… [view original content]
Anyway, It's come far and some of those are true but the wag gap thing is false. Women still have things to get as rights say but we don't need another movement, it's progressing well on it's own. The new age Feminism is wanting female superiority not gender equality. I am all for Feminism but not this new age Feminzai crap.
@GoldenPaladin:
There is no damn problem in America! This is the first world and women have their rights, they are allowed equal opportun… moreity
In the United States, women do have the rights to do most things that men do, but there still are discrepancies. For instance, women still make less than men for the same work. Also note that only this year were women finally allowed to compete in the ski jump at the olympics, and women will finally be able to serve on the front lines in the US military next year. However, women still can't serve in the US Army Special Operations.
The women's rights movement definitely has come a long way, but there's still a long way to go.
Thank you Tinni, a great voice of reason!
I think Feminism is needed in India, China, and the Middle East but in America?
No, in America it is just Feminazis.
The telling thing about the Steubenville case isn't the act of the rape itself. It's the brazenness and callousness with which the perpetrat… moreors documented and shared their act. It's the dozens of students passing around the photos of someone being violated and thinking it's funny or okay. It's the community reaction of trying to shield "their boys" from prosecution and the anger and blame aimed at the victim for "putting herself in that situation". It's the people downplaying of acts of date rape or rape of someone who's intoxicated as a lesser form of rape. It's the news reports lamenting the loss of two talented high school athletes rather than condemning the monstrous acts they committed. That's what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture.
That doesn't mean it's caused by rape culture. Because there are still people who get killed, simply for being accused of rape. Rape is still viewed as one of the worst crimes a person … [view original content]
(Can we just agree to disagree now? We're clogging up the thread at this point with our posts, and clearly neither of us is going to back down, or concede.)
We're clogging up a thread asking for views on feminism with a discussion about feminism. I think we're in the clear. Although it may help to continue this in another comment since this strand is getting kind of unwieldy. So I'm going to do so.
Rape is still viewed as one of the worst crimes a person can commit
Rape is seen as a very bad thing, but there are apparently still ways that people trivialize it as is evident in examples like the one I gave. If our society really does come down like the hammer of god on rapists, you wouldn't see the callous and harmful attitudes that we saw Steubenville case or the horrible mishandling of rape cases by colleges or the countless reports of women who were asked accusatory questions about their level of intoxication or how they were dressed when they reported their assault. The evidence that rape isn't always given the weight it deserves is right in front of us. If you don't want to call it "rape culture," fine. I'm not super attached to the terminology. What I am attached to is the idea that the attitudes we see are harmful and that we should find ways to combat them rather than just shrugging our shoulders because they're never going to completely go away or pretending they aren't there.
If the main speakers and advocates of Feminism are radicals
By "radicals" do you mean that they subscribe to some concepts in the radical feminist school of thought like the existence and harmfulness of the patriarchy or that they have extremist views that all men are rapists and such? Because those are two aren't the same thing. If feminism were truly mostly populated with the latter then, of course, I wouldn't want any part of it. But if it's just people who oppose patriarchy as a structure, yeah that's "radical feminism" but it's not extreme or misandrist.
the "sane" feminists stay quiet each time the radicals do something, well frickin insane
Cite me an example of a crazy thing that feminist extremists do and I'll cite you three feminist moderates condemning it. (Unless it's a really small and obscure thing, in which case I wouldn't expect a lot of other feminists to have heard of it to respond.)
Telling kids not to bully hasn't eliminated bullying either. That movement has been pretty ineffective too, just like Feminism is with "teach men not to rape."
The campaigns obviously aren't going to work on serial rapists or those who attack random passerbys. That's not who the campaigns are targeting. The campaigns are primarily targeting people who might think it's okay to persist in pressuring a woman to have sex when she's already said no or who think it's okay to sexually engage with people who are too intoxicated to give consent. To compare it to bullying, it's like teaching kids to be aware of their words because they can have very harmful effects on others. It won't reach the kids who are actively trying to hurt their peers, but it might reach those who don't think it's that big of a deal to mock someone's appearance to make their peers laugh. Same with campaigns against catcalling. It won't reach the people who are actively trying to make women uncomfortable, but it might make those who think that saying things like "Damn girl! Work that ass!" is a harmless compliment think twice.
Instead of attempting to force creeps to change or stop being vulgar, which will never work in a thousand years, women should be learning to brush these remarks off, and to defend themselves both physically and emotionally when it occurs. Not telling them they're the victim, and that they should be afraid.
When a woman gets harassed, she's a victim of harassment. No one has to tell her that she's a victim and that she should feel afraid or violated or annoyed, but women do feel that way when they get catcalled. Pretty much all feminists would love seeing a woman to stand up for herself when being harassed in the street, but given the sometimes very aggressive reactions of people whose advances are rebuffed, that's not always a very viable option. So yeah, women do have to learn to put up with those remarks and try as best they can to brush them off because they don't really have another choice. But if we're going to try to be a more civilized and advanced society, we should also try to send a very clear message that that kind of behavior is not going to be tolerated, not just by the women being harassed, but also the people witnessing the harassment.
because you say that that they don't have a choice etc
Uh...pointing out that there are unfair and patronizing societal expectations for women isn't saying that they don't have a choice. They do. It's just harder for them to make that choice than it should be. When a woman is pressured by her family or peers to get a husband while she's still of good child-bearing age rather than focus on her career, she can certainly say no, but that's still a pressure that shouldn't exist for her. I'm not making these things up, these are things that I've heard women have actually complained about, both through online forums and in person in real life. You might not have felt those pressures yourself since your preferences happen to align with them, but they are there and they are obstructive to those who don't share your aspirations.
If a woman is insecure about her looks, the only one who can fix it is her.
You don't think that the representation of female figures in media might affect whether or not young women end up developing insecurities about their bodies? You don't think that advocating for fewer of those representations or different representations or stronger societal emphasis on traits other than physical appearance might decrease the number of women who need to "fix" their insecurities?
Her "emotional" weaknesses usually revolve around her health, and the fact that she has a brain tumor
No, it was for her shedding a few tears while making an emotional speech or speaking aggressively about issues that are important to her. As if no male politician ever did any of that.
And in the end, people saying sexist things about her are called out and reprimanded for their statements every time.
Mostly by people who call themselves feminists.
Just because there are more men in certain positions doesn't mean that there are less women in power
How does 20% of women in the both US Congressional Houses compared to 80% of men and 5% of women in Fortune 500 companies compared to 95% of men not mean that there are less women in power?
Patriarchy is a multidimensional condition of power and status. Whyte’s 1978 comprehensive study examined 52 indicators of patriarchy, which corresponded to 10 relatively independent dimensions.
I'm curious why you cited this and not the passage from the Princeton page that seems much more relevant to this discussion: "Within feminist theory, patriarchy refers to the structure of modern cultural and political systems, which are ruled by men." Most of our modern cultural and political systems are ruled by men, as I've pointed out above. If you want to use that GGFSJ blog post (which you should really have cited if you aren't actually the author of the post) to argue that patriarchy as defined by Whyte isn't a problem in America, sure. Fine. But those aren't the things being referred to in feminist theory. What's being referred to in feminist theory is a social system in which men hold the majority of the power. And that is, in fact, the case, as I have shown.
Do you have any link to back up your claim that the wage gap is false? Every study I've seen shows that the wage gap is still present. The article I linked above states there's been numerous studies that show that women still make less than men in the same field, even among the millenial generation, and even in fields that are traditionally dominated by women. And, according to the first study in that article, the gap is around $20,000 a year, which is significant.
There were a number of recent newspaper articles, petitions, and protests that led to the changes in the Olympics and the US military that I linked above. There has been small movements since the at least 90s to make these changes, but it wasn't until recently that the movements have become larger, and with large petition websites like change.org actually attracting media attention for serious issues (not just for women's rights, but for the rights of many other groups as well), those in charge are finally taking notice and making changes. Things don't change on their own, sadly. It would be great if they did, but people still need to push for change in order for it to happen.
Hey Jennifer, what's up!
Anyway, It's come far and some of those are true but the wag gap thing is false. Women still have things to get … moreas rights say but we don't need another movement, it's progressing well on it's own. The new age Feminism is wanting female superiority not gender equality. I am all for Feminism but not this new age Feminzai crap.
Well, There are but i'm too lazy to go searching for them. :P
I just don't agree that we need these huge movements to push things that are coming. It's like us petitioning Telltale for games faster and we get opposition and a mess. The same thing is happening with these movements.
First of all these movements have terrible leadership and poor marketing skills (Have you seen that F Bombs for Feminism video?). I agree Feminism is needed in some places however we had a movement here and the main rights have been given to women. After the main movement very small movements have gotten a few other things to push it along while the bar is moving at a pretty steady increase. Feminism has gotten a bad name in America because of Feminists like Anita Sarkessain and Valerie Solanas. If REAL Feminsim is toget anywhere in America without the steady increase then Femisnists need to stop supporting those liars, thieves, and radicals.
Do you have any link to back up your claim that the wage gap is false? Every study I've seen shows that the wage gap is still present. The… more article I linked above states there's been numerous studies that show that women still make less than men in the same field, even among the millenial generation, and even in fields that are traditionally dominated by women. And, according to the first study in that article, the gap is around $20,000 a year, which is significant.
