Sure, that's the easy way out, just call everyone out on bullshit.
Not everyone, But there's certainly a considerable amount of shit… more on thread.
Not every single idea, ideas come and go, they're thoughts, they don't hold much meaning unless you give them any.
The ones they agree with and think is right.
Not entirely true, people might want to have sex with someone and just the simple fact that it would be horrible to force them into it is enough to hold them back from doing it. Those who see how immoral it is and thus don't do it deserve at least a little respect, while those who don't, do not deserve any respect, they have no control over themselves and might probably need professional help.
That's what I meant too. There are a lot of factors, Ideas. A lot of them are respectable, Including the empathy for the victim, for one, But the idea of rape itself is not; Although this is not a good example as it's not really an opinion.
Oh I know it happens, but the mother's life being in danger solely because of the pregnancy isn't as common as pro choice people like to thi… morenk. As you said, these instances are pretty rare. When it comes to the statistical majority of reasoning behind abortions, the "mother's life is on the line" reason is the outlier in this case. To my disdain, most abortions are evidently done out of convenience.
Oh I know it happens, but the mother's life being in danger solely because of the pregnancy isn't as common as pro choice people like to think. As you said, these instances are pretty rare. When it comes to the statistical majority of reasoning behind abortions, the "mother's life is on the line" reason is the outlier in this case. To my disdain, most abortions are evidently done out of convenience.
But I do know a stance where the child had to be aborted to safe the mother's life.
See, they did some kind of test to see if he'd have D… moreown's syndrome, and the thing they did to her risked their life in some odd way (it's super rare and only might occur if you have that test), it infected them with something and they said that if she wouldn't abort the baby, they would both die.
That's the only instance where abortion is alright, when the life in question isn't just the baby's, then it is ok.
Yes. No one forced abortion on your parents, and it's great that they were able to have you. There is no law forcing anyone to abort. But th… moreere should be an option for one. How different is your situation from
middle-eastern 12 year-old child brides who are raped by their husbands and die during labor.
?
^Those girls didn't have any choice at all. Your parents picked the choice they wanted, but a girl in the situation described above would be forced into it. I really don't see how one could justify that.
but the mother's life being in danger isn't as common as pro choice people like to think.
They selfish thing in what they think is that the "my body my rights" argument is only valid for them and not for the baby.
This is how I understand it:
To them:
Giving birth to a baby which probably won't cause you any permanent damage = oppression and horrible thing to force someone to do.
While:
Cutting a human being so you can suck it out and not give it a chance to live, all the while not even giving it a proper burial (most don't - but I know some that did if it was miscarriage) and instead throwing it away into the trash = fine to do because it's "not human" (while anyone who is smart enough to use google can find out that most scientists do believe that a fetus is, in fact, human being).
^ WTF??
Anyway, it really is rare, too rare to occur it would happen to them, it hit my aunt like a train
Oh I know it happens, but the mother's life being in danger solely because of the pregnancy isn't as common as pro choice people like to thi… morenk. As you said, these instances are pretty rare. When it comes to the statistical majority of reasoning behind abortions, the "mother's life is on the line" reason is the outlier in this case. To my disdain, most abortions are evidently done out of convenience.
but the mother's life being in danger isn't as common as pro choice people like to think.
They selfish thing in what they think is t… morehat the "my body my rights" argument is only valid for them and not for the baby.
This is how I understand it:
To them:
Giving birth to a baby which probably won't cause you any permanent damage = oppression and horrible thing to force someone to do.
While:
Cutting a human being so you can suck it out and not give it a chance to live, all the while not even giving it a proper burial (most don't - but I know some that did if it was miscarriage) and instead throwing it away into the trash = fine to do because it's "not human" (while anyone who is smart enough to use google can find out that most scientists do believe that a fetus is, in fact, human being).
^ WTF??
Anyway, it really is rare, too rare to occur it would happen to them, it hit my aunt like a train
Luckily she got pregnant again after the abortion
Well i was seventeen once too, I was a stupid kid and did a lot of stupid stuff, even though i did a lot of stupid things in my life, i always knew if i made a mistake i took responsibility. I didn't have sex at 17, at that age i was just learning who i was and falling in love for the first time. We are in a new age, the age of the internet, where kids want to grow up fast, so then you have a immature person making, making adult decisions. Where is the responsibility @ young people's end. Abortion is not the answer to their mistakes. They want to hide behind semantics, go ahead. Jesus knows what you did. There is no escape behind the truth.
I think its sad that people are so willing to throw away one life to save another. If people don't want to have children be smart about it, use protection, do what you have to do to keep out of this situation. If someone does get in that situation they should do the responsible thing and go through legal adoption.
I'm 28 almost 29, coming up in may, I have ZERO children. None.
I support it. It's a woman's choice what to do with her body, not some crusty old man politician who will never be put into the situation hi… moremself.
I'm 17, and if I got pregnant, I would abort the baby as soon as possible. This is my life, my future, and I don't want to bring a child into it until I can actually care for one and want one. It would be unfair to me and unfair to the child.
I know I stopped going over this a while ago, but I'd like to add one last thing due to the recent conversations.
Just because I'm pro-choice it doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion/death. I support the mother's right to have the choice of what do to with her potential child. You're free to value life as much as you do, and I respect that. I just hate seeing all the moral high ground in this thread. I have no intention of arguing over what's right or wrong. I said how I felt about the subject, left it at that, and I cannot be swayed. Debating is fine, but I really hope no one here is trying to change anyone else's viewpoint.
Edit: I should have clarified. There's a fine line between respectfully telling the opposing party why you disagree and shoving your beliefs down their throat. The latter is not something I can respect or tolerate. If the person doesn't want to change, it's useless to attempt to force them. That practically erases the point of having an opinion; we don't all have to agree on the same thing. In other words, I understand your viewpoint, but I don't have to share it. I honestly couldn't care less about proof or scientific evidence, as harsh as that may sound. I won't repent because someone tells me I should feel guilty, but I also won't fight a losing battle. This is why I don't like controversial topics in general; it's all fruitless arguing over who's just and who's an idiot. More often than not, it's a waste of time, energy, and no one comes out satisfied. But maybe I'm just a pessimist.
