Physical Health vs Mental Health
So a while ago I and a few others got in a very heated argument about drugs and suicide. If any of those people wish to come forward with their views then they are welcome (if you guys are reading this then you know who you are). I won't name any of them though.
So this was during a thread I made about the state of the gaming industry today, and one member posted "The best way to waste your life is by playing video games" to which another member replied "No, the best way to waste your life is by doing drugs."
This lead to two members arguing about whether a person should be allowed to use drugs. One viewpoint was that a person has sovereignty over their own body. The opposing view was that people should not be allowed to consume drugs because they endanger lives. The argument became very heated and many insults were traded until Blind flagged the discussion.
So the point I was trying to make during the argument was that a person should be allowed to do something that damages their body or endangers their life as long as they know the full effects of it. Why? Because maybe that's just how the person wants to live. I apply the same logic to suicide. Most times, the person is depressed and not thinking straight, but I think in times where someone simply doesn't want to live, then I should respect that choice because it isn't my place to tell others how they should live.
It's worth noting that living is a right, which can be exercised at the person's will.
So overall, I believe it's better for a person to do what makes them happy in life. Perhaps they want a short life with happiness from drugs or alcohol. We should make people aware of what these things do to people, then let them make their own choices about how they want to use their body. Because if you're not happy in life, then you're not living. You're just existing.
So what do you guys think about this?
Comments
I don't condone suicide. Yes, depression sucks, but happiness and good mental health can be reclaimed. A lost life can not. If the person was dying from an incurable disease and was in a lot of pain, then sure, it'd be understandable, but I wouldn't respect it in any other circumstance.
Life can really surprise you in good ways. As long as there is hope - no matter how slim - people should keep going, and yes, I know how hard it is, but plenty of people who would consider themselves hopeless and worthless have come out the other side.
People have the right to their own choices of course, but depression and clear judgement can't exactly co-exist. I knew someone who, in a moment of self loathing-induced rage wanted to cut off his hand. Now that he's better, he's so goddamn glad he didn't go through with it. "Respect peoples' choices" is a good attitude, but there are exceptions to most attitudes
Well I agree that there are exceptions to attitudes. And by the way, if someone I knew confessed to me that they intended to take their own life, I would try to talk them out of it. Reason with them. But overall I can't make the choice for them.
Trying to control people is wrong, but I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to prevent a pointless death. If I have to "control" a person, and conduct myself in an unbecoming manner to make them not kill themselves, so be it. To reference a point in my previous post, freedom can be regained. A lost life can't.
I see what you mean, but do you think there might be times where death might simply be preferable for the person if they go through all that pain and suffering? I think it should be up to a person to decide if life is worth living.
I try to be optimistic and say a lot of mending can be done with counselling, love and a good support network. It may take a very long time for them to get to a place of relative stability, and they may not ever be fully recovered, but everyone should have the chance to find something - or someone - to live for.
Supporting someone else's suicidal thoughts is never a good idea in my opinion, as these people clearly need help. Life isn't just something to throw away like that, regardless of how terrible the suicidal individual is feeling. For sure give them your support... but not in the sense that you're thinking. Talk them out of it, not further into it.
Cannot agree more with that. Everyone should always have a chance, and we should always try to prevent people from ending their own lives. What matters overall is that regardless of the person's choice, they at least gave life a go.
I'm not sure if you got my point. I will try to talk them into it, and I won't tell anybody to do it. I will always support people who need help, but if, after all of it, they still feel that way, then I doubt I could really force them to live.
In the end it is the person's decision, as no one can design or live the person's life for them. You can just hope they at least try to get help. Self inflicted death or assisted suicide is almost never a good answer.
Supporting the choice is sort of enabling them though, is it not? I personally think that stance is counterproductive to helping the individual. If someone is at a stage where they truly want to die, I don't think we should shrug our shoulders, say "oh well" and let them do whatever they want simply because it is their life to do with what they please. You don't just let that person give up. Suicidal thoughts can be temporary, suicide itself is obviously permanent. Like I said above, I don't think we should be so ready to just let these people make decisions like that when they are clearly at a spot where they need all the help they can get (as in complete prevention, not enabling).
