Your example of that could've been excellent... if only there was someone who called any male character from TftB an asshole solely because of the way he acts while defending a female character who possesses the exact same traits. But so far we have 2 threads about people not liking Fiona and no one else.
Heh, I love how confident, rude women aren't allowed to be called bitches anymore while confident rude men still are and always have been assholes, no debate.
You are seeing this from a myopic view. Plenty of people have had Rhys in their cross hairs and a lot of people don't like his character. However, not liking him or liking Jack has never been turned into a bigger issue and no one has implied misandry for not liking him.
Fiona has become an issue because you created it by making accusation against people you don't even know, and making assumptions about their motivations instead of accepting that people can have earnest and differing opinions that you and not be bad people because of it. That is my final thought on the subject.
Your example of that could've been excellent... if only there was someone who called any male character from TftB an asshole solely because … moreof the way he acts while defending a female character who possesses the exact same traits. But so far we have 2 threads about people not liking Fiona and no one else.
I really want at least a single example of someone who dislikes Rhys at least half as much. And example from this forum since we've only been discussing it's audience. Cause I haven't seen even a single person saying that they dislike Rhys. Moreover, thought obviously not everyone were psyched about Vasquez, Vaughn August or Jack, no one felt the need to dedicate a whole thread to discuss how much they suck. But this is the second thread about Fiona. So you might check your facts first next time.
Fiona has become an issue because you created it by making accusation against people you don't even know, and making assumptions about their motivations instead of accepting that people can have earnest and differing opinions that you and not be bad people because of it
I was talking with TheRatPack55 and made it clear that no one has to agree with anything I said there. The same goes for OP's views about Fiona. Clearly some people will share them, but majority won't.
You are seeing this from a myopic view. Plenty of people have had Rhys in their cross hairs and a lot of people don't like his character. Ho… morewever, not liking him or liking Jack has never been turned into a bigger issue and no one has implied misandry for not liking him.
Fiona has become an issue because you created it by making accusation against people you don't even know, and making assumptions about their motivations instead of accepting that people can have earnest and differing opinions that you and not be bad people because of it. That is my final thought on the subject.
Wasn't really fond of Fiona until episode three when she got some actual time in the spotlight and character development. But not really for the reasons you described, but I'm sure there are a lot of people in these forums who dislike Fiona as there are probably some who dislike Rhys as well.
As I say, each to their own, but I definitely feel where you're coming from in the sense of disliking her.
Um, did anyone tell you you couldn't put up a thread asking who hates Rhys? Why are you condemning people for something you aren't willing to do yourself? It's no ones responsibility to make you feel good or that they are being equal. Don't like it, you can change it. All you are doing is attacking people on a personal level because you don't like something and put your own notions of motive on them.
I really want at least a single example of someone who dislikes Rhys at least half as much. And example from this forum since we've only bee… moren discussing it's audience. Cause I haven't seen even a single person saying that they dislike Rhys. Moreover, thought obviously not everyone were psyched about Vasquez, Vaughn August or Jack, no one felt the need to dedicate a whole thread to discuss how much they suck. But this is the second thread about Fiona. So you might check your facts first next time.
Fiona has become an issue because you created it by making accusation against people you don't even know, and making assumptions about their motivations instead of accepting that people can have earnest and differing opinions that you and not be bad people because of it
I was talking with TheRatPack55 and made it clear that no one has to agree with anything I said there. The same goes for OP's views about Fiona. Clearly some people will share them, but majority won't.
Well, Vasquez is an asshole because he's rude and arrogant and selfish, obviously. Rhys is too, in a less vocal manner depending on how you play him, and neither can get away with anything without being treated like a bit of an ass by the characters around them and the audience.
Fiona, on the other hand, is condescending as hell, greedy, abusive, callous depending on how you play her(I've replayed the first three episodes and definitely changed my mind about her "compassion"), and pretentious, and nobody ever calls her on it except for Rhys weakly muttering "you're a horrible person..." or something like that one of the many, many times she puts him down or beats on him without the slightest provocation. Were she a real human being, few would hesitate to call her a bitch.
I don't see what "while defending a female character" has to do with anything. Rhys gets all the punishment he deserves for being an asshole in-game, Fiona doesn't. I don't see how a few hate-threads are unfair in that situation, and it has nothing to do with gender issues except perhaps for the values dissonance that inexplicably makes Fiona's behavior out to be excusable.
Your example of that could've been excellent... if only there was someone who called any male character from TftB an asshole solely because … moreof the way he acts while defending a female character who possesses the exact same traits. But so far we have 2 threads about people not liking Fiona and no one else.
Maybe cause I don't hate or dislike Rhys (I can't even say I dislike Vasquez because despite everything he's done I don't really feel much for him) so it makes zero sense for me to make one.
If you're feel "attacked", you can just stop reading. I made it clear that I don't expect you or anyone to agree and that's not to mention I wasn't even talking about you or even OP specifically.
Um, did anyone tell you you couldn't put up a thread asking who hates Rhys? Why are you condemning people for something you aren't willing t… moreo do yourself? It's no ones responsibility to make you feel good or that they are being equal. Don't like it, you can change it. All you are doing is attacking people on a personal level because you don't like something and put your own notions of motive on them.
Well, Vasquez is an asshole because he's rude and arrogant and selfish, obviously. Rhys is too, in a less vocal manner depending on how you play him
Yes, well, and yet no one bats an eye.
Fiona, on the other hand, is condescending as hell, greedy, abusive, callous depending on how you play her
Well I kinda already said that, you can't just call somebody you're controlling an asshole when you're the one who makes her act like an asshole. It's like saying that Rhys is an asshole because you make him betray Vaughn or trust Jack and shoot at Vasquez (or August) - and since we know that they've been friends with Vaughn for a long time he doesn't even has a reason to do it. The same goes to Jack. We have plenty of options in those situations, you just decided to bring the worts in character.
Rhys gets all the punishment he deserves for being an asshole in-game
He gets nothing (if it's not for commdey effect) because most of the times when he's around Vasquez he punches him anyway. So he gets majority of it from Vasquez and a little from Vallory after he insults her. As Fiona doesn't have an unstable boss and don't just go and insult people she meets there's no real reason to punch her. But as you put it she got what she deserved in the end of ep3 and ep1 when August was trying to kill her (all of them I mean, including Sasha and Felix) in ep1 so.
Well, Vasquez is an asshole because he's rude and arrogant and selfish, obviously. Rhys is too, in a less vocal manner depending on how you … moreplay him, and neither can get away with anything without being treated like a bit of an ass by the characters around them and the audience.
Fiona, on the other hand, is condescending as hell, greedy, abusive, callous depending on how you play her(I've replayed the first three episodes and definitely changed my mind about her "compassion"), and pretentious, and nobody ever calls her on it except for Rhys weakly muttering "you're a horrible person..." or something like that one of the many, many times she puts him down or beats on him without the slightest provocation. Were she a real human being, few would hesitate to call her a bitch.
I don't see what "while defending a female character" has to do with anything. Rhys gets all the punishment he deserves for being an asshole in-game, Fiona doesn't. I … [view original content]
Like I said, that's because both Rhys and Vasquez are humiliated, beaten up and punished for existing all the time. Bad karma or whatever. But for some reason Fiona never is, and so the story is unfairly and unjustifiably favoring her. Cue a hate-thread here and there. What's so wrong about that?
Well I kinda already said that, you can't just call somebody you're controlling an asshole when you're the one who makes her act like an asshole
I meant that only her callousness is vaguely dependent on the player's choice. The other traits are perfectly evident in her default dialogue and behavior, which on an unrelated note kinda forces people who care about character consistency to pick dialogue options in line with that. That's another problem I have with her.
He gets nothing (if it's not for commdey effect) because most of the times when he's around Vasquez he punches him anyway.
What? Have you ever fallen on top of a computer from a height of several meters, landing on your back? The sweetest girl I know is in a wheelchair counting herself damn lucky that she survived a fall like that, never mind the chronic pain. Have you ever been dangled out of and subsequently thrown off two speeding vehicles in the span of a week? Have you ever had someone punch you in the neck because they felt like it? Ever been headbutted, however amateurishly, not to mention countless other instances of minor head trauma? Ever received an elbow to your gut with the weight of a three-foot shotgun behind it, again because someone just felt like it? It's not even close to funny to imagine any of this happening to a real person.
To compare, Fiona has accidentally stumbled into a motorcycle, been dangled a bit upside-down, taken a minor fall and received one admittedly very hard punch to the face. And she's supposed to be more action-y than Rhys. It just doesn't measure up, not even remotely.
Not to mention a lifetime of theft and betrayal compared to years and years of hard legitimate work, for Hyperion or not. Going by default dialogue and background alone, I don't see why she deserves better treatment than he does. Rhys doesn't "just go and insult people". I can't remember a single instance where he does that without that person insulting him first. I can remember several where Fiona does. Namely towards Rhys. Namely outside the player's control.
