But the fact remains that there's a very good chance he HASN'T done them. Why should he be judged for crimes he didn't commit? And it would seem a bit weird for him to consider himself someone other than Jack. Even if you were told you were an AI, do you really believe you could think that way so easily? It must be hard to consider that your memories might not even be real.
Honestly, I think people are taking his "threat" at the end of Episode One a little too seriously. I don't doubt he's capable of it, but to me, it didn't really sound like a serious threat. And yes, he tries to kill Rhys, but so do Fiona and Sasha. I'm not saying the guy is a saint.
Jack would have no way of knowing that Rhys would be fine if he didn't take over. Like I said, Rhys was laying there helpless, while a bunch of those weird monsters were right there, actively trying to kill him and Sasha. And that's not even taking into account all the other dangers nearby, along with the revelation that that man was not who he claimed, which they needed to tell the others as soon as possible, in case he meant them harm. If Rhys dies, Jack dies. In Jack's situation, you wouldn't have attempted to take over? You would have left your host, and technically yourself-lay there defenseless, with a bunch of dangerous enemies coming right for you? And what's wrong with wanting to have a body again, even if only briefly? Who wouldn't in that situation? And Atlus are kind of the bad guys too, and that guy totally lied to us. I'd hardly call that trying to get an innocent person killed.
Personally, I don't feel like the AI was lying, and I'd be really disappointed if they rendered your choices regarding him pointless by trying to say that he was. And if getting Rhys' trust is all he cares about, then it seems a little odd that his tone changes so completely if you refuse to trust him on top of the caravan.
Why shouldn't he be judged on those things? He hasn't denied doing them and doesn't show any remorse for what the "Real" Jack did. He still … morerefers to himself as Handsome Jack and everything. He never tries to say there's a difference between him and the "Real" Jack when talking to Rhys. His behavior in Tales has been classic Handsome Jack. He's outright threatened to kill the protagonists, remember? He was even trying to strangle Rhys in their first conversation.
Him taking over Rhys on its own is totally a strike against him. In playthroughs where Rhys sides with Fiona in Episode 2, Jack doesn't take control of him, yet Rhys survives anyway. That proves Jack didn't need to do it to save Rhys' life, he just wanted a body again. And what did he do with that body? One of his first acts actually was to try and get someone killed (Cassius, who really didn't deserve it), in addition to being a douche to everyone.
He is beyond redemption. No … [view original content]
The fact also remains he still identifies himself as Handsome Jack, evil deeds and all, and you can't just brush that under the rug. It's not like he's ever shown any regret over the horrible things done by the "Real" Jack and all the countless lives destroyed by the "Real" Jack. As for the threat, it sounded real to me. It's not like Handsome Jack is known for not killing people when he's done with them.
I can't really say what I'd do if I were an AI based on the mind of a murderous megalomaniac trapped in someone else's skull, true, but like you said, if Rhys dies then Jack dies. He only saved Rhys because it was the only way to save himself. Again, though, stealing someone else's body is incredibly shady at best even without the way Jack acts when he's fully in control. How would you feel if a murderous AI stole your body without your consent and did the things Jack did? And the way you say "Briefly" implies that Jack was planning to give Rhys his body back later on. If you don't agree to an alliance with him after trusting Fiona in Episode 2 he'll tell you to "Enjoy that body while it's yours." That makes it clear as day to me that he's only sweet talking Rhys to get his way.
As for the scientist, Atlas is long gone. Athena murders Atlas employees because the Atlas military command tricked her into killing her own sister. Cassius, as a scientist (Which Athena was made aware of), had nothing to do with that decision. In fact, because of Athena's pursuit that guy lost his wife and son and was forced to hide out in that dome for years. Again, he had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to Athena's sister. Rhys and Vaughn work for Hyperion, and Hyperion are even badder bad guys than Atlas, yet you take issue with Fiona and Sasha trying to kill them. Why do they get sympathy and not Cassius? He's obviously sorry for what happened to Athena's sister while Rhys wants to be the new Handsome Jack (At least in the beginning, when Fiona and Sasha were actually trying to kill him).
