My mothers friend in High School (this is when abortion was illegal) got pregnant with her boyfriend (They used protection) and was freaked out, having a baby is a painful process she didnt want to go through at 16, so she went to a doctor for help. She asked for an illegal abortion and was denied, she went home, took some pills and tried to preform an abortian on herself with a hanger and some sewing needles. Hours later she was found in her room... dead from blood loss.
Ever since i heard this story ive been "pro choice", i dont think "pro life is very pro life" because if the pro life law wasnt in effect she will still be alive.
I find it ironic that hypocritical people who are against abortion are called "Pro-life"...Mostly because it's Pro-Birth, nothing will stop … morethe mother from leaving the baby somewhere, or killing it, or anything after it's born.
Might as well state I'm not looking for a fight or an argument as I don't want to get in one which would most likely offend people with these views...Just wanted to point out the hypocrisy on both sides as you decided to only cover one.
If you want respect, you gotta be willing to give it.
If you don't respect the values and opinions of others, they will not respect yours.
I'm just saying how it is!
I'll debate the issue as long as it continues to exist. The idea of people's beliefs being unchangeable basically no matter what just screams irrational.
The problem with that is that most people who agree it should be legal around the world don't see it as being irrational or stubborn. What may be stubborn and irrational to you is not the same for everyone else, especially not me. Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist as long as humanity exists and there will always be people that have firm stances on one side or the other. And for the record, people aren't saying you should be quite about it, your free to argue and show your beliefs regarding the matter as other people are who hold their views opposite to yours on this topic.
Anything that isn't factual is subjective. That isn't to say we shouldn't have a set right from wrong.
I never said we shouldn't. However, again, abortion isn't black and white. Just because you may consider it wrong for every case scenario doesn't mean others do, and certainly not the law. It's safe to say that most who believe it should be legal are the people in favor of it in those extreme cases I mentioned in my other post including people who are 100% against it. You even said so yourself under a specific condition. That's what I'm talking about.
I find it insane that this practice is actually still legal in the world.
And many people who believe it should be legal find it equally insane that people think it should be illegal. This only goes to show how strong both sides of the arguments are on this topic.
I'm totally open to changing my mind on this if someone can offer a reasonable argument for doing so. I'm not just going to blindly cling to my stance if proven irrational, especially so if it is a harmful stance to have. Until then, I'm going to keep pushing for what I know to be right.
Well I'm not going to even bother trying to change your views nor anyone else since that's not how I roll. I don't actively try to change the views of others since I firmly believe everyone has the right to their opinions. And like I said before, I don't consider the act of abortion being legal irrational in the slightest sense, and what you "know to be right" isn't the case for the majority.
Then you're going to be arguing for the rest of your life. This is a topic where most people's opinions and stances are firmly in place, and… more almost no amount of debating or showcasing of facts form both sides are going to change their minds
I'll debate the issue as long as it continues to exist. The idea of people's beliefs being unchangeable basically no matter what just screams irrational. It would be one thing if we were talking about harmless beliefs, but we're clearly not. Even if it is ultimately fruitless, I'm not just going to keep quiet about something that is so important. I'm not going to suppress my opposition to the action for the simple fact that people are stubborn.
regardless if you believe it is moral or immoral since those things are subjective and differ from person to person.
This is why I said "reasonably" subjective in my previous post. You can argue that a ridiculous amount of things are subjective… [view original content]
Fine. I'm not asking for any respect from someone who thinks what happened to the woman in the article is acceptable. Judge me how you like folks, I'm done trying to care.
Anyway, I'm finished with this thread. All it does now is disgust me.
If you want respect, you gotta be willing to give it.
If you don't respect the values and opinions of others, they will not respect yours.
I'm just saying how it is!
And many people who believe it should be legal find it equally insane that people think it should be illegal. This only goes to show how strong both sides of the arguments are on this topic.
Only that people who are against abortion, like us, do provide reasoning and proof to what we say, all the while those on here who are for abortion are people who mostly formed an opinion as a result of a personal subjective experience or pity for the mother (but not for the child), and those who tried to be objective here and be for abortion had so far failed to prove what we said wrong, basing only on their own beliefs and not scientific proof as to why a fetus isn't human to them (while it is).
Well I'm not going to even bother trying to change your views nor anyone else since that's not how I roll. I don't actively try to change the views of others since I firmly believe everyone has the right to their opinions.
And by saying that you're implying that Belan is doing something wrong, if he tries to stop methodical of unborn children? If you were to hear someone agrees with murder, wouldn't you try to change their view? He's not forcing anything, he's just saying what he thinks on the internet.
I'll debate the issue as long as it continues to exist. The idea of people's beliefs being unchangeable basically no matter what just scream… mores irrational.
The problem with that is that most people who agree it should be legal around the world don't see it as being irrational or stubborn. What may be stubborn and irrational to you is not the same for everyone else, especially not me. Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist as long as humanity exists and there will always be people that have firm stances on one side or the other. And for the record, people aren't saying you should be quite about it, your free to argue and show your beliefs regarding the matter as other people are who hold their views opposite to yours on this topic.
Anything that isn't factual is subjective. That isn't to say we shouldn't have a set right from wrong.
I never said we shouldn't. However, again, abortion i… [view original content]
I don't see the problem with being "pro-birth".
Sure, if I could help every abortion survivor in the world I would, but we can't just fix… more this world like that, can we?
Children in Africa are starving to death, does that mean we should go to Africa and shoot every child just because their life is bad?
I want to give them a chance at life, and you seem to be against it.
So, no, there are no hypocrisies on giving human beings their natural rights, not that I'm aware of.
Wow, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I somewhat agree with you. I'm even more shocked to say I slightly agree with somebody from the Reagan Administration... Probably not on the whole issue, but I agree rape and life of the mother are too often used to try and skirt around the real issue.