If you think less of someone because they're pro-choice, then I'm not sure how to respond to that. I don't think it's fair to demonize someone for having a different way of thinking. This goes for all controversial topics.
Sorry if I went off on a bit of a tangent. I'm just honestly feeling a little offended. Anyway, I'm going to shut up now.
The way I see it, having an abortion is no different than throwing a baby in a garbage-bin.
Life is precious, especially that of a child.
And despite the risks of a miscarriage, or of the mom dying in childbirth, even if the mother was a rape victim, the child still deserves a shot at life.
In that circumstance, what would be required is for the woman to put the rights of that child ahead of her own.
It's that selfish, me-first attitude, is why we hear reports of rape, babies being thrown in dumpsters, and alike.
In fact, everytime I hear on the news of a baby being thrown in a dumpster, I wish they would find the dipshit mom responsible for doing such, and beat the living-hell out of her.
Now normally I don't condone violence against women, but if a woman is so heartless that she does that to her own defenseless infant, she deserves an ass-whipping at the very least.
Of course it's not just people who suffer because of human selfishness.
Animals to are victims of it.
For example, I was talking to my aunt awhile back, and she said my cousin had recently gotten a new kitten, whom she found in a dumpster- locked inside a Ziploc bag.
I'm happy to say that kitten is alright, and that my cousin absolutely loves the little guy!
Still though, what was done to it by it's previous owner, makes me sick.
You hit the nail right on the head. They will say anything to justify both their immoral behavior and the murder of an innocent human life.
… more
It's good to hear your aunt is alright now, I'm sorry that she had to go through that though. May the little one rest in peace.
This is to all the people who say that it doesn't matter if the woman's life is at stake. I won't say how I think about you if you think thi… mores is the right way to do things, but just don't expect me to respect this view.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
I just hate seeing all the moral high ground in this thread. I have no intention of arguing over what's right or wrong. I said how I felt about the subject, left it at that, and I cannot be swayed.
I'm sorry, but not everything is reasonably subjective. There is no reason for us to support something immoral, so of course we're going to take a moral high ground. I'm not saying I personally think people who support abortion are bad people, but these people are absolutely supporting an irrational, dangerous, and immoral viewpoint. I hope that they some day realize this. Again, I don't believe that this is reasonably subjective. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but not everyone's opinion is the correct one/ the morally acceptable one.
I really hope no one here is trying to change anyone else's viewpoint.
I would say that I personally am. Why else would we be wasting our time? We aren't arguing just for the sake of doing it. This is a very important subject, and I think it's reasonable to try and help people to see what we believe to be right. If people weren't so defensive of their opinions and instead debated objectively, then I think we would get somewhere.
I honestly couldn't care less about proof or scientific evidence, as harsh as that may sound
So you're just going to believe whatever you want to believe regardless of the proof against it? No matter the fact that your stance is harmful? How can you justify that?
I know I stopped going over this a while ago, but I'd like to add one last thing due to the recent conversations.
Just because I'm pro-ch… moreoice it doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion/death. I support the mother's right to have the choice of what do to with her potential child. You're free to value life as much as you do, and I respect that. I just hate seeing all the moral high ground in this thread. I have no intention of arguing over what's right or wrong. I said how I felt about the subject, left it at that, and I cannot be swayed. Debating is fine, but I really hope no one here is trying to change anyone else's viewpoint.
Edit: I should have clarified. There's a fine line between respectfully telling the opposing party why you disagree and shoving your beliefs down their throat. The latter is not something I can respect or tolerate. If the person doesn't want to change, it's useless to attempt to force them. That practically erases the poin… [view original content]
That's bullshit. Everybody has a different opinion that they cannot change. It's simple what we believe. All opinions deserve respect because we can't just flip a switch and have a different viewpoint.
I don't think less of people who support abortion, in fact a few of my friends have had abortions, but I don't berate them 24/7, criticize them, or refuse to associate with them because of that. They're my friends and I care about them, we're all human and we make mistakes. However, I do feel very sorry for them, because every single one of them has admitted they regret aborting their child, and they've confided in me that they struggle with the burden of what they've done everyday. As for my pro choice friends, when given the opportunity I do try to convince them to change their viewpoint, but not because I feel superior to them, but because I legitimately believe what they're supporting is wrong. Nevertheless, I'm still going to be friends with them even if they don't change their mind,for they're not bad people just because they support something that I know is reprehensible.
Anyways, as I've said several times throughout the thread, I honestly do believe that what pro choice people are supporting is just plain wrong, inhumane, unjustifiable, and immoral. If I see facts being lied about, twisted or misconstrued in a sorry attempt to make abortion seem less horrific/more acceptable, then obviously I'm going to call them out. The truth of the matter is that the pro choice movement is condoning abortion, and abortion murders innocent human lives every single day. If someone opens the floor to debate the question of whether or not abortion is wrong, then of course I'm going to do everything in my power to convince both my opponent and everyone who is reading the thread that it is indeed wrong, and I have the facts and evidence to prove it. This is not just any ordinary debate over an opinion, and as dramatic as it sounds, this can be the difference between life and death for someone in the future.
I know I stopped going over this a while ago, but I'd like to add one last thing due to the recent conversations.
Just because I'm pro-ch… moreoice it doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion/death. I support the mother's right to have the choice of what do to with her potential child. You're free to value life as much as you do, and I respect that. I just hate seeing all the moral high ground in this thread. I have no intention of arguing over what's right or wrong. I said how I felt about the subject, left it at that, and I cannot be swayed. Debating is fine, but I really hope no one here is trying to change anyone else's viewpoint.
Edit: I should have clarified. There's a fine line between respectfully telling the opposing party why you disagree and shoving your beliefs down their throat. The latter is not something I can respect or tolerate. If the person doesn't want to change, it's useless to attempt to force them. That practically erases the poin… [view original content]
Well don't have unprotected sex or at all, and then decide to kill a baby. The whole "it's my body" blah blah argument is utter bullshit. What about the father, you just take his child away from him because of your mistakes?
