Athena's great. Loved her in my playthrough of TPS (the only other one's I played through as were Clappy and Timothy; could never bring myself to try Wilhelm or NIsha. I would have felt dirty by association). Also.........Janey hits on her. A LOT. I mean....like, a LOT. Heh.
Pretty much. I mean, you remember his entrance in BL2? Just casually appears, not even fazed by the incredibly dangerous enemies in front of him. "Sup?"
Bad. Ass.
Also, WHAT A PRICK! Seriously, so much sadness for that scene..........
I don't have the screenshot but it says,
NAME: Athena
AGE: I wanna say early forties? Is that way off?
OCCUPATION: Former Vault Hunting Badass, current bandit.
NOTE: I kinda miss having her around. She was really good at killing bandits, and you just gotta respect that.
You found Janey hit on her a lot ? It's like 4 or 5 times during a playthrough no ? And a playthrough is what, like 20h or 40h is it ? I couldn't say...
Well I don't find she hits on Athena that much, but hey opinions may vary !
Oh and yeah Nisha, not only is she horrible but I don't like her gameplay too much. I couldn't play her past lvl 40.
I did try Aurelia though and liked it, she's not that evil, she does have a few moments where she's disgusted at Jack.
I think I'll try Timothy one day, the skill tree looks excellent and since he's kind of a good guy it seems...
Athena's great. Loved her in my playthrough of TPS (the only other one's I played through as were Clappy and Timothy; could never bring myse… morelf to try Wilhelm or NIsha. I would have felt dirty by association). Also.........Janey hits on her. A LOT. I mean....like, a LOT. Heh.
His betrayl at the hands of the Meriff and being hunted by the Lost Legion for hours didn't do his sanity any favors either.
And he does entertain the idea of copying Felicity, but rightfully scraps it because they literally don't have enough time.
What's interesting about their relationship, something that's really fleshed out in "Catch a Ride", is that they share a number of the same ruthless vices.
Jack's bandit witch hunt, a crusade operating under a very broad definition of bandit to take out anyone that opposes him, was partially born out of Moxxi and the B1 Vault Hunters betraying his trust and trying to murder him; never mind that he doesn't see anything wrong with all the morally murkey stuff he did before going full super villain. Contrast this blind prejudice to his early TPS self who was initially reluctant to hire Nisha because she was more or less an actual bandit. At first glance, Athena's vendetta against Atlas seems to be much more justified and refined as the company is the chief antagonist of the first game and seems to chiefly consist of jerks (Steele's forces) and morons (Knox's "troops").
Tales, as it does with a good deal of the Borderlands franchise, parodies and deconstructs this grudge-fueled rampage as it reveals that she not only went after Atlas military personnel, but anyone in their employ, even relatively harmless individuals like Dr. Cassius; This is further supported by Gortys making it known that Athena murdering everyone that was involved in her creation is why she's in an incomplete state. This makes her protest regarding the deaths of Gladstone and the other scientists, "Those people were FRIGHTENED. They would have done nothing..." both poignant and immensely hypocritical since the two Atlas employees we see in Tales (Pollux and Cassius) just want her to leave them alone and even go into hiding out of fear of her. Not so much because of something they did to her personally or were intimately involved in, but because she's decided that they've just gotta die if she's going to have any peace of mind. Sound familiar?
This leads into another of the pair's mutual faults. While Jack's all for taking (not entirely undeserved) credit for his accomplishments, he is entirely unwilling to take responsibility for his failures and misdeeds, either trying to blame their occurences on the incompetence/malice of another or framing them as stepping stones to a larger and more noble goal. I must point out that the man isn't completely delusional and that this scapegoating is a deliberate mental choice on his part. When he tries to use his TPS Vault Hunters as an example to Rhys of how he always looks out for his team, his usually morbid cheery voice falters; he still tries to lie, but he can't quite say it with his same cocksure tone due to how badly things turned out for his original four (with half dead and the other half hating him). That said, his sociopathic attitude prevents him from understanding what he did to make Athena despise him so. They were allies, weren't they? Buddies? Perhaps Jack's darkest trait was that, at his core, he wanted to be a hero so he could be loved and respected by those around him. It's just that his experiences and life decisions made him think the best way to do that was to make loving and respecting him mandatory. Since he can't use fear, violence, or money anymore, his AI incarnation is at a loss as to how to make Athena like him again.
Case in point, when he briefly takes over Rhys body in one of episode 3's routes, he makes no real effort to hide his identity (short of screaming his name) and shows no fear of Athena, even going so far as to sling an arm around her shoulder because he's just absolutely tickled that he's going to serve up a bonafide Atlas scientist to his old pal, the Gladiator. He goes so far as to say that she'll enjoy it. And he's right.
Athena justifies her hatred by repeatedly insisting, even unprompted, that Atlas "tricked" her into killing her sister. A handy distinction that lets her shift all the blame on someone else. It wasn't technically her fault, it was Atlas. In her mind, all she needs to do is gut them all and she'll be absolved of her fratricide. It doesn't matter how involved they were or how much of a danger they pose. She made a vow, a promise. She committed herself to a NOBLE cause and that makes all the bloodshed, lies, and compromised ideals a-okay.
Should Fiona try to stop Athena from murdering Cassius, she'll point out that Athena didn't make her pledge of retribution to her sister (who she killed, so the avenging wouldn't do squat for her), but to herself. Much like how Jack tried to justify all of his monstrous acts by saying it was all for Angel's sake when really all she wanted was to be freed from the core. No matter Fiona's choice, Gortys, who was at first forgiving of Athena's Atlas killing spree, will try to stop her by calling to attention the fact that she's technically of Atlas as well and asking if Athena will kill her too just because of that. Athena chooses to ignore the question and tries to get back to the task of "fulfilling an obligation" until Brick barges in.