There were a number of recent newspaper articles, petitions, and protests that led to the changes in the Olympics and the US military that I linked above. There has been small movements since the at least 90s to make these changes, but it wasn't until recently that the movements have become larger, and with large petition websites like change.org actually attracting media attention for serious issues (not just for women's rights, but for the rights of many other groups as w… [view original content]
Alright, but I still would prefer if we just agreed to disagree. I posted my opinion about Feminism, I (surprisingly) wasn't even looking to have a debate in the first place. I'm only replying to defend my viewpoint. I think it would be best if we just leave it at that and go our separate ways, because I don't have as much leisurely time to spend online debating.
The Steubenville rapists are in prison, how was that case handled without seriousness? They didn't brutally rape the girl, they put their genitals in her mouth, and put their fingers in her vagina while she was unconscious, and they still went to prison ( don't misunderstand, I'm happy with the verdict, but those guys definitely got the most severe sentence) If it hadn't been handled the way it was, they would have gotten something like community service, or some lesser offense in jail. There is a monumental difference between interrogation and victim blaming. Questions such as what you were wearing, and how much alcohol did you consume are investigatory questions. It’s because investigators and detectives are obligated to attempt to find out both sides of the story and if they add up. “But who would lie about rape?” one might ask. Unfortunately, several people. And so as a precaution, and to gather more accurate details, the “victim” and “accused” are both asked similar questions in hopes of getting two completely matching stories that line up with the evidence found. Most times you’ll be repeating this story again and again, and someone will be keeping track of what you say. A consistent story is often regarded as trustworthy, especially if it matches up with the evidence. But most people can not keep a straight story if they’re asked multiple invasive detailed questions and they’re lying. People lie to the police all the time. About murder, drugs, rape etc. About everything really. (Take note that not once do I mention gender, because for the last time, both men and women are victims of rape, and both men and women are capable of rape.) Also, here are some facts regarding the "2% false rape claim figure" that is being pushed by feminists
Both are major components to Modern Feminism, because the perpetuation of the Patriarchy myth turns women against men, all Modern Feminism truly ends up doing is pitting the two genders against one another. If you're a feminist, you're condoning the acts that the majority of your movement are apart of by continuing to stand by this movement when it's beyond saving.
Feminists being insane in first world countries and a few other countries as well. There's a lot more, but several of the original videos that show them being even more nuts have been taken down, and the page can't be found for other articles I had, and I don't have a lot of time to find more, so this is what I have for now.
(Also, I am aware that the man behind A Voice For Men is less than admirable, but the statistics and events cited are accurate and have happened, hence why I've used some of that website's articles as a source.)
It already isn't tolerated in the least, that's why the respectful men, hell, the majority of men as well as women out there look down on the cat-callers, that's why you see people so disgusted with that video that's gone viral of the woman getting catcalls. (which tbh, those catcalls weren't even that bad of catcalls, they were mostly people saying hello, or have a good day. and that's seriously the worst they got in 10 hours of footage? That's just sad.) It isn't getting any positive feedback, it would if it was being tolerated or accepted. Nobody is disputing that they aren't being harassed, what I am disputing is you saying that only one gender harasses the other, and that that harassment of females is more important than males, that all men cat call and that women need to be coddled because all of them are apparently too terrified to speak up for themselves. As I've said countless times before, instead of demonizing all men for the behavior of assholes, actually do something that can make a difference, such as arming women with the skills and self defense devices so they don't have to feel so unsafe. People stand up for women being harassed all the time, what, do you think people who hear women being legitimately harassed on the street commend those doing the harassing and cheer them on? You're really reaching there. We already are a civilized society, and once again, Modern Feminism is focusing on areas of people that are already loathed by majority of Society. Telling the scumbags that "you're making girls uncomfortable" won't change a thing about them. They're still going to be scumbags, and lumping the good men in with them is unfair, which is what feminist tactics are doing, whether they know it or not. These type of low-lives will always exist, and they shouldn't even be acknowledged by anyone, especially if they're catcalling. Modern Feminism isn't empowering women by complaining about catcalling, they're just aggravating and pissing people off over the inevitable reality that it's going to happen. It's like pissing people off about taxes, and how we hate being taxed, and some people are more taxed than others etc. Everybody wishes the taxes would go down, or just plain go away, but screaming, attacking, and blaming one group of people isn't going to lower, or get rid of taxes.
How is it a societal expectation if plenty of women don't follow this expectation every day and are praised for it, often more so than stay at home moms? So now anyone who suggests to their loved one that she may want to settle down and have kids is being patronizing, and shouldn't say anything because they may be pressuring and negatively affecting a woman's ego without knowing it? How fragile do you think women are? Men are pressured by their families to settle down and find a wife and have children too. And both men and women alike have declined these pieces of advice if it isn't what they want, nobody is forcing them to do anything.
No, I feel these pressures all the time, in fact my Uncle asks me every time he visits why I'm not married and haven't had babies yet, and that I should be putting that as first priority, and I always say I'm too focused on school/work and don't have time for that right now in my life. And then I move on, and everything is fine. I don't succumb to tears, or take offense just because someone told me I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, or I should be doing something else with my life, if anyone is that weak minded to let simple comments like that get to them they really should be focusing on fixing themselves. As with almost everything else Modern Feminism flips out about, this is not that big of a deal. There's pressure within Society, your family/friends are going to pressure you even if it's unintentionally, you're going to be uncomfortable/annoyed with it, that's a given. But tough luck, that's life, and whining about it isn't going to make everything magically better, especially when what you're complaining about is so damn trivial.
Complaining about the comments made by others (ex; why are you working on your degree, and not trying to find a husband? Why don't you want kids?), and how it makes you feel bad/annoyed/less confident about your choices is your problem if you don't possess the resolve to be in charge of your own decisions in your life. Again, Modern Feminism is encouraging women to think that they should be up in arms, and take offense every time a loved one asks them why they don't have kids yet, or aren't married. To people who get this upset, and that think it's a huge issue, you're allowing people's words to have power over you, just get over it and move on. It's extremely unrealistic, not everyone is going to be 100% behind every decision you make, whether you're a man or a woman.
The same can be said for representation of male figures affecting young men negatively who can't live up to that image, and develop insecurities about their bodies. However, blaming the media for your poor self esteem isn't going to raise your self esteem, even if it was caused by unrealistic expectations of men and women's bodies. Only you can raise your self esteem, wallowing in self pity/getting mad at the media, and relying on angry feminists won't make you feel better about yourself.
And when male politicians tear up during a speech, there are also people who say they look weak, or made America look weak by doing so, ever heard of John Boehner? So this really isn't exclusive to Hilary Clinton. Women aren't in need of special treatment as it seems you've been implying. If a politician makes a speech, regardless of whether they're a woman or a man, there are going to people who nitpick the hell out of it and try to find something to criticize to make them look bad. That is nothing new.
You say it's people who call themselves feminists. Just as many people who aren't feminists call out people for sexism and racism. And the only reason why feminists are perceived to call people out for racism and sexism more is because it's the feminists who are quick to jump to conclusions and use buzzwords like "racist" and "sexist" to slander and silence those who call out their movement, who say things that piss feminists off because they disagree. And just because feminists are the ones who scream "racist/sexist" every time they hear something they don't like, and sometimes that person actually is racist or sexist does not validate the necessity of Modern Feminism, nor does it excuse the massive amount of times where feminists have falsely accused people of being racist or sexist.
It means that just because a woman isn't in that position, doesn't mean she has absolutely no say in what happens to issues concerning her and her country, she still has just as many rights as she would even if there were more women in certain positions. Not every single man in those positions are misogynistic sexists whose goal is to make things worse for women. That's just unrealistic and delusional. And again, just because a company has more men than women, doesn't mean that company is actively refusing women for positions, it's most likely that more men apply for those positions than women, because men and women are evidently attracted to different fields of work.
And you keep talking about how men are favored more than women, that men have it so easy, and never face discrimination when that couldn't be further from the truth. As I said before, both men and women have their advantages and disadvantages. (links below have recently been edited in to support this statement 7/21/2015)
Did you know that it's only women who are able to decide whether or not they want to keep their child in the case of abortion, and that the father's input doesn't matter at all because "no uterus no opinion"? If a woman wants an abortion, the man has no say, if the woman wants to keep the baby, the man still has no say, and more often than not has to pay child support regardless of whether or not he wanted the child to begin with. The mother has full control over whether that baby lives or dies, the father's word means nothing, how is that fair? And in some cases, women get away with tricking the man into believing it's his child even when it's not, and many feminists want to outlaw a man's right to find out for sure if it's his child. Let's say a man's wife cheated on him and got knocked up, he divorces her, but here's the doozy, guess who has to pay the child support if the child was conceived while they were still married? In several cases, the husband does.. Even though it's not his child. And despite more than 80% of child custody cases being rewarded to women, there is no jurisdiction in the United States that upholds a presumption of equality between parents. And many male victims of statutory rape are still forced to pay child support. Also, regardless of the draft no longer being implemented in the US, it's certainly not women who are being forced to register for selective service.
Feminist theory defines Patriarchy as "an unjust social system that is oppressive to women", the points made in my previous post debunking it still stand, for we would not have these things if we were indeed oppressed and lived in an actual Patriarchy.The definition in my previous post also contains the elements that make up a Patriarchy, and the points below refute them. It's not about there being more men than women in power, it's about how much authority, control and say women still have in their lives and, just as every citizen of America has, even when they aren't in these political positions of power. Also, fun fact, women make up the majority of those who vote, so ironically, it is women choosing to elect men over women to these positions. Anyway, going by the elements that constitute a Patriarchy, America is not a Patriarchy, a country like Saudi Arabia, where a woman can be killed for expressing her opinions, is a Patriarchy. If you're still in denial about this, then maybe we should end this discussion.
