The feminist post will never work because people fail to understand the problem is not black and white. There is no right answer you can not say that all feminism is dumb because it's simply not true but saying that western feminism is way too radical is no understatement. If feminism would focus on parts of the world where women are seens as objects and their only role is to have children maybe we could have progress in this debate.
I know you were joking, but just to give a serious response, we don't have a problem with people discussing social issues or anything seriou… mores that isn't about video games.
We just don't want people derailing threads with personal attacks over arguments, and we don't want people posting racist/homophobic/otherwise hateful comments. Being offended because of somebody having another opinion is vastly different from being offended because somebody personally attacked you, and we focus mostly on keeping the latter from happening. When we flag posts, it is because people got carried away with their arguments and derailed the discussion into something worse with personal insults, bigoted posts, etc. People can disagree with each other in a civil, constructive manner that doesn't derail threads, resort to personal attacks, or come off as bigoted/hateful/discriminatory.
I'm comparing the practice of censoring opinions that are unpopular to what was done by the Nazis. I'm not comparing those people to Nazis. I'm just saying that the censoring of opinions is the same.
Going to be honest, it really isn't. Usually don't see SJW or political correctness people attacking physically and sometimes killing people who disagree with them. The Nazi's didn't just "Ban" people or push them away from certain things, while that was a part of their plan, the Nazis imprisoned people in concentration camps and murdered them. When people start doing that again, then you can use your Nazi argument, until then it sounds really crazy.
I'm comparing the practice of censoring opinions that are unpopular to what was done by the Nazis. I'm not comparing those people to Nazis. I'm just saying that the censoring of opinions is the same.
Still the same principle behind it, regardless of the means. While SJW's don't take it to the extremes that the Nazis did, the goal is still the same; to prevent criticism.
Going to be honest, it really isn't. Usually don't see SJW or political correctness people attacking physically and sometimes killing people… more who disagree with them. The Nazi's didn't just "Ban" people or push them away from certain things, while that was a part of their plan, the Nazis imprisoned people in concentration camps and murdered them. When people start doing that again, then you can use your Nazi argument, until then it sounds really crazy.
Not exactly. However, let's face it, if anyone wants to have power wouldn't they try and prevent criticism? All major powers in the world have done it...Christianity, Islam, Communists, even Capitalists. Everyone who wants to keep power has to prevent issues that jeopardize their power.
Still the same principle behind it, regardless of the means. While SJW's don't take it to the extremes that the Nazis did, the goal is still the same; to prevent criticism.
Not exactly. However, let's face it, if anyone wants to have power wouldn't they try and prevent criticism? All major powers in the world ha… moreve done it...Christianity, Islam, Communists, even Capitalists. Everyone who wants to keep power has to prevent issues that jeopardize their power.
It's nothing new, and it will always be that way.
Yet that's where you mess up, you say that you support all kinds of free speech but saying that the opinions like Kenny/Lee are supporting (Gay rights specifically) are being censored is kinda wrong since that free speech limits other free speech and it keeps going. If you try to complain about the SJWs and progressives, you risk censoring them and therefore doing another circle.
The best thing is to get over it, you're not going to solve anything, let these things fall apart by themselves, it always happens.
I think you've missed the point. Nobody should be censoring anybody. Anybody should be able to say and criticize whatever they want, and nobody should be exempt from mature, reasonable criticism.
Yet that's where you mess up, you say that you support all kinds of free speech but saying that the opinions like Kenny/Lee are supporting (… moreGay rights specifically) are being censored is kinda wrong since that free speech limits other free speech and it keeps going. If you try to complain about the SJWs and progressives, you risk censoring them and therefore doing another circle.
The best thing is to get over it, you're not going to solve anything, let these things fall apart by themselves, it always happens.
That thread wasn't fine. It was becoming insulting and just plain vile. It wasn't going anywhere, and it was just going more and more against the respect rules of the forum guidelines, and against the Telltale terms of service.
As was pointed out, this isn't really a forum for freedom of expression, it's a forum for Telltale's games, and whatever is posted here reflects on Telltale as a company, so we have to abide by the forum guidelines and the Telltale terms of service (which prevents rude, bigoted, and nasty stuff from being posted).
I agree with Blind Sniper that I'd be open for an all encompassing social issues thread staying open, but it would have to have really strict rules for banning for insulting and rude posts (so no insulting terminology for any groups of people (even terms such as immoral or unnatural, or calling someone a bigot, racist, homophobe, etc.), since we've gotten flag notifications in the past for those types of words and I agree with those flags as that's insulting an individual or an entire group of people and is not being respectful). It is possible to debate without using those terms (and much worse ones), but no thread on these forums related to controversial social issues has ever done so, at least not for a long period of time.
[Blind Sniper edit: To clarify, I meant applying a general, more strict rule set to any thread that discusses social issues that could attract arguments and personal attacks - not an individual, all encompassing thread.]
There's a big difference between saying "I am against this social issue because of my religion, so here's what my religious text states about the subject" and "every one who participates in this social issue is immoral". The first is stating your stance on the issue. The second is using weasel words that just cause anger as it uses an insult towards an entire group of people. The same goes with people responding. There's a big difference between "I don't agree with your religion's stance, here's why" and "you are a bigot" or "all people from your religion are bigots". The first is stating your stance on the issue, and the second is an insult to a person or a group of people. And that won't be accepted. Since we have people on this forum of all backgrounds, posting in an insulting way, either towards a person directly, or towards any group of people goes against the Telltale terms of use and forum guidelines in regards to respect and not making insulting posts.
If anyone's open to a thread with strict rules that can lead to removal of posts with insulting terminology immediately and lead to temporary bans without warnings (since the thread itself would be the warning as we'd let people know that we were going to do so in the first post of the thread), I'd be more than open to having a thread like that. But it has to be under those conditions, because in the end the moderators have to follow the policies laid out by the Telltale staff, and their terms of service would forbid heated threads such as these to keep going if it continued to have posts with disrespectful language.
Hmm, sounds odd. I don't know the context of that thread, so I can't speak too much, but maybe that was from one of the newer mods trying to… more learn the ropes of when to lock threads or figure out the mod tools? I'd have to check it out to see why it was locked.
https://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/96236/transgender-student-sues-school-citing-restroom-policy
In looking back at that, I guess @Green613 and I sort of had a really stupid (seriously, I have no idea why either one of us cared) side conversation going on over whether or not one my posts was clear enough, but other than that, the thread was more than fine. The side conversation could have easily been stopped if it was actually some sort of big distraction or something, and it really wasn't. Anyway, the excuse given was that the thread was being derailed into a "jokes and memes" thread, when that wasn't really happening, given that the topic was actively being d… [view original content]
I wasn't talking about the right to free speech. I was only saying that people are over sensitive to opinions that differ from their own, es… morepecially so in the case of "controversial" subjects. And yes, removing certain opinions/ content, or stopping that content from even being expressed in the first place, is definitely censorship. That's what censorship is.