The irony is slag-thick at the end of "Catch-a-Ride". Athena is dragged back to Sanctuary to serve as a sacrifical lamb to Lillith's own grief-stricken fury regarding Roland while a version of Jack, the man who actually murdered Roland, escapes the attentions of Brick and Mordecai and is going to get to come home to Helios albeit in chains courtesy of Vallory.
P.S. I don't get why everyone felt all that sorry for Fr4g-TP and his fellow Claptrap units. He did try to become ruler of the universe and slaughter all organic life during his "Robolution". Not to mention all the pain and carnage he wrecked even without the INAC software. The guy, like Jack, had it coming, but managed to find some redemption in the 2nd game.
In my humble opinion, Jack is using Rhys to get what he wants. Get to Helios and possibly take Rhys' body in order to be alive again. Rule Hyperion once more. Jack probably thinks that is easier to do so if he acts like a friend to Rhys,
Yes, I do believe that he likes Rhys if he agrees with him and trusts him, but I think that in the end he'll end up betraying Rhys once he doesn't need his help. Despite liking him.
In my opinon, Jack is beyond redemption, he has done horrible things. His AI has his personality. I do agree with you that Jack might admit that some of the things he did were excessive, but he still believes that it was for a greater good. He believes he is a hero who had to make sacrifices in order to wipe out all the bandits in Pandora (everyone who opposed to him).
But he already is. For one thing, at the end of the day you could argue that the AI is still a completely separate character. Also, even t… morehe real Jack had some good to him, especially early on. This Jack has a lot of time to think and is unable to act on his more violent tendencies. He's becoming aware of his own flaws in wake of his death and can potentially find a friend in Rhys. I believe there is hope. I will actually be disappointed if Telltale forces him into the position of main villain once more or tries to make all your choices regarding him irrelevant by claiming he was just manipulating you the whole time.
You found Janey hit on her a lot ? It's like 4 or 5 times during a playthrough no ? And a playthrough is what, like 20h or 40h is it ? I cou… moreldn't say...
Well I don't find she hits on Athena that much, but hey opinions may vary !
Oh and yeah Nisha, not only is she horrible but I don't like her gameplay too much. I couldn't play her past lvl 40.
I did try Aurelia though and liked it, she's not that evil, she does have a few moments where she's disgusted at Jack.
I think I'll try Timothy one day, the skill tree looks excellent and since he's kind of a good guy it seems...
His betrayl at the hands of the Meriff and being hunted by the Lost Legion for hours didn't do his sanity any favors either.
And he does … moreentertain the idea of copying Felicity, but rightfully scraps it because they literally don't have enough time.
What's interesting about their relationship, something that's really fleshed out in "Catch a Ride", is that they share a number of the same ruthless vices.
Jack's bandit witch hunt, a crusade operating under a very broad definition of bandit to take out anyone that opposes him, was partially born out of Moxxi and the B1 Vault Hunters betraying his trust and trying to murder him; never mind that he doesn't see anything wrong with all the morally murkey stuff he did before going full super villain. Contrast this blind prejudice to his early TPS self who was initially reluctant to hire Nisha because she was more or less an actual bandit. At first glance, Athena's vendetta against Atlas seems … [view original content]
AI Jack flat out acknowledges that his death was his own fault, because he refused to work with people he didn't trust. He advises Rhys not to make the same mistake, because it could end up costing him dearly. I see this as a sign of serious growth. I don't believe it will be easy, but I do think there is hope for him.
In my humble opinion, Jack is using Rhys to get what he wants. Get to Helios and possibly take Rhys' body in order to be alive again. Rule … moreHyperion once more. Jack probably thinks that is easier to do so if he acts like a friend to Rhys,
Yes, I do believe that he likes Rhys if he agrees with him and trusts him, but I think that in the end he'll end up betraying Rhys once he doesn't need his help. Despite liking him.
In my opinon, Jack is beyond redemption, he has done horrible things. His AI has his personality. I do agree with you that Jack might admit that some of the things he did were excessive, but he still believes that it was for a greater good. He believes he is a hero who had to make sacrifices in order to wipe out all the bandits in Pandora (everyone who opposed to him).
Well we'll agree to disagree since I think you're looking into this too much and in a kind of black and white fashion at that !
We all have our interpretation of what happened and I don't buy a single bit that Athena would be hypocrital at all, especially about her "sister" death, a so called "handy distinction" (?!?), that was specifically designed as a trap/trick/plan by her bosses. This is even acknowledged by Knoxx himself during TPS :
Knoxx: "You assholes. What the hell did she do to you to deserve THAT? You order a code 64 on a village knowing full well her sister LIVED THERE? For hell's sake, she took out her own sister in all the confusion because you ordered thermal's only! [...]"
What happens though and maybe that'd explain how you see the thing, is that this is almost a retcon compared to how Knoxx says Athena is a "treacherous snake" in the Armory DLC. The fact those Echoes are placed in TPS and are so precise and defined, is, I believe, a foreshadowing of Gearbox plans to refine Athena's story for TFTB or even farther than that.
So no I don't buy all the parallels you make between Jack and Athena, kind of trying to paste all of Jack's evil deeds on her to try to prove she's no better.
It does show, in all cinematics or dialogs where Jack does something awful that she's disgusted.
His betrayl at the hands of the Meriff and being hunted by the Lost Legion for hours didn't do his sanity any favors either.
And he does … moreentertain the idea of copying Felicity, but rightfully scraps it because they literally don't have enough time.
What's interesting about their relationship, something that's really fleshed out in "Catch a Ride", is that they share a number of the same ruthless vices.
