Indeed, and if someone can't separate their opinions from the course of action they will take and think practically, and instead force their opinion on others through violence (verbal or physical) - I won't respect them.
If they can maintain balance and harmony between thought and action - I will respect them.
Again, when I say "respect" I don't mean "agree", I just won't aggressively try to force my own on them, therefore respecting them to let them have the freedom to think whatever the fuck they want to think, as long as it stays in their head that is.
Actions are based on opinions. People are free to have their desired opinions and ideas, as long as it doesn't harm those around them; but as I said, Harmful opinions can lead to harmful actions that affect the others.
if it's not legal people will do it just in less sanitary and safe ways that may end up putting them in danger
Yeah... But it's still their choice, legal or illegal, it's murder. If they want to kill their own child because it's hard to take care of one they should at least have the guts to look them in the eyes before doing it, most won't be able to do that, because most are hypocrites - if they don't see it happen and let a doctor do it for them in a legal clinic, it will just give them the feeling that it's justified.
Either way, forcing them or not, abortion will still be the wrong thing to do if you respect human life, anyone who will understand that and still want to go through it is just in for murder of the incapable to object, because life begins at conception and ending the baby's life after that is murder - whether it's slicing the baby inside her womb and sucking it out like a piece of trash or taking abortion pills. That's what I think people need to know, and if most people will understand that, abortion on its own will not be looked upon as the right thing to do as long as the consequences of the birth won't result in the mother dying, because it's their life first, and your 9 months of hell second.
And yeah of course people want to live, but those people they are exceptional people most aren't like them, sure it isn't fair to negate them of a chance but that decision is not up to them and what are you going to do?
I don't think most people would just give up on life in her position, and even if they were to, we could never know who will be the person you're carrying, they might want to live and they might not, but we are obligated to give them the right to choose! They are weaker than us, justice forces the side who is stronger (the parent in this case) to bear most of the distress to defend the rights of the weaker (the baby in this case).
The decision is up to them, since their life is at stake here, not anyone else's. They have the right to be born!
I don't know if forcing childbirth is the right thing to do, but let me tell you this; Abortion is still wrong, to take the gift of life from someone unable to voice their own opinion about it is sickening.
Like I said it's unfair but that's the way life is, giving up may not be the correct choice but I'm not going to judge someone for it and be… moresides even if it's not legal people will do it just in less sanitary and safe ways that may end up putting them in danger, so whatever there's no point in outlawing better to do it legally and make sure it's done in a safe way than the alternative.
And yeah of course people want to live, but those people they are exceptional people most aren't like them, sure it isn't fair to negate them of a chance but that decision is not up to them and what are you going to do?
You can't simply force someone to carry their unborn and unwanted baby for nine months, life isn't fair but it's also not black and white either.
Sorry that I consider my life and my future to be more important than a blob of cells (if, of course, I had the abortion early on). I'm the actual human being here right now, not the potential of life I'd be carrying. I'd have to devote my life to taking care of the child, and at this stage of my life, I am not mature enough or financially stable enough to do that. Maybe I don't want to be 17 and undergo the incredibly painful process of child birth against my will when I can't even vote yet. Maybe taking in the fact that I suffer from mental illness and how bringing a child into the world when I'm not ready yet would impact my emotional health. And adopting would only strengthen that, having to go through life feeling guilty that I couldn't be a mother to my child.
It seems like most people on the "pro-life" side are actually just "pro-birth". Do you care what happens afterword, what environment this child might be born into? It's the same people who fight for lives being brought into this world who don't care what happens afterwords. The exact same people who deny them welfare or look down at them for buying food stamps. If most of this energy to fight abortion went into improving the lives of those who were actually born into these situations, the world would be a much better place.
And imagine all the guys fapping right now to porn, all that potential life being thrown away into a Kleenex. No one spares a second thought about that.
But it isn't all about the mother in the case of an abortion. She isn't the only one being impacted. Why does the argument of "it's my body,… more so I can do whatever I want", completely ignore the actual life in question (that being the life of the child)? It's honestly a completely invalid excuse.
I don't know anyone "proud" to get an abortion, only proud to have the ability to make that choice themselves and not be forced to do otherwise. I knew some girls whose contraception either failed or were raped that got abortions and they didn't just say "whoopdy-doo I just got an abortion!". They cried about it for weeks and it was a very heavy decision to make for some of them.
It seems like you interpreted my post as me being like that if I had to go through an abortion. I'm not sure where you got that from exactly (maybe the picture I posted?) but while I would definitely go for an abortion under the circumstances I mentioned, I wouldn't go into it lightly and I would guarantee you it would leave it's own emotional scars.
Hey, if that's your choice. More power to you I suppose.
Although, I must say, flaunting something like abortion like it's something to b… moree proud of is a bit misguided. Women shouldn't be proud of having several abortions in a year just like anyone shouldn't be proud of being in several failed relationships within a year. But, that's the society we live in now I suppose.
If for anything, a women being brave and giving thought into abortion should be something to respect. Not someone that exclaims "back the fuck up, I got another abortion today motherfucker." There's a middle ground; tolerance for things we can't understand and remaining respectful for a woman that decided abortion was the better route and then having lots of unprotected sex and just flushing the egg out because you're personally irresponsible.
Again, if that's you're viewpoint, I respect that cause I'm not nor ever will be a woman. But hubris shouldn't apply for such … [view original content]
If a woman has unprotected sex with a man, and gets pregnant as a result, that's her problem.
Not everyone has easy access to contraception, and not everyone receives proper sex education to know what will get you pregnant and what won't.
And I personally am not gonna feel sorry for them, as they put themselves in that situation to begin with.
That's pretty horrible.
And it's inhuman for the woman to take away that child's life, all because "she's not ready to be a mom." Or because, " it's an inconvenient time for her to be pregnant." It's downright cowardly on her part.
It's not a fucking game where there are "cowards", I'm a young girl and I get to be terrified at what my body will go through and the aftermath of it. This isn't a drinking game with your buddies doing dares or something, this is my life and a woman is not a coward for not wanting to bring a life into a bad situation or go through motherhood when she isn't mentally (or even physically, for young girls who are raped) ready.
If people are not ready for the possibility of parenthood, they should do either one-of-two things, and it's not rocket-science, it's actually very simple. Either use a condom each and everytime before sexual activities.
Yes, because condoms are guaranteed to work every time, and everyone knows how to properly prevent pregnancy! Of course!
Or, do not have sex, PERIOD!
Humans have hormones. We have sex. Deal with it.
Now you brought up the subject, about the possibility of the woman dying in childbirth. Well, frankly, that still doesn't make having an abortion right. Life's not all about doing whatever it takes to survive to another day. Sometimes you gotta make a stand, no matter what the cost.
This, frankly, is so disgusting I didn't even want to respond to it especially since AGenesis made a good reply. There are complications in many pregnancies, and the mother has to die just to deliver the baby? And often times this will kill both lives, making the "sacrifice" worthless. I can only imagine your logic applied to middle-eastern 12 year-old child brides who are raped by their husbands and die during labor.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Children are precious, no matter how they're born.
They're not throw away items, they're people.