Well, Vasquez is an asshole because he's rude and arrogant and selfish, obviously. Rhys is too, in a less vocal manner depending on how you … moreplay him
Yes, well, and yet no one bats an eye.
Fiona, on the other hand, is condescending as hell, greedy, abusive, callous depending on how you play her
Well I kinda already said that, you can't just call somebody you're controlling an asshole when you're the one who makes her act like an asshole. It's like saying that Rhys is an asshole because you make him betray Vaughn or trust Jack and shoot at Vasquez (or August) - and since we know that they've been friends with Vaughn for a long time he doesn't even has a reason to do it. The same goes to Jack. We have plenty of options in those situations, you just decided to bring the worts in character.
Rhys gets all the punishment he deserves for being an asshole in-game
He gets nothing (if it's not for commdey effect) beca… [view original content]
What? Have you ever fallen on top of a computer from a height of several meters, landing on your back? There are people driving around wheelchairs right this minute, counting themselves damn lucky that they survived a fall like that
Now that is just ridiculous. It's not some instant karma, it's just Rhys being clumsy for no real reason but a comedy effect + showing us how to get Jack out of his head for a moment. Someone's reading into what supposed to be funny way too much (and I'm not saying that you should find it funny or Vasquez's violence funny, but it sure won't hurt taking it all more lightly as it's not some GOT or TWD).
Rhys doesn't "just go and insult people". I can't remember a single instance where he does that without that person insulting him first.
He does that to Vallory in the end of ep3 and gets punched in the guts - "I dunno what I'm supposed to be more scared of — the oversized piece of crap that belches fire, or the rocket launcher she's holding". He can throw some insults at Jack (not that much, but still):
He can call Rudiger a Greasy face and shit will go down even faster if he does.
It's all about choices. You can even avoid most of Vasquez's attacks if you won't provoke him more than the game requires (for the plot reasons). And in ep2 Vasquez wasn't really insulting Rhys at the moment, on the contrary, he was quite friendly(ish) but you have an option to call him a Wallethead or say rude things about his hair implants.
Plus, that's not about people but talking about "condescending" - Rhys can say 4 to 5 times how much he detests Pandora (in episode 1 on the platform with zer0,2 times near/in Atlas facility and 1-2 times in ep 3 in dialogues with Sasha) and assume that all Pandorans are alike (which results in Sasha either calling him out on it or just telling him she doesn't like it).
So nah, you didn't really proved it. But there's actually no need for justfications as long as it's your subjective feelings.
I can remember several where Fiona does. Namely towards Rhys.
I can't remember any that we can't control excluding the beginning of ep1 where they both were throwing feces at one another. Everything else is our decisions.
Yes, well, and yet no one bats an eye.
Like I said, that's because both Rhys and Vasquez are humiliated, beaten up and punished for … moreexisting all the time. Bad karma or whatever. But for some reason Fiona never is, and so the story is unfairly and unjustifiably favoring her. Cue a hate-thread here and there. What's so wrong about that?
Well I kinda already said that, you can't just call somebody you're controlling an asshole when you're the one who makes her act like an asshole
I meant that only her callousness is vaguely dependent on the player's choice. The other traits are perfectly evident in her default dialogue and behavior, which on an unrelated note kinda forces people who care about character consistency to pick dialogue options in line with that. That's another problem I have with her.
He gets nothing (if it's not for commdey effect) because most of the times when he's around Vasquez he punches him anyway.… [view original content]
Like I said before, having written an MA thesis on the unequal treatment of women in video games, I'm well aware of the underlying issues causing gamers to favor male player characters. However, in TFTB, I do feel like the girls (and I'm not going to say Fiona, because it's definitely both Fiona and Sasha) are given more leeway than the boys. And my main method to check whether this is in fact true, is the 'what if the situation was reversed' test...
Present day Fiona and Rhys hate each other - if it was Fiona drooling on Rhys, would I be comfortable with Rhys spitting on her and punching her, just because he felt like letting off some steam? Probably not.
Rhys and Vaughn decide to push the girls out of the moving vehicle to their death - still funny with the roles reversed? Well, it would be to me, but I'm a sociopath. For the majority of viewers it would probably be a moral event horizon for the boys.
Sasha: We made up the fake vault key deal to get out of this shithole of a town we live in, we were just trying to get ahead. Rhys (pointing a gun at her): Idgaf, you bandit, get moving. Hahaha.
Fiona: Gaah! This psycho is trying to kill me! Vaughn: Lol, I don't need you to retrieve the money, so whatevs... Hahaha.
Rhys: So, the girls got stranded in the desert... do you think they'll survive? Vaughn: Nope. Rhys: Yeah, whatever. Haha... you get the gist.
Etc., etc....
Wow, those guys are serious doucheba... wait a minute...
I love badass female characters. I love renagade femshep. You know why? Cause she's exactly the same as renegade maleshep. There are no double standards there (there are in the rest of the game like whoa, but that's not the point here). I love a dickish female Warden in DA:O, and a murderous female Fallout protagonist. But that's because they can act the same as their male counterparts, and they get the same responses from npcs, be those grovelling or bullets to the face.
I also want to note that I don't have a problem with those things happening, I jut have a problem with them not being acknowledged.
Yes, well, and yet no one bats an eye.
Like I said, that's because both Rhys and Vasquez are humiliated, beaten up and punished for … moreexisting all the time. Bad karma or whatever. But for some reason Fiona never is, and so the story is unfairly and unjustifiably favoring her. Cue a hate-thread here and there. What's so wrong about that?
Well I kinda already said that, you can't just call somebody you're controlling an asshole when you're the one who makes her act like an asshole
I meant that only her callousness is vaguely dependent on the player's choice. The other traits are perfectly evident in her default dialogue and behavior, which on an unrelated note kinda forces people who care about character consistency to pick dialogue options in line with that. That's another problem I have with her.
He gets nothing (if it's not for commdey effect) because most of the times when he's around Vasquez he punches him anyway.… [view original content]
Now that is just ridiculous. It's not some instant karma, it's just Rhys being clumsy for no real reason but a comedy effect + showing us how to get Jack out of his head for a moment. Someone's reading into what supposed to be funny way too much (and I'm not saying that you should find it funny or Vasquez's violence funny, but it sure won't hurt taking it all more lightly as it's not some GOT or TWD).
I'm not offended at the violence, it's just that most people have a little bit more sympathy for an ass who gets the crap kicked out of him constantly for little reason than they do for a bitch who doesn't. Thus, no Rhys hate-threads. If Fiona was brutally beaten half to death every other scene for shits and giggles and Rhys wasn't, it'd be the other way around. Except a number of players would cry misogyny and the game's popularity would take a blow. It's a wonderful world we live in.
He does that to Vallory in the end of ep3 and gets punched in the guts - "I dunno what I'm supposed to be more scared of — the oversized piece of crap that belches fire, or the rocket launcher she's holding". He can throw some insults at Jack (not that much, but still):
Ah, but all the instances you mention of Rhys insulting people are examples where he only does so if you tell him to. I haven't seen any of the dialogue you're talking about because I didn't pick those options. And no, in the beginning of episode 1 and in every "present-day" scene thereafter it's almost exclusively Fiona throwing feces at Rhys without provocation, no player choice involved.
What? Have you ever fallen on top of a computer from a height of several meters, landing on your back? There are people driving around wheel… morechairs right this minute, counting themselves damn lucky that they survived a fall like that
Now that is just ridiculous. It's not some instant karma, it's just Rhys being clumsy for no real reason but a comedy effect + showing us how to get Jack out of his head for a moment. Someone's reading into what supposed to be funny way too much (and I'm not saying that you should find it funny or Vasquez's violence funny, but it sure won't hurt taking it all more lightly as it's not some GOT or TWD).
Rhys doesn't "just go and insult people". I can't remember a single instance where he does that without that person insulting him first.
He does that to Vallory in the end of ep3 and gets punched in the guts - "I dunno what I'm supposed to be more scared of — the oversized piece of crap that bel… [view original content]
You're right that both girls get in on the action here. I just have a harder time blaming Sasha because she has a bit more 'sociopathic wasteland survivor' going for her than Fiona does, making her behavior seem more appropriate to her environment than Fiona's, who is presented as the more rational and level-headed of the two but still goes out of her way to kick Rhys when he's down.
Like I said before, having written an MA thesis on the unequal treatment of women in video games, I'm well aware of the underlying issues ca… moreusing gamers to favor male player characters. However, in TFTB, I do feel like the girls (and I'm not going to say Fiona, because it's definitely both Fiona and Sasha) are given more leeway than the boys. And my main method to check whether this is in fact true, is the 'what if the situation was reversed' test...