You are not helping the women who actually need Feminism in other countries by complaining about such minuscule annoyances (like cat calling) that everyone has to deal with at one point in first world countries. Honestly, we're going in circles and I have repeated myself numerous times, so let's just break that cycle and end this here. I've said what I had to say, and so will you after you respond to this. Not to mention, this post is so long that I had to edit parts out to make sure it all fit and nothing disappeared when I posted it.
[Continuing discussion with @Tinni]
(Can we just agree to disagree now? We're clogging up the thread at this point with our posts, and… more clearly neither of us is going to back down, or concede.)
We're clogging up a thread asking for views on feminism with a discussion about feminism. I think we're in the clear. Although it may help to continue this in another comment since this strand is getting kind of unwieldy. So I'm going to do so.
Rape is still viewed as one of the worst crimes a person can commit
Rape is seen as a very bad thing, but there are apparently still ways that people trivialize it as is evident in examples like the one I gave. If our society really does come down like the hammer of god on rapists, you wouldn't see the callous and harmful attitudes that we saw Steubenville case or the horrible mishandling of rape cases by colleges or the countless reports of women who were asked accusatory questions ab… [view original content]
Feminism that got us voting rights and wanted to see the advancement of women in political, social, and military roles = Great
Modern day femnazi's parading as 'feminists' = Enough to make me not call myself a feminist for fear of being thrown in the general idea of a feminist.
As in an abortion? Fucking hell. I get so mad when I hear about oppressive stuff like this happening in China. They tried to ban relationships between teenagers last year. Makes me glad that I really do live in a free country.
Equality is good. I hate how people bash feminism because the supporters are... "overzealous", to put it lightly. Feminism is an idea, not a clan of man-hating women. xD
What pisses me off a lot is when people get butthurt about women not being represented properly in video games. Take what happened with AC: Unity for example. There was pretty much a public outcry that you couldn't play as a female character. So what? It's a VIDEO GAME, for entertainment. When exactly did they become more than that? I play games because I enjoy them, not because I want to know what's right and wrong. Developers will do what will keep their careers alive, not what you want, and if not having female protagonists is what they have to do, then nobody should force them to do it. Think about others and how shoving feminism in people's faces will affect them before you start complaining.
Sorry about the rant, but I get really angry over this sort of thing.
Asking for inclusionism in video games is not a bad thing when it comes to games with multiple player characters. Sometimes it leads to a better game. For example, people asked Double Fine to add same sex couples to Massive Chalice, and they did. And it made the game better for it, as it adds a challenging element to the game to have a fort stronghold that can't reproduce to create heirs. Plus, since it's completely optional, there's no reason that anyone has to play the game that way if they don't want, so everybody wins.
But, yeah. The way that some people went about it for Assassin's Creed Unity was unacceptable. Death threats. Really? People really need to realize that there are real people behind the screen, and people can get seriously damaged (emotionally and sometimes physically if some more off-kilter person actually makes good on the threats) by such vile comments. The internet can be full of really awful people, and a lot of them aren't even anonymous, posting hate with their Facebook accounts publicly linked. It's madness, really.
What pisses me off a lot is when people get butthurt about women not being represented properly in video games. Take what happened with AC: … moreUnity for example. There was pretty much a public outcry that you couldn't play as a female character. So what? It's a VIDEO GAME, for entertainment. When exactly did they become more than that? I play games because I enjoy them, not because I want to know what's right and wrong. Developers will do what will keep their careers alive, not what you want, and if not having female protagonists is what they have to do, then nobody should force them to do it. Think about others and how shoving feminism in people's faces will affect them before you start complaining.
Sorry about the rant, but I get really angry over this sort of thing.
I agree. I'm not sure if everyone knew what I meant, but what I was saying is that game developers aren't going to put their careers at risk to add strong female characters in games. For example, let's say you're creating a game that isn't really ideal for having well-developed female characters, and when the feminazis see this they pressure you to put female characters in your game. Buckling under the pathetic outrage, you do it, then your game becomes a flop and you lose a ton of money over what was meant to be your creation, but you were forced to butcher it yourself because a few people blew it out of proportion. That's just a cruel thing to do. Some supposed "feminists" these days want everybody to always show support for their cause even when it negatively affects them, and I think that people like that give feminism a bad name and creates more hate against feminism.
I remember a segment of one of Anita Sarkessian's videos that AngryJoe used in his "Top Ten Gaming Controversies of 2013" video. In it, she says she would love to play video games but she doesn't want to go around shooting people. Well... bad effing luck! Some others do want to do that. What makes your preference more important than them?
I could rant for decades, but I think I've made my view on this pretty clear.
Asking for inclusionism in video games is not a bad thing when it comes to games with multiple player characters. Sometimes it leads to a b… moreetter game. For example, people asked Double Fine to add same sex couples to Massive Chalice, and they did. And it made the game better for it, as it adds a challenging element to the game to have a fort stronghold that can't reproduce to create heirs. Plus, since it's completely optional, there's no reason that anyone has to play the game that way if they don't want, so everybody wins.
But, yeah. The way that some people went about it for Assassin's Creed Unity was unacceptable. Death threats. Really? People really need to realize that there are real people behind the screen, and people can get seriously damaged (emotionally and sometimes physically if some more off-kilter person actually makes good on the threats) by such vile comments. The internet can be full of really awful people, and a l… [view original content]
Comments
Nope, please be respectful yourself.
Did you watch it? It is a feminist, please watch something before you start your own rant.
Did I state that? No. Women aren't oppressed, stop living in the past.
Read.
Yes.
What opportunities don't women have? Just because there aren't equal numbers of women in power doesn't mean there have to be in order to fulfill some quota or else it's sexist and oppressive. It would be sexist if there weren't any woman in political power, or they weren't allowed to run or be in power in the first place.
Personally, I believe gender roles are more beneficial than detrimental. There are some things that could be fixed( like the stigma that boys can't show emotions/cry, or girls have to look a specific way in order to be considered universally attractive) But for the most part they have worked fine, so I don't think it's necessary to eliminate them completely. They have worked for so long for a reason.
It's not modern Feminism you're looking for then. It's merely a guise that they want equality, it's pretty obvious that the majority of the movement want gender superiority. It may have been about equality to begin with, but something toxic got in and now the whole ideology is infected. What you're looking for is Egalitarianism.
All I'm saying is I don't think these problems are as dire as you're making them out to be. Sexual harassment is definitely not as bad as it used to be, women have a lot opportunities in the political and work force, and I'd argue that we're favored more than men in several aspects of life. I appreciate what I have here in America, and I believe myself to be equal to men with the opportunities I already have, and to hear that there are women who think we need "more, more, more", when we already have so much is just frustrating and disheartening. I don't like that Feminism makes women victimize themselves and demonize men. It's not moving Society forward in the least, all it's doing is driving a wedge between the two genders.
Feminism. I don't know, i'm not really the correct person to ask. I guess it depends on what issues they're talking about. I don't believe anyone should be abused, and i wish Feminists would be a little bit more understanding to other people; not every man is a evil bastard who wants to see women in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant, we all have sisters, mothers, daughters that we love/respect.
Not me personally, but i'm sure all you do.
I don't think women who act like sluts are to blame for violence inflicted upon them at all. I never said anything even remotely close to that. It's not ok to abuse anyone, regardless of gender. The only person to blame is the perpetrator, but that doesn't mean the potential victim shouldn't take precautions to protect themselves. When I say slut shaming, I meant that the lifestyle of sleeping around with multiple sex partners shouldn't be encouraged, nor should dressing like you're working the corner be encouraged. I also never said the amount of skin showing means they're asking to be raped. Now the amount of alcohol you consume, and the level of caution you choose to practice in a public and unfamiliar place doesn't mean you're asking to be raped, but it sure as hell makes you more at risk. There are sick people out there, and when you act recklessly and get drunk in a bar, or some other sketchy place, you're in danger of being taken advantage of. This goes for both genders. And unfortunately, what you're wearing does contribute to the risk of being raped, for example a woman wearing a dress/skirt is more likely to be preyed upon than a woman wearing pants, because it's easier to rape a girl that is wearing less material.
Catcalling is not that bad. And it doesn't happen as often as people say it does. I think the level of sexual objectification is pretty equal. Men have an unrealistic image to live up to, and as do women. For men it's that they're expected to be in really good shape, thin, have muscles/abs, nice skin, tall etc. Girls are expected to be thin, always have their makeup and hair looking nice, curves etc. Girls will say a guy who they don't find attractive is being creepy when they hit on her, but if it's a hot guy, then it's welcome and ok. It goes both ways, and neither are worse that the other in my opinion.
So? As I said to another user, just because there aren't perfectly equal numbers of men and women in a line of work doesn't mean it's sexist or oppressive. Just happens that a line of work attracts one gender more than the other. There are always going to be stereotypes, it's only hindering when you make it hindering to yourself. Then break the stereotype, plenty of women have and are able to. And I don't really want to get into a political debate, but Hilary Clinton being criticized the way she is doesn't have anything to do with her being a woman. Men and women are different. There are disadvantages and advantages to both genders, an outdated toxic movement like Modern Feminism isn't going to change anything for the better.