As I said… more in a previous comment, If a woman has unprotected sex with a man, and gets pregnant as a result, that's her problem.
Nobody made her do that, that's what she chose to do, and the same thing is true of the man who had sex with her.
And I personally am not gonna feel sorry for them, as they put themselves in that situation to begin with.
And it's inhuman for the woman to take away that child's life, all because "she's not ready to be a mom."
Or because, " it's an inconvenient time for her to be pregnant."
It's downright cowardly on her part.
And it's also cowardly on the father's part to support her in such an endeavor, cause really all he'd be doing is using it to get out of the responsibility he helped to create.
If people are not ready for the possibility of parenthood, they should do either … [view original content]
Not just a blob of cells, it has been said over and over again that it's a human life the moment the egg cell is fertilized. (to be more precise, life begins at the moment of totipotency, which occurs during fertilization.) A zygote, which is a human life in the earliest stage of development is not just like any other blob of cells. This is a scientific fact, so this unoriginal comparison is baseless. If you think you're too young to deal with having a child then don't have sex. Excluding rape cases, no one is coercing you to have sex, the decision is all yours. There are always going to be consequences that come with having sex, and you have to be mature enough to deal with them and take responsibility. Just as when you learn to drive a car, you have to accept the possible consequences that come with driving a car, such as getting into an accident or getting a ticket. If you get pregnant and don't have the maturity or the means to take care of the child, then that's what adoption is for. It's also been said numerous times that you don't have to raise the child if you don't want to, nobody is forcing you to. Give the baby to someone who will give them the love and care they deserve. It's a very simple solution.There are plenty of infertile couples who would do anything to have a child. Why would you feel guilty about giving your child up so they can at least have a chance to live a happy life? Are you seriously implying that you'd feel less guilty about murdering your own baby?
No, we just think that every person deserves to live out their life the way they choose to, not have it selfishly stolen from them when they're in their most vulnerable and defenseless state. It is selfish and immoral to kill an innocent unborn child who doesn't even have the means to protect themselves. The rest of that part of your post is impertinent to this debate, seeing as we're arguing whether or not aborting an unborn baby is at all justifiable (it's not) but I'll respond anyway. Life is hard for us all, but at least we're alive.
all that potential life being thrown away into a Kleenex. No one spares a second thought about that.
The keyword is "potential". There is an enormous difference between an embryo and sperm/unfertilized egg cells. One is already a human life, the other is just cells that have the potential to become a human life under specific circumstances. Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during the process known as fertilization. It is when the two sets of male and female DNA (aka sperm and egg) combine does a new life form. At first it's only one cell (zygote), but it is an entirely new organism; by definition a separate human life. To explain that more in depth, Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being. I know it sounds convoluted, but it really isn't that difficult to grasp.
Fertilized egg cell= a human life.
Unfertilized egg cell= not a human life.
Combined egg and sperm= a human life
Separate egg and sperm= not a human life
Abortion= killing a human life
Masturbation= not killing a human life
Everything I just stated is proven scientific fact. You cannot dispute it. Also, when a guy jerks off they aren't disposing of potential human lives, they're just disposing of sperm. The sperm needs to be in the near vicinity of an egg cell in order to have the potential to become a human life. So with that said, obviously we care more about the human life in the early stages of development than the sperm and unfertilized egg cells. Why? Because, for the umpteenth time, it's a human life, not an ordinary clump of cells. So please refrain from trying to rewrite science in order to justify abortion. It's absolutely ridiculous that so many of you keep saying that the two are interchangeable, when they're evidently not.
Sorry that I consider my life and my future to be more important than a blob of cells (if, of course, I had the abortion early on). I'm the … moreactual human being here right now, not the potential of life I'd be carrying. I'd have to devote my life to taking care of the child, and at this stage of my life, I am not mature enough or financially stable enough to do that. Maybe I don't want to be 17 and undergo the incredibly painful process of child birth against my will when I can't even vote yet. Maybe taking in the fact that I suffer from mental illness and how bringing a child into the world when I'm not ready yet would impact my emotional health. And adopting would only strengthen that, having to go through life feeling guilty that I couldn't be a mother to my child.
It seems like most people on the "pro-life" side are actually just "pro-birth". Do you care what happens afterword, what environment this child might be born into? It's the sam… [view original content]
Look up the name "Dr. Bernard Nathanson" and read some of the things he said, might give you some insight on the topic from someone who actu… moreally knew about it more than most people (being responsible for an estimated amount of 75 thousand aborted babies I can confidently say that he was an expert).
Of course sex isn't a game.
Why do you think I stated, "Either use a condom each and everytime before sexual activity, or don't have sex?"
And admittedly I should've added using proper birth control.
Sex is not a game.
And that's why, quite frankly, those who are NOT WILLING to be responsible, have no business having sex.
And yes, people are cowards when they abort their child, all because they don't wanna face the consequences for sleeping around and not using protection and birth control.
It's really no different when someone abandons their child in a dumpster somewhere.
"And I personally am not gonna feel sorry for them, as they put themself in that situation."
I realize that's a pretty strong thing to say.
But think about this, would you feel sorry for someone who gets caught in the act of stealing a car, and gets sent to jail for it?
After all, they knew it was wrong to steal, but they deliberately went and did it anyway.
So why should you feel sorry that they are now suffering the consequences of their foolish choice?
So the same goes for someone who has unprotected sex with someone, knowing full well what it could lead too.
And as far as my last statement, I still stand by it.
I myself was at risk at dying when I was born, and so was my mom.
Nevertheless, my mom and dad were determined to see me born
And despite my having severe health problems as a baby, I've grown up into a very healthy and strong man, who has a truly wonderful life.
And all that would've been taken away from me, if my parents had decided to abort me, because of the risk my being born posed.
As far as I'm concerned, every child should have a chance to live.
So after relating my personal experience, something I was not obligated to do, do you still find my stance disgusting?
If a woman has unprotected sex with a man, and gets pregnant as a result, that's her problem.
Not everyone has easy access to contra… moreception, and not everyone receives proper sex education to know what will get you pregnant and what won't.
And I personally am not gonna feel sorry for them, as they put themselves in that situation to begin with.
That's pretty horrible.
And it's inhuman for the woman to take away that child's life, all because "she's not ready to be a mom." Or because, " it's an inconvenient time for her to be pregnant." It's downright cowardly on her part.
It's not a fucking game where there are "cowards", I'm a young girl and I get to be terrified at what my body will go through and the aftermath of it. This isn't a drinking game with your buddies doing dares or something, this is my life and a woman is not a coward for not wanting to bring a life into a bad situation or go through motherhoo… [view original content]
So you're now saying it's selfish to want to live? How does that even make sense? You might as well say it's selfish for human beings to live life as they see fit. And you still didn't answer my question in regards to what the woman should do if she were in the situation I described. You claim it's selfish to abort a fetus even when the woman's life is in danger, however I could say the same for people believing that every woman must carry a
baby to term no matter what the circumstances are. However, I won't even dwell into that because I know selfishness is, at the very least, a human trait--hell, an animal trait, thus it is human nature for us to be selfish to an extent, especially when it comes to survival.