We're arguing in circles now, essentially repeating the same points over and over again. How about we wait until the next Episode comes out and see what transpires before going at it again? It seems obvious neither of us is going to convince the other of anything with what we currently have.
But the fact remains that there's a very good chance he HASN'T done them. Why should he be judged for crimes he didn't commit? And it woul… mored seem a bit weird for him to consider himself someone other than Jack. Even if you were told you were an AI, do you really believe you could think that way so easily? It must be hard to consider that your memories might not even be real.
Honestly, I think people are taking his "threat" at the end of Episode One a little too seriously. I don't doubt he's capable of it, but to me, it didn't really sound like a serious threat. And yes, he tries to kill Rhys, but so do Fiona and Sasha. I'm not saying the guy is a saint.
Jack would have no way of knowing that Rhys would be fine if he didn't take over. Like I said, Rhys was laying there helpless, while a bunch of those weird monsters were right there, actively trying to kill him and Sasha. And that's not even taking into account all the other dan… [view original content]
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Lol!
I guess it just worries me that he can do so much damage to our relationships/friendships in so little time, while - like you said - actively trying to HELP us.
Hehehe. "Cupcake". Heh.
It really DID seem like Jack was trying to help Rhys by taking over. You know, so he didn't get killed by incredi… morebly slow, Avatar-esque, murderous flying jellyfish? But.......his personality, man...........just being himself makes 99% of people want to punch him out. Which actually happened. Wonderful work, Rhack.......though Troy Baker DID do a good Jack, didn't he? Sorry, tangent.
Anyway, yeah, NOBDOY wants an angry Jack in their head (for obvious reasons), but a douche-y, murder-y Jack that's actively trying to help you REALLY isn't that much better. I think he was trying to be nice, though, just in general? I mean, like when he got all buddy-buddy with Athena and tried to serve Cassius up to her on a silver platter?
I'm just saying that too many people are blaming him for things he hasn't done. It's one thing to be bothered by the idea that he sees nothing wrong with those things, but I still think it's too much to blame him for them.
No one would like another person having control of their body, regardless of how they acted, I'd imagine. But there was no other option, really. It was either that or leave Rhys, and himself, defenseless. And also, the one person who could potentially help protect him was still up on the elevator. But I feel the opposite in regards to what he says on top of the caravan in your scenario. If he was putting that much effort into sweet talking and manipulating Rhys, it seems strange that he would stop so easily. And if he was that interested in messing things up with the group, he could have easily killed Sasha while they were alone.
I am not saying Cassius is a good or bad person. I'm saying that Jack obviously wouldn't see him as such, and neither would Athena, especially when you consider that he lied about his identity. I'm not okay with Athena going after every single Atlas employee, which is why I stopped her from killing him.
The fact also remains he still identifies himself as Handsome Jack, evil deeds and all, and you can't just brush that under the rug. It's no… moret like he's ever shown any regret over the horrible things done by the "Real" Jack and all the countless lives destroyed by the "Real" Jack. As for the threat, it sounded real to me. It's not like Handsome Jack is known for not killing people when he's done with them.
I can't really say what I'd do if I were an AI based on the mind of a murderous megalomaniac trapped in someone else's skull, true, but like you said, if Rhys dies then Jack dies. He only saved Rhys because it was the only way to save himself. Again, though, stealing someone else's body is incredibly shady at best even without the way Jack acts when he's fully in control. How would you feel if a murderous AI stole your body without your consent and did the things Jack did? And the way you say "Briefly" implies that Jack was planning to gi… [view original content]
We do have to do something while waiting, but I just can't find the strength to debate when nobody will make any progress. Three months of this circle talk would turn me into a Psycho, and I prefer my arguments more when I'm not railing on about the wonders of Poop Trains.
EDIT: Besides, I've got Borderlands 2 and TPS, so I've already got something to do while waiting for the next Episode :P
I'm just saying that too many people are blaming him for things he hasn't done. It's one thing to be bothered by the idea that he sees noth… moreing wrong with those things, but I still think it's too much to blame him for them.