Jack's bandit witch hunt, a crusade operating under a very broad definition of bandit to take out anyone that opposes him, was partially born out of Moxxi and the B1 Vault Hunters betraying his trust and trying to murder him; never mind that he doesn't see anything wrong with all the morally murkey stuff he did before going full super villain. Contrast this blind prejudice to his early TPS self who was initially reluctant to hire Nisha because she was more or less an actual bandit. At first glance, Athena's vendetta against Atlas seems … [view original content]
I think Robolution, and also Zombie island for that matter, are uchronias of sort...
Or at least fictitious, by Pandora standards, as Dragonkeep for example.
Ergo hypocrisy. Jack's a mass murderer who's slaughtered women and children in his crusade to gentrify Pandora, but after Angel dies, he calls the Vault Hunters child murderers, because it's apparently only okay when he does it. Likewise, Athena's got all this honor and morals and whatnot, but it's not a hate crime or an injustice if whatever's being imposed upon has Atlas slapped across its lapel.
But if we're playing the quote game, I could defang your entire argument with a single line from TPS. One that Athena says personally to Jack concerning a surrendering Lost Legion soldier:
"I don't kill people who aren't shooting at me."
Boy, that Cassius, am I right? Just went at her guns blazing. Firing at her with impunity with those invisible blasters of his. Good thing she grabbed him before he could attack her further. Yup.
Well we'll agree to disagree since I think you're looking into this too much and in a kind of black and white fashion at that !
We all h… moreave our interpretation of what happened and I don't buy a single bit that Athena would be hypocrital at all, especially about her "sister" death, a so called "handy distinction" (?!?), that was specifically designed as a trap/trick/plan by her bosses. This is even acknowledged by Knoxx himself during TPS :
Here, Last Echo of the "wise owl" list.
Knoxx: "You assholes. What the hell did she do to you to deserve THAT? You order a code 64 on a village knowing full well her sister LIVED THERE? For hell's sake, she took out her own sister in all the confusion because you ordered thermal's only! [...]"
What happens though and maybe that'd explain how you see the thing, is that this is almost a retcon compared to how Knoxx says Athena is a "treacherous snake" in the Armory DLC. The fact those Ech… [view original content]
There's nothing in what you quote that "defang" anything in my argument.
The way you associate and link every horror Jack has done to other people in a black and white way, without context, and without considerations of exceptions. In the example of Angel she's been dying from Jack way before the VHs end her misery, at HER demand.
About the Cassius guy and the lost legion soldier there's a huge difference : the soldier didn't do anything personnally to Athena while Cassius is not only one of the top scientist of Atlas but he's also working for death weaponry by modifying flora, and even if she doesn't know at the time she tries to kill him that he's working on horrors she does suspect something of that matter from the way the guy is acting...
Athena cares about a lot of people, even to Clappy she says "I'm sorry" when he does one of his loneliness speech, I didn't play all the TPS VHs but I wouldn't be surprised she's the only one to do so, and genuinely at that. Jack didn't care about a single person in the whole franchise.
Comparing evil deeds of Jack and making a count of who did wrong, where and how, would end up making Nikita (from the movie) someone evil as well, Han Solo an evil guy because he kills Greedo, and so on and so forth.
But to come back to possible Borderlands analogies : Athena is an ex assassin trained from Childhood by Atlas and as such it would also make Zer0 one of the bad guys, because he's an assassin, if we start making analogies on things the same way you're doing. What about Brick torturing prisonners, heck even Maya (as seen in Dragonkeep) is an accomplice of torture in Sanctuary. I mean if we were to find ONE example of a borderline deed and then conclude from there if they are or not as evil and cruel, or if they have principle or not, or hypocrite or not then we'd easily find one such example for each and every VH. And then each and every VH would be a hypocrite ??? Sorry what ???
Things are not that black and white in the Borderlands franchise and you have to see the picture as a whole.
There's only one guy that goes :
Handsome Jack: "Oh yeah? How about this - lady? - I don't even know what to call you: you tell me why you look like you headbutted a belt sander, and I'll let all of you go right now."
Helena Pierce: "My husband gave me a skag pearl ring. The pearl released hunger-inducing pheromones."
Handsome Jack: "Oh. You know what? I am so sorry. I - I just... Forgive me. Where's your husband now?"
Helena Pierce: "He's dead."
Handsome Jack: "That is a heartbreaker, but...[gunshot, followed by death scream] you got something in common with him now at least!"
Handsome Jack: "Hohohoho... holy crap! Did you see her head? It was like - PBBLLT! Wilhelm? Kill these savages."
Wilhelm: "UNDERSTOOD."
[gunshots, followed by screams]
...
Handsome Jack: You like my speech? I was lying about the last part, by the way. I'm gonna spend a long time torturing you bandit scum to death. And I'll enjoy it even more because - ah, I shouldn't say anymore.
...
Handsome Jack: hey you know how I got my hands on that vault key ? A few years back Wilhem and I paid a little visit to your little friend Tannis and we beat her for hours, we ripped it up out of her broken fingers, But we let her live because that's what heroes do...
...
And there are literally DOZENS upon DOZENS of examples like this.
How many such examples for Athena ? The so-called example of Cassius ? Is that all you got ?
And just because Athena is seeking revenge on all Atlas for the death of her sister that SHE really cared about, then suddenly it makes her as bad as Jake ? It makes her a hypocrit because of your far-fetched interpretations of so-called similar events ?
This is ridiculous, Athena is one of the most honest and upright character in the whole franchise, along with maybe Maya, Gaige and a couple others. She's not even accustomed to lying, look at how bad she's at lying when in front of Janey in Scooter's garage in Hollow Point.
Heck, by your standard and the way you placate things by making leaping analogies then Tiny Tina would be monster or a hypocrit as well ?
