what @Still_not_bitten said there are always the one who rule and those who follow, Like Marx said the struggle of classes, Slave owners vs Slaves, nobility vs peasants, Bourgeoisie vs workers ect. You can't chagne that. It's how all of our cultures work no matter how they deny it. There's always a ruling class and the servants class regardless how you name it
What. The. Fuck.
Le Pen is someone who is against freedom of speech; we're talking about someone who is from the extreme right and talked… more about ending tv journal like Le petit Journal in a whisper.
Left against freedom of speech? First there is no such thing about left, seeing the government there isn't leftish but applying a right policy.
Secondly, they have many faults, but against freedom of speech? No. Basically no; preferring a extrem right party over a pseudo leftish one because "muh freedom of speech is oppressed" is pure non sense.
Also I thought you were living in Africa and praised Capitalism/America.
Once again, you're strawmanning us all as authoritarian Marxists who want to maintain a dominant state, which we're not. The capitalist hierarchy was forced on us when "private-property" norms were developed, people had their autonomous means of production taken away, and were forced to sell their labor to the privileged classes (usually the old nobles from before). Nothing natural about that.
Also, I'd call into question your point about the DPRK. North Korea never had worker autonomy to begin with. They started out as a Stalinist dictatorship with a clearly defined "red bourgeoisie". Red Fascist states like the DPRK and Soviet Union demonstrate that Socialism and Statism are incompatible, not that a society without bourgeoisie isn't possible.
Workplace democracy can be successful. During the Spanish Civil War the anarchist CNT-FAI drove away the bosses and managed to both feed a large part of Republican Spain and keep a war economy running right up until the Stalinists took over (and subsequently ran the economy into the ground). In fact, innovation thrived because workers no longer had to fear being made obsolete by new technologies and therefore, didn't resist progress,
There will always be people on top and people on the bottom, its the nature of every individual to seek supremacy. It can be channeled for t… morehe benefit of most or for the benefit of few (like in North Korea). If you get rid of "bourgeoisie" you will have a new class of power. In soviet system they where called apartchniks (people of the state apparatus) those who can access state reasources easily and grab them for personal benefit. Thats what you will get.
Strong state yet the one that do not interfere into its citizens life too much (in amount of regulations of daily life stuff). Absolute free… moredom of speech, f**k political correctness.
Semi-conservative, since I don't believe in God yet I came to conclusion that church is the shield and sword of my people's culture despite having numerous flaws that needs to be addressed. Capitalism all the way since it's the best working system in my opinion. socializm limited to the very nessesary minimum you don't work you don't eat as a general rule. Anti-migrant, Anti-islam, anti-EU.
Have nothing against Gay or Lesbian people being married but I'm against adoption for those people. LGBT activists, 3rd wave feminist, Black Lives Matter people royaly piss me off as well as all those who preach ,,tolerance" multi-kultural ideology.
I was talking about France more than Europa since you were talking about Le Pen. For example I did not implied that Hungary was pro freedom of speech.
For Cologne as I remember it was previous members of the immigration, not the ones coming this last year.
But yes, putting a blank about it is a shame. Still, if they were against freedom of speech, you just wouldn't hear of it.
Believe I don't like Le Pen (she is way too friendly with Russia). So this isn't suppression of freedom of speech?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fabio-bolzonar/silence-reigns-in-cologne_b_8990566.html
Whereever you look there is always hirachy of power. You might find the most remote village on this planet and there will be a leader on top who will get the best things they have in that particular micro model of society. Class is part of a human nature. Thats why meritocracy works.
Once again, you're strawmanning us all as authoritarian Marxists who want to maintain a dominant state, which we're not. The capitalist hie… morerarchy was forced on us when "private-property" norms were developed, people had their autonomous means of production taken away, and were forced to sell their labor to the privileged classes (usually the old nobles from before). Nothing natural about that.
Also, I'd call into question your point about the DPRK. North Korea never had worker autonomy to begin with. They started out as a Stalinist dictatorship with a clearly defined "red bourgeoisie". Red Fascist states like the DPRK and Soviet Union demonstrate that Socialism and Statism are incompatible, not that a society without bourgeoisie isn't possible.