* Present day Fiona and Rhys hate each other - if it was Fiona drooling on Rhys, would I be comfortable with Rhys spitting on her and punching her, just because he felt like letting off some steam? Probably not.
* Rhys and Vaughn decide to push the girls out of the moving vehicle to their death - still funny with the roles reversed? Well, it would be to me, but I'm a sociopath. For the majority of viewers it would probably be a moral event horizon for the boys.
* Sasha: We made up the… [view original content]
Better, how about we just stop torturing characters and pucnhung them just for the lulz of it? Because it's not really that funny. The first time Rhys got punched in my game it was just because I decided to stay silent in hope that this way Vasquez won't do anything cause he already demoted Rhys. Well, maybe that one time it wasn't even supposed to be funny but I don't think we need that kind of unnecessary violence at all. Hitting yourself - yeah, why not, kinda funny. Being punched like that - not so much. Doesn't matter if you "deserved" it or not.
And no, in the beginning of episode 1 and in every "present-day" scene thereafter it's almost exclusively Fiona throwing feces at Rhys without provocation, no player choice involved.
Which as we already kinda (kinda) agreed on is still up in the air as we don't have a single clue what the hell happened and why they act like they do. So beside that one you also have no examples of her oh so rude behavior. That's not to mention it all can change as they'll finish their story once they know why the other did what he/she did (cause it's already happening if you decided not to trust Jack for instance).
Now that is just ridiculous. It's not some instant karma, it's just Rhys being clumsy for no real reason but a comedy effect + showing us ho… morew to get Jack out of his head for a moment. Someone's reading into what supposed to be funny way too much (and I'm not saying that you should find it funny or Vasquez's violence funny, but it sure won't hurt taking it all more lightly as it's not some GOT or TWD).
I'm not offended at the violence, it's just that most people have a little bit more sympathy for an ass who gets the crap kicked out of him constantly for little reason than they do for a bitch who doesn't. Thus, no Rhys hate-threads. If Fiona was brutally beaten half to death every other scene for shits and giggles and Rhys wasn't, it'd be the other way around. Except a number of players would cry misogyny and the game's popularity would take a blow. It's a wonderful world we live in.
He does that to Vallory in the end of ep3 and … [view original content]
Better, how about we just stop torturing characters and pucnhung them just for the lulz of it? Because it's not really that funny. The first time Rhys got punched in my game it was just because I decided to stay silent in hope that this way Vasquez won't do anything cause he already demoted Rhys. Well, maybe that one time it wasn't even supposed to be funny but I don't think we need that kind of unnecessary violence at all. Hitting yourself - yeah, why not, kinda funny. Being punched like that - not so much. Doesn't matter if you "deserved" it or not.
You're missing the point. Again, I'm not offended at the violence, but a character that consistently takes a beating for no reason generates some sympathy, ass or not. Fiona has no such balance for her even worse behavior, and so it makes sense for people to dislike her where Rhys is slightly harder to blame. Thus, no hate-Rhys threads.
Which as we already kinda (kinda) agreed on is still up in the air as we don't have a single clue what the hell happened and why they act like they do. So beside that one you also have no examples of her oh so rude behavior. That's not to mention it all can change as they'll finish their story once they know why the other did what he/she did (cause it's already happening if you decided not to trust Jack for instance).
We don't actually know that anything specific will happen to that effect, and that the animosity we see now isn't just the result of them having spent longer in each other's company. We've yet to see anything justify Fiona's abuse of Rhys and general heartlessness towards the guys, and so it isn't excusable. If something happens then we'll adjust our opinions, obviously, but Fiona's just doesn't look very good right now.
Better, how about we just stop torturing characters and pucnhung them just for the lulz of it? Because it's not really that funny. The first… more time Rhys got punched in my game it was just because I decided to stay silent in hope that this way Vasquez won't do anything cause he already demoted Rhys. Well, maybe that one time it wasn't even supposed to be funny but I don't think we need that kind of unnecessary violence at all. Hitting yourself - yeah, why not, kinda funny. Being punched like that - not so much. Doesn't matter if you "deserved" it or not.
And no, in the beginning of episode 1 and in every "present-day" scene thereafter it's almost exclusively Fiona throwing feces at Rhys without provocation, no player choice involved.
Which as we already kinda (kinda) agreed on is still up in the air as we don't have a single clue what the hell happened and why they act like they do. So beside that one you also have no examples of h… [view original content]
Well, I'd disagree with that, because the way I see it, Sasha isn't presented as 'sociopathic' at all, even though she is... she is in fact presented as the 'emotional' member of the team, the 'heart' to Fiona's 'mind', i.e. the one favoring feeling over reason... and what she's 'feeling' kinda sucks to me.
Mind you, I have a particular hatred for people who ignore reasonable arguments because they 'feel too strongly about the issue to consider them', which I feel is exactly what Sasha's character is doing, so she really rubs me the wrong way.
You're right that both girls get in on the action here. I just have a harder time blaming Sasha because she has a bit more 'sociopathic wast… moreeland survivor' going for her than Fiona does, making her behavior seem more appropriate to her environment than Fiona's, who is presented as the more rational and level-headed of the two but still goes out of her way to kick Rhys when he's down.
True, but with ten million dollars on the line, a gun in my hand and my own survival on a Fallout-esque planet populated three quarters by psychopaths to see too, I'd be happy to ignore all kinds of reasonable arguments too.
When the money are no longer within reach and Hyperion apparently tries to kill Rhys and Vaugh, Sasha seems to loose most of her hostility. Fiona doesn't.
Well, I'd disagree with that, because the way I see it, Sasha isn't presented as 'sociopathic' at all, even though she is... she is in fact … morepresented as the 'emotional' member of the team, the 'heart' to Fiona's 'mind', i.e. the one favoring feeling over reason... and what she's 'feeling' kinda sucks to me.
Mind you, I have a particular hatred for people who ignore reasonable arguments because they 'feel too strongly about the issue to consider them', which I feel is exactly what Sasha's character is doing, so she really rubs me the wrong way.
True, but with ten million dollars on the line, a gun in my hand and my own survival on a Fallout-esque planet populated three quarters by p… moresychopaths to see too, I'd be happy to ignore all kinds of reasonable arguments too.
When the money are no longer within reach and Hyperion apparently tries to kill Rhys and Vaugh, Sasha seems to loose most of her hostility. Fiona doesn't.
Please show me ALL examples minus the present day segments AND the segments where it's your choice in what kind of response she'll give to any character.
Agreed, Sasha's attitude evolves, at least in ep.3, but during the 'past' parts of the game Fiona isn't so much 'hostile' as she is 'distant'. She makes flippant remarks, and she just doesn't seem to care all that much... which, admittedly, makes it harder to empathize and identify with her. But she develops in ep.3 as well (her returning Rhys' shoe, if it happens, is pretty companionable, to name one example).
Still, one key point of the story (the Borderlands story in general, actually) seems to be that not all the people on Pandora are psychos and bandits - there are also normal people who are just trying to live their lives, like Fiona and Sasha... but Sasha isn't really making a good case for herself... (I mean, I act like that in Fallout, and let's just say my karma levels aren't exactly soaring :P).
True, but with ten million dollars on the line, a gun in my hand and my own survival on a Fallout-esque planet populated three quarters by p… moresychopaths to see too, I'd be happy to ignore all kinds of reasonable arguments too.
When the money are no longer within reach and Hyperion apparently tries to kill Rhys and Vaugh, Sasha seems to loose most of her hostility. Fiona doesn't.
I think I'll pretend you didn't just ask me to do such a huge amount of work just to convince you. Replay the episodes yourself and pay attention to all the times she snipes at him out of nowhere. RatPack is right that she's mostly distant and flippant in the later memory sequences, excepting the shoe thing which I had totally forgotten about, but I see no problem in using her present-day behavior to characterize her too.
Please show me ALL examples minus the present day segments AND the segments where it's your choice in what kind of response she'll give to any character.
No, there is a problem when someone automatically jumps on the "hate" bandwagon when we're treated to a scene where two characters hate each other and there's clear indication as there's more to the story in how they came to hate each other. How do I know I should feel sorry for Rhys for getting abused by Fiona, he might have actually deserved every bit of abuse she gave him and those scenes are just there to remind us that they have a rivalry. Again, we don't know, the only thing that matters are the flashbacks.
Yes, convince me, otherwise your reasons look petty and narrow minded and seemingly taken out of context.
I think I'll pretend you didn't just ask me to do such a huge amount of work just to convince you. Replay the episodes yourself and pay atte… morention to all the times she snipes at him out of nowhere. RatPack is right that she's mostly distant and flippant in the later memory sequences, excepting the shoe thing which I had totally forgotten about, but I see no problem in using her present-day behavior to characterize her too.