Still even in the case of rape, for the mother to terminate the life of her unborn child, just to spare herself, wouldn't you say that is still a selfish thing for her to do?
Tinni did a good job addressing all of this already, but I'll give ya a response anyway.
Sorry that I consider my life and my future to be more important than a blob of cells
This is such a cop out, and I don't understand how people supporting pro-choice find any level of legitimacy in the argument. That so called "blob of cells" is indisputably a developing human being. If you were to do nothing, this developing human being would obviously be born. So by you terminating it, you are actively stealing it's life. Calling it a "blob of cells" doesn't change this. Regardless of how you personally want to label it, regardless of you choosing to ignore that it is in fact a living and developing human being, the fact doesn't change that you are destroying human life. So no, there is no level of justification just off of the basis that it's "your body", "your future", ect.
I'd have to devote my life to taking care of the child
No you wouldn't. Obviously you could give the child up for adoption, which would certainly be better than outright killing it.
Maybe I don't want to be 17 and undergo the incredibly painful process of child birth against my will when I can't even vote yet. Maybe taking in the fact that I suffer from mental illness and how bringing a child into the world when I'm not ready yet would impact my emotional health.
I don't understand why everyone on your side of the debate consistently feels the need to detail how hard the situation can be for the mother, as if those supporting pro-life don't understand this. We realize that the situations can be tough, however this doesn't justify making your unborn child pay the ultimate price for either your mistakes or your situation. Such a thing is as selfish as can possibly be in this world. The mother's undesirable situation doesn't inherently justify doing whatever they want to an innocent party to make their own situation better. Again, this is one of the most selfish, outright immoral decisions I can possibly even think of. There is no getting around how incredibly selfish this decision is.
And adopting would only strengthen that, having to go through life feeling guilty that I couldn't be a mother to my child.
You would feel guilty giving your child up for adoption... but you wouldn't feel guilty for not even giving them the chance to live, period? You wouldn't feel guilty about straight up killing them? As I said above, giving them up for adoption beats the alternative of robbing them of their life.
It seems like most people on the "pro-life" side are actually just "pro-birth". Do you care what happens afterword, what environment this child might be born into? It's the same people who fight for lives being brought into this world who don't care what happens afterwords. It's the same people who fight for lives being brought into this world who don't care what happens afterwords. The exact same people who deny them welfare or look down at them for buying food stamps. If most of this energy to fight abortion went into improving the lives of those who were actually born into these situations, the world would be a much better place.
This is totally irrelevant to the debate over whether abortion itself is justifiable or not, so I'm not really going to go into this. People are "pro life" in the sense of giving developing human beings the right to live, and being against their outright murder. Call it whatever you want. Regardless of their situation after birth, the whole point is that they are free to live their lives, however that life may be. It's not up to us to decide their quality of life, it's up to us to protect their right to live at all.
And imagine all the guys fapping right now to porn, all that potential life being thrown away into a Kleenex. No one spares a second thought about that.
They don't spare a second thought about it because the comparison makes no sense at all. What is up with all of the people on this thread throwing this argument around? Tinni already detailed on why this comparison makes no sense, so I'm not going to.
Sorry that I consider my life and my future to be more important than a blob of cells (if, of course, I had the abortion early on). I'm the … moreactual human being here right now, not the potential of life I'd be carrying. I'd have to devote my life to taking care of the child, and at this stage of my life, I am not mature enough or financially stable enough to do that. Maybe I don't want to be 17 and undergo the incredibly painful process of child birth against my will when I can't even vote yet. Maybe taking in the fact that I suffer from mental illness and how bringing a child into the world when I'm not ready yet would impact my emotional health. And adopting would only strengthen that, having to go through life feeling guilty that I couldn't be a mother to my child.
It seems like most people on the "pro-life" side are actually just "pro-birth". Do you care what happens afterword, what environment this child might be born into? It's the sam… [view original content]
Yes. No one forced abortion on your parents, and it's great that they were able to have you. There is no law forcing anyone to abort. But there should be an option for one. How different is your situation from
middle-eastern 12 year-old child brides who are raped by their husbands and die during labor.
?
^Those girls didn't have any choice at all. Your parents picked the choice they wanted, but a girl in the situation described above would be forced into it. I really don't see how one could justify that.
Of course sex isn't a game.
Why do you think I stated, "Either use a condom each and everytime before sexual activity, or don't have sex?"
… more And admittedly I should've added using proper birth control.
Sex is not a game.
And that's why, quite frankly, those who are NOT WILLING to be responsible, have no business having sex.
And yes, people are cowards when they abort their child, all because they don't wanna face the consequences for sleeping around and not using protection and birth control.
It's really no different when someone abandons their child in a dumpster somewhere.
"And I personally am not gonna feel sorry for them, as they put themself in that situation."
I realize that's a pretty strong thing to say.
But think about this, would you feel sorry for someone who gets caught in the act of stealing a car, and gets sent to jail for it?
After all, they knew it was wrong to steal, but they deliberately went and did it anyway.
… [view original content]
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I've had a bit of a busy day.
Oh. Pardon me then. I must have skimmed over your post a bit. I'm sorry for being so quick to label, and thank you for not immediately jumping to insult, and label me.
No worries.
Now, let's say mother in question is completely healthy, and the baby will likely be born without endangering the mother at all. What if the mother can't support the child? Then the child will likely ruin their mothers life, or, end up being put up for adoption. Many children end up not getting adopted at all, which, is really, a very shitty childhood for said person. Plus, they may end up with very, very little money, and economic opportunity for the rest of their life, which is no way to live. Now, a bit of a different scenario the baby is born to a mother who cannot support the child, and ends up keeping the baby, and not putting it up for adoption at all. The mother can barely support the child, but keeps herself, and the child fed, unfortunately for the child, it was born in a household where his/her mother cannot pay for health insurance, can't pay for toys, and the child has no father. And when the mother cannot pay for the child's college, that leaves the child with no economic opportunity, with a boring, depressing childhood, and possibly adulthood. That is just if the child lives in a 1st world country like America, but what if they are born in a horrible place where wars are going on, and they are destined to live their entire lives either fighting, or running and hiding?
If the mother is truly in such a position that she cannot financially support both herself and the child, she should absolutely consider adoption over not giving the child the chance to live, as it is not right for us to make the call on what that particular child will be able to do with his or her own life. This applies to the other scenarios that you listed as well. We can't reasonably decide for the child whether or not their life is worth living. We don't know their fate, unless we take it into our hands to make sure they never get a chance to make anything of themselves within whatever environment they may have otherwise been placed into. How can we justifiably make these decisions for another human being? That simply isn't fair at all. It's better to have lived than not have lived at all. There are many people around the world living in poor conditions that are simply grateful to be alive, and rightfully so, as life is the greatest gift that can possibly be given in the world. It isn't right to decide the worth of another human's life, and it certainly isn't right to kill them based on that personal, subjective viewpoint.
Now, back to the subject of comparing the fetus, to sperm. Just because the sperm squirmed it's way inside of an egg, it is a human?
Yes. That is the start of human development. It may be the lowest stage of a human being, but it is still a human being.