Sorry that I consider my life and my future to be more important than a blob of cells (if, of course, I had the abortion early on). I'm the … moreactual human being here right now, not the potential of life I'd be carrying. I'd have to devote my life to taking care of the child, and at this stage of my life, I am not mature enough or financially stable enough to do that. Maybe I don't want to be 17 and undergo the incredibly painful process of child birth against my will when I can't even vote yet. Maybe taking in the fact that I suffer from mental illness and how bringing a child into the world when I'm not ready yet would impact my emotional health. And adopting would only strengthen that, having to go through life feeling guilty that I couldn't be a mother to my child.
It seems like most people on the "pro-life" side are actually just "pro-birth". Do you care what happens afterword, what environment this child might be born into? It's the sam… [view original content]
I find it exceedingly ironic and hilariously hypocritical that people who support abortion are called "pro-choice", if we take into consideration the fact that they're allowing the act of denying a human being the right to choose if they want to live or not.
That's also another argument I didn't take into consideration.
Yeah, the mother might be going through the hardship of the birth, but that doesn't mean she can do injustice to both the baby and the father, the father might want to raise the baby on his own and as far as I'm concerned, he donated half the "material" for the human to be created, I don't think 9 months of pain (putting it in a tragic way) can justify doing that.
Well don't have unprotected sex or at all, and then decide to kill a baby. The whole "it's my body" blah blah argument is utter bullshit. What about the father, you just take his child away from him because of your mistakes?
The way I see it, having an abortion is no different than throwing a baby in a garbage-bin.
Life is precious, especially that of a child.
… moreAnd despite the risks of a miscarriage, or of the mom dying in childbirth, even if the mother was a rape victim, the child still deserves a shot at life.
In that circumstance, what would be required is for the woman to put the rights of that child ahead of her own.
It's that selfish, me-first attitude, is why we hear reports of rape, babies being thrown in dumpsters, and alike.
In fact, everytime I hear on the news of a baby being thrown in a dumpster, I wish they would find the dipshit mom responsible for doing such, and beat the living-hell out of her.
Now normally I don't condone violence against women, but if a woman is so heartless that she does that to her own defenseless infant, she deserves an ass-whipping at the very least.
Of course it's not just people who suffer because of human selfi… [view original content]
Bullshit, if someone is having sex they better know what can get them pregnant, it's common knowledge. Not feeling sorry for someone who made their own choices and got themselves into whatever situation they did is horrible? But not killing your future child because you're not ready for it or don't want to be a mother isn't? By your logic of humans having hormones then everybody should just be able to go around and rape anyone they want because that person won't voluntarily have sex with them or whatever, right?
If a woman has unprotected sex with a man, and gets pregnant as a result, that's her problem.
Not everyone has easy access to contra… moreception, and not everyone receives proper sex education to know what will get you pregnant and what won't.
And I personally am not gonna feel sorry for them, as they put themselves in that situation to begin with.
That's pretty horrible.
And it's inhuman for the woman to take away that child's life, all because "she's not ready to be a mom." Or because, " it's an inconvenient time for her to be pregnant." It's downright cowardly on her part.
It's not a fucking game where there are "cowards", I'm a young girl and I get to be terrified at what my body will go through and the aftermath of it. This isn't a drinking game with your buddies doing dares or something, this is my life and a woman is not a coward for not wanting to bring a life into a bad situation or go through motherhoo… [view original content]
I DO NOT support the abortion of a fetus that has already GROWN into a human, baby, but until that point, it really is just a balloon of min… moredless flesh, and cells. It is unable to feel pain, or fear. Like I said, if abortion is murder, than masturbation is genocide.
Less than 1% of abortions take place PAST four months of pregnancy.
Abortion is not murder.
Abortion is not a sin.
And if you seriously think of a woman gets raped, and should still keep the baby, fuck you.
If you think if a woman gets pregnant by mistake, and should still keep the baby, fuck you.
This, is what 80% of aborted fetus' look like when they are aborted.
That doesn't look like any human I've seen.
In my opinion, the line is drawn when the life in question isn't only the baby's.
On the scenario you mentioned, a mother must think and consider:
If someone were to give me a gun and threaten you, saying it's either you or the baby, who would I choose?
Most mothers would save their child (I think?) while some will save themselves, and it's the same in abortion, since a fetus is considered a human being to every extent.
This question is just whether you would save yourself or your own offspring, it's sliding off the topic a little, but you brought it up answering to Kenny/Lee, so I guess talking about it would be relevant if we were to bend to the hypothetical, but you must remember that in light of modern technology, it is very rare to die from childbirth, so this scenario doesn't have a big effect on modern society and the issue at hand.
Now you brought up the subject, about the possibility of the woman dying in childbirth. Well, frankly, that still doesn't make having an abo… morertion right. Life's not all about doing whatever it takes to survive to another day. Sometimes you gotta make a stand, no matter what the cost.
So... hypothetically speaking. If a young woman got raped resulting in a preganancy and there was a high possibilty that she could die during childbirth, what would you propose she do then? Obviously she has the right to value her own life more than the fetus at this point. So where do you draw the line? Do you honestly believe she should just go along with the pregnancy, sacrificing her life when she had so much to live for, added with the fact that it wasn't even her fault that she was put in that shitty situation to begin with? I mean, doesn't that pretty much contradict being "pro-life?"
Sperm cells aren't living in the sense that a fetus is living. By themselves they are what they are, and will never be anything more. They only carry one set of chromosomes, and can't create anything on their own. Obviously when sperm and egg combine, a zygote is formed, and this is then the start of human development. This is the start of a human being. Sperm by itself is not human life at all, it is really only alive as any other bodily cell is alive. It has the potential to start human life, but that's all it is. Obviously no one is going to make full use of their sperm or eggs. This doesn't mean they are killing off human beings just as an abortion undoubtedly is. You're not killing anyone through masturbation, using protection during sex, abstaining from sexual intercourse, or not making full use of your reproductive potential. Through abortion you are directly killing an already developing human being, which is worlds different from simply not conceiving at any given time. In one case you're killing someone, in the other you are not. You can't kill what isn't there to be killed. Not all sperm is going to be used, not all eggs are going to be fertilized; this doesn't justify killing human beings.