Ergo hypocrisy. Jack's a mass murderer who's slaughtered women and children in his crusade to gentrify Pandora, but after Angel dies, he cal… morels the Vault Hunters child murderers, because it's apparently only okay when he does it. Likewise, Athena's got all this honor and morals and whatnot, but it's not a hate crime or an injustice if whatever's being imposed upon has Atlas slapped across its lapel.
But if we're playing the quote game, I could defang your entire argument with a single line from TPS. One that Athena says personally to Jack concerning a surrendering Lost Legion soldier:
"I don't kill people who aren't shooting at me."
Boy, that Cassius, am I right? Just went at her guns blazing. Firing at her with impunity with those invisible blasters of his. Good thing she grabbed him before he could attack her further. Yup.
Oh well...
You keep criticizing me for a black-and-white view when you seem to be pretty fixated on vindicating Athena on all blame. The series is filled with horrible psychopathic hypocrites. Athena's just one that likes to think of herself as an honorable warrior rather than a bloodthirsty thrill seeker. Heck, episode 3 can have her rail against Cassius for his dishonesty when she was casually lying to her girlfriend just a few minutes before.
And I don't think you understand what the word "placating" means. That is "to cause (someone) to feel less angry about something". Your English in general seems pretty shoddy and confused.
There's nothing in what you quote that "defang" anything in my argument.
The way you associate and link every horror Jack has done to oth… moreer people in a black and white way, without context, and without considerations of exceptions. In the example of Angel she's been dying from Jack way before the VHs end her misery, at HER demand.
About the Cassius guy and the lost legion soldier there's a huge difference : the soldier didn't do anything personnally to Athena while Cassius is not only one of the top scientist of Atlas but he's also working for death weaponry by modifying flora, and even if she doesn't know at the time she tries to kill him that he's working on horrors she does suspect something of that matter from the way the guy is acting...
Athena cares about a lot of people, even to Clappy she says "I'm sorry" when he does one of his loneliness speech, I didn't play all the TPS VHs but I wouldn't be surprised she's the only one to… [view original content]
Your English in general seems pretty shoddy and confused
Oh ok I made a mistake with the word "placating" and it has you go Ad-Hominem... Nice...
I'll let other people make their mind, done with you here.
The conversation is over.
Good luck trying to convince people that Athena is some kind of hypocrite while saying stuff like :
episode 3 can have her rail against Cassius for his dishonesty when she was casually lying to her girlfriend just a few minutes before.
That is so Black & White...
I mean seriously...
Oh well...
You keep criticizing me for a black-and-white view when you seem to be pretty fixated on vindicating Athena on all blame. The series is fill… moreed with horrible psychopathic hypocrites. Athena's just one that likes to think of herself as an honorable warrior rather than a bloodthirsty thrill seeker. Heck, episode 3 can have her rail against Cassius for his dishonesty when she was casually lying to her girlfriend just a few minutes before.
And I don't think you understand what the word "placating" means. That is "to cause (someone) to feel less angry about something". Your English in general seems pretty shoddy and confused.
All of this is wonderfully written and argued, but this part in particular is just so astute and well thought out:
"Perhaps Jack's darkest trait was that, at his core, he wanted to be a hero so he could be loved and respected by those around him. It's just that his experiences and life decisions made him think the best way to do that was to make loving and respecting him mandatory."
And I wholeheartedly agree that Cassius was practically gift-wrapped by Jack for Athena.
His betrayl at the hands of the Meriff and being hunted by the Lost Legion for hours didn't do his sanity any favors either.
And he does … moreentertain the idea of copying Felicity, but rightfully scraps it because they literally don't have enough time.
What's interesting about their relationship, something that's really fleshed out in "Catch a Ride", is that they share a number of the same ruthless vices.
Jack's bandit witch hunt, a crusade operating under a very broad definition of bandit to take out anyone that opposes him, was partially born out of Moxxi and the B1 Vault Hunters betraying his trust and trying to murder him; never mind that he doesn't see anything wrong with all the morally murkey stuff he did before going full super villain. Contrast this blind prejudice to his early TPS self who was initially reluctant to hire Nisha because she was more or less an actual bandit. At first glance, Athena's vendetta against Atlas seems … [view original content]
His betrayl at the hands of the Meriff and being hunted by the Lost Legion for hours didn't do his sanity any favors either.
And he does … moreentertain the idea of copying Felicity, but rightfully scraps it because they literally don't have enough time.
What's interesting about their relationship, something that's really fleshed out in "Catch a Ride", is that they share a number of the same ruthless vices.
Jack's bandit witch hunt, a crusade operating under a very broad definition of bandit to take out anyone that opposes him, was partially born out of Moxxi and the B1 Vault Hunters betraying his trust and trying to murder him; never mind that he doesn't see anything wrong with all the morally murkey stuff he did before going full super villain. Contrast this blind prejudice to his early TPS self who was initially reluctant to hire Nisha because she was more or less an actual bandit. At first glance, Athena's vendetta against Atlas seems … [view original content]
I'd heard that he really had no choice with the AI, since a lot of lives were on the line, and there was simply no time to do anything else.… more Also, I heard he felt pretty badly about it. And you kind of forgot to mention the stuff that made him start to fall towards the dark side.
You found Janey hit on her a lot ? It's like 4 or 5 times during a playthrough no ? And a playthrough is what, like 20h or 40h is it ? I cou… moreldn't say...
Well I don't find she hits on Athena that much, but hey opinions may vary !
Oh and yeah Nisha, not only is she horrible but I don't like her gameplay too much. I couldn't play her past lvl 40.
I did try Aurelia though and liked it, she's not that evil, she does have a few moments where she's disgusted at Jack.
I think I'll try Timothy one day, the skill tree looks excellent and since he's kind of a good guy it seems...
Roland was my main in BL1. It felt like the bullet jumped out of my computer screen and went right through my heart when I saw my favorite character look at the hole in his chest, confused, then fall over with Handsome Jack standing behind him.