Even if that is so, I really, honestly, see nothing wrong with "Killing" something that is a human, specifically because of the state it is at. It's not even alive, it will feel no pain during the procedure, so there will be no suffering whatsoever, the fetus won't suffer, and the mother won't suffer.
The fetus hasn't been born yet, but it is very much alive. Sure, it wouldn't be conscious of you killing it at all, but that doesn't justify the action of killing it. You're still taking away it's life, which is what this whole debate is about. The idea of it not knowing any better doesn't really have anything to do with it.
Thank you for being civil, even when I wasn't, if you had stooped to my level, it would have changed from a debate, into an argument, and there would have been hurt feelings on both sides.
Again, no worries. I thought I was maybe a bit condescending myself. It's all good.
Oh. Pardon me then. I must have skimmed over your post a bit. I'm sorry for being so quick to label, and thank you for not immediately jumpi… moreng to insult, and label me.
That out of the way, I'd like to return to the topic that was being debated, and apologize for straying off of said topic. Now, let's say mother in question is completely healthy, and the baby will likely be born without endangering the mother at all. What if the mother can't support the child? Then the child will likely ruin their mothers life, or, end up being put up for adoption. Many children end up not getting adopted at all, which, is really, a very shitty childhood for said person. Plus, they may end up with very, very little money, and economic opportunity for the rest of their life, which is no way to live.
Now, a bit of a different scenario the baby is born to a mother who cannot support the child, and ends up keeping the baby, and not putting it up for adoption… [view original content]
As I've said, I respect that. It was indeed the picture that threw me off a bit, and the whole "I got an abortion 'cause I didn't 'feel like' being a mother" was the intent I was following.
And, again, I am not a female. So I can't tell a woman what they should do with their bodies. Even if I'm not keen to what they're doing in the first place.
I don't know anyone "proud" to get an abortion, only proud to have the ability to make that choice themselves and not be forced to do otherw… moreise. I knew some girls whose contraception either failed or were raped that got abortions and they didn't just say "whoopdy-doo I just got an abortion!". They cried about it for weeks and it was a very heavy decision to make for some of them.
It seems like you interpreted my post as me being like that if I had to go through an abortion. I'm not sure where you got that from exactly (maybe the picture I posted?) but while I would definitely go for an abortion under the circumstances I mentioned, I wouldn't go into it lightly and I would guarantee you it would leave it's own emotional scars.
The fetus hasn't been born yet, but it is very much alive. Sure, it wouldn't be conscious of you killing it at all, but that doesn't justify the action of killing it. You're still taking away it's life, which is what this whole debate is about. The idea of it not knowing any better doesn't really have anything to do with it.
((Figured out how to do the quote thing.)) Technically, you are correct, it is the first stage in human development. A sperm is still a living thing however, no matter how small, despite not being inside of an egg. An egg, however, is not a living thing at all. Now, I know I've gone back to the subject of masturbation/use of a condom like, three times, but it since it is a living thing, doing either of those things, is, effectively, making the decision to take the life away from millions of sperm. Yes, only one of those sperm would have eventually become a baby, but still you are taking the life away from that one as well.
That all said, I think if there's nothing morally wrong with masturbating/using a condom, then there really is nothing at all wrong with aborting a fetus, especially at it's earliest stage.
So, Masturbation isn't genocide, but it is still murder, with that reasoning, if one of those sperms could have potentially become a human.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I've had a bit of a busy day.
Oh. Pardon me then. I must have skimmed over your post a bit. I'm sor… morery for being so quick to label, and thank you for not immediately jumping to insult, and label me.
No worries.
Now, let's say mother in question is completely healthy, and the baby will likely be born without endangering the mother at all. What if the mother can't support the child? Then the child will likely ruin their mothers life, or, end up being put up for adoption. Many children end up not getting adopted at all, which, is really, a very shitty childhood for said person. Plus, they may end up with very, very little money, and economic opportunity for the rest of their life, which is no way to live. Now, a bit of a different scenario the baby is born to a mother who cannot support the child, and ends up keeping the baby, and not putting it up for adoption at all. The mother can barely s… [view original content]
But I do know a stance where the child had to be aborted to safe the mother's life.
See, they did some kind of test to see if he'd have Down's syndrome, and the thing they did to her risked their life in some odd way (it's super rare and only might occur if you have that test), it infected them with something and they said that if she wouldn't abort the baby, they would both die.
That's the only instance where abortion is alright, when the life in question isn't just the baby's, then it is ok.
No. Are we, as humans, not built to want to survive? Because think of it this way: If you were to deny a pregnant rape victim the right to a… morebort the child even if childbirth would kill her, how is that not murder? You are asking someone to die for someone else. She didn't get a choice. It's like forcing someone to go to war for their country. Why can't they have any right to not risk their life?
I am not using it to justify all abortions, only those that are done when the woman had no say in carrying the child. If you believe I was doing what you say, please point out how I was doing so.
But I do know a stance where the child had to be aborted to safe the mother's life.
See, they did some kind of test to see if he'd have D… moreown's syndrome, and the thing they did to her risked their life in some odd way (it's super rare and only might occur if you have that test), it infected them with something and they said that if she wouldn't abort the baby, they would both die.
That's the only instance where abortion is alright, when the life in question isn't just the baby's, then it is ok.
You're mixing things, only a very minor amount of pregnancies might result in the mother dying, you forgot that fact, and don't mention in your reply to him all the cases where the only life in question is the baby's.
I don't understand people who are for abortions, a fetus is a human being - that's a fact, telling people that a woman has the right to abort them is the same as picking favorites, the mother over the baby - but the truth is that both are equal human beings, period.
I am not using it to justify all abortions, only those that are done when the woman had no say in carrying the child. If you believe I was doing what you say, please point out how I was doing so.
Again, I was only part of this particular conversation to respond to Kenny/Lee's stance that a pregnant woman should put her life at risk even in cases of rape. I was not referring to all abortions when I replied to his comment.
That being said, I don't believe a fetus is a human until it is capable of thoughts and emotion. Unless you can find some actual proof that a fetus is capable of those two things at a stage or during the entire duration of pregnancy, then I will not even consider the idea that abortion is taking a life.
You're mixing things, only a very minor amount of pregnancies might result in the mother dying, you forgot that fact, and don't mention in y… moreour reply to him all the cases where the only life in question is the baby's.
I don't understand people who are for abortions, a fetus is a human being - that's a fact, telling people that a woman has the right to abort them is the same as picking favorites, the mother over the baby - but the truth is that both are equal human beings, period.
A sperm is still a living thing however, no matter how small, despite not being inside of an egg. An egg, however, is not a living thing at all.
Tinni, Belan and I have already proved in other comments on this thread that life begins at conception and that there's a difference between a fertilized egg and a sperm (which only acts as a part of the human being, 23 chromosomes and not the total amount of 46 chromosomes that are found in human beings).
In addition, look up the name Bernard Nathanson, he has explained that life begins at conception and had performed a tremendous amount of abortions before quitting, a very smart chap, died in 2011.
The fetus hasn't been born yet, but it is very much alive. Sure, it wouldn't be conscious of you killing it at all, but that doesn't justify… more the action of killing it. You're still taking away it's life, which is what this whole debate is about. The idea of it not knowing any better doesn't really have anything to do with it.