Obviously they're separate, they aren't the same thing. But discussion of censorship only works when considering rights to freedom of speech, action or expression, as censorship is defined in those terms.
Obviously they're separate, they aren't the same thing. But discussion of censorship only works when considering rights to freedom of speech, action or expression, as censorship is defined in those terms.
My original comment is sort of indirectly tied to the idea of free speech, but that isn't the point I was trying to make. I wasn't talking about it in a legal sense, which is what you were depicting in the comic, picture, or whatever it is that you posted. I wasn't making a case for the 1st amendment. I was simply asking for people to be less sensitive, and to be more objective in dealing with a difference in opinion.
I think you've missed the point. Nobody should be censoring anybody. Anybody should be able to say and criticize whatever they want, and nobody should be exempt from mature, reasonable criticism.
Super hypocritical coming from you but I'll let that end there.
People don't want their own opinions to be censored, however do you know how many people who talk about free speech don't care if someone else's opinion, who they don't like, gets censored? It's a common thing.
I don't need people to hold my ears and plug them when someone farts. That is just my opinion, and i'm not forcing my views or opinions on others. So relax.
That thread wasn't fine. It was becoming insulting and just plain vile. It wasn't going anywhere, and it was just going more and more against the respect rules of the forum guidelines, and against the Telltale terms of service.
And this is where the over sensitivity comes into play, as far as myself and others are concerned. This is the internet. Every now and then someone is going to drop by and say something that someone finds "insulting", or "out of line". As a moderator, you can edit and delete those posts, as well as deal with the person who made those posts, as long as they were legitimately being malicious. There is no need to shut down an entire active discussion at the first sign of someone saying something that you don't like. Again, as I mentioned to Blind Sniper, if that is how you are going to moderate, you make is ridiculously easy for someone to get a thread locked if they wish to do so. Instead of punishing those who want to have a reasonable discussion, simply deal with the people who are legitimately being malicious or "trolling". In the case of the thread in question, the very vast majority of the thread was reasonable. In your initial reasoning for closing the thread, you didn't even make mention of of the one supposed out of line comment that someone had quoted from an entirely different website to begin with.. not to mention that said person only quoted it to laugh at it. Again, it was just one completely random comment. It could have easily been deleted, and the people who wished to have intelligent, reasonable conversation could have been left to do so. Just being truthful of my opinion of the matter, I think you closed the topic simply because you did not like what was being discussed. I see no other rational reason for why the topic was so abruptly put to a screeching halt when there were other courses of action that could have been taken, as is done in plenty of other threads. This instance is sort of a prime example of why there have been forum members that have been confused/irritated by the number of threads that end up getting closed.
As was pointed out, this isn't really a forum for freedom of expression, it's a forum for Telltale's games, and whatever is posted here reflects on Telltale as a company, so we have to abide by the forum guidelines and the Telltale terms of service (which prevents rude, bigoted, and nasty stuff from being posted).
Then perhaps we should just totally remove the entirety of the "Telltale Talk" section of the forum, because the vast majority of the discussion there is not about Telltale's games. Many users, such as myself, have been here for a decent chunk of time now, and we like to discuss with one another about things outside of Telltale's games. I think that's a given, and a reason why this section of the forum even exists in the first place.
Obviously Telltale (and any other company) wants to have a good environment for discussion, but that can still be the case while talking about "sensitive" topics. If people want to strictly stick to talking about Telltale's games, there are obviously several sections for that. It also should go without saying that someone does not need to venture into a topic that they do not want to partake in. As long as people are being civil and rational, there is no reason to censor them, 100% regardless of what topic they may be posting on, be it a take on abortion or an opinion about a video game character.
I agree with Blind Sniper that I'd be open for an all encompassing social issues thread staying open, but it would have to have really strict rules for banning for insulting and rude posts
I don't think that's the best thing to do, for reasons I just described. Again, the Telltale Talk section has been full of these types of conversations. If someone doesn't want to engage in those conversations, it's as simple as that person not clicking on a topic that they do not want to be involved in. That just seems like common sense. No one is forcing someone to read or participate in something that they aren't comfortable engaging in. It seems pretty unfair to try and cram everything into one thread considering all this, and given how things have been moderated lately, it wouldn't be surprising if that one thread would end up getting locked anyway, which would obviously defeat the purpose.
it would have to have really strict rules for banning for insulting and rude posts (so no insulting terminology for any groups of people (even terms such as immoral or unnatural, or calling someone a bigot, racist, homophobe, etc.)
Again, this goes back to over sensitivity. Saying that you think that something is immoral is not necessarily rude. It's a reasonable opinion, and can absolutely be expressed in a civil, well intending manner. If the person in question is obviously not being malicious, then banning them is a little ridiculous. Kenny/Lee, for example, has been banned for expressing his opinions on morality, and many of us believe that to be beyond ridiculous. If you are familiar with his posting at all, it is blatantly obvious that he is a good guy and means well. Hell, he is far more civil than posters who directly respond to and oppose his opinions.. and yet he is the one who ends up getting banned. It makes no sense. People need to develop a thicker skin, and learn to understand that not all people think the same way. That doesn't mean others that have different opinions are bad people, or that they have any bad intent what so ever. It would be great if we could all be mature enough to understand these things, and have open, objective conversations. For example, I find abortion to be pretty monstrous stuff, but I don't necessarily find people who support abortion to be bad people (I have friends and family who support abortion), nor do I think those people should have their opinions censored. It's important to be able to discuss these things, and not be ridiculously over sensitive while doing so.
There's a big difference between saying "I am against this social issue because of my religion, so here's what my religious text states about the subject" and "every one who participates in this social issue is immoral". The first is stating your stance on the issue. The second is using weasel words that just cause anger as it uses an insult towards an entire group of people. The same goes with people responding. There's a big difference between "I don't agree with your religion's stance, here's why" and "you are a bigot" or "all people from your religion are bigots". The first is stating your stance on the issue, and the second is an insult to a person or a group of people. And that won't be accepted. Since we have people on this forum of all backgrounds, posting in an insulting way, either towards a person directly, or towards any group of people goes against the Telltale terms of use and forum guidelines in regards to respect and not making insulting posts.
I agree that people should not directly insult someone as a response to their opinion, while also keeping in mind the actual intentions of the poster. That said, as I have said before, people who cross that line can be dealt with 1on1, just as they are in any other thread. An entire conversation doesn't have to be put to a screeching halt because someone inevitably gets overheated and says something a little edgy. People are very passionate about these subjects, and passionate responses ultimately go with the territory. It happens. That's why we have moderators. Its not fair that one, two, or even three people stepping out of line should ruin the discussion for those that are staying in bounds. And even then, many of us could stand to grow thicker skin, as I have already said. People get heated and sometimes say things that they are better off not saying. That's life. Best we all get used to it, and learn how to handle it in a realistic fashion.