The fetus hasn't been born yet, but it is very much alive. Sure, it wouldn't be conscious of you killing it at all, but that doesn't justify… more the action of killing it. You're still taking away it's life, which is what this whole debate is about. The idea of it not knowing any better doesn't really have anything to do with it.
((Figured out how to do the quote thing.)) Technically, you are correct, it is the first stage in human development. A sperm is still a living thing however, no matter how small, despite not being inside of an egg. An egg, however, is not a living thing at all. Now, I know I've gone back to the subject of masturbation/use of a condom like, three times, but it since it is a living thing, doing either of those things, is, effectively, making the decision to take the life away from millions of sperm. Yes, only one of those sperm would have eventually become a baby, but still you are taking the life away from that one… [view original content]
I would say that I personally am. Why else would we be wasting our time? We aren't arguing just for the sake of doing it. This is a very important subject, and I think it's reasonable to try and help people to see what we believe to be right. If people weren't so defensive of their opinions and instead debated objectively, then I think we would get somewhere.
Then you're going to be arguing for the rest of your life. This is a topic where most people's opinions and stances are firmly in place, and almost no amount of debating or showcasing of facts form both sides are going to change their minds, regardless if you believe it is moral or immoral since those things are subjective and differ from person to person. Like I mentioned before, I believe it should be legal because of cases like rape, incest, child abuse, and the possible endangerment of the woman's life. Nothing more and nothing less, and I don't care how rare the latter is, just because it's uncommon doesn't it mean it can't happen. Even people who are against abortion agree that it should be legal but only in those extreme cases that I mentioned. Therefore, an option should at least be there for the woman if she decides to go through with it rather than having her force to do one or the other. And you don't have to debate and argue with people to try to change their minds, at least not all the time, but rather see why they may hold those views and how they came to those conclusions. Be that as it may, I believe that neither of us can change the viewpoint of the other, and we can, at best, just accept never being on equal footing regarding this topic and move on.
I just hate seeing all the moral high ground in this thread. I have no intention of arguing over what's right or wrong. I said how I felt ab… moreout the subject, left it at that, and I cannot be swayed.
I'm sorry, but not everything is reasonably subjective. There is no reason for us to support something immoral, so of course we're going to take a moral high ground. I'm not saying I personally think people who support abortion are bad people, but these people are absolutely supporting an irrational, dangerous, and immoral viewpoint. I hope that they some day realize this. Again, I don't believe that this is reasonably subjective. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but not everyone's opinion is the correct one/ the morally acceptable one.
I really hope no one here is trying to change anyone else's viewpoint.
I would say that I personally am. Why else would we be wasting our time? We aren't arguing just for the sake of doin… [view original content]
It's truly sad that as human beings, we do such things, both to our own kind, as well as to animal-kind.
We as human beings are capable of doing so many good things.
And yet, as a whole, we seemed to treasure harming others.
This is my personal summarization of the state the world is in today: "It's a truly sad time in the history of mankind, when humanity is virtually extinct in a world that is populated by human beings." - Kenny/Lee.
The way I see it, having an abortion is no different than throwing a baby in a garbage-bin.
It is not only in metaphor but also in t… morehe literal meaning of it, do you think they bury aborted babies?
Fuck no, they mostly throw them into the trash, like they are inferior to the mother who judged them to die for more "noble causes".
I find it ironic that hypocritical people who are against abortion are called "Pro-life"...Mostly because it's Pro-Birth, nothing will stop the mother from leaving the baby somewhere, or killing it, or anything after it's born.
Might as well state I'm not looking for a fight or an argument as I don't want to get in one which would most likely offend people with these views...Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy on both sides as you decided to only cover one.
I find it exceedingly ironic and hilariously hypocritical that people who support abortion are called "pro-choice", if we take into consider… moreation the fact that they're allowing the act of denying a human being the right to choose if they want to live or not.
Well, if you still believe that an embryo counts as an actual human being, then i'm going to stop here, as my views are extremely different from yours when it comes to that. Like I said in above comments, I don't feel like anything can be called "A human being" if it doesn't have a brain, a heart, or anything that makes us human. Scientifically, you are correct, but I still have no issue whatsoever with aborting a fetus that is in it's beginning stages.
However, I do, 100% disagree with the abortion of a child in it's much later stages, if you are going to abort, abort the child while it is still a fetus, not once it's grown into what is an actual human being, with a heart, a brain, bones, and limbs.
That all said, I was happy to have this debate, and am glad it didn't eventually escalate to us insulting each-other.
Sperm cells aren't living in the sense that a fetus is living. By themselves they are what they are, and will never be anything more. They o… morenly carry one set of chromosomes, and can't create anything on their own. Obviously when sperm and egg combine, a zygote is formed, and this is then the start of human development. This is the start of a human being. Sperm by itself is not human life at all, it is really only alive as any other bodily cell is alive. It has the potential to start human life, but that's all it is. Obviously no one is going to make full use of their sperm or eggs. This doesn't mean they are killing off human beings just as an abortion undoubtedly is. You're not killing anyone through masturbation, using protection during sex, abstaining from sexual intercourse, or not making full use of your reproductive potential. Through abortion you are directly killing an already developing human being, which is worlds different from sim… [view original content]
Then you're going to be arguing for the rest of your life. This is a topic where most people's opinions and stances are firmly in place, and almost no amount of debating or showcasing of facts form both sides are going to change their minds
I'll debate the issue as long as it continues to exist. The idea of people's beliefs being unchangeable basically no matter what just screams irrational. It would be one thing if we were talking about harmless beliefs, but we're clearly not. Even if it is ultimately fruitless, I'm not just going to keep quiet about something that is so important. I'm not going to suppress my opposition to the action for the simple fact that people are stubborn.
regardless if you believe it is moral or immoral since those things are subjective and differ from person to person.
This is why I said "reasonably" subjective in my previous post. You can argue that a ridiculous amount of things are subjective. You could argue that the moral decisions behind cold blooded murder are subjective if you really wanted to. Anything that isn't factual is subjective. That isn't to say we shouldn't have a set right from wrong. Terminating developing human life as if it is inconsequential/ killing unborn children should not be morally subjective by our standards as human beings. The act of abortion kills a developing human being. No matter what selfish sort of self benefiting reasoning you want to attach for killing an innocent unborn child, it doesn't justify doing it. As human beings this should not be morally acceptable any more than any other case of murder is. Not everything is reasonably subjective, and I find it insane that this practice is actually still legal in the world.
