Something Lilith haters should know.
Gearbox basically retconned the whole "Lilith is evil" thing in the claptastic voyage Dlc. near the start of the dlc (in normal mode, not tvhm) lilith openly and sincerely apologises to Athena for wanting to kill her and attributes her rage to the loss of her boyfriend, although this information might not change your mind, ive notice that a lot of people arent aware of all the important exposition in the claptastic voyage dlc, the information we get tells us about stuff most people had no idea about, like did you know that the holy spirits bar in overlook (bl2) used to be a church and that pickle actually wanted to enter the drakensburg to retrieve his parents ashes (they were stolen by the bosun)
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If you got a video of that, I would be very happy to watch it.
I think the Lilith hate is in two parts: her random falcon punch and her treatment of Athena. The Athena part most people seem to get beyond.She's being emotional and eventually apologizes to Athena so we're good. But that punch basically turned up the mayhem in Bl2 from normal megalomaniac villain destruction to eye ball spoon scooping with bad violin accompaniment mayhem .
I don't exactly hate Lillith, but I don't like she's basically responsible for Handsome Jack becoming what he is. If she had just killed him right then and there rather than being spiteful and slamming the relic onto his face, we could have avoided a lot of trouble, and Roland would still be alive.
Retconned? They never implied that Lilith is evil. They also never implied that Jack is some misunderstood poor cinnamon roll some fans like him to be. Fans decided that Lilith is evil and Jack is misunderstood, not Gearbox.
I don't understand all the hate Lilith got. Athena killed every Atlas employee she could because Atlas made her kill her sister, Brick killed people because they killed his dog, Mordecai went ballistic whne Bloodwing got killed, Fiona migth've killed her "father" because he scammed her. Lilith did nothing exceptional for Borderlands series. She was bitter and wanted revenge and a scapegoat, like every other character did in that situation.
That's just a plot hole imo. Or at least it looks like it. Though I remember discussion about that scene and why she was alone with Jack (and his VHs) in the Vault and that maybe she was somehow aware of what might happen if she won't destroy the relic but it still looks like a plot hole.
(I'm not targeting this at you or anyone specific, this just a rant that explains why I feel her haters are wrong)
First off, do you need to be reminded that Borderlands 2 came out first. TPS was an after thought. The punch was their lazy attempt at explaining why Jack has the scar the second game. There was no other purpose to that scene. Cause by all accounts Lilith could've and would've killed Jack right then and there but then what happens to the continuity? That's the problem with any franchise when you jam in a story that was not apart of the original plan, you're going to make plot holes.
I have yet to meet someone that has jumped on this Lilith hate train that wasn't unaware, or straight up ignoring, what we knew about Jack's past in BL2. I call them fickle because since TPS was the most recent game, that's all they care about. And problem with that is how not the most thought was put into the story of TPS. Where BL2 expanded story and made a lot out of nothing, TPS really did fail at explaining where these details came from. If I'm being cynical it's cause Gearbox just wanted to milk the die-hards like myself and didn't really care too much about story. If I'm not, the game's narrative is of that of the villain of a previously game, you have to take the story with that grain of salt. You don't blame the 3 pigs for creating the Big Bad Wolf after reading that one book that paints him as a victim, you enjoy the story, but you don't let it overwrite what is established prior.
One of my favorite arguments when it comes to what made Jack is his relationship with Moxxi. In Borderlands 2: it is stated that they dated, Moxxi was drawn to him cause he seemed nice, was handsome, and "was willing to shoot someone in the face if they looked at her wrong". This alone shows Jack had violent tendencies before TPS, where when he's first introduced, he's portrayed as the helpless do-gooder with no experience in fighting. Going off of that, Moxxi states she broke up with him for 2 reasons, he got clingy and he murdered a bunch of people for no reason. In TPS, when the issue of why they broke up is asked, all they say is, Moxxi thought he was creepy. That is Jack's pov talking. He's doesn't get that what he did was obscenely wrong. Yes it is Athena's pov technically, but that is majorly affected by Jack's perspective. Jack doesn't like to kill innocents, but this alone shows that he's view of right and wrong are so off that you have to think he has psychosis.
If you look at the fact that in TPS, Jack calls Roland and Lilith, "friends". That shows he's more than just violent and crazy, it shows how two face he is and great hiding his motives. Cause if you play TPS, you learn Jack has been pulling the strings from the start. He views the Vault Hunters as nothing more than dumb muscle that will do his dirty work. He's smart enough to know that if they realize this, they'll probably kill him, so he plays innocent. Lilith and Roland's don't know anything about him except what Moxxi has told them about him. And that alone is enough to scare them into planning a way to end him before he gets more power. But Jack doesn't know that, he still believed they were dumbasses that he could dupe into helping him get another vault. So when people say they destroyed, I can't help but laugh at the hypocrisy of the situation.