Anyway, this ended up being a bit of a long post. Just wanted to express where myself and others are coming from. I may or may not end up elaborating further, as it's pretty clear how I feel about this.
That thread wasn't fine. It was becoming insulting and just plain vile. It wasn't going anywhere, and it was just going more and more agai… morenst the respect rules of the forum guidelines, and against the Telltale terms of service.
As was pointed out, this isn't really a forum for freedom of expression, it's a forum for Telltale's games, and whatever is posted here reflects on Telltale as a company, so we have to abide by the forum guidelines and the Telltale terms of service (which prevents rude, bigoted, and nasty stuff from being posted).
I agree with Blind Sniper that I'd be open for an all encompassing social issues thread staying open, but it would have to have really strict rules for banning for insulting and rude posts (so no insulting terminology for any groups of people (even terms such as immoral or unnatural, or calling someone a bigot, racist, homophobe, etc.), since we've gotten flag notifications in the past for those types… [view original content]
I agree with Cope,
I don't need people to hold my ears and plug them when someone farts. That is just my opinion, and i'm not forcing my views or opinions on others. So relax.
As I explained, we don't flag posts to "censor" opinions - we flag posts to remove posts that are not constructive to civil discussion, be it insults or personal attacks.
Bigoted/discriminatory posts are also liable to be flagged, but if you avoid being discriminatory to traits that are inherent to people (race/gender/sexual preference/etc) we might keep posts up if you express your opinion with the intent of adding to a debate "I personally disagree with X" as opposed to making offensive generalizations like "people who support X are evil scum" or something like that.
Good examples:
"I recognize people can like [insert thing here], but I personally disagree with that mindset."
"Nothing personal against people who like [insert thing here], but I disagree with that mindset for this reason..."
Bad examples:
"People who like this thing/think this thing is good are awful and need to rot in hell! It's just not natural!"
"You like this thing/think this this is good? You're an idiot!"
"There's nothing wrong with liking this thing/thinking this thing is good. Quit insulting people who like this thing and screw off."
Of course, I don't expect people to use that mindset in extreme situations like "I personally disagree with murderers but believe murder is OK" - this is just meant towards discussion of social issues that people have multiple stances on, and not something that most-if-not-all reasonable people will unanimously agree is bad, like murder.
As Jennifer, Warpspeed, and others have said, this is a video game forum and not a bastion of entirely unrestricted free speech. Some moderations choices are made at our discretion, other choices are made by Telltale to keep this a fun and civil place. You guys can discuss pressing issues, but it's asked you do so in a civil manner and try to have constructive discussion. Exchanging ideas and hearing other perspectives is always important for being further educated and broadening your horizons (or reinforcing why you hold an opinion), but as people exchange ideas here, we don't want those exchanges to include personal attacks, bigotry, etc. There are other communities where insults, personal attacks, etc may fly, but we don't want Telltale's forum to be included in on that.
Again, as I mentioned to Blind Sniper, if that is how you are going to moderate, you make is ridiculously easy for someone to get a thread locked if they wish to do so. Instead of punishing those who want to have a reasonable discussion, simply deal with the people who are legitimately being malicious or "trolling".
Part of the problem may be that similar threads in the past were derailed past the point of hoping for civil discussion to be salvaged, but in part, we can try to consider how to more effectively combat people who derail threads.
Jennifer misunderstood part of my post - I didn't want an "all encompassing social issues" thread, but rather the rule set I proposed to be put into place for threads like that in general where we would hand out bans for people who resort to personal attacks in order to keep discussion civil and constructive. We don't want to stymie discussion of important issues, we just ask that people do so civilly. When we lock threads, we typically do so after having left warnings and/or flagged posts in either in the current thread or previous threads that were similar, only for that to have not worked. In the first incarnation of the "Unpopular Opinions" thread, for several weeks we tried doing what you said and handing out individual punishments by flagging posts, banning users, etc on top of leaving open warnings for everyone, but that was not able to promote any civil discussion. Hence, I proposed being more strict with keeping an eye out for personal attacks/bigotry/etc in threads that discuss social issues as an alternative idea.
That thread wasn't fine. It was becoming insulting and just plain vile. It wasn't going anywhere, and it was just going more and more agains… moret the respect rules of the forum guidelines, and against the Telltale terms of service.
And this is where the over sensitivity comes into play, as far as myself and others are concerned. This is the internet. Every now and then someone is going to drop by and say something that someone finds "insulting", or "out of line". As a moderator, you can edit and delete those posts, as well as deal with the person who made those posts, as long as they were legitimately being malicious. There is no need to shut down an entire active discussion at the first sign of someone saying something that you don't like. Again, as I mentioned to Blind Sniper, if that is how you are going to moderate, you make is ridiculously easy for someone to get a thread locked if they wish to do so. Instead of punishing those who w… [view original content]
That is just my opinion, and i'm not forcing my views or opinions on others.
No one here mentioned you but alright. Just saying that some opinions are harmful but those opinions aren't up for me to decide, nor anyone else.
In the end, these forums don't allow unrestricted free speech as per the rules set up by Telltale themselves. Moderators have to follow the Telltale terms of service, and that forbids any post that "includes content that: is patently offensive to the online community, such as content that promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person or invades their privacy."
When posting things with text or images, intention is not always clear, as in person these types of things would come with visual cues from the person who made them to let them know what their intentions are. Online, you only get the text at face value, so they're often taken at face value, especially by those who interpret things literally, or by those who don't speak English as a first language. The thing about text or images is that they are easy to misinterpret, so it's always best to not type or choose an image that is insulting to begin with. The rule of thumb when making a statement around people from a bunch of different cultural groups (even in real life) is that if you use language that you think people might get insulted if you use it, they invariably will.
@Blind_Sniper wrote:
Jennifer misunderstood part of my post - I didn't want an "all encompassing social issues" thread, but rather the rule set I proposed to be put into place for threads like that in general where we would hand out bans for people who resort to personal attacks in order to keep discussion civil and constructive.
I did, and this would require a lot more moderation than I thought before (as it would require moderators editing the first post of any social issues thread to let people know the strict rules that will be enforced inside of these kinds of threads), but I would still be up for considering it as well if people want that to happen rather than to continue to have these types of threads continue to be closed (which they would have to be otherwise, in order to stay within the rules of the Telltale terms of service).
That thread wasn't fine. It was becoming insulting and just plain vile. It wasn't going anywhere, and it was just going more and more agains… moret the respect rules of the forum guidelines, and against the Telltale terms of service.