Like I mentioned before, I believe it should be legal because of cases like rape, incest, child abuse, and the possible endangerment of the woman's life. Nothing more and nothing less, and I don't care how rare the latter is, just because it's uncommon doesn't it mean it can't happen.
The rare case of the woman's life being in genuine danger after being raped is really the only morally gray area that I can see here. There is really no right answer to that particular situation in my opinion, as either way someone is being forced to lose their life. With that being said, in general the procedure is not justifiable, and it certainly shouldn't be so readily available to the public.
Even people who are against abortion agree that it should be legal but only in those extreme cases that I mentioned. Therefore, an option should at least be there for the woman if she decides to go through with it rather than having her force to do one or the other.
It could potentially be there for her in the very rare case that she is genuinely in great danger of dying if choosing to go through with the pregnancy. Again, that is the only morally gray area that I see, as either way you're practically forcing death upon someone. I have to admit that I haven't entirely been swayed in either direction at this point, though. I'd actually be kind of interested to hear from @Tinni and @AWESOMEO on that particular subject.
Again though, in general there is really no justification for the procedure. If you want to argue in the case of the mother's life being put in great danger in the process of going through with the pregnancy, then fine, I honestly can't say I would argue with you at this point in time.
And you don't have to debate and argue with people to try to change their minds, at least not all the time, but rather see why they may hold those views and how they came to those conclusions.
Yeah, thanks.
Be that as it may, I believe that neither of us can change the viewpoint of the other, and we can, at best, just accept never being on equal footing regarding this topic and move on.
I'm totally open to changing my mind on this if someone can offer a reasonable argument for doing so. I'm not just going to blindly cling to my stance if proven irrational, especially so if it is a harmful stance to have. Until then, I'm going to keep pushing for what I know to be right.
I would say that I personally am. Why else would we be wasting our time? We aren't arguing just for the sake of doing it. This is a very imp… moreortant subject, and I think it's reasonable to try and help people to see what we believe to be right. If people weren't so defensive of their opinions and instead debated objectively, then I think we would get somewhere.
Then you're going to be arguing for the rest of your life. This is a topic where most people's opinions and stances are firmly in place, and almost no amount of debating or showcasing of facts form both sides are going to change their minds, regardless if you believe it is moral or immoral since those things are subjective and differ from person to person. Like I mentioned before, I believe it should be legal because of cases like rape, incest, child abuse, and the possible endangerment of the woman's life. Nothing more and nothing less, and I don't care how rare the latter is, j… [view original content]
^ This. I've even seen people go as far as to say that the woman's life in particular should be sacrificed (if her life is in danger) to have the baby which completely contradicts being "pro life."
I find it ironic that hypocritical people who are against abortion are called "Pro-life"...Mostly because it's Pro-Birth, nothing will stop … morethe mother from leaving the baby somewhere, or killing it, or anything after it's born.
Might as well state I'm not looking for a fight or an argument as I don't want to get in one which would most likely offend people with these views...Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy on both sides as you decided to only cover one.
I find it ironic that hypocritical people who are against abortion are called "Pro-life"...Mostly because it's Pro-Birth, nothing will stop the mother from leaving the baby somewhere, or killing it, or anything after it's born. Might as well state I'm not looking for a fight or an argument as I don't want to get in one
I find it ironic that hypocritical people who are against abortion are called "Pro-life"...Mostly because it's Pro-Birth, nothing will stop … morethe mother from leaving the baby somewhere, or killing it, or anything after it's born.
Might as well state I'm not looking for a fight or an argument as I don't want to get in one which would most likely offend people with these views...Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy on both sides as you decided to only cover one.
I find it ironic that hypocritical people who are against abortion are called "Pro-life"...Mostly because it's Pro-Birth, nothing will stop … morethe mother from leaving the baby somewhere, or killing it, or anything after it's born. Might as well state I'm not looking for a fight or an argument as I don't want to get in one
M'ask you somethin' Golden..
"it should be legal because of cases like rape, incest, child abuse, and the possible endangerment of the woman's life..Even people who are against abortion agree that it should be legal but only in those extreme cases that I mentioned."
I'd actually be kind of interested to hear from @Tinni and @AWESOMEO on that particular subject.
The only instance where I could find abortion to be an acceptable option is when the mother's life is undeniably in danger. However, because today’s prenatal care is quite advanced and very capable of taking care of any complications that may be of a concern to the mother, a legitimate case of the mother being at risk of dying if they were to give birth is incredibly rare. Instances such as these are far too sparse, and it makes no sense to legalize abortion solely for this reason when 99% of the time it never reaches the point of possible fatality. Because of this, that particular argument point can't reasonably affect the ruling of whether abortion should be legal or not. Basically what I'm saying is that in the event the mother's life is in actual danger due to the pregnancy, and there is absolutely nothing more modern medicine can do to prevent her death, then this would be the only exception to the rule, but it doesn't change the rule. As for the other cases, (rape and incest mostly, not sure how child abuse has anything to do with abortion) I'll just repeat what I said earlier in the thread: as unfortunate of circumstances as they are, the child is still not in the least at fault for how they were conceived. They're just as innocent as the mother is in this situation, and it's not fair to punish them for something that was out of their control. Killing the child because you were a victim of rape or incest will not lessen the pain caused by the incident. It will only increase the pain by immeasurable amounts. Now you'll just be the mother of a dead baby as well as a victim of rape/incest, how does that sound at all appealing? I find it insane that a woman would rather be the mother of a dead child than a living child simply because of how they were conceived. I say carry the child for 9 months, give birth to them, and if they're still too painful of a reminder, then just give them up for adoption.
Then you're going to be arguing for the rest of your life. This is a topic where most people's opinions and stances are firmly in place, and… more almost no amount of debating or showcasing of facts form both sides are going to change their minds
I'll debate the issue as long as it continues to exist. The idea of people's beliefs being unchangeable basically no matter what just screams irrational. It would be one thing if we were talking about harmless beliefs, but we're clearly not. Even if it is ultimately fruitless, I'm not just going to keep quiet about something that is so important. I'm not going to suppress my opposition to the action for the simple fact that people are stubborn.
regardless if you believe it is moral or immoral since those things are subjective and differ from person to person.