Pretty much. I mean, you remember his entrance in BL2? Just casually appears, not even fazed by the incredibly dangerous enemies in front of him. "Sup?"
Bad. Ass.
Also, WHAT A PRICK! Seriously, so much sadness for that scene..........
He took the XP he got from grinding that exercise bike and specced into the "Abs of Buffness" tree rather than the the skilltree which would give him stronger legs.
On Pandora, it's all about where you put those skill points, not what you do to get them.
this! AI Jack is Way more of a good guy Type Then The normal Jack. Because the AI from him was Created shortly After the End of TPS. He knows about the Betrayel in TPS, but Thats it. He don't has the Problems of His normal Version After a Death of a Certain someone. He isnt Full Evil at this Point. He is As Evil As in TPS, and that isnt Alot of Evil.
But he already is. For one thing, at the end of the day you could argue that the AI is still a completely separate character. Also, even t… morehe real Jack had some good to him, especially early on. This Jack has a lot of time to think and is unable to act on his more violent tendencies. He's becoming aware of his own flaws in wake of his death and can potentially find a friend in Rhys. I believe there is hope. I will actually be disappointed if Telltale forces him into the position of main villain once more or tries to make all your choices regarding him irrelevant by claiming he was just manipulating you the whole time.
Well, most people agree that the AI is based on BL2 Jack, and as of Episode 3, he has apparently remembered the events of his death. I definitely think he is becoming a better/different person, though.
this! AI Jack is Way more of a good guy Type Then The normal Jack. Because the AI from him was Created shortly After the End of TPS. He know… mores about the Betrayel in TPS, but Thats it. He don't has the Problems of His normal Version After a Death of a Certain someone. He isnt Full Evil at this Point. He is As Evil As in TPS, and that isnt Alot of Evil.
I think he's the kind of guy who respects it when people stand up to him - and I don't think he'd necessarily take it as being against him,
… more
I think we see this in the way the Jack-a-Pedia describes Athena. It's probably the first time I saw Jack respect someone accross all the games.
I'm talking about if you agree to team up with Jack, but don't give him control of Rhys. Then they are still buddies, but Rhys has all the power. That is something Jack has to respect.
It's pretty clear that him not taking control then is because he CAN'T, not because he respects Rhys. Jack doesn't seem too fond of defiance, and regardless, he doesn't want Rhys to die.
I'm talking about if you agree to team up with Jack, but don't give him control of Rhys. Then they are still buddies, but Rhys has all the power. That is something Jack has to respect.
I've seen this theory floating around the forums a lot, and it definitely gives food for thought. But it still doesn't really have enough to back it up. A problem I have with it is the very beginning, where it appears that Rhys is searching for Fiona, saying "We can work this out" or something like that. It could be part of a clever ruse on the Stranger, but they would have had to have planned on the Stranger capturing Fiona and then going out to get Rhys too. Also, I just buy into the fact that they do hate each other based on what they say and how they say it. Luckily, the answer to whether they are faking it or not will probably be revealed in Episode 4, since it should finally return the game fully to the present day
Sometimes i think that they're faking it.
In the present, both Rhys and Fiona give each other these looks, like they are in on something … moretogether. I wouldn't put it past them to be trying to manipulate the Stranger. I mean, Rhys WAS looking for Fiona at the beginning of the story.
I guess what i meant was not that they were in on everything together from the beginning of the game, but that once they realized the situation that they were now in (with the Stranger) they would work together against their apparent common enemy.
We don't know Why Rhys was looking for Fiona, maybe he was trying to come to terms with her or warn her of a threat? I agree with you though Someguy, we don't have enough info to come to a real conclusion as of yet. There are just too many possibilities of who the Stranger could be, and what he really wants with Gortys.
I've seen this theory floating around the forums a lot, and it definitely gives food for thought. But it still doesn't really have enough to… more back it up. A problem I have with it is the very beginning, where it appears that Rhys is searching for Fiona, saying "We can work this out" or something like that. It could be part of a clever ruse on the Stranger, but they would have had to have planned on the Stranger capturing Fiona and then going out to get Rhys too. Also, I just buy into the fact that they do hate each other based on what they say and how they say it. Luckily, the answer to whether they are faking it or not will probably be revealed in Episode 4, since it should finally return the game fully to the present day
He also says something to Rhys (when Vallory catches up with them, in a Trust Fiona playthrough) about how,
'If you don't have any friends, you can't be betrayed by them.'
Which also gives me some hope - that if we are loyal to our friends, and treat Jack as a real part of our group and don't betray him when the opportunity arises - he may come around to a different perspective.
People grow because of others and situations they have to live through. I think Jack has the capability to change...if he has reason to or can see a better way. But i also agree that there's a good to probable likelihood that the first chance he gets, he will fuck us over.
AI Jack flat out acknowledges that his death was his own fault, because he refused to work with people he didn't trust. He advises Rhys not… more to make the same mistake, because it could end up costing him dearly. I see this as a sign of serious growth. I don't believe it will be easy, but I do think there is hope for him.
He also says something to Rhys (when Vallory catches up with them, in a Trust Fiona playthrough) about how,
'If you don't have any friend… mores, you can't be betrayed by them.'
Which also gives me some hope - that if we are loyal to our friends, and treat Jack as a real part of our group and don't betray him when the opportunity arises - he may come around to a different perspective.
People grow because of others and situations they have to live through. I think Jack has the capability to change...if he has reason to or can see a better way. But i also agree that there's a good to probable likelihood that the first chance he gets, he will fuck us over.
I've definitely seen a few. I like that there are so many variations in he dialogue choices, depending on your previous decisions.
I can't say that i know alot about Jack and his prior transgressions against Pandorans (or everyone really, it seems like), but he is extremely likeable and charming even when he's threatening you. There's hope i think, the longer he has to live 'inside' Rhys the better for his disposition.