And that's not even looking at event isolated to the TPS alone.
Again, TPS wasn't the best story and IMO hurt the Borderlands canon with contradicting perspectives and plot holes that have confused and misguided a lot of fans. In truth, people should blame Jack's grandmother over Lilith for creating him.
One issue I have is, after all the DLC's of BL2 came out, Lilith had come to terms with the loss of Roland, she had mourned and was done and was willing to help others with. In Tina's DLC alone, she both comforted Tina, but also defend Angel from her. I viewed it as, Lilith maturing and ready to become the leader of the Raiders.
TPS they wrote her as she still wasn't over it yet, that she still had a major grudge, and was so irrational about it that she was going to hurt people who were really shouldn't be blamed (when Brick screamed: "this isn't you Lilith" I was screaming listen to BRICK!). But I am hoping it was just to build up the tension in the clmiax, cause I will admit it got me on edge.
It's such a plot hole
I honestly don't understand why they couldn't just get away with the scar being some side-effect from using the relic. Like... why the hell not? It's only logical. There was literally no reason it has to be like that - at least from what we know about the characters and the Vaults.
Don't forget the big-ass lazer that solidified their impression.
Woah. There's a lot of hate in there...not sure if its directed at gearbox, jack's grandma, or the lilith haters. Or all of them.
Personally I'm not on the Lilith hate train. I just wanted to toss my two cents into the discussion. That ending just bothers me..it's just off.
Story-wise, it kinda can be explained by the fact that when she saw Athena and when she spoke with her she lost control again because it reopened her wounds. But the problem is, there's too much "well cause" that is open to interpretation.
I think it was one of those plot-holes-kinda decisions. Like what else could've explained why Athena is with them in the Sanctuary, especially knowing that she dates Janey now and "retired". There had to be a reason why she's helping the VHs. And the reason is that they just hauled her in... and there also had to be an alien who saved the day and was all mysterious... The same level of explanation we got when they were talking about Aurelia - 'we searched for her and we got her'. And Aurelia has even less reasons to be there than Athena who at least feels somewhat guilty and responsible.
It's not like, that I'm a big fan of Lilith behaviour in the Vault, but...
1. Jack was villain since the beginning. There's no doubt about it. He was well on his way to becoming a paranoid monster well before Lilith got involved.
2. That punch from was indeed unnecessary. Still tho, It doesn't seem to me that if Lil wouldn't hit him, he wouldn't have become a mass murderer. She just helped accelerate a fall that was already quite evident. With that in mind, I assume that the course of events in game would proceeded in a similar rhythm as it was in BL2.
So guys... stop that needless hate train. There's no white knights and Jokers in BL universe. Everyone has his own murderous and - in general - "bad" side of personality side of personality. This is propobly why we love this franchise so much.
Gearbox and the haters.
Oh agreed with pretty much everything you said. TPS's story was just a mess as a prequel. It made go "wtf that doesn't make any sense" multiple times from exactly the points you made. I don't hate the game, but damn did i dislike the plot.
Oh, no way bruh. Bro, I had no idea that there were other like minded individuals on this forum.
(I'm sorry this popped into my head)
Contrary to popular belief, apologizing for being a jackhole does not remove the fact that you are a jackhole. What Lilith did wasn't an impulsive, rage-induced moment of madness but a long-time planned attempt to have OTHER PEOPLE murder someone for her while she watches. And lets not forget that the reason she wasn't succesfull wasn't that she had a sudden attack of conciense but because a literal deus ex machina appeared and stopped the bullets. Add that with how Mordecai and Brick became vocal of their opposition to the execution and Lilith's apology starts to sound a lot less sincere and more like damage control.
Yes, she has issues but they ultimately excuse nothing. She made choices and those choises brought her much closer to the Vallory/pre-handsome Jack end of the Borderlands moral scale than the Roland end.
Yes, yes, sure, but here's the thing about the Internet:
People will never back down. They will fight to the bitter end to defend their opinion, even if they look increasingly like an idiot doing so.
WHICH IS WHY THIS STUPID FUCKING GANG WAR IS STILL GOING ON.
IT'S BEEN SEVERAL FUCKING MONTHS PEOPLE, LET THE FUCK GO.