This is why I said "reasonably" subjective in my previous post. You can argue that a ridiculous amount of things are subjective… [view original content]
Welp. I think their comment just got deleted, but somebody called me "A fucking idiot." then said "Fuck you". Evidently somebody doesn't like me... Too bad that they fail to realize... GETTING TALKED DOWN TO AROUSES ME >;)
I DO NOT support the abortion of a fetus that has already GROWN into a human, baby, but until that point, it really is just a balloon of min… moredless flesh, and cells. It is unable to feel pain, or fear. Like I said, if abortion is murder, than masturbation is genocide.
Less than 1% of abortions take place PAST four months of pregnancy.
Abortion is not murder.
Abortion is not a sin.
And if you seriously think of a woman gets raped, and should still keep the baby, fuck you.
If you think if a woman gets pregnant by mistake, and should still keep the baby, fuck you.
This, is what 80% of aborted fetus' look like when they are aborted.
That doesn't look like any human I've seen.
Alright, thanks for that. I'm most definitely on the same page as you on all of that.
Basically what I'm saying is that in the event the mother's life is in actual danger due to the pregnancy, and there is absolutely nothing more modern medicine can do to prevent her death, then this would be the only exception to the rule, but it doesn't change the rule.
"it should be legal because of cases like rape, incest, child abuse, and the possible endangerment of the woman's life..Even people who are … moreagainst abortion agree that it should be legal but only in those extreme cases that I mentioned."
I'd actually be kind of interested to hear from @Tinni and @AWESOMEO on that particular subject.
The only instance where I could find abortion to be an acceptable option is when the mother's life is undeniably in danger. However, because today’s prenatal care is quite advanced and very capable of taking care of any complications that may be of a concern to the mother, a legitimate case of the mother being at risk of dying if they were to give birth is incredibly rare. Instances such as these are far too sparse, and it makes no sense to legalize abortion solely for this reason when 99% of the time it never reaches the point of possible fatality. Because of this, that particular argument point ca… [view original content]
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Yeah, I agree.
Sorry double post enjoy this kawaii anime gif:
Oh I know it happens, but the mother's life being in danger solely because of the pregnancy isn't as common as pro choice people like to think. As you said, these instances are pretty rare. When it comes to the statistical majority of reasoning behind abortions, the "mother's life is on the line" reason is the outlier in this case. To my disdain, most abortions are evidently done out of convenience.
It is a shame what those poor middle-eastern girls go through.
It truly is!
Still, two wrongs don't make a right.
They selfish thing in what they think is that the "my body my rights" argument is only valid for them and not for the baby.
This is how I understand it:
To them:
Giving birth to a baby which probably won't cause you any permanent damage = oppression and horrible thing to force someone to do.
While:
Cutting a human being so you can suck it out and not give it a chance to live, all the while not even giving it a proper burial (most don't - but I know some that did if it was miscarriage) and instead throwing it away into the trash = fine to do because it's "not human" (while anyone who is smart enough to use google can find out that most scientists do believe that a fetus is, in fact, human being).
^ WTF??
Anyway, it really is rare, too rare to occur it would happen to them, it hit my aunt like a train
Luckily she got pregnant again after the abortion
I feel bad that i eat chickens, but i have to eat something.
You hit the nail right on the head. They will say anything to justify both their immoral behavior and the murder of an innocent human life.
It's good to hear your aunt is alright now, I'm sorry that she had to go through that though. May the little one rest in peace.
Well i was seventeen once too, I was a stupid kid and did a lot of stupid stuff, even though i did a lot of stupid things in my life, i always knew if i made a mistake i took responsibility. I didn't have sex at 17, at that age i was just learning who i was and falling in love for the first time. We are in a new age, the age of the internet, where kids want to grow up fast, so then you have a immature person making, making adult decisions. Where is the responsibility @ young people's end. Abortion is not the answer to their mistakes. They want to hide behind semantics, go ahead. Jesus knows what you did. There is no escape behind the truth.
I think its sad that people are so willing to throw away one life to save another. If people don't want to have children be smart about it, use protection, do what you have to do to keep out of this situation. If someone does get in that situation they should do the responsible thing and go through legal adoption.
I'm 28 almost 29, coming up in may, I have ZERO children. None.
I know I stopped going over this a while ago, but I'd like to add one last thing due to the recent conversations.
Just because I'm pro-choice it doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion/death. I support the mother's right to have the choice of what do to with her potential child. You're free to value life as much as you do, and I respect that. I just hate seeing all the moral high ground in this thread. I have no intention of arguing over what's right or wrong. I said how I felt about the subject, left it at that, and I cannot be swayed. Debating is fine, but I really hope no one here is trying to change anyone else's viewpoint.
Edit: I should have clarified. There's a fine line between respectfully telling the opposing party why you disagree and shoving your beliefs down their throat. The latter is not something I can respect or tolerate. If the person doesn't want to change, it's useless to attempt to force them. That practically erases the point of having an opinion; we don't all have to agree on the same thing. In other words, I understand your viewpoint, but I don't have to share it. I honestly couldn't care less about proof or scientific evidence, as harsh as that may sound. I won't repent because someone tells me I should feel guilty, but I also won't fight a losing battle. This is why I don't like controversial topics in general; it's all fruitless arguing over who's just and who's an idiot. More often than not, it's a waste of time, energy, and no one comes out satisfied. But maybe I'm just a pessimist.
If you think less of someone because they're pro-choice, then I'm not sure how to respond to that. I don't think it's fair to demonize someone for having a different way of thinking. This goes for all controversial topics.
Sorry if I went off on a bit of a tangent. I'm just honestly feeling a little offended. Anyway, I'm going to shut up now.
The way I see it, having an abortion is no different than throwing a baby in a garbage-bin.
Life is precious, especially that of a child.
And despite the risks of a miscarriage, or of the mom dying in childbirth, even if the mother was a rape victim, the child still deserves a shot at life.
In that circumstance, what would be required is for the woman to put the rights of that child ahead of her own.