When you get older, maybe its just me, none of that shit matters,
When you get older, knowledge and experience is what matters.
You mean money right? This world is so fucking greedy its sickening.
Knowledge, experience, and money...Also importance.
You're right, but speaking strictly about sexual objectification of both genders, it's physical traits that are paid attention to most.
Again, it's fine to have those personal feelings regarding promiscuity, but it becomes a problem when people bring those personal feelings into judgment of victims of rape or harassment. If you feel that a woman who dresses provocatively or is very promiscuous has done something immoral, it might make you less sympathetic and more accusatory towards her when she becomes a victim. This leads to people getting the idea that rape is somehow worse when it happens to woman who has had two sexual partners and dresses conservatively than when it happens to a woman who has had twenty sexual partners and dresses provocatively. And it's not. (To be clear, I'm not necessarily accusing you of holding any of these views, I'm just stating my stance on them.)
I think it's not that bad for you. It doesn't happen that often to you. It could be that you don't live in a densely populated urban area where it's more of a problem, but yes, it does happen fairly often.
To be sure, males face scrutiny for their physical appearance as well, but I think there is less emphasis for males than for females. In addition to their physical appearance, men are also measured to a large degree by their professional success, earning potential, confidence, and social skills. When a man has troubles with women, those are some of the other things that he's told he can work on to improve his chances. A woman who has troubles with men, on the other hand, seems to be restricted to making herself more attractive or making herself more available. Essentially, men are told that they can improve their chances at romancing women by becoming doctors; women are told that they can improve their chances at romancing men by becoming prettier.
It doesn't necessarily mean it's due to sexism or some degree of oppression, but it might be, so it's important for us to do what we can to make sure it's not. Especially when it comes to matters such as political representation in the government. Stereotypes don't just hinder people who feel hindered by them. If voters see a woman as automatically weaker of a leader than a man simply because she's a woman, there's not a whole lot she can do about that. At least alone. But more women getting into positions of political power, encouraging other women to do the same, and spreading the message that women can be just as effective as men in leading, will eventually, hopefully dispel that stereotype. That's what feminism is (at least the form of it that I subscribe to).
Overall, I think it's a mistake to regard feminism as a single monolithic entity with one hardline stance against all things men and male. There's lots of different types of feminism, with lots of different goals and approaches, and aside from a small minority of extremists, they all have the common aim of achieving gender equality. If you haven't already, I would recommend reading up a bit on the different types of feminism out there and what their stances are. I think you'll fine that it's far more of a rich tapestry than you might think.
I understand your point, any instance of rape is horrible, no matter who the victim is, or what gender they are. No one deserves it, but the fact that there are several precautions that can be taken to lower a person's risk of rape still stands. Rape is wrong, but it still happens, and yelling at people about how wrong it is isn't going to change that it unfortunately will always happen. What I'm asserting is that Feminism isn't helping this cause by blaming all men, and saying all men are rapists. Women rape too, and overall, men are raped just as much, if not more than women. By excluding men, and saying they're the only predators and that this is an issue pertaining only to women is extremely insensitive and completely untrue. Feminism isn't contributing positively to fixing the problem, they don't contribute positively to any problem they try to "fix" really.
I'm not excusing catcalling, but I don't think it's that difficult to ignore, and then go on with your day. I get annoyed when I'm walking to work and some guy comes up to me and starts hitting on me, but it's over in a few minutes and then I go on with my life. I don't think it's something that you can change just by saying it pisses girls off when they're whistled at. This is nothing new, everyone knows that girls don't like it, and most men don't appreciate the catcalls girls get either. But there are still scumbags who're going to do it, and the best thing to do is ignore them. If they make you feel unsafe, then have a stun gun/pepper spray with you, or even a gun. Have somebody walk you to and from your car, I do it all the time when I go to the market at night. It's not this huge epidemic that requires as much media attention as it's getting.
Actually, that puts more pressure on the man. They have to be able to support the girl, which means making a lot money, as well as courting/wooing the girl, and on top of that be attractive in both personality and looks. Having a brother who's on his way to becoming a doctor, I understand just how hard he has to work to get to his goal. Men are required to be the bread winner, where the woman doesn't have to contribute as much, and can stay home if she wants to. So with those attributes you've brought into play, it's actually sounds a lot more difficult for the man than it does for the woman, who just "has to be pretty", which further proves my point that as a woman I am favored more than men in several aspects of life.
There's always going to be a chance that sexism is a possible reason, but feminists' tactic of screaming at people and putting down men isn't going to help their cause or eliminate the stereotype. The majority of America is not as sexist and racist as you're implying, if anything, people who think like that are in the minority. And honestly, all you're doing is speculating that the reason why there aren't as many women in political power is because of sexism, when there is no proof of that being the main reason. It could very well be, and most likely be, that quite a lot of women aren't as interested in a career in politics as men are.
It's not a minority and you know it, you can go on and say that's a different kind of Feminism, but it doesn't change the way in which most feminists choose to act and conduct themselves, which makes the whole movement look really bad. I've researched modern Feminism, and met enough feminists to know that their overall goal is to be catered to and given extra privileges for simply being a woman, while putting down and demonizing men. As a woman, I'm disgusted by it. It's insulting for women to think that they can't accomplish anything on their own without putting down and taking away rights from men. Feminism isn't about gender equality, back in the day it was, but not anymore. Modern Feminism is for gender superiority, Egalitarianism is for equality, you're subscribing to the wrong movement. There's a reason why people like Robin Morgan, or Laci Green immediately come to mind when someone mentions Feminism nowadays, those are the kind of people that run and control your movement, they are the face of modern Feminism. If gender equality truly is your main concern, you would know that modern Feminism is not the movement that's going to help that cause in the least.
Raping a female over twitter, facebook, instagram, and ect is impossible. I heard somthing like the other day, a woman accused a man of rape because he made a joke about having sex with woman who doesn't even exist in his YouTube video.
Sure, but not taking those precautions still doesn't mean that a person is to blame for the choice that someone else made to harm them. When it comes to rape, the blame falls only on the person who chose to rape.
While it won't make rape go away entirely (and pretty much nothing will), I think instilling greater value and empathy towards women and moving away from the notion that they are sex objects does help. As we saw in the Steubenville case, there are people out there who don't seem to regard rape with the seriousness it deserves. That's a cultural issue as well as an individual one.
Feminism neither blames all men for rape nor claims that all men are rapists. A few fringe members might subscribe to this, but it's certainly not a central doctrine of the movement. Feminists, by and large, acknowledge that males can, in fact, get raped and that females can be rapists. But when they're saying things like "placing blame on victims in rape cases produces a culture that allows rape to do more harm" and get a response like "Well men get raped too," they naturally see it as distracting from the central issue.
Well, you shouldn't have to deal with that. The fact that that kind of thing happens to you and other women so much more than it happens to me and other men is indicative of a problem with our culture and how we see women. And not everyone reacts to that sort of thing with the sort of pluck that you have. Some people feel really threatened or violated when that happens, maybe because they've face a worse situation before or because they've heard those stories of men violently assaulting women for ignoring them or turning them down. The fact that you feel the need to carry pepper spray or have someone walk you to and from your car when I don't is an injustice in our society.
That's just the thing. Everyone doesn't seem to know that. There are people out there who honestly just see it as a compliment and think that women should care or be flattered that some random dude in the street thinks she's hot. That's why it's important to make people aware of how uncomfortable women feel when they're subjected to those things. Even if it doesn't convince the cat-caller to stop doing, maybe it'll convince a bystander to call that person out on their inappropriate behavior.
The issue wasn't "which sex has more pressure placed on it by society," it was "which sex is more sexually objectified." If you agree with my points, then you agree with me that women are more sexually objectified than men. And yeah, feminism is also concerned with the fact that women aren't expected or wanted as breadwinners and that all that's expected or wanted of them is to sit there and look pretty. I wouldn't consider being treated like a trophy as being "favored." You might be content or see it as a blessing to get through life on your looks, but for others, it's a detriment. For a woman who's attractive but wants to succeed on her own intellectual merit, being told that a pretty girl like her shouldn't be working is offensive. And for a woman who's unattractive, being told that she should surgically alter her body or starve herself in order to do better is extremely harmful.
I've been saying that it's possible that the different distributions of men and women in politics might just be because of different preferences between men and women. But the only way to know for sure is to make it so that those are the only factors in play. And that means trying to mitigate those stereotypes and trying to make it easier for women to get into politics.
I don't know where you're getting the idea that "most" feminists are like how you describe. I personally went to one of the most liberal colleges in the US and have taken gender studies classes there. I've had lots of disagreement with other feminists there, but I never got the sense that being catered to, being given extra privileges, and demonizing men was what they were going for. A lot of them who are radical feminists are opposed to the "patriarchy" as a power system that was formed by men and benefits men in certain ways, but they don't think that every man is an evil scumbag trying to keep women down. It's only natural that those in power enact policies that benefit them and those like them. What they seek to attack is the system in place, not the people in it. A lot of them would that patriarchy should be opposed because it oppresses men as well.
I think all people should be treated equally but some feminists take things out of hand A LOT so they can be annoying sometimes, and in America it's not really that big of a thing.... or at least it shouldn't be.
But Anita Sarkessian...She brings up "Valid points"...I made myself laugh...