Workplace democracy can be successful. During the Spanish Civil War the anarchist CNT-FAI drove away the bosses and managed to both feed a large part of Republican Spain and keep a war econ… [view original content]
And in a heterosexual family where the male and female have more feminine traits, should the children produced be removed from the grounds on the notion that they need to be exposed to a larger amount of masculine traits at home?
EDIT: And what if the homosexual couple display both feminine and masculine traits, would it be acceptable then? Does the notion of the child being exposed to both sets of traits outside of the home on a daily basis negate your rational? What do you classify as the correct dosage of both masculine and feminine traits? What do you classify as a male trait that a female cannot instill in their children, and what do you classify as a female trait that a male cannot instill in their children?
For Cologne as I remember it was previous members of the immigration, not the ones coming this last year. But yes, putting a blank about it is a shame. Still, if they were against freedom of speech, you just wouldn't hear of it.
What previous immigration? it's still the same immigration just after winter break. Also that was the idea to keep it undercover but it was simply just too big to hide...
I was talking about France more than Europa since you were talking about Le Pen. For example I did not implied that Hungary was pro freedom … moreof speech.
For Cologne as I remember it was previous members of the immigration, not the ones coming this last year.
But yes, putting a blank about it is a shame. Still, if they were against freedom of speech, you just wouldn't hear of it.
And in a heterosexual family where the male and female have more feminine traits, should the children produced be removed from the grounds o… moren the notion that they need to be exposed to a larger amount of masculine traits at home?
EDIT: And what if the homosexual couple display both feminine and masculine traits, would it be acceptable then? Does the notion of the child being exposed to both sets of traits outside of the home on a daily basis negate your rational? What do you classify as the correct dosage of both masculine and feminine traits? What do you classify as a male trait that a female cannot instill in their children, and what do you classify as a female trait that a male cannot instill in their children?
Some of them had asyluum seeker documents when arrested. Nobody will ever say to you that they are against freedom of speech. North Korea officially is a democratic country for the people (DPRK). The left is inherently against freedom of speech, they will put some spin on it, you can't say that or this because that might cause tension in some minority community they themselfs imported. You know like all proper communists they will oppress people for their own good so to say.
I was talking about France more than Europa since you were talking about Le Pen. For example I did not implied that Hungary was pro freedom … moreof speech.
For Cologne as I remember it was previous members of the immigration, not the ones coming this last year.
But yes, putting a blank about it is a shame. Still, if they were against freedom of speech, you just wouldn't hear of it.
No, because it would be saying something as similar as the earth is flat or that after night there's no day. Don't go denying something that was here from the beginning of our species.
Because of just one case in a country you say freedom of speech is fucked in all UE (since when Merkel is from left btw? She makes a compromise with others politics) and you praise extrem right, a regim who don't care about freedom of speech at all?
If it was a North Korean country (the comparison is just ridiculous) they would put in jail those girls so no one complains about it. In a case like that, freedom of speech would be abolished.
Some of them had asyluum seeker documents when arrested. Nobody will ever say to you that they are against freedom of speech. North Korea of… moreficially is a democratic country for the people (DPRK). The left is inherently against freedom of speech, they will put some spin on it, you can't say that or this because that might cause tension in some minority community they themselfs imported. You know like all proper communists they will oppress people for their own good so to say.
Human nature isn't a constant, it adapts to experciences, environment and social conditioning. While there is hierarchy in tribal villages, there is also often a gift economy in which people take and give items on an "as-needed/wanted" basis, rather than a formalized system of trading. They also own their own means of self-sufficiency and the chief has much less control over their labor and lives. This is a far cry from our system in which the bourgeoisie have direct control over most aspects of our lives and everything, even land, has been commodified. There are also tribes that eschewed hierarchy altogether (I can direct you to a resource).
If hierarchy is natural, why do so many people dislike it? We obey authority for many reasons, but not because we enjoy it. What other human instinct workers like that? Do we eat because the system forces us to? No. Do we fuck because the system forces us to? Nope.