Wow, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I somewhat agree with you. I'm even more shocked to say I slightly agree with somebody from the Re… moreagan Administration... Probably not on the whole issue, but I agree rape and life of the mother are too often used to try and skirt around the real issue.
He's talking largely about drug addiction, but it applies to other situations. For all those people who are pro-life, how many of them are going to be willing to their taxes raised to afford healthcare for a new baby? How many of them are willing to pay for food stamps when a single mother's salary is insufficient? How many of them are willing to share their financial resources to ensure that those children are properly clothed, fed, educated, and employed? And before people go on about 'well, it's her responsibility,' remember what Christie said about people being flawed and making mistakes, and that if you're truly pro-life even after birth you'd be willing to reach out a helping hand.
But no, for most pro-life people, the first cry of a newborn baby is the sound last they ever want to hear from them.
I don't think that the taxes would raise drastically, but I would find a way to pay the taxes even if it rose.
If there will be any way I could help, I would, but being pro-life isn't just wanting the baby to be born and then abandoning them with their own problems.
See, we want to give them the opportunity like we got it ourselves, there are struggling families and kids who we don't help because we simply can't help everyone, we want every baby to have a good life, and if they will live a tough life due to any circumstance, helping them is something that should be done but it doesn't mean that if we don't help them, they would be better off dead.
We don't go into Africa and euthanize Ebola patients and sick kids, are we?
It's the same thing, most children who will be born instead of aborted will either be raised by their families or given up for adoption, taxes might rise a little but what can you do about it? If we don't want to pay a lot of money to the government because supporting the poor is too much for us, we might as well just kill off more of the population to ease the financial burden, because doing that or aborting a babies because times are already hard to get by is the same thing.
So... Yes, of course I would help, (cue Brenda St. John accent) it's how I was raised and how I'll raise my boys.
I never thought I'd say this, but Chris Christie is right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK1LW10nqp0
He's talking largely about drug… more addiction, but it applies to other situations. For all those people who are pro-life, how many of them are going to be willing to their taxes raised to afford healthcare for a new baby? How many of them are willing to pay for food stamps when a single mother's salary is insufficient? How many of them are willing to share their financial resources to ensure that those children are properly clothed, fed, educated, and employed? And before people go on about 'well, it's her responsibility,' remember what Christie said about people being flawed and making mistakes, and that if you're truly pro-life even after birth you'd be willing to reach out a helping hand.
But no, for most pro-life people, the first cry of a newborn baby is the sound last they ever want to hear from them.
It's truly sad that as human beings, we do such things, both to our own kind, as well as to animal-kind.
We as human beings are capable of … moredoing so many good things.
And yet, as a whole, we seemed to treasure harming others.
This is my personal summarization of the state the world is in today: "It's a truly sad time in the history of mankind, when humanity is virtually extinct in a world that is populated by human beings." - Kenny/Lee.
Welp. I think their comment just got deleted, but somebody called me "A fucking idiot." then said "Fuck you". Evidently somebody doesn't like me... Too bad that they fail to realize... GETTING TALKED DOWN TO AROUSES ME >;)
Only that people who are against abortion, like us, do provide reasoning and proof to what we say, all the while those on here who are for abortion are people who mostly formed an opinion as a result of a personal subjective experience or pity for the mother (but not for the child), and those who tried to be objective here and be for abortion had so far failed to prove what we said wrong, basing only on their own beliefs and not scientific proof as to why a fetus isn't human to them (while it is)
While the links provided show that a fetus it is a human (I'm not even arguing that, I agree), the fetus itself isn't aware of conscious thought and doesn't begin to feel any form of pain until the thalamocortical connections between the brain and the rest of the nervous system form, which doesn't happen until the third trimester. And if abortion were illegal (in the states at least), many women who wish to undergo the procedure would still find ways to abort their child even under extreme cases. http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429
And by saying that you're implying that Belan is doing something wrong, if he tries to stop methodical of unborn children? If you were to hear someone agrees with murder, wouldn't you try to change their view? He's not forcing anything, he's just saying what he thinks on the internet.
How did you get this from what I said? I in now way said that he was in the wrong for holding his views nor beliefs, and I just flat out said he's free to express those beliefs as anyone can on the internet whether they are for or against abortion, so I don't know what you're talking about here. And about your murder comparison, unfortunately I can't control how people think. Now if they were to actively try to murder someone, of course I would stop them, dissuade them or whatever to the best of my ability. I'll rephrase what I said. I believe individuals should be free to believe and hold whatever view they want as long as they don't act on their beliefs that could potentially harm others or control what people should do or think.
And your gun scenario in regards to another one of my posts somewhere isn't a good analogy, since the mother is being held against her will at gun point while in the abortion scenario, the women is choosing whether or not she wants to undergo a procedure. Also, who would trust the words of person threatening them at gunpoint. I would assume if the person was hellbent on murdering one of them he would kill them both anyway since there is nothing stopping him at that point.
And many people who believe it should be legal find it equally insane that people think it should be illegal. This only goes to show how str… moreong both sides of the arguments are on this topic.
Only that people who are against abortion, like us, do provide reasoning and proof to what we say, all the while those on here who are for abortion are people who mostly formed an opinion as a result of a personal subjective experience or pity for the mother (but not for the child), and those who tried to be objective here and be for abortion had so far failed to prove what we said wrong, basing only on their own beliefs and not scientific proof as to why a fetus isn't human to them (while it is).
Well I'm not going to even bother trying to change your views nor anyone else since that's not how I roll. I don't actively try to change the views of others since I firmly believe everyone has the right to their opinions.
And by saying tha… [view original content]
Well, that's a different and extremely rare case, so people who say that they should automatically sacrifice her life for the baby might not be entirely "pro-life", but it doesn't relate in any way to what I was talking about, which is the methodical killings of human babies despite the fact they're human in virtue of their human genome.