And this is where the over sensitivity comes into play, as far as myself and others are concerned. This is the internet. Every now and then someone is going to drop by and say something that someone finds "insulting", or "out of line". As a moderator, you can edit and delete those posts, as well as deal with the person who made those posts, as long as they were legitimately being malicious. There is no need to shut down an entire active discussion at the first sign of someone saying something that you don't like. Again, as I mentioned to Blind Sniper, if that is how you are going to moderate, you make is ridiculously easy for someone to get a thread locked if they wish to do so. Instead of punishing those who w… [view original content]
That thread wasn't fine. It was becoming insulting and just plain vile. It wasn't going anywhere, and it was just going more and more agains… moret the respect rules of the forum guidelines, and against the Telltale terms of service.
And this is where the over sensitivity comes into play, as far as myself and others are concerned. This is the internet. Every now and then someone is going to drop by and say something that someone finds "insulting", or "out of line". As a moderator, you can edit and delete those posts, as well as deal with the person who made those posts, as long as they were legitimately being malicious. There is no need to shut down an entire active discussion at the first sign of someone saying something that you don't like. Again, as I mentioned to Blind Sniper, if that is how you are going to moderate, you make is ridiculously easy for someone to get a thread locked if they wish to do so. Instead of punishing those who w… [view original content]
If acted upon, which has been the case with several opinions as of recent.
Again for example, the opinion on Gay marriage. You can think it's wrong, go on ahead, but when you act to get rid of it, it's harmful.
Of course opinions can be harmful. A major catalyst for the Rwandan genocide was a radio station calling Tutsis cockroaches.
In the recent Canadian election, the Conservatives started stoking anti-Muslim sentiment. It was relatively benign, they just wanted to ban Muslim face coverings, but they weren't very careful with the message, and it wasn't long before you started hearing about Muslim women being harassed on the streets. In one case, a pregnant Muslim woman was physically attacked. It wasn't even a blatant message of hate. The subtext was enough to be dangerous.
Censoring an opinion can stop someone from doing too drastic with it. You brought up the Nazis earlier, if the Nazi propaganda was censored then it couldn't escalate into a genocide.
As a user who posted about many controversial subject including feminism. Domestic abuse, Police Brutality, the American military etc I also been banned many times and not once have I felt Moderators restricted me in debating serious issues or unfairly banned me in fact the opposite they took part in many debates I created
Moderators do not get paid to come here they spend their own time to make this place a better place out of the love of this forum and they are HUMAN they are not perfect they make mistakes we do to but they try to make the least amount of mistakes as possible and make this forum the best place it can be and I feel they are doing a fantastic job.
When users posted Clem Porn and Gore when Mod's removed that I saw no threads giving out about their users right to post porn and gore here or hating on Mods for that decision we all knew the forum rules and set the standard that this is a family forum and that sort of stuff should not be here,
Because we cherry pick what is right and what is wrong yes we want a free for all but based on our own standards. Mod's don't follow personal standards they follow forum rules that is their Job we are not immune to that.
That's why I find it strange everyone saying free for all on everything when we all know well if the Mods said one day “you know what I do this for free and get nothing but abuse not worth my time anymore and they take a week’s holiday from here”.
We all know well this place within that week with no rules would be nothing but Gore, Porn and threads hating on Homosexuals. Black people, White cis men, nazism, Porn, Gore no one would even want to come back after an hour we would all be scarred for life XD. I’d called it 4tumblrtale
Rules on this forum are not mean't to oppress but keep this place user friendly a fun place to visit and debate not become like 4chan and attract the wrong people I've been to websites where it is a free for all and the websites are dumps and terrible places full of horrible people that quickly disappear or get removed you can't post a comment without being attacked by twenty users I despise the communities that brings.
I love this place it's full of intelligent, nice people who love telltale games, I love this place as it is Mods can do what they think is best lets keep this place awesome for everyone
Even the threads that got closed, we got pages upon pages of serious debate with feminism. the unpopular thread shows up again every week with a different name and we get pages upon pages of serious debate before someone goes too far not the end of the world only a thread ffs they are going to be plenty more in the future.
We all know certain topics are not to discussed it is against the forum rules and not allowing homophobic comments on a telltale forum im ok with Personally I agree with Mod's closing that thread over homophobic comments piss off to 4chan or other websites this is a telltale forum where we accept all sexualities call me old fashioned but hating on Mod's for closing a thread over homophobic comments seems wrong to me we all know well at this point not to debate that here there are plenty of other websites to do that it only reflects badly on us as a community and as users to encourage homophobic comments here that's my personal opinion. This is a telltale forum with guidelines and rules
If this means we are going to lose a few pissed off homophobic users from here I’ll still sleep great tonight even better win-win for me tbh
Keep in mind that the Nazi's also censored opposition. If people in power had stood up to the Nazi's, then would propaganda have even worked?
That's why I'm for everyone being held accountable for what they say. For everyone to be able to state their opinion, but not be immune from criticism.
Censoring an opinion can stop someone from doing too drastic with it. You brought up the Nazis earlier, if the Nazi propaganda was censored then it couldn't escalate into a genocide.
Yet if someone's opinion hurts someone else? Would you be okay with allowing that? Being partially responsible for the well being of someone else being hurt or killed just because you didn't want to hurt someone's free speech.
I'm all up for people stating whatever they want, usually, until it hurts people or has been hurting people. We have people of all kinds here, every religion, gender, sexual orientation, if the Mods need to delete a few posts or close a few threads to keep the peace, it's good. In fact, I didn't hear anyone complaining when the mods closed the thread about someone denying the holocaust.
Keep in mind that the Nazi's also censored opposition. If people in power had stood up to the Nazi's, then would propaganda have even worked… more?
That's why I'm for everyone being held accountable for what they say. For everyone to be able to state their opinion, but not be immune from criticism.
In the end, these forums don't allow unrestricted free speech as per the rules set up by Telltale themselves. Moderators have to follow the Telltale terms of service, and that forbids any post that "includes content that: is patently offensive to the online community, such as content that promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person or invades their privacy."
I kind of touched on this in my last post. Of course I wouldn't want to allow any of that stuff either, but there have been times where people have simply been too sensitive to a difference in opinion, to the extent that they want to label something as "racism", "sexism", "bigotry", when there isn't actually necessarily a reason to do that. And again, even in the cases where someone does in fact say something terrible/malicious, that person can simply be dealt with instead of taking it out on everyone involved with the thread, especially if there is good discussion taking place (which there has been). People also do not even have to engage in these topics to begin with, as I mentioned in my last post. No one is forcing them to expose themselves to this stuff.