I know, I explicitly said it is never the victim's fault if they're raped, but the predator's. Modern Feminism's approach to "solving" this issue is teaching men not to rape, which everyone knows is just illogical, so I went on to list several precautions that both men and women should take to protect themselves, while refraining from placing the blame solely on one gender. Rapists are always going to be around, just as thieves, and murderers are going to be as well. People need to learn to protect themselves from potential threats, not play the blame game.
Generally, women aren't regarded as sex objects, and the Steubenville incident is just one case, and the rapists were found guilty in that trial. Just because rape happens, doesn't mean there is "rape culture", because rape would have to be acceptable and legal if there were. Obviously, rape is illegal and in no western society is rape viewed as acceptable in any way. Whoever commits an act of rape is ostracized and rightfully so, just look at what happened to the Steubenville rapists. Rape is a specific act of violent assault in which someone is forced into an act against their will or without their knowledge. Aside from murder, it is the ultimate burglary of individual freedom and, most commonly, an expression of the attacker’s desire for power rather than sexual satisfaction. By saying it is a cultural problem, that rape is being normalized and is being taught to young men and boys, is not only diminishing the seriousness of rape, but is pretty insulting to the men who would never ever touch a woman without their consent, and it's also irrational to claim that we pretty much live in a society where rapists/rape is condoned. A man doesn't have the desire to rape because our Society "over-sexualize" women, he doesn't all of a sudden want to rape because he goes to the strip club/watches too much porn. And as I said before, blaming all men for the crimes of sick individuals is counter productive.
Either you're legitimately unaware of how large and vocal the majority of crazy feminists are, or you refuse to see it. The radicals are not a small minority like you seem to think, they are the leaders of your movement, and are the driving force behind it. There are more than just a few bad apples in Feminism, what these people do is inexcusable and unjustifiable. If the level headed and rational feminists don't like what their movement has become they should do something about it. Not say it's a different type of feminism, or that the crazy ones aren't real feminists etc. (Saying they aren't real feminists is a perfect example of the No True Scotsman logical fallacy by the way.)
Eh, it is what it is. Everyone is going to be uncomfortable or feel threatened by something/someone at one point in their life, catcalling is one of those things that you just need to brush off. Telling women that they are victims, and should be terrified every time they're catcalled at isn't empowering or helping women. Catcalling isn't cultural, if it were than it would be praised and accepted. It's not, it is tolerated because you can't force scumbags to act like gentlemen, that's just the way it is. If a woman feels unsafe, take precaution as I said before, buy a stun gun/pepper spray/handgun, learn self defense, don't go to any sketchy areas alone etc. Yes, ideally, you shouldn't have to take precautions, but it's just the reality of the situation. It would be like saying "I shouldn't lock my doors, because burglars shouldn't rob my house!" You're still going to lock your doors, because you have common sense, and know that burglars don't care what's right and what's wrong.
Well, I've had annoying and vulgar catcalls that I don't appreciate or acknowledge, but I've also had genuine compliments from people I don't know saying things like "wow, you're pretty", "hi beautiful", or "have a nice day darling", and they don't bother me. They aren't hurting me or any girl when they compliment my appearance or wish me a good day. Modern Feminism encourages women to be scared of every man they meet who so much as smiles at them, saying they are a potential rapist/predator, and that all men are bad. This type of mentality is demonizing the good men out there, and it's extremely unfair. The guys who say gross things are creeps and aren't going to change, even if by some crazy chance they don't know they're making women uncomfortable. It's unfathomable to me that you don't understand that they just don't care how they're making women feel, and people need to recognize this and move on.
I believe both genders are objectified sexually, this was already established in my previous posts. The problem is that both are being sexually objectified, it is irrelevant which one "wins" at being more sexually objectified. Women aren't unwanted as breadwinners, if anything they're praised and encouraged a lot more than the women who just want to be stay at home moms. I've been attacked by quite a few feminists at my college, and told I have "internalized misogyny" for wanting to stay at home and raise my children when I get married, instead of being a career woman. I didn't say anything about being a trophy, all I mean is that life is a lot easier for a woman once she "gets a man", because it's expected of that man to take care of her, and provide for her needs/wants. If a woman seriously see's her beauty as a handicap in her career, then not only is that just plain stupid, it's pretty self centered too. As for the women who see themselves as less attractive, that's a personal self esteem issue, not something that Feminism is ever going to fix.
I have yet to see any women in power, or women running for political positions being discouraged, or looked down upon just because she's female. If by some chance anyone has said anything sexist about women in power is usually the ones who are called out for their sexist statement, and put in their place by others. I believe you're creating more problems where there are none.
I feel like you're really cut off from your movement if that's what you honestly believe.The Patriarchy myth has also been debunked quite a while ago, just saying.
Thank you, I appreciate that you enjoy both my serious and snarky posts lol
In the United States, women do have the rights to do most things that men do, but there still are discrepancies. For instance, women still make less than men for the same work. Also note that only this year were women finally allowed to compete in the ski jump at the olympics, and women will finally be able to serve on the front lines in the US military next year. However, women still can't serve in the US Army Special Operations.
The women's rights movement definitely has come a long way, but there's still a long way to go.
The telling thing about the Steubenville case isn't the act of the rape itself. It's the brazenness and callousness with which the perpetrators documented and shared their act. It's the dozens of students passing around the photos of someone being violated and thinking it's funny or okay. It's the community reaction of trying to shield "their boys" from prosecution and the anger and blame aimed at the victim for "putting herself in that situation". It's the people downplaying of acts of date rape or rape of someone who's intoxicated as a lesser form of rape. It's the news reports lamenting the loss of two talented high school athletes rather than condemning the monstrous acts they committed. That's what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture. And Steubenville is far from the only case where this happens. Is rape generally viewed as acceptable in society? No. But in too many cases, it really isn't treated with the seriousness it deserves.
They're certainly are the loudest voices, but they aren't the most numerous. Like I said, I'm been in places that should have been hotbeds for the crazy "feminazis" people talk about and yet I hardly saw a one. When it comes to real life, honestly, the extreme feminists I've encountered are few and far between. (The internet is, of course, a different story as it's always going to be a gathering place for crazies and trolls of all groups.)
What do you propose that they do? What action can moderate members of a movement do against the more extreme ones other than say "Hey, those people's attitudes do not represent my attitudes or the attitudes of the movement as a whole"? The expectation that people have animosity towards their own label because of the actions of some of their members is exactly what I find disagreeable about extreme feminists.
I see it the same way I see bullying. In most instances, it's something that can be brushed off or dealt with on a case by case basis, but we should still do what we can to try to stop it from being so prevalent. Yes, bullying is probably always going to be a thing, but if we teach kids to not be tolerant of it, maybe we can make it less of a thing.
And feminists do encourage women to do those things. They just also want to tackle the problem at what they see as its roots, rather than just treating the symptoms. It's like giving a few dollars to the poor is good and helpful, but it's also important to promote economic equality in the society at large to decrease the number of people who find themselves in poverty in the first place.
Well, like I said, they might be hurting people who've experience worse kinds of harassment or even assault before. You might not think it's a big deal that someone is checking you out, but others who've had different experiences do. And if it's not much of a detriment to you for those comments to stop and is a big relief for others, then I think it's good to encourage people to stop verbally evaluating other people's physical appearance without being solicited to do so. I do think the more vulgar iterations of this is the main problem, though.
And that's something that shouldn't happen (unless you said something like "I think as a woman, I would be better suited to stay at home and raise my children than pursue a career" in which case, yeah I can see where they're coming from). There are some feminists who want downplay the motherhood/caretaker role because they think that it's an institution that's being imposed on women to keep them out of power, but there are also feminists (I believe my gender studies professor was one) who want to celebrate and dignify the activities generally seen as "feminine" and make it more okay for men to want to pursue them as well.
So a pet, then. The point is that the expectation that women just need to look pretty to be successful undermines that agency that women have over their own lives, and reduces their worth to one largely genetically determined trait that they either have or they don't. It's patronizing at best.
I think it's a personal self-esteem issue caused by the over-valuing of physical attractiveness, something that feminism is trying to combat. Whether it will ultimately find some success is arguable, but the cause is noble.
You didn't notice how much time was spent discussing Hilary's perceived "emotional" weaknesses or family issues or how people like Bill O'Reilly questioned if having a female president would cause our country to look weaker in the eyes of other countries? Now these instances were called out (though mostly by comedians like Jon Stewart and such), but the fact that these things were discussed so openly in media is a problem.
How so? It's a mere fact that many of the systems in place were created by men and it's true that in many important areas (like politics, business, and science), men still hold more power than women.
I like chicken i like liver
I like meow mix please deliver.
I like chicken, I like liver, Meow Mix, Meow Mix, please deliver
Get your 90's cat food jingles straight, George.
i like fat atheists with bananas up their ass
Kind of irrelevant - an ex-girlfriend uploaded that without consent, if you're trying to be liberal, not exactly the way to go about it.
That doesn't mean it's caused by rape culture. Because there are still people who get killed, simply for being accused of rape. Rape is still viewed as one of the worst crimes a person can commit (second to child molestation/sex abuse), even by other criminals. and really no one can rationally suggest that our society does not come down like the hammer of God on a convicted rapist. It destroys them as a human being. Not just the prison sentences, and the brutal treatment within prison, but sex offender lists and all the rest. Our society deplores and loathes rapists and any rational person can see that. We hate rapists more than we do murderers, and I’d count murder a more heinous crime than rape. Years of counseling can’t take the edge off murder, a supportive and loving family can’t help repair the murdered. Yet rape is considered, by society, the more vile. Ask any prison inmate if he’d rather be labeled a murderer in prison, or a rapist.