It seemed to me that Sasha quickly grew comfortable with the guys from the ending of the first episode and then onwards. She doesn't say much of anything against them when they're all in the chamber under Bossanova's arena, she at least seems torn between helping Rhys and helping Fiona when both are beset by bat-thingies during the escape in Atlas Mugged, and when Rhys is speeding between the legs of the Rakk Hive she has her hand on his shoulder, grinning wildly. And when they're all separated, she's the one to raise the question of whether the boys will be okay on their own.
All in all, I don't think her early snipes were personal at all. But that's just me.
Agreed, Sasha's attitude evolves, at least in ep.3, but during the 'past' parts of the game Fiona isn't so much 'hostile' as she is 'distant… more'. She makes flippant remarks, and she just doesn't seem to care all that much... which, admittedly, makes it harder to empathize and identify with her. But she develops in ep.3 as well (her returning Rhys' shoe, if it happens, is pretty companionable, to name one example).
Still, one key point of the story (the Borderlands story in general, actually) seems to be that not all the people on Pandora are psychos and bandits - there are also normal people who are just trying to live their lives, like Fiona and Sasha... but Sasha isn't really making a good case for herself... (I mean, I act like that in Fallout, and let's just say my karma levels aren't exactly soaring :P).
Ok, It's past 2 am here, I'm going to bed now.
Oh, I don't really think they hate each other. Rhys at least is almost polite to her in the present day sequences. I think she has a big problem with him, and I think she's being an absolute bitch about it. She doesn't state her feelings or accuse him directly or ask what the hell he was thinking when he did x or y that she has such a problem with, she just insults, belittles and beats on him with no restraint or comeuppance from the story, and he takes it all mostly lying down, rarely defending himself or striking back. She does this even after it becomes perfectly clear that he's willing to talk about everything that happened and explain his reasoning, and she does it even when his reasoning makes perfect sense.
Yes, it would ruin the chronology of the flashbacks if they got into whatever her problem is before the retelling caught up to that point, but it's still a mark against her that she doesn't just cut the crap and deal with her issue instead of venting passive-aggressively at him like a child, and nobody calls her on it. And again, she and her family dangled him out of a speeding car without apology, she blatantly ignored Vaughn being in danger throughout the race and none of her dialogue options express any regret at leaving the two of them stranded in the middle of the desert.
And again again, if the roles were reversed and Rhys was the one beating on Fiona just because he felt like it we'd all hate him for that, no matter what the ultimate reasoning was. But no, Fiona is a woman so it's a-okay with the majority if she wants to deal out corporeal punishment.
No, there is a problem when someone automatically jumps on the "hate" bandwagon when we're treated to a scene where two characters hate each… more other and there's clear indication as there's more to the story in how they came to hate each other. How do I know I should feel sorry for Rhys for getting abused by Fiona, he might have actually deserved every bit of abuse she gave him and those scenes are just there to remind us that they have a rivalry. Again, we don't know, the only thing that matters are the flashbacks.
Yes, convince me, otherwise your reasons look petty and narrow minded and seemingly taken out of context.
Uh... No... Fiona is my personal favorite in the game.. I think she is perfectly capable and well written character. Sasha is pretty annoying in my opinion, but I can't think of any reason why would someone dislike Sasha, Fiona or even Rhys for their flaws. This game is pretty fun and I would rather save dislikes for the characters who actually deserve it.
And again, she and her family dangled him out of a speeding car without apology, she blatantly ignored Vaughn being in danger throughout the race and none of her dialogue options express any regret at leaving the two of them stranded in the middle of the desert.
Really? You're using those examples to say on how much of a bitch Fiona is?
Rhys and Vaughn TRIED TO STEAL FIONA AND SASHA'S ONLY DAMN WAY TO ESCAPE FROM AUGUST and they're HYPERION and Hyperion folks are nothing but degenerates to them due to what Hyperions did to Pandora!
How exactly did Fiona ignore Vaughn being in danger when there's an option to tell Vaughn to get down from the large crane AND an option TO SAVE VAUGHN FROM GETTING KILLED BY A BANDIT.
It wasn't even Fiona's fault for leaving Vaughn and Rhys out in the desert, she actually tries to SAVE BOTH RHYS AND VAUGHN from hurling out of the caravan for god's sake, was exactly is Fiona guilty of here?
As for Fiona's character in the present day segments, again, something happened between the two of them that made them not care for each other and her lashing out at Rhys is more or less probably justified but we don't know yet. Rhys is not much of a puppy dog like you're making him out to be, he's just telling his side of the story and arguing with Fiona and there's even a scene where he was being smug about drooling on Fiona and he even insults her and makes fun of her in the present day segments.
If Rhys was beating Fiona, it would be a little shocking, but I wouldn't suddenly go ahead and call Rhys a shit bag because I don't know the full story yet of how they're at each other's throats.
Rhys and Fiona are not meant to be nice or compassionate characters. They're written to be jerk bags with some redeeming qualities considering I think it was mentioned at the beginning of episode 1 that Rhys has killed many people, has betrayed some allies, and wants to be JUST LIKE Handsome Jack, so Rhys is not meant to be a nice person neither is Fiona.
Oh, I don't really think they hate each other. Rhys at least is almost polite to her in the present day sequences. I think she has a big pro… moreblem with him, and I think she's being an absolute bitch about it. She doesn't state her feelings or accuse him directly or ask what the hell he was thinking when he did x or y that she has such a problem with, she just insults, belittles and beats on him with no restraint or comeuppance from the story, and he takes it all mostly lying down, rarely defending himself or striking back. She does this even after it becomes perfectly clear that he's willing to talk about everything that happened and explain his reasoning, and she does it even when his reasoning makes perfect sense.
Yes, it would ruin the chronology of the flashbacks if they got into whatever her problem is before the retelling caught up to that point, but it's still a mark against her that she doesn't just cut the crap and deal with her iss… [view original content]
Rhys and Vaughn tried to escape in the only car available after Sasha, August and Fiona first screwed them over and then started shooting at each other. Fiona and Sasha were in no position to blame them for it, to be honest, and they could have just kicked them off at the nearest outpost, or even just stopped the car for a moment and thrown them out. But of course not, they instead tried to throw the boys out of the open door while speeding through the desert. To save the bullets, according to Fiona herself. How is that not a bitch move?
You're right about her and Vaughn, I didn't notice the option for her to attack the axe guy on any of my playthroughs.
It wasn't her fault that they were thrown out of the car, obviously, but when Sasha raises the subject of them probably not being able to survive alone, every dialogue option basically amounts to "meh", and the idea of turning the car around doesn't even register.
And again, no matter what happened prior to the present day sequences Fiona is handling it like a child and a bully, and Rhys is mostly just defending himself and not even that hard. The moment where he's smug about accidentally drooling on her is immediately followed by her spitting on him, and then punching him in the neck just because she feels like it while someone else basically holds him at gunpoint. Yeah, totally justified.
You're saying that if Rhys was beating Fiona, spitting on her, kicking sand in her face and calling her an idiot at every opportunity regardless of what she said, completely unprovoked, you wouldn't think he was a shitbag? Personally, I doubt the game would ever have gotten a green light featuring that. The aggression in those scenes is almost completely one-sided, Rhys defending himself a little bit now and then doesn't exactly balance it out.
Uhm, no, Rhys probably never killed anyone before that fight with the bandits in the first episode. For one thing, he's horrified by Vasquez killing his boss. For another, Vaughn sarcastically mutters "Yeah, just helped you kill a guy. No big deal there." after helping Fiona take care of a psycho midget, implying that murder wasn't one of the horrible things he and Rhys did to get their hands on that promotion. For a third, seeing Rhys' feeble attempt at strangulation, bodily violence and homicidal tendencies obviously isn't one of the ways in which he tries to emulate Handsome Jack.
I'd have no trouble believing that Fiona has killed before, though. It's hard to make a dishonest living on Pandora without hurting anyone, there is that bounty on her, and when Scooter comes back to chat after talking with the bounty hunters he seems pretty sure that she's a murderer...
And again, she and her family dangled him out of a speeding car without apology, she blatantly ignored Vaughn being in danger throughout the… more race and none of her dialogue options express any regret at leaving the two of them stranded in the middle of the desert.
Really? You're using those examples to say on how much of a bitch Fiona is?
Rhys and Vaughn TRIED TO STEAL FIONA AND SASHA'S ONLY DAMN WAY TO ESCAPE FROM AUGUST and they're HYPERION and Hyperion folks are nothing but degenerates to them due to what Hyperions did to Pandora!
How exactly did Fiona ignore Vaughn being in danger when there's an option to tell Vaughn to get down from the large crane AND an option TO SAVE VAUGHN FROM GETTING KILLED BY A BANDIT.