I'll tell you what, if there's a successful Anarchist revolution and the bourgeoisie re-emerges, I will happily concede my point.
Whereever you look there is always hirachy of power. You might find the most remote village on this planet and there will be a leader on top… more who will get the best things they have in that particular micro model of society. Class is part of a human nature. Thats why meritocracy works.
You want anarchy, have a safe trip to Somalia a land that has no functioning goverment or buegeoise for the last 30 years. Also the burgeoise emerged from the soviet population after collapse of communism.
Human nature isn't a constant, it adapts to experciences, environment and social conditioning. While there is hierarchy in tribal villages,… more there is also often a gift economy in which people take and give items on an "as-needed/wanted" basis, rather than a formalized system of trading. They also own their own means of self-sufficiency and the chief has much less control over their labor and lives. This is a far cry from our system in which the bourgeoisie have direct control over most aspects of our lives and everything, even land, has been commodified. There are also tribes that eschewed hierarchy altogether (I can direct you to a resource).
If hierarchy is natural, why do so many people dislike it? We obey authority for many reasons, but not because we enjoy it. What other human instinct workers like that? Do we eat because the system forces us to? No. Do we fuck because the system forces us to? Nope.
I'll tell you what, if … [view original content]
No, because it would be saying something as similar as the earth is flat or that after night there's no day. Don't go denying something that was here from the beginning of our species.
One case? Are you serious it happens every day in EU and nobody reports that. I don't prise them, I see that at this point Im more in line with them which is sad. I would love an anti immigration pro freedom force in EU, a true third wave party that is both against cultural relativism and respects its roots and economic system and in the same time rejects religion and its outdated moral codes. What I want its the kind of right wing Sodom and Gomorrah. Where everything is allowed and if you don't like that then you can get lost and go beg somewhere else. If you live in a society where you can't call things for what they are (like say prophet of islam being a pedophile for marrying underage Aisha and having sex with a child) then you don't live in a free society actually. And you can't say that on a tv in EU.
Because of just one case in a country you say freedom of speech is fucked in all UE (since when Merkel is from left btw? She makes a comprom… moreise with others politics) and you praise extrem right, a regim who don't care about freedom of speech at all?
If it was a North Korean country (the comparison is just ridiculous) they would put in jail those girls so no one complains about it. In a case like that, freedom of speech would be abolished.
Ah, the Somalia argument, classic. Anarchy isn't simply abolishing the state, it means challenging all forms of authority and hierarchy, including both state and capitalism. Traditionally, it also involves "building a new society in the shell of the old, before breaking the shell". Somalia just fell apart, there was no concerted effort to Establish working class power, kick out oppressors or build new institutions. It was simply an immediate shift of power from a dictatorship to warlords. Hardly comparable to an actual Libertarian movement like the Zapatistas, Rojava or CNT-FAI.
And the USSR continues to be irrelevant in a discussion about Libertarian Socialism.
You want anarchy, have a safe trip to Somalia a land that has no functioning goverment or buegeoise for the last 30 years. Also the burgeoise emerged from the soviet population after collapse of communism.
what @Still_not_bitten said there are always the one who rule and those who follow, Like Marx said the struggle of classes, Slave owners vs … moreSlaves, nobility vs peasants, Bourgeoisie vs workers ect. You can't chagne that. It's how all of our cultures work no matter how they deny it. There's always a ruling class and the servants class regardless how you name it
Rojava has a president so thats an autority and hierarchy, you can't have a society without that. Oh yeah, the classical oppressor argument. There is no oppressor in a democratic free state like say USA. You can do whatever you want. Dont like your Macjob go sell flowers or wahtever.
Ah, the Somalia argument, classic. Anarchy isn't simply abolishing the state, it means challenging all forms of authority and hierarchy, in… morecluding both state and capitalism. Traditionally, it also involves "building a new society in the shell of the old, before breaking the shell". Somalia just fell apart, there was no concerted effort to Establish working class power, kick out oppressors or build new institutions. It was simply an immediate shift of power from a dictatorship to warlords. Hardly comparable to an actual Libertarian movement like the Zapatistas, Rojava or CNT-FAI.