I'm sorry, but they definitely are. If the main speakers and advocates of Modern Feminism are radicals, and if the majority of each event involves the radicals and is often ran by them, and the fact that most kids subscribing to feminism usually take on the mentality of hating all men, and the "sane" feminists stay quiet each time the radicals do something, well, frickin' insane, than that means you're outnumbered, and you have no control over your movement.
Leave your movement, because it has been infected by these groups. The word Feminism has been forever tainted, and is no longer associated with equality. Leave and join one that actually fits the ideologies you have, don't stay in such a cancerous movement, and isolate yourself from the main parties and hope that you aren't associated with them. You are associated with them, saying there are just a few radicals may have worked years ago, but not anymore. Modern Feminism is toxic.
Telling kids not to bully hasn't eliminated bullying either. That movement has been pretty ineffective too, just like Feminism is with "teach men not to rape." Kids still bully, most don't care if they're hurting other kids' feelings. What we really should be doing is teaching kids to stand up to their bullies, and building up their confidence so they don't feel inadequate when it happens, building a support group for them so they don't feel alone, help them learn to defend themselves physically and emotionally etc.
Attacking the problems at the roots is a lost cause though. That would be like telling people their opinion is hurtful so they should keep it to themselves, most people don't care what you think of their opinions or if they're hurting your feelings, especially the kind of people who do gross catcalls. Perpetuating the victim complex some women have doesn't help anyone, and trying to fight a losing battle by telling people it's wrong to do catcalls and that they're hurting people when they do these things is just redundant. They don't care, they never will care, because there are, and always will be bad people in the world. Feminism is not helping this issue in the least, all it has done is made feminists look even more ridiculous than they already do. Focus on what you can fix, and what you can do to help. Like educating, and training women to be able to protect themselves.
It's one statement out of how many you hear each day? It lasts, what, maybe a few seconds/minutes? Catcalls are annoying and can be uncomfortable, this has been established, but it's not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. Instead of attempting to force creeps to change or stop being vulgar, which will never work in a thousand years, women should be learning to brush these remarks off, and to defend themselves both physically and emotionally when it occurs. Not have feminists telling them they're the victim, and that they should always be afraid.
If a woman wants to work, she can work, if she wants to stay home and take care of the kids, she can do that too. Women can even work and take care of their children at the same time if they so please. It's just tradition that the man provides for the household and the woman raises the children, but no woman has to do this if she doesn't want to. If a woman doesn't like the way she's being treated by her husband, then she can divorce him and leave.
..Honestly, when you compare women being loved and cherished by their husbands, who often show their gratitude, affection and love for their wives in different ways such as by providing for them to having a frickin pet, and then to imply that they're forced into being taken care of and have no say in the matter, or that they somehow are devaluing themselves by taking pride in their looks is astronomically rude. You make it sound as though you're doing women a favor by pointing out these "injustices". So from your pov, all women who are in a marriage with traditional gender roles have no choice over anything that happens to them, because you say that they doesn't have a choice etc. Because you obviously know how all women feel about the matter, and women need you to speak for them from what I can understand, right?
Women aren't helpless, we don't need saving, and we are perfectly capable of doing anything we want to do. If that includes getting married and being taken care of by their husband for some women, as opposed to being a full time career woman, then that's their choice and that's none of your business. We live in a civilized Western society, if a woman gets married, there's a very high chance she chose to get married, and wasn't trapped or forced into it as you continue to imply. You are not empowering or helping women by saying that women are somehow devaluing themselves because they take pride in their appearance, and that apparently every woman who is doted on by her husband is the equivalent to a pet. You seriously sound like you look down on women when you say thoughtless things like that. And funnily enough, you're coming across as patronizing and sexist. You make it seem like women are these weak, little things who need constant reassuring and special treatment to make it through life. I really shouldn't need saying, but we aren't any of those things and we don't need the warped version of "help" that modern feminism is selling.
Not really. We value our physical appearances because we're human, we're fundamentally vain and selfish creatures. It's not the most important thing there is, but people will always care about how they look, or how they are perceived by others. And that's not a condemning thing. If a woman is insecure about her looks, the only one who can fix it is her. Relying on Feminism to make you feel good about yourself, and forcing people to find you attractive even if you don't fit their personal preferences is unrealistic, and just sad.
That doesn't have anything to do with her being a woman, her family is discussed because her husband was the former president, and it's also not uncommon for politicians' families to be talked about in the media. Her "emotional" weaknesses usually revolve around her health, and the fact that she has a brain tumor, people are speculating whether it's wise for her to run when her health is deteriorating. And of course people are going to discuss both the pros and cons of having a potential female president, we've never had one before. That doesn't mean we won't ever have one. And in the end, people saying sexist things about her are called out and reprimanded for their statements every time.
I'll say it again, just because there are more men in certain positions doesn't mean that there are less women in power, or that men hold authority over women. I don't want this post to be ridiculously long (well, anymore ridiculously long), but this explains why the Patriarchy doesn't exist in America for the most part.
Patriarchy (n.): a family, group, or government controlled by a man or a group of men
And according to Princeton University:
Patriarchy is a multidimensional condition of power and status. Whyte’s 1978 comprehensive study examined 52 indicators of patriarchy, which corresponded to 10 relatively independent dimensions. The ten dimensions are:
-lack of property control by women
-lack of power of women in kinship contexts
-low value placed on the lives of women
-low value placed on the labor of women
-lack of domestic authority of women
-absence of ritualized female solidarity
-absence of control over women’s marital and sexual lives
-absence of ritualized fear of women
-lack of male-female joint participation in warfare, work, and community decision making
-lack of women’s indirect influence on decision making
There are undeniably societies in the world today that are patriarchies. A place like Saudi Arabia comes to mind as well as institutions like the Catholic Church in which women are not entirely excluded (i.e., nuns) but are kept from positions of real power (i.e., the priesthood and the papacy).
In the USA:
-women can (easily) control property: they can rent apartments, buy a house or land, own a business, and inherit and/or will their property to others.
-there are plenty of “housewives”/stay-at-home mothers, but women are typically expected to find a job and work for a living in the same way that men are, and there is no wage gap between male and female workers.
-though it’s hard to say given that domestic violence stories focus almost solely on male-on-female violence, I might argue that women often have more domestic authority than men; for example, they have more control of their family’s disposable income and are far more likely to get custody of their children in case of a divorce.
-"absence of ritualized female solidarity" - well, I think we know that’s not applicable to the US.
-aside from states that have made abortion difficult to obtain, women control their own bodies and sexuality, and aside from where it is an issue of LGBT equality, women have the power to marry (and divorce) whom they choose, when they choose.
-Many industries are relatively evenly balanced between men and women. As for “community decision making,” women are more likely to vote than men, so while it would be nice to have more women running for office, women nevertheless have more of a say in who gets elected.
Ultimately, women have the choice to wear the kinds of clothes they like; vote; pursue almost any career; drive a car; live where and with whom they want to; have children (or not); get married (or not); cut their hair; have sex with whom they choose, etc. While many people may criticize them for making what they deem “incorrect” or “inappropriate” choices, no patriarch or patriarchal authority is going to punish women for making them.
(Can we just agree to disagree now? We're clogging up the thread at this point with our posts, and clearly neither of us is going to back down or concede.)
Hey Jennifer, what's up!
Anyway, It's come far and some of those are true but the wag gap thing is false. Women still have things to get as rights say but we don't need another movement, it's progressing well on it's own. The new age Feminism is wanting female superiority not gender equality. I am all for Feminism but not this new age Feminzai crap.
I'm going to guess the latter...
What's the issue in China?
Normal oppression stuff and killing baby girls.
Well i never liked cats anyways.
My boarder collie loves them though.
See my new comment in this thread.
[Continuing discussion with @Tinni]
We're clogging up a thread asking for views on feminism with a discussion about feminism. I think we're in the clear. Although it may help to continue this in another comment since this strand is getting kind of unwieldy. So I'm going to do so.
Rape is seen as a very bad thing, but there are apparently still ways that people trivialize it as is evident in examples like the one I gave. If our society really does come down like the hammer of god on rapists, you wouldn't see the callous and harmful attitudes that we saw Steubenville case or the horrible mishandling of rape cases by colleges or the countless reports of women who were asked accusatory questions about their level of intoxication or how they were dressed when they reported their assault. The evidence that rape isn't always given the weight it deserves is right in front of us. If you don't want to call it "rape culture," fine. I'm not super attached to the terminology. What I am attached to is the idea that the attitudes we see are harmful and that we should find ways to combat them rather than just shrugging our shoulders because they're never going to completely go away or pretending they aren't there.
By "radicals" do you mean that they subscribe to some concepts in the radical feminist school of thought like the existence and harmfulness of the patriarchy or that they have extremist views that all men are rapists and such? Because those are two aren't the same thing. If feminism were truly mostly populated with the latter then, of course, I wouldn't want any part of it. But if it's just people who oppose patriarchy as a structure, yeah that's "radical feminism" but it's not extreme or misandrist.