((Figured out how to do the quote thing.)) Technically, you are correct, it is the first stage in human development. A sperm is still a living thing however, no matter how small, despite not being inside of an egg. An egg, however, is not a living thing at all. Now, I know I've gone back to the subject of masturbation/use of a condom like, three times, but it since it is a living thing, doing either of those things, is, effectively, making the decision to take the life away from millions of sperm. Yes, only one of those sperm would have eventually become a baby, but still you are taking the life away from that one… [view original content]
Tinni, Belan and I have brought many proofs, articles and professionals who claim the same, you can dig in this thread and find the answers in our comments.
By the way, by the 8th week of pregnancy the brain already functions, and most abortions are done after the 8th week.
Again, I was only part of this particular conversation to respond to Kenny/Lee's stance that a pregnant woman should put her life at risk ev… moreen in cases of rape. I was not referring to all abortions when I replied to his comment.
That being said, I don't believe a fetus is a human until it is capable of thoughts and emotion. Unless you can find some actual proof that a fetus is capable of those two things at a stage or during the entire duration of pregnancy, then I will not even consider the idea that abortion is taking a life.
I'm simply saying that aborting a human being is murder, if you think murder is wrong, then abortion is wrong all the same.
The only counter argument to that which would still be against murder would be they're not human yet, because you can't murder something that is to you "a blob of cells", but that would be ignorance in biology, some people say "I believe it isn't human", but this issue has no place for beliefs, only hard facts of life, ask anyone who knows fetology, they will tell you that life begins at conception, where the components of a human being fertilize and the human starts developing.
Honestly you can wave your facts about as much as you like, but I simply feel that abortion should be allowed without restrictions. Can I justify it? Not really. I just ask you not to think less of me for it, because it's simply how I feel.
That's how you take it.
I'm simply saying that aborting a human being is murder, if you think murder is wrong, then abortion is wrong all… more the same.
The only counter argument to that which would still be against murder would be they're not human yet, because you can't murder something that is to you "a blob of cells", but that would be ignorance in biology, some people say "I believe it isn't human", but this issue has no place for beliefs, only hard facts of life, ask anyone who knows fetology, they will tell you that life begins at conception, where the components of a human being fertilize and the human starts developing.
This is to all the people who say that it doesn't matter if the woman's life is at stake. I won't say how I think about you if you think this is the right way to do things, but just don't expect me to respect this view.
Honestly you can wave your facts about as much as you like, but I simply feel that abortion should be allowed without restrictions. Can I justify it? Not really. I just ask you not to think less of me for it, because it's simply how I feel.
Of course. I get a bit too worked up about stuff like this. I'm considering leaving the forums for a bit, since I'm probably doing more damage than actually contributing to discussions.
If you can't prove it, I can't take any sort of understanding to it or find any reason in it.
With that said, I will respect you and your beliefs as long as you don't force them on anyone else without justifying it.
Of course. I get a bit too worked up about stuff like this. I'm considering leaving the forums for a bit, since I'm probably doing more damage than actually contributing to discussions.
Guts? You say it like it's an easy decision for them to make, things aren't so simple that you can boil the issue down to being right or wrong and you have no idea what these people go through, sure some may just be selfish cowards, others have been beaten down by life so badly they don't see a single glimmer of hope left, there are life situations far worse than you could possibly ever imagine, both of the examples you gave are middle class people from first world countries, there are far worse situations from people that simply don't have the resources to handle that, let's take your second example would that woman be alive without her 50 surgeries and chimo and all that? Unlikely.
You can't just say it's wrong and leave it at that, some people simply don't have the resources to take care of the child, maybe they already have some that they won't be able to take care of if they have another one or hell maybe they don't have the resources to have the kid born in the first place, not everyone is lucky and not everyone has hope.
if it's not legal people will do it just in less sanitary and safe ways that may end up putting them in danger
Yeah... But it's stil… morel their choice, legal or illegal, it's murder. If they want to kill their own child because it's hard to take care of one they should at least have the guts to look them in the eyes before doing it, most won't be able to do that, because most are hypocrites - if they don't see it happen and let a doctor do it for them in a legal clinic, it will just give them the feeling that it's justified.
Either way, forcing them or not, abortion will still be the wrong thing to do if you respect human life, anyone who will understand that and still want to go through it is just in for murder of the incapable to object, because life begins at conception and ending the baby's life after that is murder - whether it's slicing the baby inside her womb and sucking it out like a piece of trash or taking abortion pills. Th… [view original content]
If you can't raise the baby, you give it up for adoption, there are mothers who are dead jealous of the fact that you can have a child of your own and would care for your child and raise them as their own if you don't want to.
Despite any "hard situation" you might be in, we as humans have no right to take from a baby its right to live, it's as simple as that.
You might not know what will come of the life you are saving by giving birth to the baby, but it's not your decision to make, only the one who's life is about to be robbed can decide if he wants/doesn't want to be alive, denying them of the opportunity to choose that is the most horrible thing you can do to them.
Guts? You say it like it's an easy decision for them to make, things aren't so simple that you can boil the issue down to being right or wro… moreng and you have no idea what these people go through, sure some may just be selfish cowards, others have been beaten down by life so badly they don't see a single glimmer of hope left, there are life situations far worse than you could possibly ever imagine, both of the examples you gave are middle class people from first world countries, there are far worse situations from people that simply don't have the resources to handle that, let's take your second example would that woman be alive without her 50 surgeries and chimo and all that? Unlikely.
You can't just say it's wrong and leave it at that, some people simply don't have the resources to take care of the child, maybe they already have some that they won't be able to take care of if they have another one or hell maybe they don't have the resources… [view original content]
Indeed, and if someone can't separate their opinions from the course of action they will take and think practically, and instead force their… more opinion on others through violence (verbal or physical) - I won't respect them.
If they can maintain balance and harmony between thought and action - I will respect them.
Again, when I say "respect" I don't mean "agree", I just won't aggressively try to force my own on them, therefore respecting them to let them have the freedom to think whatever the fuck they want to think, as long as it stays in their head that is.
I don't know how to respond to this, and frankly, I don't think I can, because this statement is meaningless.
Of course actions come from opinions, but there's a line between them that makes all the differnce.
If a guy would rape every girl he lusts for, all women by now would be victims of rape, I respect those who can restrain themselves and put a bold line between thought and action, self-restraint is the only reason why there's no anarchy in the streets.
Not any more meaningless than all the bullshit on this thread.
People live out their ideas, And if someone who fantasizes about rape doesn't actually rape people it's because there are a lot of factors required for the action to be done.
I don't know how to respond to this, and frankly, I don't think I can, because this statement is meaningless.
Of course actions come from… more opinions, but there's a line between them that makes all the differnce.
If a guy would rape every girl he lusts for, all women by now would be victims of rape, I respect those who can restrain themselves and put a bold line between thought and action, self-restraint is the only reason why there's no anarchy in the streets.
Not any more meaningless than all the bullshit on this thread.
Sure, that's the easy way out, just call everyone out on bullshit.
People live out their ideas
Not every single idea, ideas come and go, they're thoughts, they don't hold much meaning unless you give them any.