It's that selfish, me-first attitude, is why we hear reports of rape, babies being thrown in dumpsters, and alike.
In fact, everytime I hear on the news of a baby being thrown in a dumpster, I wish they would find the dipshit mom responsible for doing such, and beat the living-hell out of her.
Now normally I don't condone violence against women, but if a woman is so heartless that she does that to her own defenseless infant, she deserves an ass-whipping at the very least.
Of course it's not just people who suffer because of human selfishness.
Animals to are victims of it.
For example, I was talking to my aunt awhile back, and she said my cousin had recently gotten a new kitten, whom she found in a dumpster- locked inside a Ziploc bag.
I'm happy to say that kitten is alright, and that my cousin absolutely loves the little guy!
Still though, what was done to it by it's previous owner, makes me sick.
Well than that's your problem.
"Misguided?"
Can you be more specific?
I'm sorry, but not everything is reasonably subjective. There is no reason for us to support something immoral, so of course we're going to take a moral high ground. I'm not saying I personally think people who support abortion are bad people, but these people are absolutely supporting an irrational, dangerous, and immoral viewpoint. I hope that they some day realize this. Again, I don't believe that this is reasonably subjective. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but not everyone's opinion is the correct one/ the morally acceptable one.
I would say that I personally am. Why else would we be wasting our time? We aren't arguing just for the sake of doing it. This is a very important subject, and I think it's reasonable to try and help people to see what we believe to be right. If people weren't so defensive of their opinions and instead debated objectively, then I think we would get somewhere.
So you're just going to believe whatever you want to believe regardless of the proof against it? No matter the fact that your stance is harmful? How can you justify that?
Nah, that's bullshit. And everybody doesn't have a different opinion.
Nah.
No
I don't think less of people who support abortion, in fact a few of my friends have had abortions, but I don't berate them 24/7, criticize them, or refuse to associate with them because of that. They're my friends and I care about them, we're all human and we make mistakes. However, I do feel very sorry for them, because every single one of them has admitted they regret aborting their child, and they've confided in me that they struggle with the burden of what they've done everyday. As for my pro choice friends, when given the opportunity I do try to convince them to change their viewpoint, but not because I feel superior to them, but because I legitimately believe what they're supporting is wrong. Nevertheless, I'm still going to be friends with them even if they don't change their mind,for they're not bad people just because they support something that I know is reprehensible.
Anyways, as I've said several times throughout the thread, I honestly do believe that what pro choice people are supporting is just plain wrong, inhumane, unjustifiable, and immoral. If I see facts being lied about, twisted or misconstrued in a sorry attempt to make abortion seem less horrific/more acceptable, then obviously I'm going to call them out. The truth of the matter is that the pro choice movement is condoning abortion, and abortion murders innocent human lives every single day. If someone opens the floor to debate the question of whether or not abortion is wrong, then of course I'm going to do everything in my power to convince both my opponent and everyone who is reading the thread that it is indeed wrong, and I have the facts and evidence to prove it. This is not just any ordinary debate over an opinion, and as dramatic as it sounds, this can be the difference between life and death for someone in the future.
Well don't have unprotected sex or at all, and then decide to kill a baby. The whole "it's my body" blah blah argument is utter bullshit. What about the father, you just take his child away from him because of your mistakes?
I find it exceedingly ironic and hilariously hypocritical that people who support abortion are called "pro-choice", if we take into consideration the fact that they're allowing the act of denying a human being the right to choose if they want to live or not.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooookay ._.
wut .-.
That's also another argument I didn't take into consideration.
Yeah, the mother might be going through the hardship of the birth, but that doesn't mean she can do injustice to both the baby and the father, the father might want to raise the baby on his own and as far as I'm concerned, he donated half the "material" for the human to be created, I don't think 9 months of pain (putting it in a tragic way) can justify doing that.
It is not only in metaphor but also in the literal meaning of it, do you think they bury aborted babies?
Fuck no, they mostly throw them into the trash, like they are inferior to the mother who judged them to die for more "noble causes".
Bullshit, if someone is having sex they better know what can get them pregnant, it's common knowledge. Not feeling sorry for someone who made their own choices and got themselves into whatever situation they did is horrible? But not killing your future child because you're not ready for it or don't want to be a mother isn't? By your logic of humans having hormones then everybody should just be able to go around and rape anyone they want because that person won't voluntarily have sex with them or whatever, right?
I'm just saying how it is.
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In my opinion, the line is drawn when the life in question isn't only the baby's.
On the scenario you mentioned, a mother must think and consider:
If someone were to give me a gun and threaten you, saying it's either you or the baby, who would I choose?
Most mothers would save their child (I think?) while some will save themselves, and it's the same in abortion, since a fetus is considered a human being to every extent.
This question is just whether you would save yourself or your own offspring, it's sliding off the topic a little, but you brought it up answering to Kenny/Lee, so I guess talking about it would be relevant if we were to bend to the hypothetical, but you must remember that in light of modern technology, it is very rare to die from childbirth, so this scenario doesn't have a big effect on modern society and the issue at hand.
Sperm cells aren't living in the sense that a fetus is living. By themselves they are what they are, and will never be anything more. They only carry one set of chromosomes, and can't create anything on their own. Obviously when sperm and egg combine, a zygote is formed, and this is then the start of human development. This is the start of a human being. Sperm by itself is not human life at all, it is really only alive as any other bodily cell is alive. It has the potential to start human life, but that's all it is. Obviously no one is going to make full use of their sperm or eggs. This doesn't mean they are killing off human beings just as an abortion undoubtedly is. You're not killing anyone through masturbation, using protection during sex, abstaining from sexual intercourse, or not making full use of your reproductive potential. Through abortion you are directly killing an already developing human being, which is worlds different from simply not conceiving at any given time. In one case you're killing someone, in the other you are not. You can't kill what isn't there to be killed. Not all sperm is going to be used, not all eggs are going to be fertilized; this doesn't justify killing human beings.