It wasn't even Fiona's fault for leaving Vaughn and Rhys out in the desert, she actually tries to SAVE BOTH RHYS AND VAUGHN from hurling out of the caravan for god's sake, was exactly is Fiona guilty of here?
As f… [view original content]
It's hard to write a good strong and relate-able female character, because the real taboo seems to be the ability to be fallible, or dumb, or misguided. Rhys can be a total jerk, but he also had moments of kicking over the garbage can, and having his name called to clean it up. His bragging about knowing how to get into the Hyperion systems resulted in a near stroke and him passed out on the floor. He couldn't strangle a guard, he is afraid of heights, He got his sock covered foot stuck in the lid of a dumpster, he is human. Fiona lacks those moments and it makes her flaws and confident strutting more insufferable instead of admirable. There is so much pressure in making the new strong woman archetype that they forget to add the flaws that would keep them from being Mary Sues.
Like I said before, having written an MA thesis on the unequal treatment of women in video games, I'm well aware of the underlying issues ca… moreusing gamers to favor male player characters. However, in TFTB, I do feel like the girls (and I'm not going to say Fiona, because it's definitely both Fiona and Sasha) are given more leeway than the boys. And my main method to check whether this is in fact true, is the 'what if the situation was reversed' test...
* Present day Fiona and Rhys hate each other - if it was Fiona drooling on Rhys, would I be comfortable with Rhys spitting on her and punching her, just because he felt like letting off some steam? Probably not.
* Rhys and Vaughn decide to push the girls out of the moving vehicle to their death - still funny with the roles reversed? Well, it would be to me, but I'm a sociopath. For the majority of viewers it would probably be a moral event horizon for the boys.
* Sasha: We made up the… [view original content]
Uhm, no, Rhys probably never killed anyone before that fight with the bandits in the first episode.
Vaughn says that things they've both done will haunt him in his dreams (we don't know if he directly killed someone like Jack did in his time, but the fact is still here because Vaughn is freaking out about that) + as we all know by now, eridium is quite poisonous so by sending people to work in eridium mines you're killing them or at the very least crippling them (again, Vaughn's commentary - "those people need to work somewhere, right?" - basically, they both don't really care about them that much). There also was an unused audio where Rhys is looking in the mirror and says something like "pff, and people said I won't be able to look at myself after all I've done".
Whatever he did it was not something petty. It was more or less serious, just not staright up bloody nightmare like what Jack did.
I'd have no trouble believing that Fiona has killed before
Kind of a baseless accusation. And that's right after she says that she doesn't like guns (even petty ones like Felix gave her) and she prefers talking over shooting as her "one talent is talking to people until they get confused".
It wasn't her fault that they were thrown out of the car, obviously, but when Sasha raises the subject of them probably not being able to survive alone, every dialogue option basically amounts to "meh", and the idea of turning the car around doesn't even register.
You're on it again, aren't you? There are 4 options as always - 1 They'll be fine. 2.They have a chance 3.They won't last a night 4.Silence. How the f two options like positive "they're fine" and neutral "they have a chance" (where she says that if they're smart they have a chance because all they have to do is to find a shelter and build a fire) turned into meh? Like seriously, she's not their mother or anything. The assumption that they could've just turned the car is unrealistic as hell as well, this freaking car had only 1 wheel and barely made it to Hollow point.
Rhys and Vaughn tried to escape in the only car available after Sasha, August and Fiona first screwed them over and then started shooting at… more each other. Fiona and Sasha were in no position to blame them for it, to be honest, and they could have just kicked them off at the nearest outpost, or even just stopped the car for a moment and thrown them out. But of course not, they instead tried to throw the boys out of the open door while speeding through the desert. To save the bullets, according to Fiona herself. How is that not a bitch move?
You're right about her and Vaughn, I didn't notice the option for her to attack the axe guy on any of my playthroughs.
It wasn't her fault that they were thrown out of the car, obviously, but when Sasha raises the subject of them probably not being able to survive alone, every dialogue option basically amounts to "meh", and the idea of turning the car around doesn't even register.
And again, no matte… [view original content]
On my part, I'm not trying to argue that Rhys and Vaughn are innocent cinnamon rolls or anything, or that Fiona and Sasha are worse people than they are. What bothers me is just the way their more morally questionable actions are presented within the story - the way Rhys is always somehow called out on his douchebaggery, but the girls aren't.
I'm probably a broken record by now, but once again - the girls have actively tried to kill Rhys and Vaughn, (and later pretty much abandoned them to certain death in the desert and didn't care much about it), yet it's all treated as a joke, despite being quite a serious moral event horizon if you think about it. It just grates on me that 'trying to steal a car' is apparently a pretty bad deed, but 'trying to kill two non-hostile, defenseless men' is a funny gag. Again - it's not the actions themselves that I have a problem with, just how they're framed in the story.
Uhm, no, Rhys probably never killed anyone before that fight with the bandits in the first episode.
Vaughn says that things they've … moreboth done will haunt him in his dreams (we don't know if he directly killed someone like Jack did in his time, but the fact is still here because Vaughn is freaking out about that) + as we all know by now, eridium is quite poisonous so by sending people to work in eridium mines you're killing them or at the very least crippling them (again, Vaughn's commentary - "those people need to work somewhere, right?" - basically, they both don't really care about them that much). There also was an unused audio where Rhys is looking in the mirror and says something like "pff, and people said I won't be able to look at myself after all I've done".
Whatever he did it was not something petty. It was more or less serious, just not staright up bloody nightmare like what Jack did.
I'd have no trouble believing th… [view original content]
Well, I think it's the side of the same coin. I mean, when you think that you can punch and abuse boys just for a comedy effect but you can't do the same with girls - it's what happens in reality, those double standards. I think we didn't have that in original BL because we either had verbal jokes or lethal jokes (like shooting someone in the face and all that) and it was fine with everyone because it clearly wasn't real. But now we're getting mixed messages - 1 that punching someone is fine and fun 2 but only fine as long as they "deserve" it and/or it happen to male characters - bringing some "realism" into unrealistic settings. I hope I'm making sense cause I don't know how to put it properly.
On my part, I'm not trying to argue that Rhys and Vaughn are innocent cinnamon rolls or anything, or that Fiona and Sasha are worse people t… morehan they are. What bothers me is just the way their more morally questionable actions are presented within the story - the way Rhys is always somehow called out on his douchebaggery, but the girls aren't.
I'm probably a broken record by now, but once again - the girls have actively tried to kill Rhys and Vaughn, (and later pretty much abandoned them to certain death in the desert and didn't care much about it), yet it's all treated as a joke, despite being quite a serious moral event horizon if you think about it. It just grates on me that 'trying to steal a car' is apparently a pretty bad deed, but 'trying to kill two non-hostile, defenseless men' is a funny gag. Again - it's not the actions themselves that I have a problem with, just how they're framed in the story.
Yea, I think I get what you're saying, and it's probably true, but the side effect of that 'realism' is that the girls become unlikable to a lot of players, as evidenced by this thread.
I'd personally prefer for all characters to be measured by the same yardstick.
Well, I think it's the side of the same coin. I mean, when you think that you can punch and abuse boys just for a comedy effect but you can'… moret do the same with girls - it's what happens in reality, those double standards. I think we didn't have that in original BL because we either had verbal jokes or lethal jokes (like shooting someone in the face and all that) and it was fine with everyone because it clearly wasn't real. But now we're getting mixed messages - 1 that punching someone is fine and fun 2 but only fine as long as they "deserve" it and/or it happen to male characters - bringing some "realism" into unrealistic settings. I hope I'm making sense cause I don't know how to put it properly.
Yea, I think I get what you're saying, and it's probably true, but the side effect of that 'realism' is that the girls become unlikable to a… more lot of players, as evidenced by this thread.
I'd personally prefer for all characters to be measured by the same yardstick.
That's funny. I've seen so many people saying how much they hate Fiona because she's mean, harsh, flippant or doesn't seem to care about anything. And now you're saying you hate her because she's overly compassionate. Translation: She's the main female character so it doesn't matter what she does or how she's portrayed, people are going to hate her.
Like I said before, Fiona AND Rhys are not meant to be nice or compassionate characters like you want them to be so don't expect Fiona and Sasha to act like Rhy's and Vaughn's parents or anything, that's just stupid thinking. If I don't have the context yet as to why Rhys would abuse Fiona especially since there IS context that I haven't seen yet then I'm not going jump on the "Let's all hate Rhys because he punched a woman even if this woman might have deserved it" bandwagon.
You also seem to be ignoring the fact that Hyperions are not well liked on Pandora, since like Sasha says, Hyperion made hell for so many Pandorans, so why should Fiona and Sasha give two sleazy Hyperion workers a chance since there is always a possibility that Rhys and Vaughn will end up killing the both of them first?