And the USSR continues to be irrelevant in a discussion about Libertarian Socialism.
Anarchy, as the absence of government, is neither chaos nor some impossible Utopian dream. In fact it is a very common form of political organisation and one which has characterised much of the human past. People Without Government describes briefly the anarchic political structures of a number of these societies. True they are mainly small-scale hunting, gathering and horticultural groups. However, the social organisation of certain large populations with complex relations is also sometimes anarchic. Thus anarchy applies to a broad spectrum of different kinds of societies.
This book seeks to show what anarchy has been like in practice. Special attention is paid to the techniques of leadership, maintaining order and decision-making. The dynamic interplay between freedom and authority is considered, particularly the apparent tendency of anarchic polities to degenerate into states with government and for organisations to become oligarchies, and it is concluded that liberty and individuality are at best very tenuous and fleeting entities. There can be no relenting in the struggle for freedom.
That's the summary, what point you wanted to make?
One case? Are you serious it happens every day in EU and nobody reports that. I don't prise them, I see that at this point Im more in line w… moreith them which is sad. I would love an anti immigration pro freedom force in EU, a true third wave party that is both against cultural relativism and respects its roots and economic system and in the same time rejects religion and its outdated moral codes. What I want its the kind of right wing Sodom and Gomorrah. Where everything is allowed and if you don't like that then you can get lost and go beg somewhere else. If you live in a society where you can't call things for what they are (like say prophet of islam being a pedophile for marrying underage Aisha and having sex with a child) then you don't live in a free society actually. And you can't say that on a tv in EU.
Anarchy, as the absence of government, is neither chaos nor some impossible Utopian dream. In fact it is a very common form of political org… moreanisation and one which has characterised much of the human past. People Without Government describes briefly the anarchic political structures of a number of these societies. True they are mainly small-scale hunting, gathering and horticultural groups. However, the social organisation of certain large populations with complex relations is also sometimes anarchic. Thus anarchy applies to a broad spectrum of different kinds of societies.
This book seeks to show what anarchy has been like in practice. Special attention is paid to the techniques of leadership, maintaining order and decision-making. The dynamic interplay between freedom and authority is considered, particularly the apparent tendency of anarchic polities to degenerate into states with government and for organisations to become oligarchies, … [view original content]
If nobody reports it and it happens everyday.. How do you know it? Do you have actually some proofs or you are just completely paranoid?
Also I thought you were african?
Germany, where there is the only example you pointed to, isn't leftish.
A society where everything is allowed admits no freedom. Pedophilia happens too in Christian Church also.
No one says things about the marriage of the prophet in tv because it happened a thousand years ago.. There's prescription since then.
One case? Are you serious it happens every day in EU and nobody reports that. I don't prise them, I see that at this point Im more in line w… moreith them which is sad. I would love an anti immigration pro freedom force in EU, a true third wave party that is both against cultural relativism and respects its roots and economic system and in the same time rejects religion and its outdated moral codes. What I want its the kind of right wing Sodom and Gomorrah. Where everything is allowed and if you don't like that then you can get lost and go beg somewhere else. If you live in a society where you can't call things for what they are (like say prophet of islam being a pedophile for marrying underage Aisha and having sex with a child) then you don't live in a free society actually. And you can't say that on a tv in EU.
I'm a native European. Why would you think I live in Africa? This migratiom bullshit durectly affecting me my state is forced to take in those free loaders and potential terrorists by the EU/Merkels order. And you can find stuff on youtube. Theres tons of video of those barbarians acting like barbarians in EU. Illegally taking down border fences in Maccedonia and Hungary. Spitting on women in metro. Throwing firecrackers at people in Cologne. Internet still is somewhat a bastion of freedom but most people don't go to youtube and search for this, they relie of the biased mainstream media (often run by the state).
Child marridge is still part of Islam if you didn't know, so that kinda is a problem.
If nobody reports it and it happens everyday.. How do you know it? Do you have actually some proofs or you are just completely paranoid?
Al… moreso I thought you were african?
Germany, where there is the only example you pointed to, isn't leftish.