He kind of makes me feel like a girl in a bad relationship. I want to help him, i feel like I can change him... If he'll only let me. Yeeesh. Handsome Jack is turning me into an idiot.
Comments
Athena's great. Loved her in my playthrough of TPS (the only other one's I played through as were Clappy and Timothy; could never bring myself to try Wilhelm or NIsha. I would have felt dirty by association). Also.........Janey hits on her. A LOT. I mean....like, a LOT. Heh.
"Sorry sorry sorry sorry SORRY! Not kidding though! She WILL kill us."
Pretty much. I mean, you remember his entrance in BL2? Just casually appears, not even fazed by the incredibly dangerous enemies in front of him. "Sup?"
Bad. Ass.
Also, WHAT A PRICK! Seriously, so much sadness for that scene..........
I don't have the screenshot but it says,
NAME: Athena
AGE: I wanna say early forties? Is that way off?
OCCUPATION: Former Vault Hunting Badass, current bandit.
NOTE: I kinda miss having her around. She was really good at killing bandits, and you just gotta respect that.
Try choosing the "Romantic?" option on the bridge. Heh. Rhys has no kind of game at all.
"Hopefully Sasha won't remember this"
You found Janey hit on her a lot ? It's like 4 or 5 times during a playthrough no ? And a playthrough is what, like 20h or 40h is it ? I couldn't say...
Well I don't find she hits on Athena that much, but hey opinions may vary
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Oh and yeah Nisha, not only is she horrible but I don't like her gameplay too much. I couldn't play her past lvl 40.
I did try Aurelia though and liked it, she's not that evil, she does have a few moments where she's disgusted at Jack.
I think I'll try Timothy one day, the skill tree looks excellent and since he's kind of a good guy it seems...
I'm 100% glad I didn't side with him. I thought I regretted that, but I didn't.
His betrayl at the hands of the Meriff and being hunted by the Lost Legion for hours didn't do his sanity any favors either.
And he does entertain the idea of copying Felicity, but rightfully scraps it because they literally don't have enough time.
What's interesting about their relationship, something that's really fleshed out in "Catch a Ride", is that they share a number of the same ruthless vices.
Jack's bandit witch hunt, a crusade operating under a very broad definition of bandit to take out anyone that opposes him, was partially born out of Moxxi and the B1 Vault Hunters betraying his trust and trying to murder him; never mind that he doesn't see anything wrong with all the morally murkey stuff he did before going full super villain. Contrast this blind prejudice to his early TPS self who was initially reluctant to hire Nisha because she was more or less an actual bandit. At first glance, Athena's vendetta against Atlas seems to be much more justified and refined as the company is the chief antagonist of the first game and seems to chiefly consist of jerks (Steele's forces) and morons (Knox's "troops").
Tales, as it does with a good deal of the Borderlands franchise, parodies and deconstructs this grudge-fueled rampage as it reveals that she not only went after Atlas military personnel, but anyone in their employ, even relatively harmless individuals like Dr. Cassius; This is further supported by Gortys making it known that Athena murdering everyone that was involved in her creation is why she's in an incomplete state. This makes her protest regarding the deaths of Gladstone and the other scientists, "Those people were FRIGHTENED. They would have done nothing..." both poignant and immensely hypocritical since the two Atlas employees we see in Tales (Pollux and Cassius) just want her to leave them alone and even go into hiding out of fear of her. Not so much because of something they did to her personally or were intimately involved in, but because she's decided that they've just gotta die if she's going to have any peace of mind. Sound familiar?
This leads into another of the pair's mutual faults. While Jack's all for taking (not entirely undeserved) credit for his accomplishments, he is entirely unwilling to take responsibility for his failures and misdeeds, either trying to blame their occurences on the incompetence/malice of another or framing them as stepping stones to a larger and more noble goal. I must point out that the man isn't completely delusional and that this scapegoating is a deliberate mental choice on his part. When he tries to use his TPS Vault Hunters as an example to Rhys of how he always looks out for his team, his usually morbid cheery voice falters; he still tries to lie, but he can't quite say it with his same cocksure tone due to how badly things turned out for his original four (with half dead and the other half hating him). That said, his sociopathic attitude prevents him from understanding what he did to make Athena despise him so. They were allies, weren't they? Buddies? Perhaps Jack's darkest trait was that, at his core, he wanted to be a hero so he could be loved and respected by those around him. It's just that his experiences and life decisions made him think the best way to do that was to make loving and respecting him mandatory. Since he can't use fear, violence, or money anymore, his AI incarnation is at a loss as to how to make Athena like him again.
Case in point, when he briefly takes over Rhys body in one of episode 3's routes, he makes no real effort to hide his identity (short of screaming his name) and shows no fear of Athena, even going so far as to sling an arm around her shoulder because he's just absolutely tickled that he's going to serve up a bonafide Atlas scientist to his old pal, the Gladiator. He goes so far as to say that she'll enjoy it. And he's right.
Athena justifies her hatred by repeatedly insisting, even unprompted, that Atlas "tricked" her into killing her sister. A handy distinction that lets her shift all the blame on someone else. It wasn't technically her fault, it was Atlas. In her mind, all she needs to do is gut them all and she'll be absolved of her fratricide. It doesn't matter how involved they were or how much of a danger they pose. She made a vow, a promise. She committed herself to a NOBLE cause and that makes all the bloodshed, lies, and compromised ideals a-okay.