I should probably mention that if Fiona kicks the pshyco instead Vaughn will then grab the psycho and drag him off into the road and not SAY ANYTHING, of course that's optional.
I feel you're grossly over exaggerating Fiona's and Rhy's behavior in the present day segments and applying an already established opinion even though no one has any context to why they both dislike each other.
Your reasons are still petty and you're still taking everything out of context.
Rhys and Vaughn tried to escape in the only car available after Sasha, August and Fiona first screwed them over and then started shooting at… more each other. Fiona and Sasha were in no position to blame them for it, to be honest, and they could have just kicked them off at the nearest outpost, or even just stopped the car for a moment and thrown them out. But of course not, they instead tried to throw the boys out of the open door while speeding through the desert. To save the bullets, according to Fiona herself. How is that not a bitch move?
You're right about her and Vaughn, I didn't notice the option for her to attack the axe guy on any of my playthroughs.
It wasn't her fault that they were thrown out of the car, obviously, but when Sasha raises the subject of them probably not being able to survive alone, every dialogue option basically amounts to "meh", and the idea of turning the car around doesn't even register.
And again, no matte… [view original content]
Mad Moxxi's clothes make a modicum of sense for an entertainer and bar hostess, Fiona's weirdo corporate cowgirl outfit doesn't for a thief … moreand con artist. Not unless trying to sell "vault keys" under the guise of renegade archeologists is all she's ever done. And I'm really pretty sure that Sasha is a sociopath. Along with most of Pandora's population.
Comments
Your example of that could've been excellent... if only there was someone who called any male character from TftB an asshole solely because of the way he acts while defending a female character who possesses the exact same traits. But so far we have 2 threads about people not liking Fiona and no one else.
EVERY character in the game is pretty damn great, no matter if I hate them or not.
I've always said that the Borderlands series is particularly good at characterization. Telltale has delivered very well.
You are seeing this from a myopic view. Plenty of people have had Rhys in their cross hairs and a lot of people don't like his character. However, not liking him or liking Jack has never been turned into a bigger issue and no one has implied misandry for not liking him.
Fiona has become an issue because you created it by making accusation against people you don't even know, and making assumptions about their motivations instead of accepting that people can have earnest and differing opinions that you and not be bad people because of it. That is my final thought on the subject.
I really want at least a single example of someone who dislikes Rhys at least half as much. And example from this forum since we've only been discussing it's audience. Cause I haven't seen even a single person saying that they dislike Rhys. Moreover, thought obviously not everyone were psyched about Vasquez, Vaughn August or Jack, no one felt the need to dedicate a whole thread to discuss how much they suck. But this is the second thread about Fiona. So you might check your facts first next time.
I was talking with TheRatPack55 and made it clear that no one has to agree with anything I said there. The same goes for OP's views about Fiona. Clearly some people will share them, but majority won't.
Wasn't really fond of Fiona until episode three when she got some actual time in the spotlight and character development. But not really for the reasons you described, but I'm sure there are a lot of people in these forums who dislike Fiona as there are probably some who dislike Rhys as well.
As I say, each to their own, but I definitely feel where you're coming from in the sense of disliking her.
She can annoy me sometimes, but I still like her.
But I love Rhys.
Um, did anyone tell you you couldn't put up a thread asking who hates Rhys? Why are you condemning people for something you aren't willing to do yourself? It's no ones responsibility to make you feel good or that they are being equal. Don't like it, you can change it. All you are doing is attacking people on a personal level because you don't like something and put your own notions of motive on them.
Well, Vasquez is an asshole because he's rude and arrogant and selfish, obviously. Rhys is too, in a less vocal manner depending on how you play him, and neither can get away with anything without being treated like a bit of an ass by the characters around them and the audience.
Fiona, on the other hand, is condescending as hell, greedy, abusive, callous depending on how you play her(I've replayed the first three episodes and definitely changed my mind about her "compassion"), and pretentious, and nobody ever calls her on it except for Rhys weakly muttering "you're a horrible person..." or something like that one of the many, many times she puts him down or beats on him without the slightest provocation. Were she a real human being, few would hesitate to call her a bitch.
I don't see what "while defending a female character" has to do with anything. Rhys gets all the punishment he deserves for being an asshole in-game, Fiona doesn't. I don't see how a few hate-threads are unfair in that situation, and it has nothing to do with gender issues except perhaps for the values dissonance that inexplicably makes Fiona's behavior out to be excusable.
Maybe cause I don't hate or dislike Rhys (I can't even say I dislike Vasquez because despite everything he's done I don't really feel much for him) so it makes zero sense for me to make one.
If you're feel "attacked", you can just stop reading. I made it clear that I don't expect you or anyone to agree and that's not to mention I wasn't even talking about you or even OP specifically.
Yes, well, and yet no one bats an eye.
Well I kinda already said that, you can't just call somebody you're controlling an asshole when you're the one who makes her act like an asshole. It's like saying that Rhys is an asshole because you make him betray Vaughn or trust Jack and shoot at Vasquez (or August) - and since we know that they've been friends with Vaughn for a long time he doesn't even has a reason to do it. The same goes to Jack. We have plenty of options in those situations, you just decided to bring the worts in character.
He gets nothing (if it's not for commdey effect) because most of the times when he's around Vasquez he punches him anyway. So he gets majority of it from Vasquez and a little from Vallory after he insults her. As Fiona doesn't have an unstable boss and don't just go and insult people she meets there's no real reason to punch her. But as you put it she got what she deserved in the end of ep3 and ep1 when August was trying to kill her (all of them I mean, including Sasha and Felix) in ep1 so.
Like I said, that's because both Rhys and Vasquez are humiliated, beaten up and punished for existing all the time. Bad karma or whatever. But for some reason Fiona never is, and so the story is unfairly and unjustifiably favoring her. Cue a hate-thread here and there. What's so wrong about that?
I meant that only her callousness is vaguely dependent on the player's choice. The other traits are perfectly evident in her default dialogue and behavior, which on an unrelated note kinda forces people who care about character consistency to pick dialogue options in line with that. That's another problem I have with her.
What? Have you ever fallen on top of a computer from a height of several meters, landing on your back? The sweetest girl I know is in a wheelchair counting herself damn lucky that she survived a fall like that, never mind the chronic pain. Have you ever been dangled out of and subsequently thrown off two speeding vehicles in the span of a week? Have you ever had someone punch you in the neck because they felt like it? Ever been headbutted, however amateurishly, not to mention countless other instances of minor head trauma? Ever received an elbow to your gut with the weight of a three-foot shotgun behind it, again because someone just felt like it? It's not even close to funny to imagine any of this happening to a real person.
To compare, Fiona has accidentally stumbled into a motorcycle, been dangled a bit upside-down, taken a minor fall and received one admittedly very hard punch to the face. And she's supposed to be more action-y than Rhys. It just doesn't measure up, not even remotely.
Not to mention a lifetime of theft and betrayal compared to years and years of hard legitimate work, for Hyperion or not. Going by default dialogue and background alone, I don't see why she deserves better treatment than he does. Rhys doesn't "just go and insult people". I can't remember a single instance where he does that without that person insulting him first. I can remember several where Fiona does. Namely towards Rhys. Namely outside the player's control.
Now that is just ridiculous. It's not some instant karma, it's just Rhys being clumsy for no real reason but a comedy effect + showing us how to get Jack out of his head for a moment. Someone's reading into what supposed to be funny way too much (and I'm not saying that you should find it funny or Vasquez's violence funny, but it sure won't hurt taking it all more lightly as it's not some GOT or TWD).
He does that to Vallory in the end of ep3 and gets punched in the guts - "I dunno what I'm supposed to be more scared of — the oversized piece of crap that belches fire, or the rocket launcher she's holding". He can throw some insults at Jack (not that much, but still):
He can call Rudiger a Greasy face and shit will go down even faster if he does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5niBjXNZfw
It's all about choices. You can even avoid most of Vasquez's attacks if you won't provoke him more than the game requires (for the plot reasons). And in ep2 Vasquez wasn't really insulting Rhys at the moment, on the contrary, he was quite friendly(ish) but you have an option to call him a Wallethead or say rude things about his hair implants.
Plus, that's not about people but talking about "condescending" - Rhys can say 4 to 5 times how much he detests Pandora (in episode 1 on the platform with zer0,2 times near/in Atlas facility and 1-2 times in ep 3 in dialogues with Sasha) and assume that all Pandorans are alike (which results in Sasha either calling him out on it or just telling him she doesn't like it).
So nah, you didn't really proved it. But there's actually no need for justfications as long as it's your subjective feelings.
I can't remember any that we can't control excluding the beginning of ep1 where they both were throwing feces at one another. Everything else is our decisions.