Then you're going to be arguing for the rest of your life. This is a topic where most people's opinions and stances are firmly in place, and almost no amount of debating or showcasing of facts form both sides are going to change their minds, regardless if you believe it is moral or immoral since those things are subjective and differ from person to person. Like I mentioned before, I believe it should be legal because of cases like rape, incest, child abuse, and the possible endangerment of the woman's life. Nothing more and nothing less, and I don't care how rare the latter is, just because it's uncommon doesn't it mean it can't happen. Even people who are against abortion agree that it should be legal but only in those extreme cases that I mentioned. Therefore, an option should at least be there for the woman if she decides to go through with it rather than having her force to do one or the other. And you don't have to debate and argue with people to try to change their minds, at least not all the time, but rather see why they may hold those views and how they came to those conclusions. Be that as it may, I believe that neither of us can change the viewpoint of the other, and we can, at best, just accept never being on equal footing regarding this topic and move on.
It's truly sad that as human beings, we do such things, both to our own kind, as well as to animal-kind.
We as human beings are capable of doing so many good things.
And yet, as a whole, we seemed to treasure harming others.
This is my personal summarization of the state the world is in today: "It's a truly sad time in the history of mankind, when humanity is virtually extinct in a world that is populated by human beings." - Kenny/Lee.
I find it ironic that hypocritical people who are against abortion are called "Pro-life"...Mostly because it's Pro-Birth, nothing will stop the mother from leaving the baby somewhere, or killing it, or anything after it's born.
Might as well state I'm not looking for a fight or an argument as I don't want to get in one which would most likely offend people with these views...Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy on both sides as you decided to only cover one.
Well, if you still believe that an embryo counts as an actual human being, then i'm going to stop here, as my views are extremely different from yours when it comes to that. Like I said in above comments, I don't feel like anything can be called "A human being" if it doesn't have a brain, a heart, or anything that makes us human. Scientifically, you are correct, but I still have no issue whatsoever with aborting a fetus that is in it's beginning stages.
However, I do, 100% disagree with the abortion of a child in it's much later stages, if you are going to abort, abort the child while it is still a fetus, not once it's grown into what is an actual human being, with a heart, a brain, bones, and limbs.
That all said, I was happy to have this debate, and am glad it didn't eventually escalate to us insulting each-other.
I'll debate the issue as long as it continues to exist. The idea of people's beliefs being unchangeable basically no matter what just screams irrational. It would be one thing if we were talking about harmless beliefs, but we're clearly not. Even if it is ultimately fruitless, I'm not just going to keep quiet about something that is so important. I'm not going to suppress my opposition to the action for the simple fact that people are stubborn.
This is why I said "reasonably" subjective in my previous post. You can argue that a ridiculous amount of things are subjective. You could argue that the moral decisions behind cold blooded murder are subjective if you really wanted to. Anything that isn't factual is subjective. That isn't to say we shouldn't have a set right from wrong. Terminating developing human life as if it is inconsequential/ killing unborn children should not be morally subjective by our standards as human beings. The act of abortion kills a developing human being. No matter what selfish sort of self benefiting reasoning you want to attach for killing an innocent unborn child, it doesn't justify doing it. As human beings this should not be morally acceptable any more than any other case of murder is. Not everything is reasonably subjective, and I find it insane that this practice is actually still legal in the world.
The rare case of the woman's life being in genuine danger after being raped is really the only morally gray area that I can see here. There is really no right answer to that particular situation in my opinion, as either way someone is being forced to lose their life. With that being said, in general the procedure is not justifiable, and it certainly shouldn't be so readily available to the public.
It could potentially be there for her in the very rare case that she is genuinely in great danger of dying if choosing to go through with the pregnancy. Again, that is the only morally gray area that I see, as either way you're practically forcing death upon someone. I have to admit that I haven't entirely been swayed in either direction at this point, though. I'd actually be kind of interested to hear from @Tinni and @AWESOMEO on that particular subject.
Again though, in general there is really no justification for the procedure. If you want to argue in the case of the mother's life being put in great danger in the process of going through with the pregnancy, then fine, I honestly can't say I would argue with you at this point in time.
Yeah, thanks.
I'm totally open to changing my mind on this if someone can offer a reasonable argument for doing so. I'm not just going to blindly cling to my stance if proven irrational, especially so if it is a harmful stance to have. Until then, I'm going to keep pushing for what I know to be right.
^ This. I've even seen people go as far as to say that the woman's life in particular should be sacrificed (if her life is in danger) to have the baby which completely contradicts being "pro life."
M'ask you somethin' Golden..
Let me guess...You find that hypocritical?
The only instance where I could find abortion to be an acceptable option is when the mother's life is undeniably in danger. However, because today’s prenatal care is quite advanced and very capable of taking care of any complications that may be of a concern to the mother, a legitimate case of the mother being at risk of dying if they were to give birth is incredibly rare. Instances such as these are far too sparse, and it makes no sense to legalize abortion solely for this reason when 99% of the time it never reaches the point of possible fatality. Because of this, that particular argument point can't reasonably affect the ruling of whether abortion should be legal or not. Basically what I'm saying is that in the event the mother's life is in actual danger due to the pregnancy, and there is absolutely nothing more modern medicine can do to prevent her death, then this would be the only exception to the rule, but it doesn't change the rule. As for the other cases, (rape and incest mostly, not sure how child abuse has anything to do with abortion) I'll just repeat what I said earlier in the thread: as unfortunate of circumstances as they are, the child is still not in the least at fault for how they were conceived. They're just as innocent as the mother is in this situation, and it's not fair to punish them for something that was out of their control. Killing the child because you were a victim of rape or incest will not lessen the pain caused by the incident. It will only increase the pain by immeasurable amounts. Now you'll just be the mother of a dead baby as well as a victim of rape/incest, how does that sound at all appealing? I find it insane that a woman would rather be the mother of a dead child than a living child simply because of how they were conceived. I say carry the child for 9 months, give birth to them, and if they're still too painful of a reminder, then just give them up for adoption.
Welp. I think their comment just got deleted, but somebody called me "A fucking idiot." then said "Fuck you". Evidently somebody doesn't like me... Too bad that they fail to realize... GETTING TALKED DOWN TO AROUSES ME >;)
Alright, thanks for that. I'm most definitely on the same page as you on all of that.
Agreed.
Nah. Really just joking around. Can't say I really want to go off on the topic you and Awesomo were discussing there.