How do you feel about abortion?
I personally do not, and will never support it.
The way I see it, it's the same as murdering a child that's already born.
Also I feel it's completely selfish.
If a man and woman choose not to use protection, and the woman gets pregnant, then that's the way it is.
For a woman to abort her child, just because she doesn't want to be burdened with the kid, is wrong.
Instead, and this applies to both men and women, be adults and face your responsibility, that you created.
And in the case of rape, this is my thought.
Yes, rape is a horrible crime, no two-ways about it!
And I can understand a woman dreading giving birth to a child that was the result of such a horrid act.
And my heart goes out to anyone who has been a victim of such a crime.
But, by aborting the child, she is in-effect punishing it for what it's "father" did.
Why should the child have to pay such a price, especially when it's only crime is that it's growing inside it's mother's womb, like all babies do before they're born?
In my honest opinion, what the mother should do, is take this bad situation, and turn it into something good.
Yes life dealt her a tragic blow, but that doesn't mean she needs to add insult to injury.
Plus that child, when it's born, has the ability to grow up and become someone she could be very proud of someday.
Why should she deprive herself of that possibility, as well as deprive that child of life, all because it's "father" was a piece of shit?
So why should that little one pay because either no one wants to face their responsibility as a parent, or because of something someone else did?
Again, I don't support abortion, and I never will.
What are your thoughts?
Comments
Why would you post this in the Walking Dead discussions?
He's done it multiple times before, I have no clue why he does it.
Strongly against it, it's not the babies fault the parents were too dumb to take precautions and use protection. Now in the case of if the woman was raped then I am ok with it.
I think there should be a new subsection; general chat and "let's ask questions about controversial political/religious questions."
I'm honestly pretty conflicted. First off, rape, incest, and life of the mother are no brainers for me. I don't buy the whole 'choosing what to do with your body,' argument because it's not like there are no events preceding pregnancy. However, in the case of rape, it wasn't her choice in the first place, and you can't hold somebody responsible for something they had no control over.
The first time I voted there was a ballot measure which would require parental notification if a minor were to get an abortion - I voted in favor of parental notifcation, and as I thought about it, I would vote for notification, but not for parental consent. I don't think a parent can say to their daughter 'you have to have this baby.'
The obvious extension? - Why then should the state be allowed to do the same? That's especially the case when the welfare state is completely insufficient in helping the mother raise the child or, in the case of adoption, raising the child itself. Ultimately, far more important than whether or not abortion should be illegal is the economic conditions which make raising a child so difficult. Personally, I would advocate for having the baby and, if needbe, giving it up for adoption, but the way things are I'd have a hell of a time trying to mandate that through legislation.
As George Carlin said "These pro-lifers will do anything for the unborn, but once you're born, you're own your own." It's that fundamental hypocrisy I have a problem with. I hate to quote Chris Christie, but even a broken clock is right twice a day: You can’t just afford to be pro-life when a human being is in the womb. You have to be pro-life after." (He's referring to drug policy, but it applies here as well).
I think it should be up to the parents (both of them together) but it should take some thought before they make a decision. Also in cases where the child will have serious problems or have major health problems for the mother it seems like it should be an option. If the parents dont want the child it will grow up feeling that or shipped off for adoption waiting adoptive parents that will never appear. Still abortion shouldnt ever be taken likely and unplanned births should be avoided as it is easy to do a this point.
I say the parents should decide what to do with the child.
If it's rape, yes. If not, no.
I think the parents should avoid situations where they could have a baby when they don't to have one. But I feel like abortion is necessary sometimes, for example in case of rape, there I feel like the woman should always have that option, or when the baby has a serious disease which can't be cured and is in pain.
Last time I checked, this is the TT talk area.
And for one thing, it gives us something to discuss.
Honestly, how long can people honestly talk about TWD, before it grows old?
Not to mention, mind-numbing!
Second, others have posted controversial topics on here in the past.
Mostly notably ones that discuss homosexuality.
Anyway the point is, if they have the right to post that kind of topic on here, than I don't see why I shouldn't have the right to post a thread about a controversial subject as well?
Being sure to do so tactfully of course.
It was in the walking dead section originally like that pets one was a few days ago, thats all people are saying just put it in the right section
I never said you can't post about controversial topics, I'm just saying you shouldn't post this in the wrong places. Because this was originally in the walking dead discussions.
I'm against it, but not fully with rape situations because the woman had no control over what happened. But when man and woman decide to 'have some fun' and then she does abortion is stupid IMO because she was supposed to think about what could happen. I don't understand people defending it with "it's woman's body". It's not the baby's fault.
I think if it's rape then she should definitely be able to get an abortion if she wants.
If a woman was raped and became pregnant I wouldnt have a problem with them wanting an abortion
It's the mother's choice 100%. If she doesn't want to raise a child, I think it's ridiculous to force her, especially if she was raped.
