Transgender and transrace
EDIT: Keep it civil, and keep it on topic. If you derail the thread I will be most displeased with you and spread rumors behind your back!
EDIT 2: So far I believe Flog has the upper hand in the discussion. One is determined by chemical differences in the brain (gender) while the other has nothing to do with the brain. Therefore they are not the same issue. Unless someone has anything to the contrary....
So many people here are in support of transgender issues. I have an honest inquiry, if someone can choose to be a different gender than what they are normally perceived as, is it okay for them to choose to be a different race than they are normally perceived as? If one is acceptable but not the other, why? Is one only a state of mind but the other is genetic? If you support both, or you support neither, then this obviously doesn't apply to you.
Comments
Transrace?
Ugh, I made jokes about this, should've known people would start meaning it.
If people want to support transgender, then they need to support "transrace" as well. It's the exact same sort of illogical thinking.
^
Except transgenderism is an actual biological thing, where a child's brain gets flushed with different hormones than it should in the womb, whereas that is medically impossible with race.
See, this is the truth.
Sexuality and gender is actually determined by chemicals within the brain while race is determined by ancestry and genes.
source on that?
Influenced by hormones or not (honestly haven't researched this point enough to have an opinion on what percentage of transsexuals are actually affected by this), the fact remains that the individual is deluded into thinking they are something they are not. In each case, the individual should be helped through their delusions, and not enabled.
There are theories that this is what causes gender dysphoria in some transexual individuals. It's doubtful that this is true for every single individual, even if accurate.
why exactly?
I once knew a girl at my school who thought she was a horse and would sometimes act like one. I say live and let live.
Anyone with half a brain can tell where this thread is starting to go, fellow forum members let's take a seat and gather the popcorn until this thread inevitably gets shut down.
So if being transgender is a result of hormone imbalance shouldn't it be treated with hormones to fix it? I don't mean to be rude but I'm really wondering.
The problem comes with viewing it as an imbalance. Some men have loads more testosterone than average, but we let them live their lives as normal rather than forcing tem to undergo hormone therapy (which has horrific moral implications regardless - people shouldn't be forced to undergo unnecessary procedures).
We'll probably just get the thread locked if we go down this path, so I'll just briefly say that I believe being transgender causes more harm than good to the person going through gender dsyphoria. On top of that, not everyone is going to accept/ be comfortable with someone self identifying as a different gender just because that person's brain is telling them otherwise.
i assume men with tons of testosterone don't have gender dysphoria and don't go trough emotional turmoil because of it, they just go bald
i do agree personality-changing hormones are a bit far on the fucked-up meter, but that's not terribly different from psychoactive drugs
and i'm pretty sure treatment isn't mandatory for everything.
Even if it were unrelated to hormones - which scientific consensus disagree with - why is it a problem if they hurt no one?
Trams individuals have been shown to have massively increased levels of happiness after surgery.
It's like (if it were unrelated to hormones) if you have crooked teeth and you hate them. In this scenario, you could either undergo injections to make you not care about your teeth, or you could have braces and make them not crooked. Either route hurts no one, either route is fine and people who wish to have braces should not be forced to have injections.
In this case, someone wants to change sex. They can either undergo a steam of therapy which hasn't proven to be successful at all, or they can change their sex. No one is harmed by them changing sex, least of all themselves.
Lots of this rhetoric is the same as used by homophobes - that gay people are troubled in the head and should undergo therapy - which doesn't even work and only makes the individual less happy/sometimes suicidal - rather than enjoy their lives as they are as being gay isn't innately harmful. I guess this is why trans rights run parallel to gay rights - their opponents are preaching the same.
I hope not. Flog has put forth a convincing argument. I'm waiting to see if anyone can rebuttal effectively. Perhaps we will get a link to a study indicating that race can influence chemical differentiation in the brain, even if minor this would indicate that race is, once again, on the same battlefield as gender (in terms of "trans" individuals being correct in changing/trying to change what they are perceived as).
Yeah. I'm getting pretty sick of this topic, honestly. Though admittedly this particular thread seems more mature/academic than I've come to expect. But yeah, I think I'll just watch and sit this one out.