Like I said, we should indeed do everything in our power to support them and try and help them, but there comes a point where I think we should stop making them stay around when it's causing them so much pain. I'd rather not exist at all then live in pain and suffering.
I just don't believe in throwing away the ultimate gift just for the sake of conditions that are more often than not temporary/filled with problems that can be fixed. As I said above, suicidal thoughts are temporary, suicide itself is permanent. I think it's crazy to make an ultimate decision like that. And while it may seem reasonable to let the individual make their own decisions, it is not fair to them in the grand scheme of things. Not when they're already driven to the point of irrationality. I understand that you're saying we should do everything in our power to help them, and if that is in fact what you believe, don't you think enabling these people in times of great weakness is not such a good idea?
Sometimes the ultimate gift can come with a lot of pain.
And more often than not pain is temporary, is it not?
Even during the hardest of times, people need to remain strong. I don't believe in folding when the going gets tough
For sure, but I think we all have a limit as to how much pain we can take.
I suppose. Certainly we have a limit on how much we can take on our own, I would think. Without someone to lean on I could see someone becoming broken rather easily when faced with true adversity. It all goes back to holding these people up the best that we can, even when they have a hard time doing it themselves. I do think even the worst pain can be temporary, and I do not think throwing away something so precious as your life is a reasonable solution when there are more rational paths to take. I don't think such a thing should be enabled under any circumstances.
Anyway, we may be going in circles here. I understand your viewpoint, just thought I'd toss my own two cents in.
One of my teachers he says to all the girls: If he cheats on a test, he'll cheat on you.
If a person mistreats their own body, how can we expect them to take care of someone else's properly? People freely using drugs, smoking and, alcohol all are putting other people at risk. People on highs can do stupid things and get people killed. Same with alcohol and being drunk. Then there is of course second hand smoke, which makes just hanging around a smoker can make you sick.
I don't think drugs or alcohol is a key to happiness. Relying on a physical substance you have to take to make you happy isn't real happiness. It's what the substances due to your mind. There's always something someone wants to be happy, and they should go for the long-term solutions.
If they aren't thinking straight, doesn't that basically mean it's not them making the decision, and we should stop it? Also, life's like the stock market. It fluctuates. Some crash, but rise back up. Others enjoy a steady increase, and some go downhill. But that doesn't mean it doesn't go up some as well.
I see living as a privilege, in that it can be taken away and never given back. It's kinda like a country club membership card. There are perks, but it's expense, and when it expires you are no longer a member, except with life they are no renewals, just extensions.
Anyway, I foresee an abortion argument coming. I feel it in my bones.
That second statement of yours is absurd. Just because they mistreat their own body doesn't mean they will disregard anybody else's body or property. That's like saying because I'm a gamer that I'll make everyone else be a gamer. Sorry, but I see no logic in that statement.
Well, you can just say 'it doesn't make sense' and not absurd.
Would you trust a druggie watching your siblings (if you have any)? I know I wouldn't.
Alcoholics often hurt their families when drunk, terrible thing that is.
I find that a gamer isn't forced to play, but the druggies and alcoholics are. They have an addiction that takes time to stop if they start and continue on. Plus, making everyone else a gamer and causing pain to other people are totally different, and I don't see a correlation with your example.
Gaming addiction exists as well. The correlation with my example is that in both cases, the person is doing the same to others that they are doing to themselves. The thoughts "I don't care about my own body" and "I don't care about other people's bodies" are from the same type of thinking. They just apply to different people.
Well really it would depend for me it would depend on how the drugs or alcohol were affecting the person. For example, a small consumption of alcohol is not gonna make you attack people. Why would a small consumption of a drug? I would make my decision based on how mentally stable and how rationally thinking the person is. I think there can be a healthy balance.