When posting things with text or images, intention is not always clear, as in person these types of things would come with visual cues from the person who made them to let them know what their intentions are. Online, you only get the text at face value, so they're often taken at face value, especially by those who interpret things literally, or by those who don't speak English as a first language. The thing about text or images is that they are easy to misinterpret, so it's always best to not type or choose an image that is insulting to begin with. The rule of thumb when making a statement around people from a bunch of different cultural groups (even in real life) is that if you use language that you think people might get insulted if you use it, they invariably will.
This is honestly going off on a tangent, and I'm not advocating for people to be insulting anyway. Obviously people should try and be clear when trying to convey a point, that should go without saying, regardless of the topic being discussed.
I would still be up for considering it as well if people want that to happen rather than to continue to have these types of threads continue to be closed (which they would have to be otherwise, in order to stay within the rules of the Telltale terms of service).
That's the thing here. These threads don't have to be closed. If the thread itself is within the rules, it doesn't have to be closed simply because some random asshole dropped by and said something terrible. If that same asshole dropped by a thread outside of the Telltale Talk section and said something blatantly malicious, that thread would not be closed, and instead the person would just be dealt with 1on1, as they should be. It doesn't make sense to close down an entire thread if 90% of the conversation going on in it is good, mostly civil discussion. And again, when looking at it objectively, that has typically been the case.
As a side note here, is it reasonable to ask that moderators give a specific example as to why they feel the need to close a thread in the future? Personally, I think that would help with things, and should be easy enough to do if there is actually a legitimate reason to close a thread.
In the end, these forums don't allow unrestricted free speech as per the rules set up by Telltale themselves. Moderators have to follow the… more Telltale terms of service, and that forbids any post that "includes content that: is patently offensive to the online community, such as content that promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person or invades their privacy."
When posting things with text or images, intention is not always clear, as in person these types of things would come with visual cues from the person who made them to let them know what their intentions are. Online, you only get the text at face value, so they're often taken at face value, especially by those who interpret things literally, or by those who don't speak English as a first language. The thing about text or images is that they are easy to misinterpret, so it's always b… [view original content]
The thing is it's not just one or two posts of people who make a post before it gets closed, it's a lot of posts. Sometimes those posts have insulting wording like I mentioned above that can be interpreted as being insulting by people who don't speak English as a first language or those who interpret things literally (like saying everyone who does a certain act is immoral or unnatural, rather than just stating an opinion without calling making insulting labels about people from other cultures, or calling someone a bigot, racist, or homophobe for their views). But often, people don't see the insulting posts because they are flagged and removed from public view. It's only after tons of insulting posts are made, flagged and removed or not, that we close the threads. And these types of insulting posts pile up a lot in threads about controversial social issues.
If we were to agree to make these threads with these kind of strict rules in place, it would be to try to stop these threads from getting tons of comments of this kind in the first place (since the first post in any thread like this would spell out specifically that posts like this will be removed and bans will be made). If it works, great, I'd be happy to let a thread like that continue under those circumstances. But, it has to be that way, as like I said, no thread on the forum relating to controversial social issues has ever went without having tons of posts with insulting terminology for a long period of time, and a serious change in moderation really has to take place if people want those types of threads to keep going without being closed.
@Belan wrote:
As a side note here, is it reasonable to ask that moderators give a specific example as to why they feel the need to close a thread in the future? Personally, I think that would help with things, and should be easy enough to do if there is actually a legitimate reason to close a thread.
It's not right to single out people, by giving specific examples of people who have broken the rules, especially if those examples have been removed from public viewing (which would fall under privacy rights, which is akin to the reason why we don't allow discussion of banned members). People need to realize that moderators don't close threads because they don't agree with the comments that are being made. A thread is never closed without a legitimate reason. We close the threads because multiple posts in the threads (or in very rare instances, the threads themselves) are breaking the rules of the forum guidelines or the Telltale terms of service.
In the end, these forums don't allow unrestricted free speech as per the rules set up by Telltale themselves. Moderators have to follow the … moreTelltale terms of service, and that forbids any post that "includes content that: is patently offensive to the online community, such as content that promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person or invades their privacy."
I kind of touched on this in my last post. Of course I wouldn't want to allow any of that stuff either, but there have been times where people have simply been too sensitive to a difference in opinion, to the extent that they want to label something as "racism", "sexism", "bigotry", when there isn't actually necessarily a reason to do that. And again, even in the cases where someone does in fact say something terrible/malicious, that person can simply be dealt with instead of taki… [view original content]
While I can't give an example of the content of inappropriate posts, I can give you an idea of what we have to deal with on the moderation side of things. This is a screenshot from an actual problematic thread that received a lot of flags and was reported, both by regular users and among the moderation team (the names and icons of the posters in question have been removed, as have posts that weren't flagged, for privacy reasons): Also, note that flagging removes all threaded posts underneath the flagged post, so it's likely that there are even more problematic posts posted after the initial post that's been flagged.
Regular users don't see that, as the forum just doesn't show the posts at all to people without moderator privileges. But that's what the moderators have to deal with in heated threads. The stricter moderation rules that Blind Sniper suggested would hopefully put a stop to that, as otherwise, these types of threads would have to continue to be closed when they get past that point.
The thing is it's not just one or two posts of people who make a post before it gets closed, it's a lot of posts. Sometimes those posts hav… moree insulting wording like I mentioned above that can be interpreted as being insulting by people who don't speak English as a first language or those who interpret things literally (like saying everyone who does a certain act is immoral or unnatural, rather than just stating an opinion without calling making insulting labels about people from other cultures, or calling someone a bigot, racist, or homophobe for their views). But often, people don't see the insulting posts because they are flagged and removed from public view. It's only after tons of insulting posts are made, flagged and removed or not, that we close the threads. And these types of insulting posts pile up a lot in threads about controversial social issues.
If we were to agree to make these threads with these kind of strict rules in pla… [view original content]
Comments
The feminist post will never work because people fail to understand the problem is not black and white. There is no right answer you can not say that all feminism is dumb because it's simply not true but saying that western feminism is way too radical is no understatement. If feminism would focus on parts of the world where women are seens as objects and their only role is to have children maybe we could have progress in this debate.
Ah, we're comparing people to Nazis here again. Love it when every argument comes down to that.
I'm comparing the practice of censoring opinions that are unpopular to what was done by the Nazis. I'm not comparing those people to Nazis. I'm just saying that the censoring of opinions is the same.
Going to be honest, it really isn't. Usually don't see SJW or political correctness people attacking physically and sometimes killing people who disagree with them. The Nazi's didn't just "Ban" people or push them away from certain things, while that was a part of their plan, the Nazis imprisoned people in concentration camps and murdered them. When people start doing that again, then you can use your Nazi argument, until then it sounds really crazy.
Still the same principle behind it, regardless of the means. While SJW's don't take it to the extremes that the Nazis did, the goal is still the same; to prevent criticism.