Cite me an example of a crazy thing that feminist extremists do and I'll cite you three feminist moderates condemning it. (Unless it's a really small and obscure thing, in which case I wouldn't expect a lot of other feminists to have heard of it to respond.)
The campaigns obviously aren't going to work on serial rapists or those who attack random passerbys. That's not who the campaigns are targeting. The campaigns are primarily targeting people who might think it's okay to persist in pressuring a woman to have sex when she's already said no or who think it's okay to sexually engage with people who are too intoxicated to give consent. To compare it to bullying, it's like teaching kids to be aware of their words because they can have very harmful effects on others. It won't reach the kids who are actively trying to hurt their peers, but it might reach those who don't think it's that big of a deal to mock someone's appearance to make their peers laugh. Same with campaigns against catcalling. It won't reach the people who are actively trying to make women uncomfortable, but it might make those who think that saying things like "Damn girl! Work that ass!" is a harmless compliment think twice.
When a woman gets harassed, she's a victim of harassment. No one has to tell her that she's a victim and that she should feel afraid or violated or annoyed, but women do feel that way when they get catcalled. Pretty much all feminists would love seeing a woman to stand up for herself when being harassed in the street, but given the sometimes very aggressive reactions of people whose advances are rebuffed, that's not always a very viable option. So yeah, women do have to learn to put up with those remarks and try as best they can to brush them off because they don't really have another choice. But if we're going to try to be a more civilized and advanced society, we should also try to send a very clear message that that kind of behavior is not going to be tolerated, not just by the women being harassed, but also the people witnessing the harassment.
Uh...pointing out that there are unfair and patronizing societal expectations for women isn't saying that they don't have a choice. They do. It's just harder for them to make that choice than it should be. When a woman is pressured by her family or peers to get a husband while she's still of good child-bearing age rather than focus on her career, she can certainly say no, but that's still a pressure that shouldn't exist for her. I'm not making these things up, these are things that I've heard women have actually complained about, both through online forums and in person in real life. You might not have felt those pressures yourself since your preferences happen to align with them, but they are there and they are obstructive to those who don't share your aspirations.
You don't think that the representation of female figures in media might affect whether or not young women end up developing insecurities about their bodies? You don't think that advocating for fewer of those representations or different representations or stronger societal emphasis on traits other than physical appearance might decrease the number of women who need to "fix" their insecurities?
No, it was for her shedding a few tears while making an emotional speech or speaking aggressively about issues that are important to her. As if no male politician ever did any of that.
Mostly by people who call themselves feminists.
How does 20% of women in the both US Congressional Houses compared to 80% of men and 5% of women in Fortune 500 companies compared to 95% of men not mean that there are less women in power?
I'm curious why you cited this and not the passage from the Princeton page that seems much more relevant to this discussion: "Within feminist theory, patriarchy refers to the structure of modern cultural and political systems, which are ruled by men." Most of our modern cultural and political systems are ruled by men, as I've pointed out above. If you want to use that GGFSJ blog post (which you should really have cited if you aren't actually the author of the post) to argue that patriarchy as defined by Whyte isn't a problem in America, sure. Fine. But those aren't the things being referred to in feminist theory. What's being referred to in feminist theory is a social system in which men hold the majority of the power. And that is, in fact, the case, as I have shown.
Do you have any link to back up your claim that the wage gap is false? Every study I've seen shows that the wage gap is still present. The article I linked above states there's been numerous studies that show that women still make less than men in the same field, even among the millenial generation, and even in fields that are traditionally dominated by women. And, according to the first study in that article, the gap is around $20,000 a year, which is significant.
There were a number of recent newspaper articles, petitions, and protests that led to the changes in the Olympics and the US military that I linked above. There has been small movements since the at least 90s to make these changes, but it wasn't until recently that the movements have become larger, and with large petition websites like change.org actually attracting media attention for serious issues (not just for women's rights, but for the rights of many other groups as well), those in charge are finally taking notice and making changes. Things don't change on their own, sadly. It would be great if they did, but people still need to push for change in order for it to happen.
Well, There are but i'm too lazy to go searching for them. :P
I just don't agree that we need these huge movements to push things that are coming. It's like us petitioning Telltale for games faster and we get opposition and a mess. The same thing is happening with these movements.
First of all these movements have terrible leadership and poor marketing skills (Have you seen that F Bombs for Feminism video?). I agree Feminism is needed in some places however we had a movement here and the main rights have been given to women. After the main movement very small movements have gotten a few other things to push it along while the bar is moving at a pretty steady increase. Feminism has gotten a bad name in America because of Feminists like Anita Sarkessain and Valerie Solanas. If REAL Feminsim is toget anywhere in America without the steady increase then Femisnists need to stop supporting those liars, thieves, and radicals.
Alright, but I still would prefer if we just agreed to disagree. I posted my opinion about Feminism, I (surprisingly) wasn't even looking to have a debate in the first place. I'm only replying to defend my viewpoint. I think it would be best if we just leave it at that and go our separate ways, because I don't have as much leisurely time to spend online debating.
The Steubenville rapists are in prison, how was that case handled without seriousness? They didn't brutally rape the girl, they put their genitals in her mouth, and put their fingers in her vagina while she was unconscious, and they still went to prison ( don't misunderstand, I'm happy with the verdict, but those guys definitely got the most severe sentence) If it hadn't been handled the way it was, they would have gotten something like community service, or some lesser offense in jail. There is a monumental difference between interrogation and victim blaming. Questions such as what you were wearing, and how much alcohol did you consume are investigatory questions. It’s because investigators and detectives are obligated to attempt to find out both sides of the story and if they add up. “But who would lie about rape?” one might ask. Unfortunately, several people. And so as a precaution, and to gather more accurate details, the “victim” and “accused” are both asked similar questions in hopes of getting two completely matching stories that line up with the evidence found. Most times you’ll be repeating this story again and again, and someone will be keeping track of what you say. A consistent story is often regarded as trustworthy, especially if it matches up with the evidence. But most people can not keep a straight story if they’re asked multiple invasive detailed questions and they’re lying. People lie to the police all the time. About murder, drugs, rape etc. About everything really. (Take note that not once do I mention gender, because for the last time, both men and women are victims of rape, and both men and women are capable of rape.) Also, here are some facts regarding the "2% false rape claim figure" that is being pushed by feminists
Both are major components to Modern Feminism, because the perpetuation of the Patriarchy myth turns women against men, all Modern Feminism truly ends up doing is pitting the two genders against one another. If you're a feminist, you're condoning the acts that the majority of your movement are apart of by continuing to stand by this movement when it's beyond saving.
Feminists being insane in first world countries and a few other countries as well. There's a lot more, but several of the original videos that show them being even more nuts have been taken down, and the page can't be found for other articles I had, and I don't have a lot of time to find more, so this is what I have for now.
link 1
link 2
link 3 (now this one is really messed up)
link 4
link 5(crazy feminists want to make peeing standing up illegal)
link 6
link 7
link 8
link 9
link 10 (feminists say men can't be raped)
link 11
video
Feminists threaten to kill woman for saying men need abuse shelters
video
feminists mock murder of men
feminists defend female raping a minor
modern feminism is actually responsible for the creation of a definition of rape that doesn't allow many rape victims to seek justice
feminists cover up female domestic violence
feminists cover up female domestic abuse statistics
more insanity
another link
feminists fight law against paternity fraud
man gets penis cut off, feminists laugh about it
feminists shut down a festival about gender equality including men
feminists think that women should have the right to put child up for adoption before father gets custody
feminists against beyond reasonable doubt when it's male rapists
5 rights feminists ignore for men
feminists try to classify men's rights group as terrorists
feminists say that men can't talk about domestic abuse
crazy feminists' primary aggressor clause discriminates against males
Feminists fight against Fathers equal rights
feminists win, saying it's discrimination to support men
(Also, I am aware that the man behind A Voice For Men is less than admirable, but the statistics and events cited are accurate and have happened, hence why I've used some of that website's articles as a source.)
It already isn't tolerated in the least, that's why the respectful men, hell, the majority of men as well as women out there look down on the cat-callers, that's why you see people so disgusted with that video that's gone viral of the woman getting catcalls. (which tbh, those catcalls weren't even that bad of catcalls, they were mostly people saying hello, or have a good day. and that's seriously the worst they got in 10 hours of footage? That's just sad.) It isn't getting any positive feedback, it would if it was being tolerated or accepted. Nobody is disputing that they aren't being harassed, what I am disputing is you saying that only one gender harasses the other, and that that harassment of females is more important than males, that all men cat call and that women need to be coddled because all of them are apparently too terrified to speak up for themselves. As I've said countless times before, instead of demonizing all men for the behavior of assholes, actually do something that can make a difference, such as arming women with the skills and self defense devices so they don't have to feel so unsafe. People stand up for women being harassed all the time, what, do you think people who hear women being legitimately harassed on the street commend those doing the harassing and cheer them on? You're really reaching there. We already are a civilized society, and once again, Modern Feminism is focusing on areas of people that are already loathed by majority of Society. Telling the scumbags that "you're making girls uncomfortable" won't change a thing about them. They're still going to be scumbags, and lumping the good men in with them is unfair, which is what feminist tactics are doing, whether they know it or not. These type of low-lives will always exist, and they shouldn't even be acknowledged by anyone, especially if they're catcalling. Modern Feminism isn't empowering women by complaining about catcalling, they're just aggravating and pissing people off over the inevitable reality that it's going to happen. It's like pissing people off about taxes, and how we hate being taxed, and some people are more taxed than others etc. Everybody wishes the taxes would go down, or just plain go away, but screaming, attacking, and blaming one group of people isn't going to lower, or get rid of taxes.