And if someone who fantasizes about rape doesn't actually rape people it's because there are a lot of factors required for the action to be done.
Not entirely true, people might want to have sex with someone and just the simple fact that it would be horrible to force them into it is enough to hold them back from doing it. Those who see how immoral it is and thus don't do it deserve at least a little respect, while those who don't, do not deserve any respect, they have no control over themselves and might probably need professional help.
Not any more meaningless than all the bullshit on this thread.
People live out their ideas, And if someone who fantasizes about rape doesn't actually rape people it's because there are a lot of factors required for the action to be done.
Sure, that's the easy way out, just call everyone out on bullshit.
Not everyone, But there's certainly a considerable amount of shit on thread.
Not every single idea, ideas come and go, they're thoughts, they don't hold much meaning unless you give them any.
The ones they agree with and think is right.
Not entirely true, people might want to have sex with someone and just the simple fact that it would be horrible to force them into it is enough to hold them back from doing it. Those who see how immoral it is and thus don't do it deserve at least a little respect, while those who don't, do not deserve any respect, they have no control over themselves and might probably need professional help.
That's what I meant too. There are a lot of factors, Ideas. A lot of them are respectable, Including the empathy for the victim, for one, But the idea of rape itself is not; Although this is not a good example as it's not really an opinion.
Not any more meaningless than all the bullshit on this thread.
Sure, that's the easy way out, just call everyone out on bullshit.
… more People live out their ideas
Not every single idea, ideas come and go, they're thoughts, they don't hold much meaning unless you give them any.
And if someone who fantasizes about rape doesn't actually rape people it's because there are a lot of factors required for the action to be done.
Not entirely true, people might want to have sex with someone and just the simple fact that it would be horrible to force them into it is enough to hold them back from doing it. Those who see how immoral it is and thus don't do it deserve at least a little respect, while those who don't, do not deserve any respect, they have no control over themselves and might probably need professional help.
Comments
Indeed, and if someone can't separate their opinions from the course of action they will take and think practically, and instead force their opinion on others through violence (verbal or physical) - I won't respect them.
If they can maintain balance and harmony between thought and action - I will respect them.
Again, when I say "respect" I don't mean "agree", I just won't aggressively try to force my own on them, therefore respecting them to let them have the freedom to think whatever the fuck they want to think, as long as it stays in their head that is.
Yeah... But it's still their choice, legal or illegal, it's murder. If they want to kill their own child because it's hard to take care of one they should at least have the guts to look them in the eyes before doing it, most won't be able to do that, because most are hypocrites - if they don't see it happen and let a doctor do it for them in a legal clinic, it will just give them the feeling that it's justified.
Either way, forcing them or not, abortion will still be the wrong thing to do if you respect human life, anyone who will understand that and still want to go through it is just in for murder of the incapable to object, because life begins at conception and ending the baby's life after that is murder - whether it's slicing the baby inside her womb and sucking it out like a piece of trash or taking abortion pills. That's what I think people need to know, and if most people will understand that, abortion on its own will not be looked upon as the right thing to do as long as the consequences of the birth won't result in the mother dying, because it's their life first, and your 9 months of hell second.
I don't think most people would just give up on life in her position, and even if they were to, we could never know who will be the person you're carrying, they might want to live and they might not, but we are obligated to give them the right to choose! They are weaker than us, justice forces the side who is stronger (the parent in this case) to bear most of the distress to defend the rights of the weaker (the baby in this case).
The decision is up to them, since their life is at stake here, not anyone else's. They have the right to be born!
I don't know if forcing childbirth is the right thing to do, but let me tell you this; Abortion is still wrong, to take the gift of life from someone unable to voice their own opinion about it is sickening.
Sorry that I consider my life and my future to be more important than a blob of cells (if, of course, I had the abortion early on). I'm the actual human being here right now, not the potential of life I'd be carrying. I'd have to devote my life to taking care of the child, and at this stage of my life, I am not mature enough or financially stable enough to do that. Maybe I don't want to be 17 and undergo the incredibly painful process of child birth against my will when I can't even vote yet. Maybe taking in the fact that I suffer from mental illness and how bringing a child into the world when I'm not ready yet would impact my emotional health. And adopting would only strengthen that, having to go through life feeling guilty that I couldn't be a mother to my child.
It seems like most people on the "pro-life" side are actually just "pro-birth". Do you care what happens afterword, what environment this child might be born into? It's the same people who fight for lives being brought into this world who don't care what happens afterwords. The exact same people who deny them welfare or look down at them for buying food stamps. If most of this energy to fight abortion went into improving the lives of those who were actually born into these situations, the world would be a much better place.
And imagine all the guys fapping right now to porn, all that potential life being thrown away into a Kleenex. No one spares a second thought about that.
I don't know anyone "proud" to get an abortion, only proud to have the ability to make that choice themselves and not be forced to do otherwise. I knew some girls whose contraception either failed or were raped that got abortions and they didn't just say "whoopdy-doo I just got an abortion!". They cried about it for weeks and it was a very heavy decision to make for some of them.
It seems like you interpreted my post as me being like that if I had to go through an abortion. I'm not sure where you got that from exactly (maybe the picture I posted?) but while I would definitely go for an abortion under the circumstances I mentioned, I wouldn't go into it lightly and I would guarantee you it would leave it's own emotional scars.
Not everyone has easy access to contraception, and not everyone receives proper sex education to know what will get you pregnant and what won't.
That's pretty horrible.
It's not a fucking game where there are "cowards", I'm a young girl and I get to be terrified at what my body will go through and the aftermath of it. This isn't a drinking game with your buddies doing dares or something, this is my life and a woman is not a coward for not wanting to bring a life into a bad situation or go through motherhood when she isn't mentally (or even physically, for young girls who are raped) ready.
Yes, because condoms are guaranteed to work every time, and everyone knows how to properly prevent pregnancy! Of course!
Humans have hormones. We have sex. Deal with it.
This, frankly, is so disgusting I didn't even want to respond to it especially since AGenesis made a good reply. There are complications in many pregnancies, and the mother has to die just to deliver the baby? And often times this will kill both lives, making the "sacrifice" worthless. I can only imagine your logic applied to middle-eastern 12 year-old child brides who are raped by their husbands and die during labor.
Not just a blob of cells, it has been said over and over again that it's a human life the moment the egg cell is fertilized. (to be more precise, life begins at the moment of totipotency, which occurs during fertilization.) A zygote, which is a human life in the earliest stage of development is not just like any other blob of cells. This is a scientific fact, so this unoriginal comparison is baseless. If you think you're too young to deal with having a child then don't have sex. Excluding rape cases, no one is coercing you to have sex, the decision is all yours. There are always going to be consequences that come with having sex, and you have to be mature enough to deal with them and take responsibility. Just as when you learn to drive a car, you have to accept the possible consequences that come with driving a car, such as getting into an accident or getting a ticket. If you get pregnant and don't have the maturity or the means to take care of the child, then that's what adoption is for. It's also been said numerous times that you don't have to raise the child if you don't want to, nobody is forcing you to. Give the baby to someone who will give them the love and care they deserve. It's a very simple solution.There are plenty of infertile couples who would do anything to have a child. Why would you feel guilty about giving your child up so they can at least have a chance to live a happy life? Are you seriously implying that you'd feel less guilty about murdering your own baby?