^ This. I've even seen people go as far as to say that the woman's life in particular should be sacrificed (if her life is in danger) to have the baby which completely contradicts being "pro life."
aware of conscious thought and doesn't begin to feel any form of pain until the thalamocortical connections between the brain and the rest of the nervous system form, which doesn't happen until the third trimester. And if abortion were illegal (in the states at least), many women who wish to undergo the procedure would still find ways to abort their child even under extreme cases.
You're right, but it doesn't matter if they feel pain or don't feel pain, you are robbing them of their potential life, that is wrong, because the moment you start to exist, no one has the right to kill you (at least if you're an innocent baby that has done no wrong to anyone).
I in now way said that he was in the wrong for holding his views nor beliefs, and I just flat out said he's free to express those beliefs as anyone can on the internet whether they are for or against abortion, so I don't know what you're talking about here.
It seemed to me like you were criticizing Belan for "actively trying to change the views of others", if not, forget I said that.
I believe individuals should be free to believe and hold whatever view they want as long as they don't act on their beliefs that could potentially harm others or control what people should do or think.
I do too, but reality is that people do act their beliefs and by doing that not only harm, but kill human beings inside the mother's womb.
If people would only think abortions are right, I would've had no problem with that, but they don't only think but also act their thoughts in violent and murderous ways by eradicating developing human beings inside the womb.
And your gun scenario in regards to another one of my posts somewhere isn't a good analogy, since the mother is being held against her will at gun point while in the abortion scenario, the women is choosing whether or not she wants to undergo a procedure.
I'll explain why the scenario was a good analogy:
I talked about a woman having to choose whether it's her life or the baby's life, as in if the birth of the baby would kill her, and not just choosing to abort the baby for variant reasons.
If it were just normal abortion for other reasons, then it wouldn't fit as you said.
Also, who would trust the words of person threatening them at gunpoint. I would assume if the person was hellbent on murdering one of them he would kill them both anyway since there is nothing stopping him at that point.
I think you're overanalyzing the situation, I was just trying to make it more easy to understand how the situation when a woman has to choose her or her child's life due to birth complications wasn't the same as willingly killing the baby without the risk of dying after delivering it, so maybe it wasn't the most clear example.
Only that people who are against abortion, like us, do provide reasoning and proof to what we say, all the while those on here who are for a… morebortion are people who mostly formed an opinion as a result of a personal subjective experience or pity for the mother (but not for the child), and those who tried to be objective here and be for abortion had so far failed to prove what we said wrong, basing only on their own beliefs and not scientific proof as to why a fetus isn't human to them (while it is)
While the links provided show that a fetus it is a human (I'm not even arguing that, I agree), the fetus itself isn't aware of conscious thought and doesn't begin to feel any form of pain until the thalamocortical connections between the brain and the rest of the nervous system form, which doesn't happen until the third trimester. And if abortion were illegal (in the states at least), many women who wish to undergo the procedure would still f… [view original content]
The problem with that is that most people who agree it should be legal around the world don't see it as being irrational or stubborn. What may be stubborn and irrational to you is not the same for everyone else, especially not me. Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist as long as humanity exists and there will always be people that have firm stances on one side or the other.
Of course they don't see it as being irrational. That goes without saying. The fact remains that they blatantly disregard all proof against them, to the point that several people here have straight up said that they don't care about proof, or scientific evidence. When their justification for the overall process has been questioned, they have been unable to reasonably justify their stance. As I have said several times now, not everything is reasonably subjective. The whole idea of no one's opinion being better or more correct than someone else just because everyone is entitled to their own opinion is simply ridiculous and lazy. If someone thought justifying cold blooded murder of innocents was a rational thing to do, you wouldn't say to that person: "Hey no worries bro, you do you". Why? Because we're civilized, rational human beings who know better and value the protection of human life. Not every action is morally subjective by our standards as civilized human beings. If abortion can be deemed to be harmful, then as civilized human beings, we should not have that process be legal. Abortion is the killing of an unborn child/ developing human being. It indisputably takes a specific, singular life away. There isn't any sort of subjective argument that can justify stealing another innocent human being's life on the idea that it makes the mother's situation less shitty. Obviously the mother's situation can be less than ideal, but that doesn't justify washing her hands of the problem at the ultimate expense of the only other innocent party in question.
(If you're going to respond to this, please don't feel the need to detail various scenarios where the mother is in a less than ideal situation. We're all very aware of these situations and we don't need them spelled out for us. I'll say again: Obviously the mother's situation can be less than ideal, but that doesn't justify washing her hands of the problem at the ultimate expense of the only other innocent party in question. Just trying to avoid wasting time as every other debate on here has followed this pattern..)
And for the record, people aren't saying you should be quite about it, your free to argue and show your beliefs regarding the matter as other people are who hold their views opposite to yours on this topic.
I was only saying that no amount of people being stubborn in their beliefs would keep me from going about trying to change their minds. Considering you have been trying to push the fact that this topic is apparently subjective, it seems pretty odd that you would do this without trying to make the point that there is no reason to debate the topic. It seems odd that you would have brought up the stubbornness of others if you weren't basically trying to tell me that I was wasting my time. But hey, it's all good.
Abortion isn't black and white. Just because you may consider it wrong for every case scenario doesn't mean others do, and certainly not the law.
I never said it was black and white, and I don't necessarily consider it wrong in every case scenario. We've been over this already. The only singular case where the procedure is rationally justifiable is in the case where the mother will almost inevitably die from going through with the pregnancy. I explained in my previous post that I find this to be a morally gray area, as either way someone is essentially being forced to die. I specifically find the procedure being justifiable in regards to someone being raped and then faced with almost inevitable death if she were to go through with the pregnancy. It's still a terrible thing, but ultimately it's more or less morally gray as someone is being forced to die in the situation. In general though, the process is not justifiable, for reasons I have already explained. It also isn't really reasonably subjective for reasons I have already explained.
And as Tinni said above: "...in the event the mother's life is in actual danger due to the pregnancy, and there is absolutely nothing more modern medicine can do to prevent her death, then this would be the only exception to the rule, but it doesn't change the rule."
Regardless of this one exception, the procedure should not be legal in general. It makes no sense to legalize it in general for one rare sort of exception to the rule.
And many people who believe it should be legal find it equally insane that people think it should be illegal. This only goes to show how strong both sides of the arguments are on this topic.
Already addressed this point in this current post.
Well I'm not going to even bother trying to change your views nor anyone else since that's not how I roll. I don't actively try to change the views of others since I firmly believe everyone has the right to their opinions.
I believe everyone has a right to their opinion as well, and I respect that. That being said, not all opinions are correct or rational, and this opens them to being challenged, especially if those opinions are harmful ones (to the extent that we're debating the killing of human life).
I'll debate the issue as long as it continues to exist. The idea of people's beliefs being unchangeable basically no matter what just scream… mores irrational.
The problem with that is that most people who agree it should be legal around the world don't see it as being irrational or stubborn. What may be stubborn and irrational to you is not the same for everyone else, especially not me. Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist as long as humanity exists and there will always be people that have firm stances on one side or the other. And for the record, people aren't saying you should be quite about it, your free to argue and show your beliefs regarding the matter as other people are who hold their views opposite to yours on this topic.
Anything that isn't factual is subjective. That isn't to say we shouldn't have a set right from wrong.
I never said we shouldn't. However, again, abortion i… [view original content]
If you can't answer me seriously, don't call me out for hypocrisy.
Calling someone out for what they said then not giving them a serious answer really boils my blood.
Why? I mean... This thread was made for arguing about whether abortion is right or wrong, I see no other thread this topic would suit, is it possible that you just don't want to admit you can't refute what I said? Because I would love to hear why I'm wrong, I truly would, I don't want to live my life not knowing why I'm wrong about something like this.
I can refute you but I don't care to enough to do it. Oh and making it seem like i'm scared or wrong in order to get into an argument with me doesn't work or at least not today.
Why? I mean... This thread was made for arguing about whether abortion is right or wrong, I see no other thread this topic would suit, is it… more possible that you just don't want to admit you can't refute what I said? Because I would love to hear why I'm wrong, I truly would, I don't want to live my life not knowing why I'm wrong about something like this.
But if you can't, that's alright
Well, I'm going to have to assume you can't if you don't.
You're wrong unless you prove me differently, isn't that how you rule out possibilities? I don't see how that won't make sense.
I don't want to do it for arguments , or to make you seem look.. I want to make it clear why I think abortions are wrong, and the things related to that, that's why I wanted to hear what you have to say about it, I'm curious.
I can refute you but I don't care to enough to do it. Oh and making it seem like i'm scared or wrong in order to get into an argument with me doesn't work or at least not today.
Again, have a good day.
You keep saying that if I don't prove my point then you got to assume it's wrong, go on ahead, I don't care.
I think you've made it clear enough already, I don't care about this subject and I don't appreciate you being one sided and calling Pro-Choice people hypocrites and assuming you're all okay because you think it. I don't care, I don't want to get into fights, you should respect that.
Well, I'm going to have to assume you can't if you don't.
You're wrong unless you prove me differently, isn't that how you rule out possi… morebilities? I don't see how that won't make sense.
I don't want to do it for arguments , or to make you seem look.. I want to make it clear why I think abortions are wrong, and the things related to that, that's why I wanted to hear what you have to say about it, I'm curious.
I'm not being one-sided, because if you were to prove me wrong, I wouldn't stick to my side but admit I was wrong - the only problem is that you didn't.
Not all of us are ok, not all of you are ok, I don't even like to put people in groups because it's more than just two absolute sides, there are mixtures of opinions on this, people who are for abortions will still have inner conflicts as well as those against them... But yes, unless you prove me why what I said is not ok, I will have to come to the conclusion that it is ok.
You don't have to get into a "fight" every time you debate on something, I didn't get into a fight with anyone here yet, and if you don't want to get into a fight that much you can simply ignore everything I'm saying, even though I'm not trying to start a meaningless fight that escalates to insults, I am trying to have what most people would call a debate about something I find important, and seeing you commented about it not a small amount of times, I thought you did, too.
Let me repeat that, you don't "fight" every time you argue on a subject.
You keep saying that if I don't prove my point then you got to assume it's wrong, go on ahead, I don't care.
I think you've made it clear… more enough already, I don't care about this subject and I don't appreciate you being one sided and calling Pro-Choice people hypocrites and assuming you're all okay because you think it. I don't care, I don't want to get into fights, you should respect that.
I'm not being one-sided, because if you were to prove me wrong, I wouldn't stick to my side but admit I was wrong - the only problem is that… more you didn't.
Not all of us are ok, not all of you are ok, I don't even like to put people in groups because it's more than just two absolute sides, there are mixtures of opinions on this, people who are for abortions will still have inner conflicts as well as those against them... But yes, unless you prove me why what I said is not ok, I will have to come to the conclusion that it is ok.
You don't have to get into a "fight" every time you debate on something, I didn't get into a fight with anyone here yet, and if you don't want to get into a fight that much you can simply ignore everything I'm saying, even though I'm not trying to start a meaningless fight that escalates to insults, I am trying to have what most people would call a debate about something I find important, and seeing you commented ab… [view original content]
You do understand that every time I say something you just contradict it by empty statements with little to no meaning, right? lmao xD
Again, if you really wanted to stop this you could have done it already, you wouldn't have replied to me, so you either just want to put in the last word or you don't really want to stop..
If you think less of someone because they're pro-choice, then I'm not sure how to respond to that. I don't think it's fair to demonize someone for having a different way of thinking.
Abortion is not a solution to fixing life's problems. I don't understand why people can't take responsibility for what they do, if someone chooses to have sex, get pregnant, call it fetus, a clump of cells, however you wish to describe it, but the fact is, that clump of cells will develop into a person, who will bleed, breathe, think, feel, love hate, just like the rest of us. I understand people why people use that terminology, i guess in my mind they're trying to rationalize their guilt away.
I look at my five year old nephew, he could of been aborted. What a mistake that would of been. He is so smart, he is able to organize my playlist on netflix, or transfer music to my mp3 player. He is the cutest little boy you ever met. I don't demonize people that had abortions, i feel sorry for them, they never will know what they're child could of been. Who they would of grown up to, or fallen in love with.
I know I stopped going over this a while ago, but I'd like to add one last thing due to the recent conversations.
Just because I'm pro-ch… moreoice it doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion/death. I support the mother's right to have the choice of what do to with her potential child. You're free to value life as much as you do, and I respect that. I just hate seeing all the moral high ground in this thread. I have no intention of arguing over what's right or wrong. I said how I felt about the subject, left it at that, and I cannot be swayed. Debating is fine, but I really hope no one here is trying to change anyone else's viewpoint.
Edit: I should have clarified. There's a fine line between respectfully telling the opposing party why you disagree and shoving your beliefs down their throat. The latter is not something I can respect or tolerate. If the person doesn't want to change, it's useless to attempt to force them. That practically erases the poin… [view original content]
We can keep going around in circles all day with this topic. I still stand firmly in my beliefs that it should be legal in specific cases such as rape, incest, etc. because I see the life of a woman (a person already present in the here and now of the world with hopes and dreams) more valuable than a potential fetus
that is less than three months old. If that makes me a monster, stubborn, irrational or whatever than so be it.
Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist along with humanity, and many people already have a strong position on one side or the other. And like I mentioned before, I'm not here to change the minds of people who think the opposite of me. Just sharing my views.
The problem with that is that most people who agree it should be legal around the world don't see it as being irrational or stubborn. What m… moreay be stubborn and irrational to you is not the same for everyone else, especially not me. Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist as long as humanity exists and there will always be people that have firm stances on one side or the other.
Of course they don't see it as being irrational. That goes without saying. The fact remains that they blatantly disregard all proof against them, to the point that several people here have straight up said that they don't care about proof, or scientific evidence. When their justification for the overall process has been questioned, they have been unable to reasonably justify their stance. As I have said several times now, not everything is reasonably subjective. The whole idea of no one's opinion being better or more correct … [view original content]
How does this have anything to do with justifying the procedure? If the procedure is deemed immoral and consequently illegal, then the fact that your mom's friend died trying to work around the law is totally irrelevant (though tragic, if that story is in fact true).
My mothers friend in High School (this is when abortion was illegal) got pregnant with her boyfriend (They used protection) and was freaked … moreout, having a baby is a painful process she didnt want to go through at 16, so she went to a doctor for help. She asked for an illegal abortion and was denied, she went home, took some pills and tried to preform an abortian on herself with a hanger and some sewing needles. Hours later she was found in her room... dead from blood loss.
Ever since i heard this story ive been "pro choice", i dont think "pro life is very pro life" because if the pro life law wasnt in effect she will still be alive.
We can keep going around in circles all day with this topic.
We could, but it shouldn't come to that as all of these "pro choice" arguments have been entirely shot down. Not trying to be an asshole, only saying it like it is, and I honestly don't know any other way to put it. As I said in my previous post, not everything is subjective. Not everyone's opinion is correct just because we're discussing a controversial topic and "everyone has a right to their opinion".
(Explained all of this in more detail in my previous post)
I still stand firmly in my beliefs that it should be legal in specific cases such as rape, incest
It shouldn't be legal even in the case of rape. As I said before, obviously this is a terrible situation for the mother, but you can't justify her denying an unborn baby their life based on the fact that the circumstances of their conception were not ideal. The mother shouldn't get to wash her hands of her troubles as if they never happened at the expense of another human being's life, and the only other innocent party to the situation. All that is doing is creating another victim. A victim of murder. Again, the mother's situation would sure as hell be difficult, but this does not justify killing someone. There is zero rationality to that argument based upon our reasonable standards as human beings. You're arguing that the mother is justified to kill someone over entirely selfish reasons where her own life isn't even in question (in the sense of her living or dying).
I see the life of a woman (a person already present in the here and now of the world with hopes and dreams) more valuable than a potential fetus that is less than three months old.
The devaluation of life is just disturbing. As human beings we should value and protect the lives of our fellow human beings, no matter their stage of development. You can't justify robbing someone of their life based on their stage of development. That is just irrational. Either way you're killing human life in exchange for making someone's situation a little better for themselves. It's unfair, and unjustifiable. I have yet to see any "pro choice" defender give rational justification for otherwise. I have yet to see anyone defend abortion as anything else other than poorly excused convenient murder.
Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist along with humanity, and many people already have a strong position on one side or the other.
I wonder if they used to say similar things about controversial topics such as slavery..
We can keep going around in circles all day with this topic. I still stand firmly in my beliefs that it should be legal in specific cases su… morech as rape, incest, etc. because I see the life of a woman (a person already present in the here and now of the world with hopes and dreams) more valuable than a potential fetus
that is less than three months old. If that makes me a monster, stubborn, irrational or whatever than so be it.
Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist along with humanity, and many people already have a strong position on one side or the other. And like I mentioned before, I'm not here to change the minds of people who think the opposite of me. Just sharing my views.
I think everyone made great points so I'll keep it short
Like in my country abortion should not be legal unless of rape or the women life is in danger life is precious and should be seen as so opening up that possibilities could restrict the birth of so many great people due to rash decisions by scared mothers
I believe a child deserves a chance at life and deserves that protection
It justifies it because id rather abortions be legal and being safely performed than being illegal and being unsafely performed leading to the death of the fetus AND the mother (not just the fetus). The procedure isnt something that should be praised, but it should be legal.. because even if it is illegal it will still happen and in many cases in extremely unsafe conditions.
And im curious why youd think id lie about a story that tragic?
How does this have anything to do with justifying the procedure? If the procedure is deemed immoral and consequently illegal, then the fact … morethat your mom's friend died trying to work around the law is totally irrelevant (though tragic, if that story is in fact true).
Well, that's a different and extremely rare case, so people who say that they should automatically sacrifice her life for the baby might not… more be entirely "pro-life", but it doesn't relate in any way to what I was talking about, which is the methodical killings of human babies despite the fact they're human in virtue of their human genome.
Comments
I wasn't really discussing, I'm really bad at internet arguments so I rather not get into them...However, I will state my opinion on things.
My mothers friend in High School (this is when abortion was illegal) got pregnant with her boyfriend (They used protection) and was freaked out, having a baby is a painful process she didnt want to go through at 16, so she went to a doctor for help. She asked for an illegal abortion and was denied, she went home, took some pills and tried to preform an abortian on herself with a hanger and some sewing needles. Hours later she was found in her room... dead from blood loss.
Ever since i heard this story ive been "pro choice", i dont think "pro life is very pro life" because if the pro life law wasnt in effect she will still be alive.
I don't support it personally. There's two or more people that are going to be affected either way. It depends on how you see it though.
I don't see the problem with being "pro-birth".
Sure, if I could help every abortion survivor in the world I would, but we can't just fix this world like that, can we?
Children in Africa are starving to death, does that mean we should go to Africa and shoot every child just because their life is bad?
I want to give them a chance at life, and you seem to be against it.
So, no, there are no hypocrisies on giving human beings their natural rights, not that I'm aware of.
If you want respect, you gotta be willing to give it.
If you don't respect the values and opinions of others, they will not respect yours.
I'm just saying how it is!
The problem with that is that most people who agree it should be legal around the world don't see it as being irrational or stubborn. What may be stubborn and irrational to you is not the same for everyone else, especially not me. Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist as long as humanity exists and there will always be people that have firm stances on one side or the other. And for the record, people aren't saying you should be quite about it, your free to argue and show your beliefs regarding the matter as other people are who hold their views opposite to yours on this topic.
I never said we shouldn't. However, again, abortion isn't black and white. Just because you may consider it wrong for every case scenario doesn't mean others do, and certainly not the law. It's safe to say that most who believe it should be legal are the people in favor of it in those extreme cases I mentioned in my other post including people who are 100% against it. You even said so yourself under a specific condition. That's what I'm talking about.
And many people who believe it should be legal find it equally insane that people think it should be illegal. This only goes to show how strong both sides of the arguments are on this topic.
Well I'm not going to even bother trying to change your views nor anyone else since that's not how I roll. I don't actively try to change the views of others since I firmly believe everyone has the right to their opinions. And like I said before, I don't consider the act of abortion being legal irrational in the slightest sense, and what you "know to be right" isn't the case for the majority.
Fine. I'm not asking for any respect from someone who thinks what happened to the woman in the article is acceptable. Judge me how you like folks, I'm done trying to care.
Anyway, I'm finished with this thread. All it does now is disgust me.
Only that people who are against abortion, like us, do provide reasoning and proof to what we say, all the while those on here who are for abortion are people who mostly formed an opinion as a result of a personal subjective experience or pity for the mother (but not for the child), and those who tried to be objective here and be for abortion had so far failed to prove what we said wrong, basing only on their own beliefs and not scientific proof as to why a fetus isn't human to them (while it is).
And by saying that you're implying that Belan is doing something wrong, if he tries to stop methodical of unborn children? If you were to hear someone agrees with murder, wouldn't you try to change their view? He's not forcing anything, he's just saying what he thinks on the internet.
Lol, sure buddy.
Wow, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I somewhat agree with you. I'm even more shocked to say I slightly agree with somebody from the Reagan Administration... Probably not on the whole issue, but I agree rape and life of the mother are too often used to try and skirt around the real issue.
Yep..
If you can't answer me seriously, don't call me out for hypocrisy.
Calling someone out for what they said then not giving them a serious answer really boils my blood.
I never thought I'd say this, but Chris Christie is right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK1LW10nqp0
He's talking largely about drug addiction, but it applies to other situations. For all those people who are pro-life, how many of them are going to be willing to their taxes raised to afford healthcare for a new baby? How many of them are willing to pay for food stamps when a single mother's salary is insufficient? How many of them are willing to share their financial resources to ensure that those children are properly clothed, fed, educated, and employed? And before people go on about 'well, it's her responsibility,' remember what Christie said about people being flawed and making mistakes, and that if you're truly pro-life even after birth you'd be willing to reach out a helping hand.
But no, for most pro-life people, the first cry of a newborn baby is the sound last they ever want to hear from them.
I don't think that the taxes would raise drastically, but I would find a way to pay the taxes even if it rose.
If there will be any way I could help, I would, but being pro-life isn't just wanting the baby to be born and then abandoning them with their own problems.
See, we want to give them the opportunity like we got it ourselves, there are struggling families and kids who we don't help because we simply can't help everyone, we want every baby to have a good life, and if they will live a tough life due to any circumstance, helping them is something that should be done but it doesn't mean that if we don't help them, they would be better off dead.
We don't go into Africa and euthanize Ebola patients and sick kids, are we?
It's the same thing, most children who will be born instead of aborted will either be raised by their families or given up for adoption, taxes might rise a little but what can you do about it? If we don't want to pay a lot of money to the government because supporting the poor is too much for us, we might as well just kill off more of the population to ease the financial burden, because doing that or aborting a babies because times are already hard to get by is the same thing.
So... Yes, of course I would help, (cue Brenda St. John accent) it's how I was raised and how I'll raise my boys.
Lol, it is a nice sentence.
He was banned xD
While the links provided show that a fetus it is a human (I'm not even arguing that, I agree), the fetus itself isn't aware of conscious thought and doesn't begin to feel any form of pain until the thalamocortical connections between the brain and the rest of the nervous system form, which doesn't happen until the third trimester. And if abortion were illegal (in the states at least), many women who wish to undergo the procedure would still find ways to abort their child even under extreme cases.
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429
And most women (about 92% them) who choose to have abortions do so before the first trimester .
http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
How did you get this from what I said? I in now way said that he was in the wrong for holding his views nor beliefs, and I just flat out said he's free to express those beliefs as anyone can on the internet whether they are for or against abortion, so I don't know what you're talking about here. And about your murder comparison, unfortunately I can't control how people think. Now if they were to actively try to murder someone, of course I would stop them, dissuade them or whatever to the best of my ability. I'll rephrase what I said. I believe individuals should be free to believe and hold whatever view they want as long as they don't act on their beliefs that could potentially harm others or control what people should do or think.
And your gun scenario in regards to another one of my posts somewhere isn't a good analogy, since the mother is being held against her will at gun point while in the abortion scenario, the women is choosing whether or not she wants to undergo a procedure. Also, who would trust the words of person threatening them at gunpoint. I would assume if the person was hellbent on murdering one of them he would kill them both anyway since there is nothing stopping him at that point.
Well, that's a different and extremely rare case, so people who say that they should automatically sacrifice her life for the baby might not be entirely "pro-life", but it doesn't relate in any way to what I was talking about, which is the methodical killings of human babies despite the fact they're human in virtue of their human genome.
You're right, but it doesn't matter if they feel pain or don't feel pain, you are robbing them of their potential life, that is wrong, because the moment you start to exist, no one has the right to kill you (at least if you're an innocent baby that has done no wrong to anyone).
It seemed to me like you were criticizing Belan for "actively trying to change the views of others", if not, forget I said that.
I do too, but reality is that people do act their beliefs and by doing that not only harm, but kill human beings inside the mother's womb.
If people would only think abortions are right, I would've had no problem with that, but they don't only think but also act their thoughts in violent and murderous ways by eradicating developing human beings inside the womb.
I'll explain why the scenario was a good analogy:
I talked about a woman having to choose whether it's her life or the baby's life, as in if the birth of the baby would kill her, and not just choosing to abort the baby for variant reasons.
If it were just normal abortion for other reasons, then it wouldn't fit as you said.
I think you're overanalyzing the situation, I was just trying to make it more easy to understand how the situation when a woman has to choose her or her child's life due to birth complications wasn't the same as willingly killing the baby without the risk of dying after delivering it, so maybe it wasn't the most clear example.
Everyone pays the consequences, if its in this life or the next.
Of course they don't see it as being irrational. That goes without saying. The fact remains that they blatantly disregard all proof against them, to the point that several people here have straight up said that they don't care about proof, or scientific evidence. When their justification for the overall process has been questioned, they have been unable to reasonably justify their stance. As I have said several times now, not everything is reasonably subjective. The whole idea of no one's opinion being better or more correct than someone else just because everyone is entitled to their own opinion is simply ridiculous and lazy. If someone thought justifying cold blooded murder of innocents was a rational thing to do, you wouldn't say to that person: "Hey no worries bro, you do you". Why? Because we're civilized, rational human beings who know better and value the protection of human life. Not every action is morally subjective by our standards as civilized human beings. If abortion can be deemed to be harmful, then as civilized human beings, we should not have that process be legal. Abortion is the killing of an unborn child/ developing human being. It indisputably takes a specific, singular life away. There isn't any sort of subjective argument that can justify stealing another innocent human being's life on the idea that it makes the mother's situation less shitty. Obviously the mother's situation can be less than ideal, but that doesn't justify washing her hands of the problem at the ultimate expense of the only other innocent party in question.
(If you're going to respond to this, please don't feel the need to detail various scenarios where the mother is in a less than ideal situation. We're all very aware of these situations and we don't need them spelled out for us. I'll say again: Obviously the mother's situation can be less than ideal, but that doesn't justify washing her hands of the problem at the ultimate expense of the only other innocent party in question. Just trying to avoid wasting time as every other debate on here has followed this pattern..)
I was only saying that no amount of people being stubborn in their beliefs would keep me from going about trying to change their minds. Considering you have been trying to push the fact that this topic is apparently subjective, it seems pretty odd that you would do this without trying to make the point that there is no reason to debate the topic. It seems odd that you would have brought up the stubbornness of others if you weren't basically trying to tell me that I was wasting my time. But hey, it's all good.
I never said it was black and white, and I don't necessarily consider it wrong in every case scenario. We've been over this already. The only singular case where the procedure is rationally justifiable is in the case where the mother will almost inevitably die from going through with the pregnancy. I explained in my previous post that I find this to be a morally gray area, as either way someone is essentially being forced to die. I specifically find the procedure being justifiable in regards to someone being raped and then faced with almost inevitable death if she were to go through with the pregnancy. It's still a terrible thing, but ultimately it's more or less morally gray as someone is being forced to die in the situation. In general though, the process is not justifiable, for reasons I have already explained. It also isn't really reasonably subjective for reasons I have already explained.
And as Tinni said above: "...in the event the mother's life is in actual danger due to the pregnancy, and there is absolutely nothing more modern medicine can do to prevent her death, then this would be the only exception to the rule, but it doesn't change the rule."
Regardless of this one exception, the procedure should not be legal in general. It makes no sense to legalize it in general for one rare sort of exception to the rule.
Already addressed this point in this current post.
I believe everyone has a right to their opinion as well, and I respect that. That being said, not all opinions are correct or rational, and this opens them to being challenged, especially if those opinions are harmful ones (to the extent that we're debating the killing of human life).
I called you out and am still not giving you a serious answer as I find arguing on this thread a waste of my time.
Have a good day.
Why? I mean... This thread was made for arguing about whether abortion is right or wrong, I see no other thread this topic would suit, is it possible that you just don't want to admit you can't refute what I said? Because I would love to hear why I'm wrong, I truly would, I don't want to live my life not knowing why I'm wrong about something like this.
But if you can't, that's alright
I can refute you but I don't care to enough to do it. Oh and making it seem like i'm scared or wrong in order to get into an argument with me doesn't work or at least not today.