Should Fiona try to stop Athena from murdering Cassius, she'll point out that Athena didn't make her pledge of retribution to her sister (who she killed, so the avenging wouldn't do squat for her), but to herself. Much like how Jack tried to justify all of his monstrous acts by saying it was all for Angel's sake when really all she wanted was to be freed from the core. No matter Fiona's choice, Gortys, who was at first forgiving of Athena's Atlas killing spree, will try to stop her by calling to attention the fact that she's technically of Atlas as well and asking if Athena will kill her too just because of that. Athena chooses to ignore the question and tries to get back to the task of "fulfilling an obligation" until Brick barges in.
The irony is slag-thick at the end of "Catch-a-Ride". Athena is dragged back to Sanctuary to serve as a sacrifical lamb to Lillith's own grief-stricken fury regarding Roland while a version of Jack, the man who actually murdered Roland, escapes the attentions of Brick and Mordecai and is going to get to come home to Helios albeit in chains courtesy of Vallory.
P.S. I don't get why everyone felt all that sorry for Fr4g-TP and his fellow Claptrap units. He did try to become ruler of the universe and slaughter all organic life during his "Robolution". Not to mention all the pain and carnage he wrecked even without the INAC software. The guy, like Jack, had it coming, but managed to find some redemption in the 2nd game.
In my humble opinion, Jack is using Rhys to get what he wants. Get to Helios and possibly take Rhys' body in order to be alive again. Rule Hyperion once more. Jack probably thinks that is easier to do so if he acts like a friend to Rhys,
Yes, I do believe that he likes Rhys if he agrees with him and trusts him, but I think that in the end he'll end up betraying Rhys once he doesn't need his help. Despite liking him.
In my opinon, Jack is beyond redemption, he has done horrible things. His AI has his personality. I do agree with you that Jack might admit that some of the things he did were excessive, but he still believes that it was for a greater good. He believes he is a hero who had to make sacrifices in order to wipe out all the bandits in Pandora (everyone who opposed to him).
Nisha is OP, but she is such a jerk in TPS. In BL2 she was more...pleasant.
Out of interest, what do you think was the death toll for the Robolution?
AI Jack flat out acknowledges that his death was his own fault, because he refused to work with people he didn't trust. He advises Rhys not to make the same mistake, because it could end up costing him dearly. I see this as a sign of serious growth. I don't believe it will be easy, but I do think there is hope for him.
Well we'll agree to disagree since I think you're looking into this too much and in a kind of black and white fashion at that
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We all have our interpretation of what happened and I don't buy a single bit that Athena would be hypocrital at all, especially about her "sister" death, a so called "handy distinction" (?!?), that was specifically designed as a trap/trick/plan by her bosses. This is even acknowledged by Knoxx himself during TPS :
Here, Last Echo of the "wise owl" list.
What happens though and maybe that'd explain how you see the thing, is that this is almost a retcon compared to how Knoxx says Athena is a "treacherous snake" in the Armory DLC. The fact those Echoes are placed in TPS and are so precise and defined, is, I believe, a foreshadowing of Gearbox plans to refine Athena's story for TFTB or even farther than that.
So no I don't buy all the parallels you make between Jack and Athena, kind of trying to paste all of Jack's evil deeds on her to try to prove she's no better.
It does show, in all cinematics or dialogs where Jack does something awful that she's disgusted.
Oh well...
I think Robolution, and also Zombie island for that matter, are uchronias of sort...
Or at least fictitious, by Pandora standards, as Dragonkeep for example.
Ergo hypocrisy. Jack's a mass murderer who's slaughtered women and children in his crusade to gentrify Pandora, but after Angel dies, he calls the Vault Hunters child murderers, because it's apparently only okay when he does it. Likewise, Athena's got all this honor and morals and whatnot, but it's not a hate crime or an injustice if whatever's being imposed upon has Atlas slapped across its lapel.
But if we're playing the quote game, I could defang your entire argument with a single line from TPS. One that Athena says personally to Jack concerning a surrendering Lost Legion soldier:
Boy, that Cassius, am I right? Just went at her guns blazing. Firing at her with impunity with those invisible blasters of his. Good thing she grabbed him before he could attack her further. Yup.
Oh well...
There's nothing in what you quote that "defang" anything in my argument.
The way you associate and link every horror Jack has done to other people in a black and white way, without context, and without considerations of exceptions. In the example of Angel she's been dying from Jack way before the VHs end her misery, at HER demand.
About the Cassius guy and the lost legion soldier there's a huge difference : the soldier didn't do anything personnally to Athena while Cassius is not only one of the top scientist of Atlas but he's also working for death weaponry by modifying flora, and even if she doesn't know at the time she tries to kill him that he's working on horrors she does suspect something of that matter from the way the guy is acting...
Athena cares about a lot of people, even to Clappy she says "I'm sorry" when he does one of his loneliness speech, I didn't play all the TPS VHs but I wouldn't be surprised she's the only one to do so, and genuinely at that. Jack didn't care about a single person in the whole franchise.
Comparing evil deeds of Jack and making a count of who did wrong, where and how, would end up making Nikita (from the movie) someone evil as well, Han Solo an evil guy because he kills Greedo, and so on and so forth.
But to come back to possible Borderlands analogies : Athena is an ex assassin trained from Childhood by Atlas and as such it would also make Zer0 one of the bad guys, because he's an assassin, if we start making analogies on things the same way you're doing. What about Brick torturing prisonners, heck even Maya (as seen in Dragonkeep) is an accomplice of torture in Sanctuary. I mean if we were to find ONE example of a borderline deed and then conclude from there if they are or not as evil and cruel, or if they have principle or not, or hypocrite or not then we'd easily find one such example for each and every VH. And then each and every VH would be a hypocrite ??? Sorry what ???
Things are not that black and white in the Borderlands franchise and you have to see the picture as a whole.
There's only one guy that goes :
...
...
...
And there are literally DOZENS upon DOZENS of examples like this.
How many such examples for Athena ? The so-called example of Cassius ? Is that all you got ?