A society where everything is allowed admits no freedom. Pedophilia happens too in Christian Church also.
No one says things about the marriage of the prophet in tv because it happened a thousand years ago.. There's prescription since then.
(marrying child wasn't an african specificy btw)
I'm all for people being equal in face of Law. Beggar and rich should have the same right in court, this is just.
But people being equal is utopia.
People are not equal and won't ever be. There are people who are better more capable than others, that's a fact. Even in those small societas there were chieftains, clan head or Elders who had more say than others. In micro scale it is possible to achive egalitarian society but in macro? Impossible.
Rojava has a president so thats an autority and hierarchy, you can't have a society without that.
Never claimed it was anarchist, but it's Libertarian Socialist and a pretty unprecedented step in the right direction.
There is no oppressor in a democratic free state like say USA. You can do whatever you want. Dont like your Macjob go sell flowers or wahtever.
You're so stuffed to the gills with propaganda, it's truly a thing of beauty! There's a steel, government fist behind the invisible hand of the market and if you're too willfully blind to see that, we really have nothing else worth discussing.
Rojava has a president so thats an autority and hierarchy, you can't have a society without that. Oh yeah, the classical oppressor argument.… more There is no oppressor in a democratic free state like say USA. You can do whatever you want. Dont like your Macjob go sell flowers or wahtever.
Oh nothing, I just got it wrong from another thread. The 10USD/h salary people get in US at MacDonalds is the salary of doctors and scientists where I live
I guess you're living in eastern countries then. That would explain the "west" hate.
I think that there's more a link between poverty than just because "muh muslims" but it's a question of appreciation I guess.
The problem of videos on internet is that you don't know the context and you can't reliate to the source about it. Also there are native who put problems (last example: some students hitting the police in france), but since the media prefers to talk about "muh muslims going trash" one talk only about their accidents, not the rest.
I'm a native European. Why would you think I live in Africa? This migratiom bullshit durectly affecting me my state is forced to take in tho… morese free loaders and potential terrorists by the EU/Merkels order. And you can find stuff on youtube. Theres tons of video of those barbarians acting like barbarians in EU. Illegally taking down border fences in Maccedonia and Hungary. Spitting on women in metro. Throwing firecrackers at people in Cologne. Internet still is somewhat a bastion of freedom but most people don't go to youtube and search for this, they relie of the biased mainstream media (often run by the state).
Child marridge is still part of Islam if you didn't know, so that kinda is a problem.
I have no problem with certain kinds of justified hierarchies. The medicine man had his place of privilege because of his wisdom and intelligence. The parent-child and teacher-student hierarchy exists because it's for the child's own good. There is definitely room for nuance. My libertarian beliefs require me to critique all hierarchy, but some forms of authority are justified. I said as much in the post about my political philosophy.
What justifies a "trust-fund kid's" place above me in the corporate hierarchy? Nothing. We don't obey that kind of authority because it's good for us, we obey because we are afraid of the consequences of disobedience and because we can't imagine anything else. That is a form of authority that should always be challenged and subverted, regardless of whether a truly egalitarian society is possible.
I'm all for people being equal in face of Law. Beggar and rich should have the same right in court, this is just.
But people being equal … moreis utopia.
People are not equal and won't ever be. There are people who are better more capable than others, that's a fact. Even in those small societas there were chieftains, clan head or Elders who had more say than others. In micro scale it is possible to achive egalitarian society but in macro? Impossible.
Every state is a form of opression it only changes with measures it takes to force the obidience, but that's how things are and we won't change that.
Yet without authority what there is? chaos like we see in middle east. The dictators were bloody but there was order now it's chaos and war.
I'm not a fan of overpower state either, too much danger here, but what I hate the most is incapable people in charge. I would have nothing against with more authoritarian goverment if it was filled with capable people with vison.
I have no problem with certain kinds of justified hierarchies. The medicine man had his place of privilege because of his wisdom and intell… moreigence. The parent-child and teacher-student hierarchy exists because it's for the child's own good. There is definitely room for nuance. My libertarian beliefs require me to critique all hierarchy, but some forms of authority are justified. I said as much in the post about my political philosophy.