There is no consensus on if a fetus is a living person or not. There is no refuting a pregnant woman is a living person.
Of course you do. You're not the one who has to do it. Circumstances and subjective reasoning will be a natural part of human existence forever.
And if a man blows himself up in a train station that's just the way it is. There are a lot of things that just are, and a lot of things that can change afterwards.
They are, by either having the child and caring for it, or by having an abortion. Both are facing the outcome of their actions, whether you feel the one is "okay" or "morally justifiable" or not.
I, personally, do not like abortion. If I got a woman pregnant I would want to have the child, and I would dearly hope she would want the same. I believe that abortion should have a strict deadline. I don't believe, however, that everyone should be expected to do the same thing.
I cannot even begin to imagine forcing a woman to give birth to a child that she doesn't want, never planned to have, and never conceived of her own accord. That's fucking horrendous. The child is not being punished, that child does not exist, that thing inside the womb is a collection of cells. Nothing more. "You're 13 years old, but you're going to have a child because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, even after you've already been through such an extremely traumatizing event!" You talk about adding insult to injury, but you're trying to add more forced injury to forced injury. That would be inexcusable. It could grow up to be something she is proud of, or it could grow up to be a mass murderer, or (more likely that it being a mass murderer) it could grow up to something she should be proud of, but instead the only thing she sees when she looks at it is everything that led up to that child being seeded in her womb and the pain and psychological trauma that the rape, the birth, and the after effects of it all, caused her, her family, her friends, and her life.
The only thing I care about is the pregnant person. I don't care about the fetus, I don't care how they got pregnant, I don't give a single shit. If a woman wants an abortion, she should be allowed one. I am extremely against forcing anyone who does not want to be pregnant to remain pregnant, it just makes me utterly disgusted to ever think of it. That is a choice only the pregnant person should get to make, and nobody else.
Also, this thread is going to south really quickly.
I'd leave it up to the parents or mother(if it was rape) to decide what to do. It is their child and if that's what they want to do then I can't stop them. I disagree with abortion because the fetus did nothing, it didn't ask to be born. Abortion is pretty much killing, and I dislike killing so I would dis encourage abortion, but it's not my choice to make.
I see flamewars coming...
All joking aside, I support abortion. I won't call a fetus a child until it's capable of conscious thought and feelings. Until that point, I don't consider it alive until that point, which certainly is not immediately after conception.
My second point is that simply giving birth can be expensive, and unless the state or government is willing to support a couple then they should not be forced to pay money they don't have.
My third point is that having a child is agony for women, and I think it's just wrong to make a woman go through the pain of childbirth simply for a mistake. That's like telling schools to use the cane ägain.
Here's 10 facts about abortions:
According to the law in many countries, a person who harms a pregnant women and thereby causes the death of the fetus, is accused of committing murder (see fetal homicide), unless it is an abortion.
Fetal surgery is performed on embryos in order to save their lives, while others' lives are legally taken.
Embryos are often able to survive on their own starting the 23rd \ 24th week of their lives inside the womb, but abortion after 24 weeks of pregnancy is legal.
Traits and emotions of a person are not related to his/her physical size, as we know the differences between a week-old baby and a 6-year old boy.
Scientifically, embryos in their mother's womb are human in every way, by virtue of their genomes.
Ultrasounds have shown that an embryo can suck his thumb starting the age of 8 weeks, react to physical contact and respond to sounds, already has all existing organs, the brain thinks, the heart beats, the liver produces blood cells, kidneys clear fluid and already has a fingerprint. Most abortions are performed after the eighth week.
Justice states that during conflict, the side which causes the least amount of damage has more decency. Giving birth to a child and delivering it for adoption is more decent than killing it.
Justice states that when two parties cause pain or discomfort to each other, the one with greater responsibility has the obligation to carry on most of the discomfort \ pain for the other side.
The used, the unable and the victim needs special protection, especially when they are unable to express themselves.
There are organizations, associations and people that can meet with every need, help, support and give hope to mothers and their children. Also, there are a lot of couples who can not, but want to be parents and are eager for a moment that they can adopt one!
The film "Apocalypto" describes a pagan ritual of the Mayan people, in which people are sacrificed on the altar. The film brutally represents what happened in godforsaken Mesoamerica.
The Mayans lived in a circle of endless wars, not a political struggle, but a religious one, to take captives and sacrifice them to their idols. On the day that the great priests decided it was time to be reconciled in front of the idols, they would paint in blue the bodies of prisoners and victims, and tie for everyone to see on the altar on the pyramid's vertex. The priest would tear the chest of the victim with a sharp blade and pull out the heart of the man sacrificed, alive and throbbing. The climax was when the priest took a bite out of the pumping organ in order to win the mystical life force in the heart of the sacrificed.