And just because Athena is seeking revenge on all Atlas for the death of her sister that SHE really cared about, then suddenly it makes her as bad as Jake ? It makes her a hypocrit because of your far-fetched interpretations of so-called similar events ?
This is ridiculous, Athena is one of the most honest and upright character in the whole franchise, along with maybe Maya, Gaige and a couple others. She's not even accustomed to lying, look at how bad she's at lying when in front of Janey in Scooter's garage in Hollow Point.
Heck, by your standard and the way you placate things by making leaping analogies then Tiny Tina would be monster or a hypocrit as well ?
Come on...
You keep criticizing me for a black-and-white view when you seem to be pretty fixated on vindicating Athena on all blame. The series is filled with horrible psychopathic hypocrites. Athena's just one that likes to think of herself as an honorable warrior rather than a bloodthirsty thrill seeker. Heck, episode 3 can have her rail against Cassius for his dishonesty when she was casually lying to her girlfriend just a few minutes before.
And I don't think you understand what the word "placating" means. That is "to cause (someone) to feel less angry about something". Your English in general seems pretty shoddy and confused.
Oh ok I made a mistake with the word "placating" and it has you go Ad-Hominem... Nice...
I'll let other people make their mind, done with you here.
The conversation is over.
Good luck trying to convince people that Athena is some kind of hypocrite while saying stuff like :
That is so Black & White...
I mean seriously...
Oh well...
Thanks for the insult btw...
All of this is wonderfully written and argued, but this part in particular is just so astute and well thought out:
And I wholeheartedly agree that Cassius was practically gift-wrapped by Jack for Athena.
Actually, Jack does state that his death is his own fault, because he refused to work with people he didn't trust.
At first. As soon as it's over he's gushing about the robots and their colours, and only mentions any kind of remorse about it off-handedly.
I just love Aurelia because she's a classy bitch.
They...
They wouldn't.. right?
Kill Vaughn and Sasha, I mean..
Telltale, pls.
I can handle Lee's death purely because he did everything he had to do.. but Sasha and Vaughn still have so much potential
Roland was my main in BL1. It felt like the bullet jumped out of my computer screen and went right through my heart when I saw my favorite character look at the hole in his chest, confused, then fall over with Handsome Jack standing behind him.
RIP.
He took the XP he got from grinding that exercise bike and specced into the "Abs of Buffness" tree rather than the the skilltree which would give him stronger legs.
On Pandora, it's all about where you put those skill points, not what you do to get them.
i laughed my ass off, it was what i said on my first playthrough. i started shipping them now
Yeah, no amount of Jack-a-pedia entries could make up for the the potential loss of Rhysa.
this! AI Jack is Way more of a good guy Type Then The normal Jack. Because the AI from him was Created shortly After the End of TPS. He knows about the Betrayel in TPS, but Thats it. He don't has the Problems of His normal Version After a Death of a Certain someone. He isnt Full Evil at this Point. He is As Evil As in TPS, and that isnt Alot of Evil.
Well, most people agree that the AI is based on BL2 Jack, and as of Episode 3, he has apparently remembered the events of his death. I definitely think he is becoming a better/different person, though.
I am glad someone else thinks that Jack respects Rhys more for holding his ground.
But there is nothing to support it. He HATES you if you refuse to trust him.
Sasha's basically Rhys' Nisha. Hopefully she fares better than her counterpart.
I'm talking about if you agree to team up with Jack, but don't give him control of Rhys. Then they are still buddies, but Rhys has all the power. That is something Jack has to respect.
It's pretty clear that him not taking control then is because he CAN'T, not because he respects Rhys. Jack doesn't seem too fond of defiance, and regardless, he doesn't want Rhys to die.
I've seen this theory floating around the forums a lot, and it definitely gives food for thought. But it still doesn't really have enough to back it up. A problem I have with it is the very beginning, where it appears that Rhys is searching for Fiona, saying "We can work this out" or something like that. It could be part of a clever ruse on the Stranger, but they would have had to have planned on the Stranger capturing Fiona and then going out to get Rhys too. Also, I just buy into the fact that they do hate each other based on what they say and how they say it. Luckily, the answer to whether they are faking it or not will probably be revealed in Episode 4, since it should finally return the game fully to the present day
I guess what i meant was not that they were in on everything together from the beginning of the game, but that once they realized the situation that they were now in (with the Stranger) they would work together against their apparent common enemy.
We don't know Why Rhys was looking for Fiona, maybe he was trying to come to terms with her or warn her of a threat? I agree with you though Someguy, we don't have enough info to come to a real conclusion as of yet. There are just too many possibilities of who the Stranger could be, and what he really wants with Gortys.
He also says something to Rhys (when Vallory catches up with them, in a Trust Fiona playthrough) about how,
'If you don't have any friends, you can't be betrayed by them.'
Which also gives me some hope - that if we are loyal to our friends, and treat Jack as a real part of our group and don't betray him when the opportunity arises - he may come around to a different perspective.
People grow because of others and situations they have to live through. I think Jack has the capability to change...if he has reason to or can see a better way. But i also agree that there's a good to probable likelihood that the first chance he gets, he will fuck us over.
Have you seen all the different variations of the rooftop scene between Jack and Rhys? It contains a lot of insight into his character.
I've definitely seen a few. I like that there are so many variations in he dialogue choices, depending on your previous decisions.
I can't say that i know alot about Jack and his prior transgressions against Pandorans (or everyone really, it seems like), but he is extremely likeable and charming even when he's threatening you. There's hope i think, the longer he has to live 'inside' Rhys the better for his disposition.
He kind of makes me feel like a girl in a bad relationship. I want to help him, i feel like I can change him... If he'll only let me. Yeeesh. Handsome Jack is turning me into an idiot.
To be fair, they totally tried to kill him first.