What justifies a "trust-fund kid's" place above me in the corporate hierarchy? Nothing. We don't obey that kind of authority because it's good for us, we obey because we are afraid of the consequences of disobedience and because we can't imagine anything else. That is a form of authority that should always be challenged and subverted, regardless of whether a truly egalitarian society is possible.
Yet without authority what there is? chaos like we see in middle east. The dictators were bloody but there was order now it's chaos and war.
The only viable alternative to authority is mass-participation, and the odds were stacked against that in those countries. The Middle Eastern dictatorships stayed in power by holding a monopoly on political power and knowledge. Consequently, people were estranged with the political process, beyond being angry at it. Places like Libya never stood a chance without a careful transition to Democracy. Whereas places like Kurdistan, which are already self-reliant and democratic, have survived pretty well in the absence of Assad's jackboot. I'd also point out that Salafist Extremism is partially the product of unjustified (and insidious) clerical authority.
I'm not a fan of overpower state either, too much danger here, but what I hate the most is incapable people in charge. I would have nothing against with more authoritarian goverment if it was filled with capable people with vison.
I can sympathize with this sentiment even though I strongly disagree with it.
Every state is a form of opression it only changes with measures it takes to force the obidience, but that's how things are and we won't cha… morenge that.
Yet without authority what there is? chaos like we see in middle east. The dictators were bloody but there was order now it's chaos and war.
I'm not a fan of overpower state either, too much danger here, but what I hate the most is incapable people in charge. I would have nothing against with more authoritarian goverment if it was filled with capable people with vison.
The only viable alternative to authority is mass-participation, and the odds were stacked against that in those countries. The Middle Eastern dictatorships stayed in power by holding a monopoly on political power and knowledge. Consequently, people were estranged with the political process, beyond being angry at it. Places like Libya never stood a chance without a careful transition to Democracy. Whereas places like Kurdistan, which are already self-reliant and democratic, have survived pretty well in the absence of Assad's jackboot.
True but the kurds are seperate matter here, in contrast to other places. Generaly this whole Arab spring was a gigantic faulire. The vaccum of power, upset the whole balance and created a chain reaction in there and in Europe...
I'd also point out that Salafist Extremism is partially the product of unjustified (and insidious) clerical authority.
Yet without authority what there is? chaos like we see in middle east. The dictators were bloody but there was order now it's chaos and war.… more
The only viable alternative to authority is mass-participation, and the odds were stacked against that in those countries. The Middle Eastern dictatorships stayed in power by holding a monopoly on political power and knowledge. Consequently, people were estranged with the political process, beyond being angry at it. Places like Libya never stood a chance without a careful transition to Democracy. Whereas places like Kurdistan, which are already self-reliant and democratic, have survived pretty well in the absence of Assad's jackboot. I'd also point out that Salafist Extremism is partially the product of unjustified (and insidious) clerical authority.
I'm not a fan of overpower state either, too much danger here, but what I hate the most is incapable people in charge. I would have nothi… [view original content]
True but the kurds are seperate matter here, in contrast to other places.
How so?
True but the kurds are seperate matter here, in contrast to other places. Generaly this whole Arab spring was a gigantic faulire. The vaccum of power, upset the whole balance and created a chain reaction in there and in Europe...
Largely for the reasons I stated above. No new institutions to replace the ones that were dismantled. Few plans for transitioning to democracy post-revolution. There was a huge power vacuum because the dictatorship made sure there was absolutely no power outside the government. It wasn't a natural occurance, rather, It was a concerted effort the ruling class to ensure that the masses were dependent on them. As we can see by the collapse of the Arab Spring, they did a good job of it.
That's the pits of hell for you...
FTFY. Saudi Arabia is pretty much the epitomy of everything I despise.
The only viable alternative to authority is mass-participation, and the odds were stacked against that in those countries. The Middle Easter… moren dictatorships stayed in power by holding a monopoly on political power and knowledge. Consequently, people were estranged with the political process, beyond being angry at it. Places like Libya never stood a chance without a careful transition to Democracy. Whereas places like Kurdistan, which are already self-reliant and democratic, have survived pretty well in the absence of Assad's jackboot.