No one would like another person having control of their body, regardless of how they acted, I'd imagine. But there was no other option, really. It was either that or leave Rhys, and himself, defenseless. And also, the one person who could potentially help protect him was still up on the elevator. But I feel the opposite in regards to what he says on top of the caravan in your scenario. If he was putting that much effort into sweet talking and manipulating Rhys, it seems strange that he would stop so easily. And if he was that interested in messing things up with the group, he could have easily killed Sasha while they were alone.
I am not saying Cassius is a good or bad person. I'm saying that Jack obviously w… [view original content]
In the end I think it depends on how you viewed Jack in BL2 and TPS. A lot of players saw him as the big bad villain, a lot of others saw him as the real hero of the story, like he himself said.
I personally like Jack more than every other Borderlands character combined. Whether he's being honest with Rhys or not, he's the most dangerous individual, one-to-one, on Pandora. He's an ally worth having, even if the alliance is temporary.
I can't remember if I said this here or in another topic, but I wonder if the talk might be foreshadowing an instance where not trusting Jack will have serious negative consequences for your team.
You know, if Jack hadn't poisoned Wilhelm, someone who was incredibly loyal to him and never ever betrayed his trust, I'd be a little more optimistic about this alliance.
Still chose to trust him though because I just gotta see the cosmic train wreck that'll result from doing so.
You know, if Jack hadn't poisoned Wilhelm, someone who was incredibly loyal to him and never ever betrayed his trust, I'd be a little more o… moreptimistic about this alliance.
Still chose to trust him though because I just gotta see the cosmic train wreck that'll result from doing so.
That's not the point The point is, is that betrayed someone that was completely loyal to him and didn't show any signs of treachery, just so he could get a chance at wrecking Sanctuary.
So even if you're square with Jack, and he doesn't think that you're going to go against him like he did with Gladstone, you're still not safe is what I'm saying.
That's not the point The point is, is that betrayed someone that was completely loyal to him and didn't show any signs of treachery, just so… more he could get a chance at wrecking Sanctuary.
So even if you're square with Jack, and he doesn't think that you're going to go against him like he did with Gladstone, you're still not safe is what I'm saying.
Who the heck could possibly think that he's the real hero of the story? I mean, he's a super entertaining character, but he's a terrible person with a endless list of horrific crimes and zero self-awareness. He had to be that terrible to be the villain to our Vault Hunter "heroes" -- since besides the possible exceptions of Maya and Roland, all of them are generally assholes who murder indiscriminately for money.
In the end I think it depends on how you viewed Jack in BL2 and TPS. A lot of players saw him as the big bad villain, a lot of others saw hi… morem as the real hero of the story, like he himself said.
I personally like Jack more than every other Borderlands character combined. Whether he's being honest with Rhys or not, he's the most dangerous individual, one-to-one, on Pandora. He's an ally worth having, even if the alliance is temporary.
It's pretty canon. In the Handsome Jack AMA it was mentioned that they forgot to put the line in so it became super confusing and illogical in the story. They had entirely meant for it to be canon.
I've just replayed the episode (again) and I think what's a neat bit of possible foreshadowing is actually Fiona's attitude in the present day segments right after the caravan roof chat with Jack - if you refused to trust him and she's surprised 'you had it in you', Rhys still stays silent and looks downcast, but Fiona makes a sad face as well, as if she was pitying him or something. If you trusted Jack she reacts to Rhys' gloom with a disgusted sneer.
So, hopefully, our rapport with Jack does fundamentally affect the plot in some way...
I hope so too, in a good way. Well, even if Jack does something nice, it's not like she'd be able to see it.
I think it's really great writing that the "worst" choices you can make regarding Jack are to trust him in Episode Two, then refuse to trust him in Episode Three.
I've just replayed the episode (again) and I think what's a neat bit of possible foreshadowing is actually Fiona's attitude in the present d… moreay segments right after the caravan roof chat with Jack - if you refused to trust him and she's surprised 'you had it in you', Rhys still stays silent and looks downcast, but Fiona makes a sad face as well, as if she was pitying him or something. If you trusted Jack she reacts to Rhys' gloom with a disgusted sneer.
So, hopefully, our rapport with Jack does fundamentally affect the plot in some way...
I hope so too, in a good way. Well, even if Jack does something nice, it's not like she'd be able to see it.