Can't wait until a certain user comes back from her ban and starts a flame war over this.
I hope a "certain person" has forgotten about this forum.
You're ignoring the large fact that they are pretending to be something that they are not. I disagree with you on the notion that they are not hurting anyone. They are hurting themselves, through living a lie and not being in touch with reality. They will never fully integrate within society, because you cannot force other people to be comfortable with someone invading their separate sex privacy just based on the fact that transexuals are dealing with a mental disorder (or simply delusion). It will never be natural and real, and I think they know that. On top of that, if they go through a sex change procedure, they obviously mutilate themselves in the process. That isn't something that you can easily come back from, and it can lead to massive regret. With these things combined, it's no wonder their suicide rates are as high as they are.
Are you talking about immediately after surgery, or just in general? Can you be more specific? Obviously they aren't very happy in general, considering the large amount who kill themselves. Speaking to their happiness immediately following surgery doesn't really mean much.
It's not the same thing at all. Homosexuals aren't pretending to be something that they are not.. they're simply attracted to members of the same sex.
Her profile pictures says "Stay Calm. I'll be back in 2 weeks". So I'm not holding my breath.
Does anyone know if that has ever been researched?
Seriously? Even after I....
I haven't the slightest clue. I'm afraid that in our day and age, as Stardusk pointed out, that such questioning would likely be highly scrutinized just for treading on ground people are uncomfortable with. Even if it has been studied, I have my doubts it would ever be published.
I know what it means lol. I just think it doesn't make much sense.
Okay, but I asked for people to not derail the thread.
Sorry
I'm confused what you even mean by this.
Is this going to continue on as a "is transgender okay/good"? If so, is that going to relate to the topic at hand? No offence, I'm actually just interested in the question in the OP for this thread.
I would agree that the two aren't always exactly the same, but I don't believe they should be looked at differently in terms of enabling one and being against the other. The cause of the delusion doesn't change the fact that these people are in fact deluded, and should receive help.
bodymodding is legal
I actually just gave you a post more relevant to your initial question
Anyway, it's all kind of related in my opinion.
Just wait till she starts insulting people again, it wont take long.
Flog has pointed out that gender is relegated to differences in the brain, while race is only physical differences. Making them two seperate issues. If someone could provide evidence that race is, at least in part (even if extremely minor), difference in the brain then they would be a part of the same issue again. That would be a very difficult experiment to produce, though. That also begs the question if gender is mostly social construct, at which point "transgenderism" would be, mostly, on the same field as race... again.
For transgender people, that is their reality. Going through their lives with the itch in the back of their head that something is wrong with their body which is what leads to some deciding to transition towards their desired gender. It's much easier to mold the body to match the brain than it is to mold the brain to match the body.
There's so many more factors involved than just the sex change procedure. The person's race. Their education (or lack of). Lack of employment. Financial poverty. Physical/sexual assault. Discrimination. Rejection from family. It's not something that boils down to just "did this person undergo sex change surgery?"
What about the people who are told that they "have a disease" and need extensive therapy because homosexuality is "wrong?" It is very much the same issue. Either way, the person is being told that what they feel isn't correct and they need to be "fixed," which in the end is just BS.
i saw someone that sounded fairly similar to a white supremacist posting a scientific paper suggesting thet melanin influences behaviour on youtube, does this count? because i'd have to look for it
You think race has connections to chemical balances within the brain? I apologize but that sounds ridiculous. To think some people are black and some are white or Asian or whatever because they have different chemicals in the brain is...ridiculous. Thinking that immediately, it sounds plausible but if you think about it a bit more...it doesn't. Race is based on genes and parentage, it's impossible for two white parents to birth a fully black child unless one of the parents isn't fully white.
Perhaps, perhaps not. That's why I mentioned the possibility of someone providing a study for this line of questioning. I never said that I thought it did, and in fact I doubt it does, but that doesn't mean I'm correct or that it doesn't. If it were true, as I said earlier, it would put them back together as related issues (transgender and transrace).
Yes. Provide him now so I may pass him off as an intellectual and continue my push for white supremacy!
Of course, just kidding, but I am curious what experimentation has been preformed on the topic.