Not exactly. However, let's face it, if anyone wants to have power wouldn't they try and prevent criticism? All major powers in the world have done it...Christianity, Islam, Communists, even Capitalists. Everyone who wants to keep power has to prevent issues that jeopardize their power.
It's nothing new, and it will always be that way.
Exactly, and it's bullshit that people shouldn't get away with.
Yet that's where you mess up, you say that you support all kinds of free speech but saying that the opinions like Kenny/Lee are supporting (Gay rights specifically) are being censored is kinda wrong since that free speech limits other free speech and it keeps going. If you try to complain about the SJWs and progressives, you risk censoring them and therefore doing another circle.
The best thing is to get over it, you're not going to solve anything, let these things fall apart by themselves, it always happens.
I think you've missed the point. Nobody should be censoring anybody. Anybody should be able to say and criticize whatever they want, and nobody should be exempt from mature, reasonable criticism.
That thread wasn't fine. It was becoming insulting and just plain vile. It wasn't going anywhere, and it was just going more and more against the respect rules of the forum guidelines, and against the Telltale terms of service.
As was pointed out, this isn't really a forum for freedom of expression, it's a forum for Telltale's games, and whatever is posted here reflects on Telltale as a company, so we have to abide by the forum guidelines and the Telltale terms of service (which prevents rude, bigoted, and nasty stuff from being posted).
I agree with Blind Sniper that I'd be open for an all encompassing social issues thread staying open, but it would have to have really strict rules for banning for insulting and rude posts (so no insulting terminology for any groups of people (even terms such as immoral or unnatural, or calling someone a bigot, racist, homophobe, etc.), since we've gotten flag notifications in the past for those types of words and I agree with those flags as that's insulting an individual or an entire group of people and is not being respectful). It is possible to debate without using those terms (and much worse ones), but no thread on these forums related to controversial social issues has ever done so, at least not for a long period of time.
[Blind Sniper edit: To clarify, I meant applying a general, more strict rule set to any thread that discusses social issues that could attract arguments and personal attacks - not an individual, all encompassing thread.]
There's a big difference between saying "I am against this social issue because of my religion, so here's what my religious text states about the subject" and "every one who participates in this social issue is immoral". The first is stating your stance on the issue. The second is using weasel words that just cause anger as it uses an insult towards an entire group of people. The same goes with people responding. There's a big difference between "I don't agree with your religion's stance, here's why" and "you are a bigot" or "all people from your religion are bigots". The first is stating your stance on the issue, and the second is an insult to a person or a group of people. And that won't be accepted. Since we have people on this forum of all backgrounds, posting in an insulting way, either towards a person directly, or towards any group of people goes against the Telltale terms of use and forum guidelines in regards to respect and not making insulting posts.
If anyone's open to a thread with strict rules that can lead to removal of posts with insulting terminology immediately and lead to temporary bans without warnings (since the thread itself would be the warning as we'd let people know that we were going to do so in the first post of the thread), I'd be more than open to having a thread like that. But it has to be under those conditions, because in the end the moderators have to follow the policies laid out by the Telltale staff, and their terms of service would forbid heated threads such as these to keep going if it continued to have posts with disrespectful language.
If you're talking about censorship, you're talking about free speech.
Rhey are often used in reference to each other, but they are most definitely separate.
Obviously they're separate, they aren't the same thing. But discussion of censorship only works when considering rights to freedom of speech, action or expression, as censorship is defined in those terms.
If you're looking at it in the context of legal rights to freedom of speech, sure. Belan wasn't.
My original comment is sort of indirectly tied to the idea of free speech, but that isn't the point I was trying to make. I wasn't talking about it in a legal sense, which is what you were depicting in the comic, picture, or whatever it is that you posted. I wasn't making a case for the 1st amendment. I was simply asking for people to be less sensitive, and to be more objective in dealing with a difference in opinion.
No, I think you did. Someone will always be censored, you can't stop it and sometimes it's for the better.
And that's not right. Noone should be censored.
Super hypocritical coming from you but I'll let that end there.
People don't want their own opinions to be censored, however do you know how many people who talk about free speech don't care if someone else's opinion, who they don't like, gets censored? It's a common thing.
So whats been going on? It looks like drama that has nothing to do with me
.
I agree with Cope,
I don't need people to hold my ears and plug them when someone farts. That is just my opinion, and i'm not forcing my views or opinions on others. So relax.
And this is where the over sensitivity comes into play, as far as myself and others are concerned. This is the internet. Every now and then someone is going to drop by and say something that someone finds "insulting", or "out of line". As a moderator, you can edit and delete those posts, as well as deal with the person who made those posts, as long as they were legitimately being malicious. There is no need to shut down an entire active discussion at the first sign of someone saying something that you don't like. Again, as I mentioned to Blind Sniper, if that is how you are going to moderate, you make is ridiculously easy for someone to get a thread locked if they wish to do so. Instead of punishing those who want to have a reasonable discussion, simply deal with the people who are legitimately being malicious or "trolling". In the case of the thread in question, the very vast majority of the thread was reasonable. In your initial reasoning for closing the thread, you didn't even make mention of of the one supposed out of line comment that someone had quoted from an entirely different website to begin with.. not to mention that said person only quoted it to laugh at it. Again, it was just one completely random comment. It could have easily been deleted, and the people who wished to have intelligent, reasonable conversation could have been left to do so. Just being truthful of my opinion of the matter, I think you closed the topic simply because you did not like what was being discussed. I see no other rational reason for why the topic was so abruptly put to a screeching halt when there were other courses of action that could have been taken, as is done in plenty of other threads. This instance is sort of a prime example of why there have been forum members that have been confused/irritated by the number of threads that end up getting closed.
Then perhaps we should just totally remove the entirety of the "Telltale Talk" section of the forum, because the vast majority of the discussion there is not about Telltale's games. Many users, such as myself, have been here for a decent chunk of time now, and we like to discuss with one another about things outside of Telltale's games. I think that's a given, and a reason why this section of the forum even exists in the first place.
Obviously Telltale (and any other company) wants to have a good environment for discussion, but that can still be the case while talking about "sensitive" topics. If people want to strictly stick to talking about Telltale's games, there are obviously several sections for that. It also should go without saying that someone does not need to venture into a topic that they do not want to partake in. As long as people are being civil and rational, there is no reason to censor them, 100% regardless of what topic they may be posting on, be it a take on abortion or an opinion about a video game character.
I don't think that's the best thing to do, for reasons I just described. Again, the Telltale Talk section has been full of these types of conversations. If someone doesn't want to engage in those conversations, it's as simple as that person not clicking on a topic that they do not want to be involved in. That just seems like common sense. No one is forcing someone to read or participate in something that they aren't comfortable engaging in. It seems pretty unfair to try and cram everything into one thread considering all this, and given how things have been moderated lately, it wouldn't be surprising if that one thread would end up getting locked anyway, which would obviously defeat the purpose.