I think it's really great w… moreriting that the "worst" choices you can make regarding Jack are to trust him in Episode Two, then refuse to trust him in Episode Three.
Comments
Well, not having a body or really being able to influence all that much anymore probably gives him time to think seriously.
But the fact remains that there's a very good chance he HASN'T done them. Why should he be judged for crimes he didn't commit? And it would seem a bit weird for him to consider himself someone other than Jack. Even if you were told you were an AI, do you really believe you could think that way so easily? It must be hard to consider that your memories might not even be real.
Honestly, I think people are taking his "threat" at the end of Episode One a little too seriously. I don't doubt he's capable of it, but to me, it didn't really sound like a serious threat. And yes, he tries to kill Rhys, but so do Fiona and Sasha. I'm not saying the guy is a saint.
Jack would have no way of knowing that Rhys would be fine if he didn't take over. Like I said, Rhys was laying there helpless, while a bunch of those weird monsters were right there, actively trying to kill him and Sasha. And that's not even taking into account all the other dangers nearby, along with the revelation that that man was not who he claimed, which they needed to tell the others as soon as possible, in case he meant them harm. If Rhys dies, Jack dies. In Jack's situation, you wouldn't have attempted to take over? You would have left your host, and technically yourself-lay there defenseless, with a bunch of dangerous enemies coming right for you? And what's wrong with wanting to have a body again, even if only briefly? Who wouldn't in that situation? And Atlus are kind of the bad guys too, and that guy totally lied to us. I'd hardly call that trying to get an innocent person killed.
Personally, I don't feel like the AI was lying, and I'd be really disappointed if they rendered your choices regarding him pointless by trying to say that he was. And if getting Rhys' trust is all he cares about, then it seems a little odd that his tone changes so completely if you refuse to trust him on top of the caravan.
The fact also remains he still identifies himself as Handsome Jack, evil deeds and all, and you can't just brush that under the rug. It's not like he's ever shown any regret over the horrible things done by the "Real" Jack and all the countless lives destroyed by the "Real" Jack. As for the threat, it sounded real to me. It's not like Handsome Jack is known for not killing people when he's done with them.
I can't really say what I'd do if I were an AI based on the mind of a murderous megalomaniac trapped in someone else's skull, true, but like you said, if Rhys dies then Jack dies. He only saved Rhys because it was the only way to save himself. Again, though, stealing someone else's body is incredibly shady at best even without the way Jack acts when he's fully in control. How would you feel if a murderous AI stole your body without your consent and did the things Jack did? And the way you say "Briefly" implies that Jack was planning to give Rhys his body back later on. If you don't agree to an alliance with him after trusting Fiona in Episode 2 he'll tell you to "Enjoy that body while it's yours." That makes it clear as day to me that he's only sweet talking Rhys to get his way.
As for the scientist, Atlas is long gone. Athena murders Atlas employees because the Atlas military command tricked her into killing her own sister. Cassius, as a scientist (Which Athena was made aware of), had nothing to do with that decision. In fact, because of Athena's pursuit that guy lost his wife and son and was forced to hide out in that dome for years. Again, he had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to Athena's sister. Rhys and Vaughn work for Hyperion, and Hyperion are even badder bad guys than Atlas, yet you take issue with Fiona and Sasha trying to kill them. Why do they get sympathy and not Cassius? He's obviously sorry for what happened to Athena's sister while Rhys wants to be the new Handsome Jack (At least in the beginning, when Fiona and Sasha were actually trying to kill him).
We're arguing in circles now, essentially repeating the same points over and over again. How about we wait until the next Episode comes out and see what transpires before going at it again? It seems obvious neither of us is going to convince the other of anything with what we currently have.
To be fair, that was mostly because he knew how much she wanted to kill him.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Lol!
I guess it just worries me that he can do so much damage to our relationships/friendships in so little time, while - like you said - actively trying to HELP us.
I'm just saying that too many people are blaming him for things he hasn't done. It's one thing to be bothered by the idea that he sees nothing wrong with those things, but I still think it's too much to blame him for them.