True but the kurds are seperate matter here, in contrast to other places. Generaly this whole Arab spring was a gigantic faulire. The vaccum of power, upset the whole balance and created a chain reaction in there and in Europe...
I'd also point out that Salafist Extremism is partially the product of unjustified (and insidious) clerical authority.
That's Saudi Arabia for you...
So do you think single mothers/father should have their children taken away from them and given to a family with a male and a female parent?
I don't know if my english is off or something but you don't get it. I wasn't refering to single parents at all, nor taking those children from them. I was refering to the fact that I belive that a child needs both parents to properly grow. A mother (female) and a father(male). Before you say that there is nothing wrong with having one parent yes I agree but would you prefer to have one or both?
Also, can you name ONE 'female' personality trait that no male ever has had? And vice versa? Just one.
It's not about a personality. What I meant was female and male behavior model to learn from.
So do you think single mothers/father should have their children taken away from them and given to a family with a male and a female parent?
Also, can you name ONE 'female' personality trait that no male ever has had? And vice versa? Just one.
Despite my dislike for Muslims I sympathize on some level with Kurds since it's the largest nationality (around 30 million give or take) without country. My people had similar experience once. The point is that they're much more organized since they were semi-autonomous in Iraq, have large structures in both syria and turkey, which help them form the state. Libia is the example of the lack of formers structures. Hence the civil war and chaos there. as you probably noticed in most Arab countries army took over and brought back the other and expelled the islamist (Egypt) but it also showed the large problem there...those people are not ready for democracy since it totally new idea in that region and it will take decades for them to learn it.
That's the pits of hell for you...
Exactly don't know which is worse this shithole or North Korea...
True but the kurds are seperate matter here, in contrast to other places.
How so?
True but the kurds are seperate matter here,… more in contrast to other places. Generaly this whole Arab spring was a gigantic faulire. The vaccum of power, upset the whole balance and created a chain reaction in there and in Europe...
Largely for the reasons I stated above. No new institutions to replace the ones that were dismantled. Few plans for transitioning to democracy post-revolution. There was a huge power vacuum because the dictatorship made sure there was absolutely no power outside the government. It wasn't a natural occurance, rather, It was a concerted effort the ruling class to ensure that the masses were dependent on them. As we can see by the collapse of the Arab Spring, they did a good job of it.
That's the pits of hell for you...
FTFY. Saudi Arabia is pretty much the epitomy of everything I despise.
I was refering to the fact that I belive that a child needs both parents to properly grow.
Logically, this follows that a single parent would be as ineffective at raising a child as two parents of the same gender, no?
It's not about a personality. What I meant was female and male behavior model to learn from.
Why? What behaviour can a woman teach a female child that a man cannot?
I genuinely don't understand your argument. Can you please explain further these 'behaviour models' and provide some evidence that children need separate gendered parents for a happy, healthy childhood?
So do you think single mothers/father should have their children taken away from them and given to a family with a male and a female parent?… more
I don't know if my english is off or something but you don't get it. I wasn't refering to single parents at all, nor taking those children from them. I was refering to the fact that I belive that a child needs both parents to properly grow. A mother (female) and a father(male). Before you say that there is nothing wrong with having one parent yes I agree but would you prefer to have one or both?
Also, can you name ONE 'female' personality trait that no male ever has had? And vice versa? Just one.
It's not about a personality. What I meant was female and male behavior model to learn from.
Furthermore, the statement that heirarchy is required for a society to function because it is human nature and it will not function otherwise also falls under a fallacious appeal to nature.
Human nature isn't a constant, it adapts to experciences, environment and social conditioning. While there is hierarchy in tribal villages,… more there is also often a gift economy in which people take and give items on an "as-needed/wanted" basis, rather than a formalized system of trading. They also own their own means of self-sufficiency and the chief has much less control over their labor and lives. This is a far cry from our system in which the bourgeoisie have direct control over most aspects of our lives and everything, even land, has been commodified. There are also tribes that eschewed hierarchy altogether (I can direct you to a resource).