Again, this goes back to over sensitivity. Saying that you think that something is immoral is not necessarily rude. It's a reasonable opinion, and can absolutely be expressed in a civil, well intending manner. If the person in question is obviously not being malicious, then banning them is a little ridiculous. Kenny/Lee, for example, has been banned for expressing his opinions on morality, and many of us believe that to be beyond ridiculous. If you are familiar with his posting at all, it is blatantly obvious that he is a good guy and means well. Hell, he is far more civil than posters who directly respond to and oppose his opinions.. and yet he is the one who ends up getting banned. It makes no sense. People need to develop a thicker skin, and learn to understand that not all people think the same way. That doesn't mean others that have different opinions are bad people, or that they have any bad intent what so ever. It would be great if we could all be mature enough to understand these things, and have open, objective conversations. For example, I find abortion to be pretty monstrous stuff, but I don't necessarily find people who support abortion to be bad people (I have friends and family who support abortion), nor do I think those people should have their opinions censored. It's important to be able to discuss these things, and not be ridiculously over sensitive while doing so.
I agree that people should not directly insult someone as a response to their opinion, while also keeping in mind the actual intentions of the poster. That said, as I have said before, people who cross that line can be dealt with 1on1, just as they are in any other thread. An entire conversation doesn't have to be put to a screeching halt because someone inevitably gets overheated and says something a little edgy. People are very passionate about these subjects, and passionate responses ultimately go with the territory. It happens. That's why we have moderators. Its not fair that one, two, or even three people stepping out of line should ruin the discussion for those that are staying in bounds. And even then, many of us could stand to grow thicker skin, as I have already said. People get heated and sometimes say things that they are better off not saying. That's life. Best we all get used to it, and learn how to handle it in a realistic fashion.
Anyway, this ended up being a bit of a long post. Just wanted to express where myself and others are coming from. I may or may not end up elaborating further, as it's pretty clear how I feel about this.
No one here mentioned you but alright. Just saying that some opinions are harmful but those opinions aren't up for me to decide, nor anyone else.
As I explained, we don't flag posts to "censor" opinions - we flag posts to remove posts that are not constructive to civil discussion, be it insults or personal attacks.
Bigoted/discriminatory posts are also liable to be flagged, but if you avoid being discriminatory to traits that are inherent to people (race/gender/sexual preference/etc) we might keep posts up if you express your opinion with the intent of adding to a debate "I personally disagree with X" as opposed to making offensive generalizations like "people who support X are evil scum" or something like that.
Good examples:
Bad examples:
Of course, I don't expect people to use that mindset in extreme situations like "I personally disagree with murderers but believe murder is OK" - this is just meant towards discussion of social issues that people have multiple stances on, and not something that most-if-not-all reasonable people will unanimously agree is bad, like murder.
As Jennifer, Warpspeed, and others have said, this is a video game forum and not a bastion of entirely unrestricted free speech. Some moderations choices are made at our discretion, other choices are made by Telltale to keep this a fun and civil place. You guys can discuss pressing issues, but it's asked you do so in a civil manner and try to have constructive discussion. Exchanging ideas and hearing other perspectives is always important for being further educated and broadening your horizons (or reinforcing why you hold an opinion), but as people exchange ideas here, we don't want those exchanges to include personal attacks, bigotry, etc. There are other communities where insults, personal attacks, etc may fly, but we don't want Telltale's forum to be included in on that.
Part of the problem may be that similar threads in the past were derailed past the point of hoping for civil discussion to be salvaged, but in part, we can try to consider how to more effectively combat people who derail threads.
Jennifer misunderstood part of my post - I didn't want an "all encompassing social issues" thread, but rather the rule set I proposed to be put into place for threads like that in general where we would hand out bans for people who resort to personal attacks in order to keep discussion civil and constructive. We don't want to stymie discussion of important issues, we just ask that people do so civilly. When we lock threads, we typically do so after having left warnings and/or flagged posts in either in the current thread or previous threads that were similar, only for that to have not worked. In the first incarnation of the "Unpopular Opinions" thread, for several weeks we tried doing what you said and handing out individual punishments by flagging posts, banning users, etc on top of leaving open warnings for everyone, but that was not able to promote any civil discussion. Hence, I proposed being more strict with keeping an eye out for personal attacks/bigotry/etc in threads that discuss social issues as an alternative idea.
And I'm sure you agree that sexist/racist speech shouldn't be censored either. Good to know we agree on that.
How can an opinion be harmful?
If acted upon, which has been the case with several opinions as of recent.
Again for example, the opinion on Gay marriage. You can think it's wrong, go on ahead, but when you act to get rid of it, it's harmful.
In the end, these forums don't allow unrestricted free speech as per the rules set up by Telltale themselves. Moderators have to follow the Telltale terms of service, and that forbids any post that "includes content that: is patently offensive to the online community, such as content that promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person or invades their privacy."
When posting things with text or images, intention is not always clear, as in person these types of things would come with visual cues from the person who made them to let them know what their intentions are. Online, you only get the text at face value, so they're often taken at face value, especially by those who interpret things literally, or by those who don't speak English as a first language. The thing about text or images is that they are easy to misinterpret, so it's always best to not type or choose an image that is insulting to begin with. The rule of thumb when making a statement around people from a bunch of different cultural groups (even in real life) is that if you use language that you think people might get insulted if you use it, they invariably will.
I did, and this would require a lot more moderation than I thought before (as it would require moderators editing the first post of any social issues thread to let people know the strict rules that will be enforced inside of these kinds of threads), but I would still be up for considering it as well if people want that to happen rather than to continue to have these types of threads continue to be closed (which they would have to be otherwise, in order to stay within the rules of the Telltale terms of service).
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Censoring an opinion won't stop someone from acting on it.
Of course opinions can be harmful. A major catalyst for the Rwandan genocide was a radio station calling Tutsis cockroaches.
In the recent Canadian election, the Conservatives started stoking anti-Muslim sentiment. It was relatively benign, they just wanted to ban Muslim face coverings, but they weren't very careful with the message, and it wasn't long before you started hearing about Muslim women being harassed on the streets. In one case, a pregnant Muslim woman was physically attacked. It wasn't even a blatant message of hate. The subtext was enough to be dangerous.
Censoring an opinion can stop someone from doing too drastic with it. You brought up the Nazis earlier, if the Nazi propaganda was censored then it couldn't escalate into a genocide.
As a user who posted about many controversial subject including feminism. Domestic abuse, Police Brutality, the American military etc I also been banned many times and not once have I felt Moderators restricted me in debating serious issues or unfairly banned me in fact the opposite they took part in many debates I created
Moderators do not get paid to come here they spend their own time to make this place a better place out of the love of this forum and they are HUMAN they are not perfect they make mistakes we do to but they try to make the least amount of mistakes as possible and make this forum the best place it can be and I feel they are doing a fantastic job.