No, we just think that every person deserves to live out their life the way they choose to, not have it selfishly stolen from them when they're in their most vulnerable and defenseless state. It is selfish and immoral to kill an innocent unborn child who doesn't even have the means to protect themselves. The rest of that part of your post is impertinent to this debate, seeing as we're arguing whether or not aborting an unborn baby is at all justifiable (it's not) but I'll respond anyway. Life is hard for us all, but at least we're alive.
The keyword is "potential". There is an enormous difference between an embryo and sperm/unfertilized egg cells. One is already a human life, the other is just cells that have the potential to become a human life under specific circumstances. Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during the process known as fertilization. It is when the two sets of male and female DNA (aka sperm and egg) combine does a new life form. At first it's only one cell (zygote), but it is an entirely new organism; by definition a separate human life. To explain that more in depth, Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being. I know it sounds convoluted, but it really isn't that difficult to grasp.
Fertilized egg cell= a human life.
Unfertilized egg cell= not a human life.
Combined egg and sperm= a human life
Separate egg and sperm= not a human life
Abortion= killing a human life
Masturbation= not killing a human life
Everything I just stated is proven scientific fact. You cannot dispute it. Also, when a guy jerks off they aren't disposing of potential human lives, they're just disposing of sperm. The sperm needs to be in the near vicinity of an egg cell in order to have the potential to become a human life. So with that said, obviously we care more about the human life in the early stages of development than the sperm and unfertilized egg cells. Why? Because, for the umpteenth time, it's a human life, not an ordinary clump of cells. So please refrain from trying to rewrite science in order to justify abortion. It's absolutely ridiculous that so many of you keep saying that the two are interchangeable, when they're evidently not.
You'd like this one:
Of course sex isn't a game.
Why do you think I stated, "Either use a condom each and everytime before sexual activity, or don't have sex?"
And admittedly I should've added using proper birth control.
Sex is not a game.
And that's why, quite frankly, those who are NOT WILLING to be responsible, have no business having sex.
And yes, people are cowards when they abort their child, all because they don't wanna face the consequences for sleeping around and not using protection and birth control.
It's really no different when someone abandons their child in a dumpster somewhere.
"And I personally am not gonna feel sorry for them, as they put themself in that situation."
I realize that's a pretty strong thing to say.
But think about this, would you feel sorry for someone who gets caught in the act of stealing a car, and gets sent to jail for it?
After all, they knew it was wrong to steal, but they deliberately went and did it anyway.
So why should you feel sorry that they are now suffering the consequences of their foolish choice?
So the same goes for someone who has unprotected sex with someone, knowing full well what it could lead too.
And as far as my last statement, I still stand by it.
I myself was at risk at dying when I was born, and so was my mom.
Nevertheless, my mom and dad were determined to see me born
And despite my having severe health problems as a baby, I've grown up into a very healthy and strong man, who has a truly wonderful life.
And all that would've been taken away from me, if my parents had decided to abort me, because of the risk my being born posed.
As far as I'm concerned, every child should have a chance to live.
So after relating my personal experience, something I was not obligated to do, do you still find my stance disgusting?
So you're now saying it's selfish to want to live? How does that even make sense? You might as well say it's selfish for human beings to live life as they see fit. And you still didn't answer my question in regards to what the woman should do if she were in the situation I described. You claim it's selfish to abort a fetus even when the woman's life is in danger, however I could say the same for people believing that every woman must carry a
baby to term no matter what the circumstances are. However, I won't even dwell into that because I know selfishness is, at the very least, a human trait--hell, an animal trait, thus it is human nature for us to be selfish to an extent, especially when it comes to survival.
Thanks for posting this.
God bless you, Tinni!
Tinni did a good job addressing all of this already, but I'll give ya a response anyway.
This is such a cop out, and I don't understand how people supporting pro-choice find any level of legitimacy in the argument. That so called "blob of cells" is indisputably a developing human being. If you were to do nothing, this developing human being would obviously be born. So by you terminating it, you are actively stealing it's life. Calling it a "blob of cells" doesn't change this. Regardless of how you personally want to label it, regardless of you choosing to ignore that it is in fact a living and developing human being, the fact doesn't change that you are destroying human life. So no, there is no level of justification just off of the basis that it's "your body", "your future", ect.
No you wouldn't. Obviously you could give the child up for adoption, which would certainly be better than outright killing it.
I don't understand why everyone on your side of the debate consistently feels the need to detail how hard the situation can be for the mother, as if those supporting pro-life don't understand this. We realize that the situations can be tough, however this doesn't justify making your unborn child pay the ultimate price for either your mistakes or your situation. Such a thing is as selfish as can possibly be in this world. The mother's undesirable situation doesn't inherently justify doing whatever they want to an innocent party to make their own situation better. Again, this is one of the most selfish, outright immoral decisions I can possibly even think of. There is no getting around how incredibly selfish this decision is.
You would feel guilty giving your child up for adoption... but you wouldn't feel guilty for not even giving them the chance to live, period? You wouldn't feel guilty about straight up killing them? As I said above, giving them up for adoption beats the alternative of robbing them of their life.
This is totally irrelevant to the debate over whether abortion itself is justifiable or not, so I'm not really going to go into this. People are "pro life" in the sense of giving developing human beings the right to live, and being against their outright murder. Call it whatever you want. Regardless of their situation after birth, the whole point is that they are free to live their lives, however that life may be. It's not up to us to decide their quality of life, it's up to us to protect their right to live at all.
They don't spare a second thought about it because the comparison makes no sense at all. What is up with all of the people on this thread throwing this argument around? Tinni already detailed on why this comparison makes no sense, so I'm not going to.
Yes. No one forced abortion on your parents, and it's great that they were able to have you. There is no law forcing anyone to abort. But there should be an option for one. How different is your situation from
?
^Those girls didn't have any choice at all. Your parents picked the choice they wanted, but a girl in the situation described above would be forced into it. I really don't see how one could justify that.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I've had a bit of a busy day.
No worries.
If the mother is truly in such a position that she cannot financially support both herself and the child, she should absolutely consider adoption over not giving the child the chance to live, as it is not right for us to make the call on what that particular child will be able to do with his or her own life. This applies to the other scenarios that you listed as well. We can't reasonably decide for the child whether or not their life is worth living. We don't know their fate, unless we take it into our hands to make sure they never get a chance to make anything of themselves within whatever environment they may have otherwise been placed into. How can we justifiably make these decisions for another human being? That simply isn't fair at all. It's better to have lived than not have lived at all. There are many people around the world living in poor conditions that are simply grateful to be alive, and rightfully so, as life is the greatest gift that can possibly be given in the world. It isn't right to decide the worth of another human's life, and it certainly isn't right to kill them based on that personal, subjective viewpoint.
Yes. That is the start of human development. It may be the lowest stage of a human being, but it is still a human being.
The fetus hasn't been born yet, but it is very much alive. Sure, it wouldn't be conscious of you killing it at all, but that doesn't justify the action of killing it. You're still taking away it's life, which is what this whole debate is about. The idea of it not knowing any better doesn't really have anything to do with it.