The description is shocking and incomprehensible, therefore it is surprising and unexpected that the people of Israel took part in the sacred ritual of this type all the same:
"For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. "They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.…"
God went against the children of Judah that burned their sons, in Gay-Ben-Hinnom (which is a name of the place that inspired the Hebrew version of the word "Hell" - "Gayhinnom"). The children of Israel went astray and worked the Moloch, God of Ammonites. They held rituals for him. Brothels and priestesses were actually prostitutes called "saints" by the Ammonite worship. Moloch was responsible for the economic prosperity and fertility of the earth. The inhabitants of Jerusalem who cared about their economic prosperity went to his temples and had sex with the prostitutes, and the boys born to them were sacrificed.
Moloch's statue was placed on a platform in Gay-Ben-Hinnom, which is located south of the city of Jerusalem, near the walls of the City of David. The statue was made of copper and was hollow, with his arms out in front, looking humble, and the horns on his head, mouth and fingertips were open pipes which coal was inserted into. When a baby was born to one of those prostitutes, the ceremony began by igniting the embers inside the statue whilst people were drumming in the background, anxiously waiting for the statue to turn purple-red and see fire coming out of the burning holes. The prostitutes then marched towards Moloch, holding their infants and put it in the hands of Moloch until it was completely burned.
So why did I just tell you this?
The shocking fact is that human sacrifices are still made today in Israel (and all around the world), when every 14 minutes a baby's right to live is taken for "higher causes" such as self-fulfillment and prosperity. The name was just changed from "sacrifice" to "abortion", and the doctors don't burn the baby on the altar but scrape his flesh with a small trowel and then suck out the baby's remains.
And there is no doubt that these are harsh words; But what is the difference between a baby sacrificed on the altar to allegedly give economic prosperity a week or month after his birth, and the baby executed in a sterile clinic so the mother can "manifest herself" a week or months before his birth?
Lack of means is no excuse to prevent life, nor is the fact that the mother will have to suffer bearing the child, because the joy of life taken from the child is much more valuable than 9 months of suffering, it might be hard to hear, but it's true.
By the way, here's a couple of names you will surely recognize, their parents had testimonied they almost aborted them for various reasons, but changed their mind in the end:
Andrea Bocelli.
Faith Hill.
John Lennon.
Leo Tolstoy.
Nelson Mandela.
President Gerald Ford.
President Bill Clinton.
Sarah McLachlan.
Steve Jobs.
Justin Bieber.
Now imagine the world without them (I know that a world without Justin Bieber would be for the betterment of all, but let's just ignore that one for the sake of the others).
I want to believe you're right, but then why so many orphans?
I don't know if all orphan children can find a home, but most couples who abort their baby don't even look for foster parents to give the child to, there are married couples who look for children to raise.
That is a good point though, I don't know the ratio between orphans and married couples who can't make a child of their own
Thank you ^-^
I was actually discussing this subject with a person very close to me and said the same thing, it is a good argument but not a very stale one, it's kind of two-sided for the reason that a person could also cause a lot of destruction in the world (Example: Hitler being aborted).
But again, we are not God and cannot decide a human's fate before it is born, and we certainly can't know what good or bad would come out of it, so we are morally obliged to endure the pregnancy, even if that sounds horrible, it is less horrible than taking human life.
I just did a quick google search, and haven't had a chance to run all through this (honestly it's not a topic I know much about) but:
"In the U.S. 397,122 children are living without permanent families in the foster care system. 101,666 of these children are eligible for adoption, but nearly 32% of these children will wait over three years in foster care before being adopted."
"No child under three years of age should be placed in institutional care without a parent or primary caregiver, according to research from 32 European countries, including nine in-depth country studies, which considered the “risk of harm in terms of attachment disorder, developmental delay and neural atrophy in the developing brain." - Of course, this also means that if adoption is readily available, the child can receive a primary caregiver.
"In 2012, 23,396 youth aged out of the U.S. foster care system without the emotional and financial support necessary to succeed. Nearly 40% had been homeless or couch surfed, nearly 60% of young men had been convicted of a crime, and only 48% were employed. 75% of women and 33% of men receive government benefits to meet basic needs. 50% of all youth who aged out were involved in substance use and 17% of the females were pregnant."
http://www.ccainstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=25&Itemid=43
Every day 5,760 more children become orphans
Approximately 250,000 children are adopted annually, but…
Each year 14, 505, 000 children grow up as orphans and age out of the system by age sixteen
Each day 38,493 orphans age out
Every 2.2 seconds another orphan ages out with no family to belong to and no place to call home
Studies have shown that 10% – 15% of these children commit suicide before they reach age eighteen
These studies also show that 60% of the girls become prostitutes and 70% of the boys become hardened criminals
http://www.orphanhopeintl.org/facts-statistics/ (Sorry, I just noted those are whole world statistics, not just the US or OECD or something)
I'm not saying these children should have been born or that abortion is better, personally, I think the hope of a good life takes priority over certain non-existence; but there are a lot of cases where it doesn't work for the better.