How is it a societal expectation if plenty of women don't follow this expectation every day and are praised for it, often more so than stay at home moms? So now anyone who suggests to their loved one that she may want to settle down and have kids is being patronizing, and shouldn't say anything because they may be pressuring and negatively affecting a woman's ego without knowing it? How fragile do you think women are? Men are pressured by their families to settle down and find a wife and have children too. And both men and women alike have declined these pieces of advice if it isn't what they want, nobody is forcing them to do anything.
No, I feel these pressures all the time, in fact my Uncle asks me every time he visits why I'm not married and haven't had babies yet, and that I should be putting that as first priority, and I always say I'm too focused on school/work and don't have time for that right now in my life. And then I move on, and everything is fine. I don't succumb to tears, or take offense just because someone told me I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, or I should be doing something else with my life, if anyone is that weak minded to let simple comments like that get to them they really should be focusing on fixing themselves. As with almost everything else Modern Feminism flips out about, this is not that big of a deal. There's pressure within Society, your family/friends are going to pressure you even if it's unintentionally, you're going to be uncomfortable/annoyed with it, that's a given. But tough luck, that's life, and whining about it isn't going to make everything magically better, especially when what you're complaining about is so damn trivial.
Complaining about the comments made by others (ex; why are you working on your degree, and not trying to find a husband? Why don't you want kids?), and how it makes you feel bad/annoyed/less confident about your choices is your problem if you don't possess the resolve to be in charge of your own decisions in your life. Again, Modern Feminism is encouraging women to think that they should be up in arms, and take offense every time a loved one asks them why they don't have kids yet, or aren't married. To people who get this upset, and that think it's a huge issue, you're allowing people's words to have power over you, just get over it and move on. It's extremely unrealistic, not everyone is going to be 100% behind every decision you make, whether you're a man or a woman.
The same can be said for representation of male figures affecting young men negatively who can't live up to that image, and develop insecurities about their bodies. However, blaming the media for your poor self esteem isn't going to raise your self esteem, even if it was caused by unrealistic expectations of men and women's bodies. Only you can raise your self esteem, wallowing in self pity/getting mad at the media, and relying on angry feminists won't make you feel better about yourself.
And when male politicians tear up during a speech, there are also people who say they look weak, or made America look weak by doing so, ever heard of John Boehner? So this really isn't exclusive to Hilary Clinton. Women aren't in need of special treatment as it seems you've been implying. If a politician makes a speech, regardless of whether they're a woman or a man, there are going to people who nitpick the hell out of it and try to find something to criticize to make them look bad. That is nothing new.
You say it's people who call themselves feminists. Just as many people who aren't feminists call out people for sexism and racism. And the only reason why feminists are perceived to call people out for racism and sexism more is because it's the feminists who are quick to jump to conclusions and use buzzwords like "racist" and "sexist" to slander and silence those who call out their movement, who say things that piss feminists off because they disagree. And just because feminists are the ones who scream "racist/sexist" every time they hear something they don't like, and sometimes that person actually is racist or sexist does not validate the necessity of Modern Feminism, nor does it excuse the massive amount of times where feminists have falsely accused people of being racist or sexist.
It means that just because a woman isn't in that position, doesn't mean she has absolutely no say in what happens to issues concerning her and her country, she still has just as many rights as she would even if there were more women in certain positions. Not every single man in those positions are misogynistic sexists whose goal is to make things worse for women. That's just unrealistic and delusional. And again, just because a company has more men than women, doesn't mean that company is actively refusing women for positions, it's most likely that more men apply for those positions than women, because men and women are evidently attracted to different fields of work.
And you keep talking about how men are favored more than women, that men have it so easy, and never face discrimination when that couldn't be further from the truth. As I said before, both men and women have their advantages and disadvantages. (links below have recently been edited in to support this statement 7/21/2015)
men pay 97% of alimony
men make up 94% of work suicides
men make up 93% of workplace deaths
men make up 81% of war deaths
men lose custody in 84% of divorces
77% of homicide victims are male
89% of men will be the victim of at least one violent crime
men are over twice as victimized as women
man raped and forced to pay child support
many male victims of statutory rape are expected to pay child support
military rape affects men more than women
men get 63% longer sentences than women for same crime
Did you know that it's only women who are able to decide whether or not they want to keep their child in the case of abortion, and that the father's input doesn't matter at all because "no uterus no opinion"? If a woman wants an abortion, the man has no say, if the woman wants to keep the baby, the man still has no say, and more often than not has to pay child support regardless of whether or not he wanted the child to begin with. The mother has full control over whether that baby lives or dies, the father's word means nothing, how is that fair? And in some cases, women get away with tricking the man into believing it's his child even when it's not, and many feminists want to outlaw a man's right to find out for sure if it's his child. Let's say a man's wife cheated on him and got knocked up, he divorces her, but here's the doozy, guess who has to pay the child support if the child was conceived while they were still married? In several cases, the husband does.. Even though it's not his child. And despite more than 80% of child custody cases being rewarded to women, there is no jurisdiction in the United States that upholds a presumption of equality between parents. And many male victims of statutory rape are still forced to pay child support. Also, regardless of the draft no longer being implemented in the US, it's certainly not women who are being forced to register for selective service.
Feminist theory defines Patriarchy as "an unjust social system that is oppressive to women", the points made in my previous post debunking it still stand, for we would not have these things if we were indeed oppressed and lived in an actual Patriarchy.The definition in my previous post also contains the elements that make up a Patriarchy, and the points below refute them. It's not about there being more men than women in power, it's about how much authority, control and say women still have in their lives and, just as every citizen of America has, even when they aren't in these political positions of power. Also, fun fact, women make up the majority of those who vote, so ironically, it is women choosing to elect men over women to these positions. Anyway, going by the elements that constitute a Patriarchy, America is not a Patriarchy, a country like Saudi Arabia, where a woman can be killed for expressing her opinions, is a Patriarchy. If you're still in denial about this, then maybe we should end this discussion.
You are not helping the women who actually need Feminism in other countries by complaining about such minuscule annoyances (like cat calling) that everyone has to deal with at one point in first world countries. Honestly, we're going in circles and I have repeated myself numerous times, so let's just break that cycle and end this here. I've said what I had to say, and so will you after you respond to this. Not to mention, this post is so long that I had to edit parts out to make sure it all fit and nothing disappeared when I posted it.
Feminism that got us voting rights and wanted to see the advancement of women in political, social, and military roles = Great
Modern day femnazi's parading as 'feminists' = Enough to make me not call myself a feminist for fear of being thrown in the general idea of a feminist.
As in an abortion? Fucking hell. I get so mad when I hear about oppressive stuff like this happening in China. They tried to ban relationships between teenagers last year. Makes me glad that I really do live in a free country.
Equality is good. I hate how people bash feminism because the supporters are... "overzealous", to put it lightly.
Feminism is an idea, not a clan of man-hating women. xD
What pisses me off a lot is when people get butthurt about women not being represented properly in video games. Take what happened with AC: Unity for example. There was pretty much a public outcry that you couldn't play as a female character. So what? It's a VIDEO GAME, for entertainment. When exactly did they become more than that? I play games because I enjoy them, not because I want to know what's right and wrong. Developers will do what will keep their careers alive, not what you want, and if not having female protagonists is what they have to do, then nobody should force them to do it. Think about others and how shoving feminism in people's faces will affect them before you start complaining.
Sorry about the rant, but I get really angry over this sort of thing.
Asking for inclusionism in video games is not a bad thing when it comes to games with multiple player characters. Sometimes it leads to a better game. For example, people asked Double Fine to add same sex couples to Massive Chalice, and they did. And it made the game better for it, as it adds a challenging element to the game to have a fort stronghold that can't reproduce to create heirs. Plus, since it's completely optional, there's no reason that anyone has to play the game that way if they don't want, so everybody wins.
But, yeah. The way that some people went about it for Assassin's Creed Unity was unacceptable. Death threats. Really? People really need to realize that there are real people behind the screen, and people can get seriously damaged (emotionally and sometimes physically if some more off-kilter person actually makes good on the threats) by such vile comments. The internet can be full of really awful people, and a lot of them aren't even anonymous, posting hate with their Facebook accounts publicly linked. It's madness, really.
I agree. I'm not sure if everyone knew what I meant, but what I was saying is that game developers aren't going to put their careers at risk to add strong female characters in games. For example, let's say you're creating a game that isn't really ideal for having well-developed female characters, and when the feminazis see this they pressure you to put female characters in your game. Buckling under the pathetic outrage, you do it, then your game becomes a flop and you lose a ton of money over what was meant to be your creation, but you were forced to butcher it yourself because a few people blew it out of proportion. That's just a cruel thing to do. Some supposed "feminists" these days want everybody to always show support for their cause even when it negatively affects them, and I think that people like that give feminism a bad name and creates more hate against feminism.
I remember a segment of one of Anita Sarkessian's videos that AngryJoe used in his "Top Ten Gaming Controversies of 2013" video. In it, she says she would love to play video games but she doesn't want to go around shooting people. Well... bad effing luck! Some others do want to do that. What makes your preference more important than them?
I could rant for decades, but I think I've made my view on this pretty clear.