When users posted Clem Porn and Gore when Mod's removed that I saw no threads giving out about their users right to post porn and gore here or hating on Mods for that decision we all knew the forum rules and set the standard that this is a family forum and that sort of stuff should not be here,
Because we cherry pick what is right and what is wrong yes we want a free for all but based on our own standards. Mod's don't follow personal standards they follow forum rules that is their Job we are not immune to that.
That's why I find it strange everyone saying free for all on everything when we all know well if the Mods said one day “you know what I do this for free and get nothing but abuse not worth my time anymore and they take a week’s holiday from here”.
We all know well this place within that week with no rules would be nothing but Gore, Porn and threads hating on Homosexuals. Black people, White cis men, nazism, Porn, Gore no one would even want to come back after an hour we would all be scarred for life XD. I’d called it 4tumblrtale
Rules on this forum are not mean't to oppress but keep this place user friendly a fun place to visit and debate not become like 4chan and attract the wrong people I've been to websites where it is a free for all and the websites are dumps and terrible places full of horrible people that quickly disappear or get removed you can't post a comment without being attacked by twenty users I despise the communities that brings.
I love this place it's full of intelligent, nice people who love telltale games, I love this place as it is Mods can do what they think is best lets keep this place awesome for everyone
Even the threads that got closed, we got pages upon pages of serious debate with feminism. the unpopular thread shows up again every week with a different name and we get pages upon pages of serious debate before someone goes too far not the end of the world only a thread ffs they are going to be plenty more in the future.
We all know certain topics are not to discussed it is against the forum rules and not allowing homophobic comments on a telltale forum im ok with Personally I agree with Mod's closing that thread over homophobic comments piss off to 4chan or other websites this is a telltale forum where we accept all sexualities call me old fashioned but hating on Mod's for closing a thread over homophobic comments seems wrong to me we all know well at this point not to debate that here there are plenty of other websites to do that it only reflects badly on us as a community and as users to encourage homophobic comments here that's my personal opinion. This is a telltale forum with guidelines and rules
If this means we are going to lose a few pissed off homophobic users from here I’ll still sleep great tonight even better win-win for me tbh
Keep in mind that the Nazi's also censored opposition. If people in power had stood up to the Nazi's, then would propaganda have even worked?
That's why I'm for everyone being held accountable for what they say. For everyone to be able to state their opinion, but not be immune from criticism.
Yet if someone's opinion hurts someone else? Would you be okay with allowing that? Being partially responsible for the well being of someone else being hurt or killed just because you didn't want to hurt someone's free speech.
I'm all up for people stating whatever they want, usually, until it hurts people or has been hurting people. We have people of all kinds here, every religion, gender, sexual orientation, if the Mods need to delete a few posts or close a few threads to keep the peace, it's good. In fact, I didn't hear anyone complaining when the mods closed the thread about someone denying the holocaust.
I kind of touched on this in my last post. Of course I wouldn't want to allow any of that stuff either, but there have been times where people have simply been too sensitive to a difference in opinion, to the extent that they want to label something as "racism", "sexism", "bigotry", when there isn't actually necessarily a reason to do that. And again, even in the cases where someone does in fact say something terrible/malicious, that person can simply be dealt with instead of taking it out on everyone involved with the thread, especially if there is good discussion taking place (which there has been). People also do not even have to engage in these topics to begin with, as I mentioned in my last post. No one is forcing them to expose themselves to this stuff.
This is honestly going off on a tangent, and I'm not advocating for people to be insulting anyway. Obviously people should try and be clear when trying to convey a point, that should go without saying, regardless of the topic being discussed.
That's the thing here. These threads don't have to be closed. If the thread itself is within the rules, it doesn't have to be closed simply because some random asshole dropped by and said something terrible. If that same asshole dropped by a thread outside of the Telltale Talk section and said something blatantly malicious, that thread would not be closed, and instead the person would just be dealt with 1on1, as they should be. It doesn't make sense to close down an entire thread if 90% of the conversation going on in it is good, mostly civil discussion. And again, when looking at it objectively, that has typically been the case.
As a side note here, is it reasonable to ask that moderators give a specific example as to why they feel the need to close a thread in the future? Personally, I think that would help with things, and should be easy enough to do if there is actually a legitimate reason to close a thread.
The thing is it's not just one or two posts of people who make a post before it gets closed, it's a lot of posts. Sometimes those posts have insulting wording like I mentioned above that can be interpreted as being insulting by people who don't speak English as a first language or those who interpret things literally (like saying everyone who does a certain act is immoral or unnatural, rather than just stating an opinion without calling making insulting labels about people from other cultures, or calling someone a bigot, racist, or homophobe for their views). But often, people don't see the insulting posts because they are flagged and removed from public view. It's only after tons of insulting posts are made, flagged and removed or not, that we close the threads. And these types of insulting posts pile up a lot in threads about controversial social issues.
If we were to agree to make these threads with these kind of strict rules in place, it would be to try to stop these threads from getting tons of comments of this kind in the first place (since the first post in any thread like this would spell out specifically that posts like this will be removed and bans will be made). If it works, great, I'd be happy to let a thread like that continue under those circumstances. But, it has to be that way, as like I said, no thread on the forum relating to controversial social issues has ever went without having tons of posts with insulting terminology for a long period of time, and a serious change in moderation really has to take place if people want those types of threads to keep going without being closed.
It's not right to single out people, by giving specific examples of people who have broken the rules, especially if those examples have been removed from public viewing (which would fall under privacy rights, which is akin to the reason why we don't allow discussion of banned members). People need to realize that moderators don't close threads because they don't agree with the comments that are being made. A thread is never closed without a legitimate reason. We close the threads because multiple posts in the threads (or in very rare instances, the threads themselves) are breaking the rules of the forum guidelines or the Telltale terms of service.
Your avatar is scary and you are hereby ordered to change it. G'day.
It's Vaughn, how is he scary?
While I can't give an example of the content of inappropriate posts, I can give you an idea of what we have to deal with on the moderation side of things. This is a screenshot from an actual problematic thread that received a lot of flags and was reported, both by regular users and among the moderation team (the names and icons of the posters in question have been removed, as have posts that weren't flagged, for privacy reasons): Also, note that flagging removes all threaded posts underneath the flagged post, so it's likely that there are even more problematic posts posted after the initial post that's been flagged.
Regular users don't see that, as the forum just doesn't show the posts at all to people without moderator privileges. But that's what the moderators have to deal with in heated threads. The stricter moderation rules that Blind Sniper suggested would hopefully put a stop to that, as otherwise, these types of threads would have to continue to be closed when they get past that point.