EDIT: Also, I apologize for my wording of that statement. I only used that to illustrate my confusion at how you came to that idea. I didn't mean any offence by it.
Anyway, I think there's another more on topic thing that I wanna discuss. Is it better to be physically fit and able or mentally healthy.
I go with mental health, because you could be 100% physically healthy and still be depressed. But you can be out of shape and still find happiness.
If you haven't lived my life.
Don't judge.
Click here
Amen to that. I'm sick of people telling me how I'm supposed to feel.
Some people enjoy alcohol, cigarettes, and/or drugs.There's a difference between enjoying alcohol and abusing alcohol. I'm not claiming to being in the former category, but there are plenty of people like that. There's a point at which those things can certainly overtake your life, and that's a problem, but for others, it's something they enjoy, and if they're aware it may shorten their lives but still think that's a better - same with video games (though they don't go in your body). My point is, you can't be 100% healthy and 100% productive 100% of the time. Sometimes you need to sit back and do something you like to decompress, whether that is video games or the occassional booze/bud, you'll be a lot happier for it. Not to mention constantly overstressing yourself is probably worse for your health than any of those.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXFUaqMl3fc
When you see people blown to bits, just pieces everywhere like confetti, blowing in the desert wind.
you are never the same. Laughing at Quagmire in family guy, isn't as funny anymore.
Honestly, I think it's incredibly selfish to purposely check out of life early, or to knowingly shorten your life by abusing drugs and alcohol. To think about how many people there are who never made it out of their adolescent years due to freak accidents, how many people there are who sacrificed their life for the greater good even though they had plans for later on in life, those who died due to terminal illnesses that were beyond their control but fought until the very end, the people that were maliciously and unjustly murdered by the disgusting scum of the world, all those people who never even made it out of the womb..suicide is just such an ungrateful cop out, regardless of how many problems you're having in life currently. Not to mention there are people that love you who will be forced to live on with the thought that a person they held dear to their heart couldn't take it anymore and opted out for suicide. Suicide doesn't take away the pain, it brings more pain. Your pain will just be transferred to all the loved ones you left behind. Stick it out, life is a gift that should be cherished above all things.Things may seem bleak, and life just doesn't seem worth it sometimes, but it really does get better with time.Take care of your body, see to your emotional well being, and appreciate your good health every day, for many aren't as lucky as we are. If you aren't happy with where you are in life, then make a change. We have the power to change the course of our lives, it's all a matter of if you have the motivation and determination to try.
For the drugs part, I don't think society should allow people to use them just because it makes them happy (apart from more harmless drugs like marijuana). I had a cousin (Note: had) who was addicted to heroin, and he would steal from friends, family, and even rob houses to support his habit. He'd get violently angry when he was off his high. I went to an outpatient center where I met a lot of teens who were suffering from drug abuse, and the stories were similar. It seriously does affect other people. How many people have been killed from drug deals gone wrong, overdosing, rival sellers, ect?
Did he die from the drugs? If it's okay to ask of course.
Heroin and some other things led him to hang himself.
Damn, sorry for your loss.
Well my point has been lost on others. I'm out.
Just because they don't agree doesn't mean they don't understand you.
I just can't take some of these "suicide is selfish" arguments.
Sorry, it's been a shit night for me. I should probably get off the forum for a few hours.
Well, to be fair I can't take some of those "Suicide is okay" comments.
You might want to take the night off, does some good. This place can be stressing and you never want to say anything you regret, I hope your night gets better.
I don't think it has been. We understand the fact that you're saying that if someone is truly suffering they should be able to end their own life. Some of us simply disagree with that.
I'll be better when I'm in front of my Xbox later on.
By the way, I was referring to last night (it's morning over here now)
I get that, video games are calming...For me at least. :P
Good morning then.
Thanks. I got Saints Row 2 downloaded on Steam, so I'm gonna try it out today.
SR2=Best SR
Damn right. Loved it on the 360.
Hey, if ýou wanna discuss games you can PM me. Let's try not to derail another thread