If hierarchy is natural, why do so many people dislike it? We obey authority for many reasons, but not because we enjoy it. What other human instinct workers like that? Do we eat because the system forces us to? No. Do we fuck because the system forces us to? Nope.
I'll tell you what, if … [view original content]
North Korea is definitely worse in my book. The control that the king and clerics have over the population simply pales in comparison to the state religion surrounding the Dear Leader. You'll be brutally persecuted in Saudi Arabia, but you probably won't starve or be shot for making internationl phone calls. Also, if you read about North Korea's prison camps, there's really no comparison, besides maybe Auschwitz or Imperial Japan's Unit 731.
Despite my dislike for Muslims I sympathize on some level with Kurds since it's the largest nationality (around 30 million give or take) wit… morehout country. My people had similar experience once. The point is that they're much more organized since they were semi-autonomous in Iraq, have large structures in both syria and turkey, which help them form the state. Libia is the example of the lack of formers structures. Hence the civil war and chaos there. as you probably noticed in most Arab countries army took over and brought back the other and expelled the islamist (Egypt) but it also showed the large problem there...those people are not ready for democracy since it totally new idea in that region and it will take decades for them to learn it.
That's the pits of hell for you...
Exactly don't know which is worse this shithole or North Korea...
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what @Still_not_bitten said there are always the one who rule and those who follow, Like Marx said the struggle of classes, Slave owners vs Slaves, nobility vs peasants, Bourgeoisie vs workers ect. You can't chagne that. It's how all of our cultures work no matter how they deny it. There's always a ruling class and the servants class regardless how you name it
Believe I don't like Le Pen (she is way too friendly with Russia). So this isn't suppression of freedom of speech?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fabio-bolzonar/silence-reigns-in-cologne_b_8990566.html
Once again, you're strawmanning us all as authoritarian Marxists who want to maintain a dominant state, which we're not. The capitalist hierarchy was forced on us when "private-property" norms were developed, people had their autonomous means of production taken away, and were forced to sell their labor to the privileged classes (usually the old nobles from before). Nothing natural about that.
Also, I'd call into question your point about the DPRK. North Korea never had worker autonomy to begin with. They started out as a Stalinist dictatorship with a clearly defined "red bourgeoisie". Red Fascist states like the DPRK and Soviet Union demonstrate that Socialism and Statism are incompatible, not that a society without bourgeoisie isn't possible.
Workplace democracy can be successful. During the Spanish Civil War the anarchist CNT-FAI drove away the bosses and managed to both feed a large part of Republican Spain and keep a war economy running right up until the Stalinists took over (and subsequently ran the economy into the ground). In fact, innovation thrived because workers no longer had to fear being made obsolete by new technologies and therefore, didn't resist progress,
Why?
I belive that a child needs both female and male traits in their parents, that's all nothing more.
I was talking about France more than Europa since you were talking about Le Pen. For example I did not implied that Hungary was pro freedom of speech.
For Cologne as I remember it was previous members of the immigration, not the ones coming this last year.
But yes, putting a blank about it is a shame. Still, if they were against freedom of speech, you just wouldn't hear of it.
Whereever you look there is always hirachy of power. You might find the most remote village on this planet and there will be a leader on top who will get the best things they have in that particular micro model of society. Class is part of a human nature. Thats why meritocracy works.
And in a heterosexual family where the male and female have more feminine traits, should the children produced be removed from the grounds on the notion that they need to be exposed to a larger amount of masculine traits at home?
EDIT: And what if the homosexual couple display both feminine and masculine traits, would it be acceptable then? Does the notion of the child being exposed to both sets of traits outside of the home on a daily basis negate your rational? What do you classify as the correct dosage of both masculine and feminine traits? What do you classify as a male trait that a female cannot instill in their children, and what do you classify as a female trait that a male cannot instill in their children?
What previous immigration? it's still the same immigration just after winter break. Also that was the idea to keep it undercover but it was simply just too big to hide...
What you said is just so ridiculous that I won't even address that.
Some of them had asyluum seeker documents when arrested. