I Now Feel That I Want Revenge and Handsome Jack Was Right
After I played episode 3 I now hate the Vault Hunters I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they are the new enemies I mean I like the concept of it and I mean Fiona would want to get revenge against Brick and Mordecai and all other Vault Hunters and it makes Handsome Jack Not Such a Bad Guy(He is though,but his words about the Vault Hunters are True)I would Iove to be the bad guys if it means I can face the Vault Hunters including if given the option say to Fiona to join Hyperion to get revenge against the Vault Hunters I mean Fiona did say Sasha "You Will Be Looking At Pandora From Space". Also I remember Sasha wanted to know from Rhys perspective what does Pandora look like from Helios I mean I'm a Rhysha fan and I would love to give Sasha and Fiona the opportunity to join Hyperion for escaping Pandora which Sasha wants and Fiona Wanting Revenge against the Vault Hunters.Also I would make a Alliance With Jack If it means getting back at the Vault Hunters
Comments
....The Vault Hunters haven't actually done that much to the Tales gang. Brick and Mordecai came after Athena because they were ordered to do so by Lilith (who is a irrational, unpredictable and a total b*tch at this point in time). Zer0 for his part was actually helpful, and Athena was our guardian angel and Fionas tutor throughout ep3.
VH's are just mercs and everyone has their own reasons and ways of doing things. Can't really see them collectively as enemies myself. Untill we actually find a vault key, that is. Cut-throat competition is literal on Pandora.
Plus, Fiona is well on her way to become a VH herself. My Fiona finds this develpment AWESOME!
Who's evil or good is just a matter of perspective. Which can be really interesting in the Borderlands Universe, everyone thinks of themselves as the good guys or heroes of the story.
I really liked Mordecai and Brick in Bl2 but they pissed me off this time, Lilith is a different story, she's disgusting, hope we won't see her. x)
Agreed.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa WHOA!
Hey, Jack may WAY more sympathetic here, but remember, he can possess your body and alienate your friends, and he was still the WORST. PERSON. PANDORA. HAS. EVER. SEEN.
Alright, here's stuff he's done IN BORDERLANDS 2 AND THE PRE-SEQUEL:
Now, the reason why Mordy and Brick came in to kidnap Lilith? Well, at the beginning of the Pre-Sequel, Lilith kidnaps Athena so Athena can tell the entire story of what happened between Borderlands 1 and Borderlands 2, and how Jack turned into Handsome Jack, or Space Stalin. They're still good guys, by the way, and help you defeat Jack in Borderlands 2.
Also, most of the Vault Hunters ARE. NOT. EVIL. All of them have their faults, but some of them are outright heroic at times, such as Maya. You want evil Vault Hunters? You get to fight Wilhelm and Nisha in Borderlands 2. But that's it. They may be mercenaries, but they don't go around mutating families for fun, stabbing children or forcing Mordecai to kill his pet bird, OK? And if the Vault Hunters became enemies, the players are going to rage. Because killing your favourite Vault Hunter is extremely painful, trust me.
Besides, Zer0 did NOTHING to kill Rhys and actually saved his ass/thanked him several times. And Athena acted as a teacher.
Finally, I'm absolutely sick and tired of seeing posts like this going on how the Vault Hunters are evil and Jack is actually the hero and I want to bang his brains out, blah blah blah. A little reminder: Jack WANTED to release The Warrior so he could kill everyone and make Pandora into an egotistical 1984-style planet where everyone bowed to him as a god. The Vault Hunters SAVED Pandora before that could even happen! Why would you want to kill the mercenaries who've done so much to protect a Wild West planet that almost nobody cares about!
WHY?
The only Vault Hunter who can actually be considered a bad person right now is Lilith (Obviously Wilhelm and Nisha as well, but they're dead so...) on account of her actions toward Athena during TPS. Brick and Mordecai didn't kill Athena, they aren't dragging her away to torture her or demean her or tie her to some railroad tracks while they twirl their villainous moustaches and cackle with glee. They captured her to find out about how Jack rose to power, as seen in TPS. Hell, they spent years fighting Handsome Jack, the most evil man Pandora has ever seen, and lost friends and nearly died trying to free Pandora of his tyranny. They aren't saints but they're far from being evil.
What is with it with everyone suddenly thinking that the Vault Hunters are evil? They're morally dubious guns for hire, yes, but being on the opposing side doesn't make them bad guys. They've done more good for Pandora than anyone else in the series, even if their major motivating factors included getting tons of action and loot.
I cannot agree with this post more (Well, except for maybe the part about Roland kind of deserving to be killed )': ). Ever since TPS there seems to be this idea that because Jack was betrayed by Roland, Lilith, and Moxxi that the VHs are actually the bad guys and Episode 3 seems to have exacerbated the idea. Jack has done SOOOOOO much more evil than they have but for some reason people prefer to brush his crimes, which include everything up to and including attempted genocide, under the rug for some reason.
Well, she might have gone all asshole-ish due to Eridium. Zarpedon was exposed to it, and soon a massive army of tens of thousands is trying to blow up the moon.
Now, consider Lilith's frequent Eridium use, and Roland's death, and how she behaved in Borderlands 2. Sure, she had a small god complex, but she quickly brushed it off when Matchstick got "sacrificed" and she did say that she HATED being a god at the end of the sidequest arc.
Roland's death was important, because it made her upset and angry, and she was very happy to see him again, and actually concerned about him.
Basically, what I'm saying is that Lilith isn't an evil bastard now-she's grieving, she's gone rather mad and, hey, if you happened to be responsible for a 3-year war that turned Pandora into 1984 and killed billions of people, your first instinct would be to deflect the blame. She wants Athena dead, because she's horribly guilty, and so she projects it onto her. And keep it mind that she's gone slightly nuts.
Well, it was revealed that Lilith punched Jack in the face, kicking off a war that lasted for 3-years, Pandora going Orwellian and billions of people dying.
Soooo, suddenly, people were flipping off Lilith and Roland, and Borderlands Confessions was suddenly flooded with people who decided to say that they never liked Lilith or Moxxi or Roland for some crazy reason. Oh, and Jack fans went berserk and started yelling on how Jack was actually a good guy you should hug like Loki. It got toxic ridiculously fast. And I hated the effing war that followed.
Also, THIS IS WHY PEOPLE SHOULD DO SOME FREAKING RESEARCH BEFOREHAND-Lilith behaved like a hero in BL2, and was on your good side. Eridum use warped minds-just see what it did to Zarpedon! And also, Roland's death clearly had a massive impact on Lilith. You'd be upset if you rescued your boyfriend, only to see him get shot a week or even a couple of days later. As for the god complex? She got rid of it after that sidequest arc-I'll just state it now. She says "Man, being a god SUCKS!" Finally, she's clearly guilty that she caused so much death and destruction, and the Eridium must have wrecked her mind a bit, so she's acting irrational and angry in The Pre Sequel, and projecting it onto Athena.
Well, Jack's very charming, despite being a dickhead. Of course people would adore him like Loki, and then make insane excuses to show that he's a misunderstood man that is actually a GREAT father.
The Pre-Sequel certainly boosted that idea, with Jack given more sympathy and the whatnot. For a moment, I actually thought Jack could be fully redeemed.
Then I started my new Axton playthrough, Jack came on, and that theory smashed its head on a rock and died.
I see your point, and I can understand the Roland part. But I never liked her in the first place, and what made me hate her happened in TPS, when she didn't have a reason to be such an asshole. She ruined everything. But yeah, it's not black and white, basically no one is a good guy in the Bl universe.
Again I find myself agreeing with you almost unconditionally. To clear up something, I don't personally think that Lilith is a bad person, but I can see why some might because of how she wanted Athena executed, and nothing else. Destroying the Eye of Helios, punching Jack in the face was entirely justified.
New episodes has a habit of bringing familiar faces back, doesnt it?
I think people confuse the Jack we meet at the beginning of TPS, who is a fairly good guy with ambition by Borderlands standards (yes, yes i haven't forgotten Angel....), with the the completely psychotic ball of murder that is Handsome Jack. And completely ignore how Jacks mind progressively breaks during TPS. Liliths final insult was just the icing on an already insane cake. I have sympathy for Jack. I think he WAS a relatively decent person but i don't ignore his development in to a psychotic monster even if he is funny hell. The VH's aren't 'good guys' but they are more or less sane and rational (Krieg not included) and are just trying to make a living in an incredibly harsh world. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative. Sane and insane are not.
(Still think killing all the claptraps is a heroic deed, though :P )
Killing the Claptraps was the most heroic thing he'd ever done. Strange how it happened only after he became completely evil.
I make no secret of my dislike of Lilith, but i can see why she acts like she does. Guilt, trauma and loss. She's got a really ugly streak in her personality, but she isn't the worst person to grace Pandora.
Now Moxxi on the other hand.....every time she talks i get an image like this in my mind:
I have the impression that she's no less power hungry and ruthless than Handsome Jack ever was but was but she is coldy rational with how she goes about it and that scares the bejeezus out of me.
Their plan was actually pretty damn stupid, even by my standards.
Also, if they really wanted him dead, Lilith should have brought a rocket launcher/the Hellfire to Eleseer. Punching's for Brick.
I was very sad when HAL-T4P got killed.
That said, though, THE CUSTOMS CLAPTRAP SHOULD HAVE DIED SLOWER.
Well, she is a Gold Digger, after all.
I just wanted to note that the whole Felicity thing was a necessary evil - copying her would have taken days that they didn't have 'cause Zarpedon was gonna blow up Elpis and a good chunk of Pandora any moment. Besides, I imagine her copy wouldn't want to get razed either, you know.
Well, yes. Yes, it is. I forgot. Apologies.
I still have to turn the audio completely off when I get there, though. It's too painful for me to listen to.
This is actually the most confusing thing about Jack. He appears to be decent at the start of TPS, but we also know from BL2 that he in fact caused the entire story in BL1 to happen (he told Angel to tell the vault hunters to open the original vault, and that's what they did). He wanted the Destroyer's eye for himself and use it to pretty much cleanse the planet and kill a LOT of innocent people. And then in TPS (only about a year later!) he suddenly seems like a nice guy? I didn't think that made any sense, since he clearly didn't give a shit about anyone in BL1, he just wanted his death laser, nothing else. I even remember a quote of his during TPS, where he's talking to Zarpedon and he says: "There are innocent people on Elpis," implying that he actually cares about other people, when he clearly doesn't.
I think there's two ways you can understand Jack in TPS. Either he's lying and deceiving you the entire time (which is quite probably true), or TPS's writers didn't take the story of BL1 into consideration and changed Jack's personality from bad to good (which would kind of explain the quote I mentioned above, but I call it bullshit because even the people who wrote TPS aren't that careless). Either way, I think Jack's still an asshole during TPS who doesn't give a shit about anyone around him (except Angel, and look what a great life she had). He may have been a good guy before his wife died, but after that I don't think he ever did anything that was for the greater good.
I believe that he was a jerk, but at least he had redeeming traits and was fairly sane.
By the end, though, he's very close to becoming completely evil.
What redeeming traits are you talking about? Fairly sane? He wanted to cleanse Pandora of pretty much all life (thousands of innocent people dead), used Angel as a tool to get what he wanted and in general only did things to benefit himself, not others. Give me one example of something he did that could be considered "good". Because I don't remember a single one.
There's one: Staying behind at the station and dying if he has to.
Also, look at him in Borderlands 2. Sure, he IS a douchebag in TPS, once he slips into a downward spiral when Mr. Huxter "NowBillionsOfPeopleWillDieYouTriggerHappyMoronWhoAlsoCantAimVeryWellAndShouldHaveBoughtANewerRevolver" T. Meredith decides to try and kill him, but at least he didn't decide to go and build a terrible, poorly-planned city with statues of him everywhere.
To me, he's still slightly nuts, and increasingly violent in TPS, but in BL2, he's full-on insane and outright murderous.
Just throwing in here that I could TOTALLY get behind becoming the new villain of the series who players will have to face in Borderlands 3. With the option of having Fiona, Sasha and Vaughn join him or not. That would be...so cool.
I feel its important to understand just how much harsher the Borderlands universe is compared to ours. The things Jack has done prior to TPS are pretty horrific to us but in context he's just playing the corporate game as it exists there for his own gain. Doesn't mean that he wasn't genuinely horrified about Zarpaderp killing unarmed workers on Helios or about her plan to kill millions of people on Elpis. He was ambitious and willing to do a lot to fulfill those ambitions but he HAD a line. It just wasn't where we would have drawn it and even that got washed away during TPS.
Well, that first one is kind of true, but again, it kinda makes me feel like his character in TPS was different than what he was supposed to be from what we know happened during BL1 (or maybe he just wanted to stay with his laser).
Also, compare that to all the bad things he wanted to do at the time. He's still one of the worst characters in the entire franchise, pretty sure we can agree on that.
I can agree on that.
Although I consider Piston to be the person I hate the most out of all the antagonists. He reminds me of every single bully I've ever faced.
You are right there.
(Has anyone made a Zarpaderp macro or something yet?)
The plot demanded the stupidity
WRITING TEAM NUUUUUUUU-
(Note: Do not solely target Burch. Remember, he's PART of a writing team. Not the sole scriptwriter. If he was, he'd be retired and suffering from migraines.)
Just kidding, I'm not throwing stones on the writers
Still, stupid plan is stupid plan.
Hang on, that sounds like one of those "statement dance remix" things. I like it.
Yup
Or dumb decisions are dumb decisions, whichever you prefer.
Yeah, he was kinda pathetic. Fighting him was like: "Oh, you can't just come and fight me, you need a goddamn metal T-rex to do it... what a pussy." But I never felt like he was a serious threat to anyone, mostly because he was in a DLC that was all about humour. I found killing Jack much more satisfying.
True.
Also, you get to kill him however you want, sometimes resulting in stuff like this:
Who cares what's right and what's wrong.Look at this face,how can you NOT love this guy?!
Funnily enough, THAT WAS HIS EXACT PURPOSE.
He's supposed to be 1984's Big Brother played for laughs. You want to hate him, but you love him a bit.
And yes, compared to Vasquez or Piston, you'd actually want to laugh about guns over lunch with him. I mean, in Borderlands 2, YOU WOULDN'T. But here?
I'm starting to like him a tiny bit.
First borderlands game I played was the pre sequel without knowing anything about the borderland series.I chose Athena but I never finished the game.When I finished episode 2,I loved Jack so much that I went and bought borderlands 2 on steam.I chose Zer0 since he was the only one I knew because he appeared in the first episode of tales from the borderlands.I didn't finish borderlands 2 either.Im stuck at a fight with a badass loader bot or something.It was after the sanctuary went flying and also that guy with long hair from TFTB ep3 was sniping the place too.Was I trying to rescue his parrot or something?Hmm,not sure.
It's actually neither.
He's lying to and deceiving HIMSELF the entire time - TPS Jack (and very likely the un-seen BL1 Jack) genuinely thought he was the hero of the story and truly believed that all the horrible things he was doing were for the "greater good". Of course, to anyone who's not a megalomanic psychopath that is very clearly NOT the case - but Jack completely convinced himself of that fact.
Imprisoning Angel? Misleading the BL1 Vault Hunters? Stealing the Eye? These were all heroic sacrifices he (deludedly) thought he had to make. That's why he seems to 'care' about the innocent people of Elpis, that's why he 'sacrifices' himself by letting the TPS Vault Hunters escape - because that's what a hero would do.
Then during TPS he realises that he's got a taste for killing, and is betrayed one too many times, which combines with the deluded hero complex and gives birth to the real Handsome Jack that we all know and love.
So he still thinks he's the 'hero' of the story, but he's also batshit insane/dangerous.