Like I said before, having written an MA thesis on the unequal treatment of women in video games, I'm well aware of the underlying issues causing gamers to favor male player characters. However, in TFTB, I do feel like the girls (and I'm not going to say Fiona, because it's definitely both Fiona and Sasha) are given more leeway than the boys. And my main method to check whether this is in fact true, is the 'what if the situation was reversed' test...
Present day Fiona and Rhys hate each other - if it was Fiona drooling on Rhys, would I be comfortable with Rhys spitting on her and punching her, just because he felt like letting off some steam? Probably not.
Rhys and Vaughn decide to push the girls out of the moving vehicle to their death - still funny with the roles reversed? Well, it would be to me, but I'm a sociopath. For the majority of viewers it would probably be a moral event horizon for the boys.
Sasha: We made up the fake vault key deal to get out of this shithole of a town we live in, we were just trying to get ahead. Rhys (pointing a gun at her): Idgaf, you bandit, get moving. Hahaha.
Fiona: Gaah! This psycho is trying to kill me! Vaughn: Lol, I don't need you to retrieve the money, so whatevs... Hahaha.
Rhys: So, the girls got stranded in the desert... do you think they'll survive? Vaughn: Nope. Rhys: Yeah, whatever. Haha... you get the gist.
Etc., etc....
Wow, those guys are serious doucheba... wait a minute...
I love badass female characters. I love renagade femshep. You know why? Cause she's exactly the same as renegade maleshep. There are no double standards there (there are in the rest of the game like whoa, but that's not the point here). I love a dickish female Warden in DA:O, and a murderous female Fallout protagonist. But that's because they can act the same as their male counterparts, and they get the same responses from npcs, be those grovelling or bullets to the face.
I also want to note that I don't have a problem with those things happening, I jut have a problem with them not being acknowledged.
I'm not offended at the violence, it's just that most people have a little bit more sympathy for an ass who gets the crap kicked out of him constantly for little reason than they do for a bitch who doesn't. Thus, no Rhys hate-threads. If Fiona was brutally beaten half to death every other scene for shits and giggles and Rhys wasn't, it'd be the other way around. Except a number of players would cry misogyny and the game's popularity would take a blow. It's a wonderful world we live in.
Ah, but all the instances you mention of Rhys insulting people are examples where he only does so if you tell him to. I haven't seen any of the dialogue you're talking about because I didn't pick those options. And no, in the beginning of episode 1 and in every "present-day" scene thereafter it's almost exclusively Fiona throwing feces at Rhys without provocation, no player choice involved.
You're right that both girls get in on the action here. I just have a harder time blaming Sasha because she has a bit more 'sociopathic wasteland survivor' going for her than Fiona does, making her behavior seem more appropriate to her environment than Fiona's, who is presented as the more rational and level-headed of the two but still goes out of her way to kick Rhys when he's down.
Better, how about we just stop torturing characters and pucnhung them just for the lulz of it? Because it's not really that funny. The first time Rhys got punched in my game it was just because I decided to stay silent in hope that this way Vasquez won't do anything cause he already demoted Rhys. Well, maybe that one time it wasn't even supposed to be funny but I don't think we need that kind of unnecessary violence at all. Hitting yourself - yeah, why not, kinda funny. Being punched like that - not so much. Doesn't matter if you "deserved" it or not.
Which as we already kinda (kinda) agreed on is still up in the air as we don't have a single clue what the hell happened and why they act like they do. So beside that one you also have no examples of her oh so rude behavior. That's not to mention it all can change as they'll finish their story once they know why the other did what he/she did (cause it's already happening if you decided not to trust Jack for instance).
You're missing the point. Again, I'm not offended at the violence, but a character that consistently takes a beating for no reason generates some sympathy, ass or not. Fiona has no such balance for her even worse behavior, and so it makes sense for people to dislike her where Rhys is slightly harder to blame. Thus, no hate-Rhys threads.
We don't actually know that anything specific will happen to that effect, and that the animosity we see now isn't just the result of them having spent longer in each other's company. We've yet to see anything justify Fiona's abuse of Rhys and general heartlessness towards the guys, and so it isn't excusable. If something happens then we'll adjust our opinions, obviously, but Fiona's just doesn't look very good right now.
Well, I'd disagree with that, because the way I see it, Sasha isn't presented as 'sociopathic' at all, even though she is... she is in fact presented as the 'emotional' member of the team, the 'heart' to Fiona's 'mind', i.e. the one favoring feeling over reason... and what she's 'feeling' kinda sucks to me.
Mind you, I have a particular hatred for people who ignore reasonable arguments because they 'feel too strongly about the issue to consider them', which I feel is exactly what Sasha's character is doing, so she really rubs me the wrong way.
True, but with ten million dollars on the line, a gun in my hand and my own survival on a Fallout-esque planet populated three quarters by psychopaths to see too, I'd be happy to ignore all kinds of reasonable arguments too.
When the money are no longer within reach and Hyperion apparently tries to kill Rhys and Vaugh, Sasha seems to loose most of her hostility. Fiona doesn't.
It's entirely in your hands for Fiona lose her hostility.
Not at all. Fiona hates Rhys' guts whenever she's out of our control, and I personally need to keep her consistent to play her at all.
Please show me ALL examples minus the present day segments AND the segments where it's your choice in what kind of response she'll give to any character.
Agreed, Sasha's attitude evolves, at least in ep.3, but during the 'past' parts of the game Fiona isn't so much 'hostile' as she is 'distant'. She makes flippant remarks, and she just doesn't seem to care all that much... which, admittedly, makes it harder to empathize and identify with her. But she develops in ep.3 as well (her returning Rhys' shoe, if it happens, is pretty companionable, to name one example).
Still, one key point of the story (the Borderlands story in general, actually) seems to be that not all the people on Pandora are psychos and bandits - there are also normal people who are just trying to live their lives, like Fiona and Sasha... but Sasha isn't really making a good case for herself... (I mean, I act like that in Fallout, and let's just say my karma levels aren't exactly soaring :P).
Ok, It's past 2 am here, I'm going to bed now.
I think I'll pretend you didn't just ask me to do such a huge amount of work just to convince you. Replay the episodes yourself and pay attention to all the times she snipes at him out of nowhere. RatPack is right that she's mostly distant and flippant in the later memory sequences, excepting the shoe thing which I had totally forgotten about, but I see no problem in using her present-day behavior to characterize her too.
No, there is a problem when someone automatically jumps on the "hate" bandwagon when we're treated to a scene where two characters hate each other and there's clear indication as there's more to the story in how they came to hate each other. How do I know I should feel sorry for Rhys for getting abused by Fiona, he might have actually deserved every bit of abuse she gave him and those scenes are just there to remind us that they have a rivalry. Again, we don't know, the only thing that matters are the flashbacks.
Yes, convince me, otherwise your reasons look petty and narrow minded and seemingly taken out of context.
It seemed to me that Sasha quickly grew comfortable with the guys from the ending of the first episode and then onwards. She doesn't say much of anything against them when they're all in the chamber under Bossanova's arena, she at least seems torn between helping Rhys and helping Fiona when both are beset by bat-thingies during the escape in Atlas Mugged, and when Rhys is speeding between the legs of the Rakk Hive she has her hand on his shoulder, grinning wildly. And when they're all separated, she's the one to raise the question of whether the boys will be okay on their own.
All in all, I don't think her early snipes were personal at all. But that's just me.
Oh, I don't really think they hate each other. Rhys at least is almost polite to her in the present day sequences. I think she has a big problem with him, and I think she's being an absolute bitch about it. She doesn't state her feelings or accuse him directly or ask what the hell he was thinking when he did x or y that she has such a problem with, she just insults, belittles and beats on him with no restraint or comeuppance from the story, and he takes it all mostly lying down, rarely defending himself or striking back. She does this even after it becomes perfectly clear that he's willing to talk about everything that happened and explain his reasoning, and she does it even when his reasoning makes perfect sense.
Yes, it would ruin the chronology of the flashbacks if they got into whatever her problem is before the retelling caught up to that point, but it's still a mark against her that she doesn't just cut the crap and deal with her issue instead of venting passive-aggressively at him like a child, and nobody calls her on it. And again, she and her family dangled him out of a speeding car without apology, she blatantly ignored Vaughn being in danger throughout the race and none of her dialogue options express any regret at leaving the two of them stranded in the middle of the desert.
And again again, if the roles were reversed and Rhys was the one beating on Fiona just because he felt like it we'd all hate him for that, no matter what the ultimate reasoning was. But no, Fiona is a woman so it's a-okay with the majority if she wants to deal out corporeal punishment.
Uh... No... Fiona is my personal favorite in the game.. I think she is perfectly capable and well written character. Sasha is pretty annoying in my opinion, but I can't think of any reason why would someone dislike Sasha, Fiona or even Rhys for their flaws. This game is pretty fun and I would rather save dislikes for the characters who actually deserve it.