Again, have a good day.
Well, I'm going to have to assume you can't if you don't.
You're wrong unless you prove me differently, isn't that how you rule out possibilities? I don't see how that won't make sense.
I don't want to do it for arguments , or to make you seem look..
I want to make it clear why I think abortions are wrong, and the things related to that, that's why I wanted to hear what you have to say about it, I'm curious.
You keep saying that if I don't prove my point then you got to assume it's wrong, go on ahead, I don't care.
I think you've made it clear enough already, I don't care about this subject and I don't appreciate you being one sided and calling Pro-Choice people hypocrites and assuming you're all okay because you think it. I don't care, I don't want to get into fights, you should respect that.
I'm not being one-sided, because if you were to prove me wrong, I wouldn't stick to my side but admit I was wrong - the only problem is that you didn't.
Not all of us are ok, not all of you are ok, I don't even like to put people in groups because it's more than just two absolute sides, there are mixtures of opinions on this, people who are for abortions will still have inner conflicts as well as those against them... But yes, unless you prove me why what I said is not ok, I will have to come to the conclusion that it is ok.
You don't have to get into a "fight" every time you debate on something, I didn't get into a fight with anyone here yet, and if you don't want to get into a fight that much you can simply ignore everything I'm saying, even though I'm not trying to start a meaningless fight that escalates to insults, I am trying to have what most people would call a debate about something I find important, and seeing you commented about it not a small amount of times, I thought you did, too.
Let me repeat that, you don't "fight" every time you argue on a subject.
You can't point out something and then not explain it... That's meaningless...
Whatever, I didn't want to debate with anyone, I just wanted to point out your hypocrisy, which I did. Accept it or not, I don't care.
Bye.
You said why, I refuted you, and you didn't "care enough" to do the same, "not caring" is meaningless, it's a dead end.
Seems like it didn't to you.
"Refuted"
Believe what you must, there's no point in keeping this going, BYE.
You do understand that every time I say something you just contradict it by empty statements with little to no meaning, right? lmao xD
Again, if you really wanted to stop this you could have done it already, you wouldn't have replied to me, so you either just want to put in the last word or you don't really want to stop..
Abortion is not a solution to fixing life's problems. I don't understand why people can't take responsibility for what they do, if someone chooses to have sex, get pregnant, call it fetus, a clump of cells, however you wish to describe it, but the fact is, that clump of cells will develop into a person, who will bleed, breathe, think, feel, love hate, just like the rest of us. I understand people why people use that terminology, i guess in my mind they're trying to rationalize their guilt away.
I look at my five year old nephew, he could of been aborted. What a mistake that would of been. He is so smart, he is able to organize my playlist on netflix, or transfer music to my mp3 player. He is the cutest little boy you ever met. I don't demonize people that had abortions, i feel sorry for them, they never will know what they're child could of been. Who they would of grown up to, or fallen in love with.
Sad, such is life.
We can keep going around in circles all day with this topic. I still stand firmly in my beliefs that it should be legal in specific cases such as rape, incest, etc. because I see the life of a woman (a person already present in the here and now of the world with hopes and dreams) more valuable than a potential fetus
that is less than three months old. If that makes me a monster, stubborn, irrational or whatever than so be it.
Like I said before, this is a controversial topic that will continue to exist along with humanity, and many people already have a strong position on one side or the other. And like I mentioned before, I'm not here to change the minds of people who think the opposite of me. Just sharing my views.
How does this have anything to do with justifying the procedure? If the procedure is deemed immoral and consequently illegal, then the fact that your mom's friend died trying to work around the law is totally irrelevant (though tragic, if that story is in fact true).
We could, but it shouldn't come to that as all of these "pro choice" arguments have been entirely shot down. Not trying to be an asshole, only saying it like it is, and I honestly don't know any other way to put it. As I said in my previous post, not everything is subjective. Not everyone's opinion is correct just because we're discussing a controversial topic and "everyone has a right to their opinion".
(Explained all of this in more detail in my previous post)
It shouldn't be legal even in the case of rape. As I said before, obviously this is a terrible situation for the mother, but you can't justify her denying an unborn baby their life based on the fact that the circumstances of their conception were not ideal. The mother shouldn't get to wash her hands of her troubles as if they never happened at the expense of another human being's life, and the only other innocent party to the situation. All that is doing is creating another victim. A victim of murder. Again, the mother's situation would sure as hell be difficult, but this does not justify killing someone. There is zero rationality to that argument based upon our reasonable standards as human beings. You're arguing that the mother is justified to kill someone over entirely selfish reasons where her own life isn't even in question (in the sense of her living or dying).
The devaluation of life is just disturbing. As human beings we should value and protect the lives of our fellow human beings, no matter their stage of development. You can't justify robbing someone of their life based on their stage of development. That is just irrational. Either way you're killing human life in exchange for making someone's situation a little better for themselves. It's unfair, and unjustifiable. I have yet to see any "pro choice" defender give rational justification for otherwise. I have yet to see anyone defend abortion as anything else other than poorly excused convenient murder.
I wonder if they used to say similar things about controversial topics such as slavery..
I think everyone made great points so I'll keep it short
Like in my country abortion should not be legal unless of rape or the women life is in danger life is precious and should be seen as so opening up that possibilities could restrict the birth of so many great people due to rash decisions by scared mothers
I believe a child deserves a chance at life and deserves that protection
It justifies it because id rather abortions be legal and being safely performed than being illegal and being unsafely performed leading to the death of the fetus AND the mother (not just the fetus). The procedure isnt something that should be praised, but it should be legal.. because even if it is illegal it will still happen and in many cases in extremely unsafe conditions.
And im curious why youd think id lie about a story that tragic?
How is pro life making abortions illegal which leads to cases were the mother and the fetus die, , or the mother gets HIV/AIDS.
I'm sorry but thats not pro life, thats pro birth imo.