Well, there are people who were taken into foster care (not a majority, but we can't just predict who will grow alright and who won't) and live their life just fine by now, I think that we still can't allow people to destroy humans before they have a voice to decide if they want to live or die.
While what you posted might be a very cold reality, it still doesn't justify the killing of those people, because we can't possibly know their desires and what they will make of their life.
Also take note that this is only the US, I don't know how things work in other places, but it might be better (I hope at least).
I have to say, most Americans have gone completely mental when it comes to abortion, there's no room for debate anymore. If you think it should be legal, right wingers will say you're a horrible baby-killer (and some will actively try to kill you... because, you know, pro-life), and if you're against legal abortion, liberals will accuse you of being a Christian zealot who hates women and thinks they only belong making babies and sandwiches.
LOL, I agree on that.
See, even though my opinion is pretty extreme, I'm not keen to forcing it onto everyone (even though I'm still conflicted if it shouldn't be legal as long as the baby can be born healthy and the mother will not die from it), because in the end it's their right to choose, I'm just trying to explain why it would be completely wrong to do it, not force people to make them have a baby.
If one really wants his fetus dead they can do it without a clinic to kill it for them.
I'm 100% fine with the woman wanting to get an abortion and getting it.
Let's be honest here, it's not Pro-Life and Pro-Choice...It's Pro-Birth and Pro-Choice. If you accidently get preggers from rape or make a mistake and you cant raise a child then it's better to abort an unborn fetus which doesn't have a devolved brain and doesn't know what's going on then have a baby be born and be left to have a shit life or even be left to die by the mother. When you abort you aren't murdering a child.
Why not give it away to adoption then? There are people who want to have a baby and you just kill yours off instead of letting them raise it?
At least that way the baby gets to make their own choices, and take their own life if they feel like they shouldn't be alive.
When you abort you're murdering a human being, ever heard of fetal homicide?
Good morning Awesomeo!
Why should you force a woman to go through pregnancy and labor for something they don't want. If it's rape then the baby you have for a while will keep reminding you of it.
The baby doesn't exist yet, it's a fetus, it's not a human, it's not homicide.
Because the other option is taking away a human's right to live. Read what I said about it.
A fetus is a human being, by virtue of their genome.
It's not a right. There's an unborn group of DNA and then there's a living grown person who can make their own choices.
A fetus is not a human...When it's born it is, then it's a baby.
A fetus is human, and if you're going to deny that then you're just creating illusions for yourself to live in.
https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood#Biological_markers
http://bdfund.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/wi_whitepaper_life_print.pdf
You take a human's right to live their life and possibly even save yours, no matter how you look at it, killing a fetus is killing a human being, because without your intervention it would be born and live.
If you can't back up that statement with anything but your own words, I'll have to declare it's false.
And it's wrong to take away the baby's right to choose to keep his own life.
An entire lifetime > 9 months of hardship
A fetus isn't a human and if you believe it is then you can live in an illusion yourself.
It's not murder but believe what you want, I don't give a shit. However it's wrong to take away the woman's right to choose to keep something like a baby she doesn't want and I desperately hope people don't make abortion illegal to appease something that isn't alive instead of the living human.
If you can't back up that statement with anything but your own words, I'll have to declare it's false.
And it's wrong to take away the baby's right to choose to keep his own life.
An entire lifetime is worth more than 9 months of hardship, you don't have to be a genius to figure out that a human's entire existence shouldn't be wiped out just because there's a temporary suffering period for someone.
K.
Fetus and the Fetus doesn't have a brain so it shouldn't and doesn't have a choice.
You act like after it's born it's life will be happy as can be. You aren't pro-life, you're pro-birth.
An entire life of pain, sorrow, and regret with a parent that doesn't love you if they even decide to keep you < A quick and easy solution from a mistake
Ultrasounds show that an embryo can suck his thumb starting the age of 8 weeks, react to physical contact and respond to sounds, already has all existing organs, the brain functions, the heart beats, the liver produces blood cells, kidneys clear fluid and already has a fingerprint. Almost all abortions are performed after the eighth week.
You don't know what will the fetus turn out to be, there are too many fetuses that survive abortions and live a happy life now, as well as orphans.
Just because it's a mistake does not mean the baby deserves to get his life taken away, and if the parents can't deal with a baby, they can send it for adoption. But they do not have the right to kill it.
Still just a fetus, not a human.
You don't either.
You don't understand that they shouldn't be forced to deal with a little parasite feeding off of them, a fetus is a parasite if you don't want it. If you were a woman and you got raped, would you seriously go through so much pain as a constant reminder of an already horrible experience?