Again, no worries. I thought I was maybe a bit condescending myself. It's all good.
Nice, haha.
As I've said, I respect that. It was indeed the picture that threw me off a bit, and the whole "I got an abortion 'cause I didn't 'feel like' being a mother" was the intent I was following.
And, again, I am not a female. So I can't tell a woman what they should do with their bodies. Even if I'm not keen to what they're doing in the first place.
((Figured out how to do the quote thing.)) Technically, you are correct, it is the first stage in human development. A sperm is still a living thing however, no matter how small, despite not being inside of an egg. An egg, however, is not a living thing at all. Now, I know I've gone back to the subject of masturbation/use of a condom like, three times, but it since it is a living thing, doing either of those things, is, effectively, making the decision to take the life away from millions of sperm. Yes, only one of those sperm would have eventually become a baby, but still you are taking the life away from that one as well.
That all said, I think if there's nothing morally wrong with masturbating/using a condom, then there really is nothing at all wrong with aborting a fetus, especially at it's earliest stage.
So, Masturbation isn't genocide, but it is still murder, with that reasoning, if one of those sperms could have potentially become a human.
But I do know a stance where the child had to be aborted to safe the mother's life.
See, they did some kind of test to see if he'd have Down's syndrome, and the thing they did to her risked their life in some odd way (it's super rare and only might occur if you have that test), it infected them with something and they said that if she wouldn't abort the baby, they would both die.
That's the only instance where abortion is alright, when the life in question isn't just the baby's, then it is ok.
But the mother's life isn't in question here, only the baby's, so robbing the baby of his life is not just.
The scenario where childbirth will kill he mother is different, do not try to use it to justify all abortions.
I am not using it to justify all abortions, only those that are done when the woman had no say in carrying the child. If you believe I was doing what you say, please point out how I was doing so.
You say that last part as if it is a fact.
You're mixing things, only a very minor amount of pregnancies might result in the mother dying, you forgot that fact, and don't mention in your reply to him all the cases where the only life in question is the baby's.
I don't understand people who are for abortions, a fetus is a human being - that's a fact, telling people that a woman has the right to abort them is the same as picking favorites, the mother over the baby - but the truth is that both are equal human beings, period.
Again, I was only part of this particular conversation to respond to Kenny/Lee's stance that a pregnant woman should put her life at risk even in cases of rape. I was not referring to all abortions when I replied to his comment.
That being said, I don't believe a fetus is a human until it is capable of thoughts and emotion. Unless you can find some actual proof that a fetus is capable of those two things at a stage or during the entire duration of pregnancy, then I will not even consider the idea that abortion is taking a life.
Tinni, Belan and I have already proved in other comments on this thread that life begins at conception and that there's a difference between a fertilized egg and a sperm (which only acts as a part of the human being, 23 chromosomes and not the total amount of 46 chromosomes that are found in human beings).
In addition, look up the name Bernard Nathanson, he has explained that life begins at conception and had performed a tremendous amount of abortions before quitting, a very smart chap, died in 2011.
Tinni, Belan and I have brought many proofs, articles and professionals who claim the same, you can dig in this thread and find the answers in our comments.
By the way, by the 8th week of pregnancy the brain already functions, and most abortions are done after the 8th week.
That's how you take it.
I'm simply saying that aborting a human being is murder, if you think murder is wrong, then abortion is wrong all the same.
The only counter argument to that which would still be against murder would be they're not human yet, because you can't murder something that is to you "a blob of cells", but that would be ignorance in biology, some people say "I believe it isn't human", but this issue has no place for beliefs, only hard facts of life, ask anyone who knows fetology, they will tell you that life begins at conception, where the components of a human being fertilize and the human starts developing.
Honestly you can wave your facts about as much as you like, but I simply feel that abortion should be allowed without restrictions. Can I justify it? Not really. I just ask you not to think less of me for it, because it's simply how I feel.
This is to all the people who say that it doesn't matter if the woman's life is at stake. I won't say how I think about you if you think this is the right way to do things, but just don't expect me to respect this view.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
If you can't prove it, I can't take any sort of understanding to it or find any reason in it.
With that said, I will respect you and your beliefs as long as you don't force them on anyone else without justifying it.
Of course. I get a bit too worked up about stuff like this. I'm considering leaving the forums for a bit, since I'm probably doing more damage than actually contributing to discussions.
I don't see how, but if you think you need time to relax it's up to you
Guts? You say it like it's an easy decision for them to make, things aren't so simple that you can boil the issue down to being right or wrong and you have no idea what these people go through, sure some may just be selfish cowards, others have been beaten down by life so badly they don't see a single glimmer of hope left, there are life situations far worse than you could possibly ever imagine, both of the examples you gave are middle class people from first world countries, there are far worse situations from people that simply don't have the resources to handle that, let's take your second example would that woman be alive without her 50 surgeries and chimo and all that? Unlikely.
You can't just say it's wrong and leave it at that, some people simply don't have the resources to take care of the child, maybe they already have some that they won't be able to take care of if they have another one or hell maybe they don't have the resources to have the kid born in the first place, not everyone is lucky and not everyone has hope.
If you can't raise the baby, you give it up for adoption, there are mothers who are dead jealous of the fact that you can have a child of your own and would care for your child and raise them as their own if you don't want to.
Despite any "hard situation" you might be in, we as humans have no right to take from a baby its right to live, it's as simple as that.
You might not know what will come of the life you are saving by giving birth to the baby, but it's not your decision to make, only the one who's life is about to be robbed can decide if he wants/doesn't want to be alive, denying them of the opportunity to choose that is the most horrible thing you can do to them.
All the misguided individuals on this thread, no doubt a majority of them male.
can you expand on that? I'm interested.
Maintain balance? What exactly do you mean? I suppose actions come out of thin air? Or people just pull them out of their asses?
I don't know how to respond to this, and frankly, I don't think I can, because this statement is meaningless.
Of course actions come from opinions, but there's a line between them that makes all the differnce.
If a guy would rape every girl he lusts for, all women by now would be victims of rape, I respect those who can restrain themselves and put a bold line between thought and action, self-restraint is the only reason why there's no anarchy in the streets.
Not any more meaningless than all the bullshit on this thread.
People live out their ideas, And if someone who fantasizes about rape doesn't actually rape people it's because there are a lot of factors required for the action to be done.
Sure, that's the easy way out, just call everyone out on bullshit.
Not every single idea, ideas come and go, they're thoughts, they don't hold much meaning unless you give them any.
Not entirely true, people might want to have sex with someone and just the simple fact that it would be horrible to force them into it is enough to hold them back from doing it. Those who see how immoral it is and thus don't do it deserve at least a little respect, while those who don't, do not deserve any respect, they have no control over themselves and might probably need professional help.
Not everyone, But there's certainly a considerable amount of shit on thread.
The ones they agree with and think is right.
That's what I meant too. There are a lot of factors, Ideas. A lot of them are respectable, Including the empathy for the victim, for one, But the idea of rape itself is not; Although this is not a good example as it's not really an opinion.