Really? You're using those examples to say on how much of a bitch Fiona is?
Rhys and Vaughn TRIED TO STEAL FIONA AND SASHA'S ONLY DAMN WAY TO ESCAPE FROM AUGUST and they're HYPERION and Hyperion folks are nothing but degenerates to them due to what Hyperions did to Pandora!
How exactly did Fiona ignore Vaughn being in danger when there's an option to tell Vaughn to get down from the large crane AND an option TO SAVE VAUGHN FROM GETTING KILLED BY A BANDIT.
It wasn't even Fiona's fault for leaving Vaughn and Rhys out in the desert, she actually tries to SAVE BOTH RHYS AND VAUGHN from hurling out of the caravan for god's sake, was exactly is Fiona guilty of here?
As for Fiona's character in the present day segments, again, something happened between the two of them that made them not care for each other and her lashing out at Rhys is more or less probably justified but we don't know yet. Rhys is not much of a puppy dog like you're making him out to be, he's just telling his side of the story and arguing with Fiona and there's even a scene where he was being smug about drooling on Fiona and he even insults her and makes fun of her in the present day segments.
If Rhys was beating Fiona, it would be a little shocking, but I wouldn't suddenly go ahead and call Rhys a shit bag because I don't know the full story yet of how they're at each other's throats.
Rhys and Fiona are not meant to be nice or compassionate characters. They're written to be jerk bags with some redeeming qualities considering I think it was mentioned at the beginning of episode 1 that Rhys has killed many people, has betrayed some allies, and wants to be JUST LIKE Handsome Jack, so Rhys is not meant to be a nice person neither is Fiona.
Rhys and Vaughn tried to escape in the only car available after Sasha, August and Fiona first screwed them over and then started shooting at each other. Fiona and Sasha were in no position to blame them for it, to be honest, and they could have just kicked them off at the nearest outpost, or even just stopped the car for a moment and thrown them out. But of course not, they instead tried to throw the boys out of the open door while speeding through the desert. To save the bullets, according to Fiona herself. How is that not a bitch move?
You're right about her and Vaughn, I didn't notice the option for her to attack the axe guy on any of my playthroughs.
It wasn't her fault that they were thrown out of the car, obviously, but when Sasha raises the subject of them probably not being able to survive alone, every dialogue option basically amounts to "meh", and the idea of turning the car around doesn't even register.
And again, no matter what happened prior to the present day sequences Fiona is handling it like a child and a bully, and Rhys is mostly just defending himself and not even that hard. The moment where he's smug about accidentally drooling on her is immediately followed by her spitting on him, and then punching him in the neck just because she feels like it while someone else basically holds him at gunpoint. Yeah, totally justified.
You're saying that if Rhys was beating Fiona, spitting on her, kicking sand in her face and calling her an idiot at every opportunity regardless of what she said, completely unprovoked, you wouldn't think he was a shitbag? Personally, I doubt the game would ever have gotten a green light featuring that. The aggression in those scenes is almost completely one-sided, Rhys defending himself a little bit now and then doesn't exactly balance it out.
Uhm, no, Rhys probably never killed anyone before that fight with the bandits in the first episode. For one thing, he's horrified by Vasquez killing his boss. For another, Vaughn sarcastically mutters "Yeah, just helped you kill a guy. No big deal there." after helping Fiona take care of a psycho midget, implying that murder wasn't one of the horrible things he and Rhys did to get their hands on that promotion. For a third, seeing Rhys' feeble attempt at strangulation, bodily violence and homicidal tendencies obviously isn't one of the ways in which he tries to emulate Handsome Jack.
I'd have no trouble believing that Fiona has killed before, though. It's hard to make a dishonest living on Pandora without hurting anyone, there is that bounty on her, and when Scooter comes back to chat after talking with the bounty hunters he seems pretty sure that she's a murderer...
It's hard to write a good strong and relate-able female character, because the real taboo seems to be the ability to be fallible, or dumb, or misguided. Rhys can be a total jerk, but he also had moments of kicking over the garbage can, and having his name called to clean it up. His bragging about knowing how to get into the Hyperion systems resulted in a near stroke and him passed out on the floor. He couldn't strangle a guard, he is afraid of heights, He got his sock covered foot stuck in the lid of a dumpster, he is human. Fiona lacks those moments and it makes her flaws and confident strutting more insufferable instead of admirable. There is so much pressure in making the new strong woman archetype that they forget to add the flaws that would keep them from being Mary Sues.
Vaughn says that things they've both done will haunt him in his dreams (we don't know if he directly killed someone like Jack did in his time, but the fact is still here because Vaughn is freaking out about that) + as we all know by now, eridium is quite poisonous so by sending people to work in eridium mines you're killing them or at the very least crippling them (again, Vaughn's commentary - "those people need to work somewhere, right?" - basically, they both don't really care about them that much). There also was an unused audio where Rhys is looking in the mirror and says something like "pff, and people said I won't be able to look at myself after all I've done".
Whatever he did it was not something petty. It was more or less serious, just not staright up bloody nightmare like what Jack did.
Kind of a baseless accusation. And that's right after she says that she doesn't like guns (even petty ones like Felix gave her) and she prefers talking over shooting as her "one talent is talking to people until they get confused".
You're on it again, aren't you? There are 4 options as always - 1 They'll be fine. 2.They have a chance 3.They won't last a night 4.Silence. How the f two options like positive "they're fine" and neutral "they have a chance" (where she says that if they're smart they have a chance because all they have to do is to find a shelter and build a fire) turned into meh? Like seriously, she's not their mother or anything. The assumption that they could've just turned the car is unrealistic as hell as well, this freaking car had only 1 wheel and barely made it to Hollow point.
On my part, I'm not trying to argue that Rhys and Vaughn are innocent cinnamon rolls or anything, or that Fiona and Sasha are worse people than they are. What bothers me is just the way their more morally questionable actions are presented within the story - the way Rhys is always somehow called out on his douchebaggery, but the girls aren't.
I'm probably a broken record by now, but once again - the girls have actively tried to kill Rhys and Vaughn, (and later pretty much abandoned them to certain death in the desert and didn't care much about it), yet it's all treated as a joke, despite being quite a serious moral event horizon if you think about it. It just grates on me that 'trying to steal a car' is apparently a pretty bad deed, but 'trying to kill two non-hostile, defenseless men' is a funny gag. Again - it's not the actions themselves that I have a problem with, just how they're framed in the story.
Well, I think it's the side of the same coin. I mean, when you think that you can punch and abuse boys just for a comedy effect but you can't do the same with girls - it's what happens in reality, those double standards. I think we didn't have that in original BL because we either had verbal jokes or lethal jokes (like shooting someone in the face and all that) and it was fine with everyone because it clearly wasn't real. But now we're getting mixed messages - 1 that punching someone is fine and fun 2 but only fine as long as they "deserve" it and/or it happen to male characters - bringing some "realism" into unrealistic settings. I hope I'm making sense cause I don't know how to put it properly.
Yea, I think I get what you're saying, and it's probably true, but the side effect of that 'realism' is that the girls become unlikable to a lot of players, as evidenced by this thread.
I'd personally prefer for all characters to be measured by the same yardstick.
Yeah well unfortunately, TftB still have to work on it.
she's kinda boring but that's just because everyone else is a fucking nutcase.
That's funny. I've seen so many people saying how much they hate Fiona because she's mean, harsh, flippant or doesn't seem to care about anything. And now you're saying you hate her because she's overly compassionate. Translation: She's the main female character so it doesn't matter what she does or how she's portrayed, people are going to hate her.
Like I said before, Fiona AND Rhys are not meant to be nice or compassionate characters like you want them to be so don't expect Fiona and Sasha to act like Rhy's and Vaughn's parents or anything, that's just stupid thinking. If I don't have the context yet as to why Rhys would abuse Fiona especially since there IS context that I haven't seen yet then I'm not going jump on the "Let's all hate Rhys because he punched a woman even if this woman might have deserved it" bandwagon.
You also seem to be ignoring the fact that Hyperions are not well liked on Pandora, since like Sasha says, Hyperion made hell for so many Pandorans, so why should Fiona and Sasha give two sleazy Hyperion workers a chance since there is always a possibility that Rhys and Vaughn will end up killing the both of them first?
I should probably mention that if Fiona kicks the pshyco instead Vaughn will then grab the psycho and drag him off into the road and not SAY ANYTHING, of course that's optional.
I feel you're grossly over exaggerating Fiona's and Rhy's behavior in the present day segments and applying an already established opinion even though no one has any context to why they both dislike each other.
Your reasons are still petty and you're still taking everything out of context.
I think your problem here seems to be more with the nonsensical nature of the borderlands universe than with Fiona's character.