No one would like another person having control of their body, regardless of how they acted, I'd imagine. But there was no other option, really. It was either that or leave Rhys, and himself, defenseless. And also, the one person who could potentially help protect him was still up on the elevator. But I feel the opposite in regards to what he says on top of the caravan in your scenario. If he was putting that much effort into sweet talking and manipulating Rhys, it seems strange that he would stop so easily. And if he was that interested in messing things up with the group, he could have easily killed Sasha while they were alone.
I am not saying Cassius is a good or bad person. I'm saying that Jack obviously wouldn't see him as such, and neither would Athena, especially when you consider that he lied about his identity. I'm not okay with Athena going after every single Atlas employee, which is why I stopped her from killing him.
But we have to do SOMETHING while waiting.@_@
This was one of my favorite Jack o'pedia entries.
I laughed so hard, then i went to look at more mushrooms, just to fuck with him
We do have to do something while waiting, but I just can't find the strength to debate when nobody will make any progress. Three months of this circle talk would turn me into a Psycho, and I prefer my arguments more when I'm not railing on about the wonders of Poop Trains.
EDIT: Besides, I've got Borderlands 2 and TPS, so I've already got something to do while waiting for the next Episode :P
If Rhys were to die, would that be the fall of Rhysha and Rhyiona?
That is the most innocent thing I've ever heard.
In the end I think it depends on how you viewed Jack in BL2 and TPS. A lot of players saw him as the big bad villain, a lot of others saw him as the real hero of the story, like he himself said.
I personally like Jack more than every other Borderlands character combined. Whether he's being honest with Rhys or not, he's the most dangerous individual, one-to-one, on Pandora. He's an ally worth having, even if the alliance is temporary.
I can't remember if I said this here or in another topic, but I wonder if the talk might be foreshadowing an instance where not trusting Jack will have serious negative consequences for your team.
Still got that Rhack feelings tho.
I'm wondering if Jack isn't trying to scare Rhys in to trusting him if you sided with Fiona?
That's definitely not Jack trying to scare someone into something.
Right...
OK, I take that back.
Besides Gortys thinking Vasquez was sleeping though lol
You know, if Jack hadn't poisoned Wilhelm, someone who was incredibly loyal to him and never ever betrayed his trust, I'd be a little more optimistic about this alliance.
Still chose to trust him though because I just gotta see the cosmic train wreck that'll result from doing so.
Isn't that from an unused thing, though?
I doubt he'll poison us, though, considering we share a body.
That's not the point The point is, is that betrayed someone that was completely loyal to him and didn't show any signs of treachery, just so he could get a chance at wrecking Sanctuary.
So even if you're square with Jack, and he doesn't think that you're going to go against him like he did with Gladstone, you're still not safe is what I'm saying.
If it's unused, though, it's not canon, most likely.
Who the heck could possibly think that he's the real hero of the story? I mean, he's a super entertaining character, but he's a terrible person with a endless list of horrific crimes and zero self-awareness. He had to be that terrible to be the villain to our Vault Hunter "heroes" -- since besides the possible exceptions of Maya and Roland, all of them are generally assholes who murder indiscriminately for money.
It's pretty canon. In the Handsome Jack AMA it was mentioned that they forgot to put the line in so it became super confusing and illogical in the story. They had entirely meant for it to be canon.
I've just replayed the episode (again) and I think what's a neat bit of possible foreshadowing is actually Fiona's attitude in the present day segments right after the caravan roof chat with Jack - if you refused to trust him and she's surprised 'you had it in you', Rhys still stays silent and looks downcast, but Fiona makes a sad face as well, as if she was pitying him or something. If you trusted Jack she reacts to Rhys' gloom with a disgusted sneer.
So, hopefully, our rapport with Jack does fundamentally affect the plot in some way...
I hope so too, in a good way. Well, even if Jack does something nice, it's not like she'd be able to see it.
I think it's really great writing that the "worst" choices you can make regarding Jack are to trust him in Episode Two, then refuse to trust him in Episode Three.
I just realized Fiona + Jack = Fack.
FACK FTW!!
Agreed (For once), since the literal worst thing you can do to Jack is betray him in anyway. Fits in neatly with his character.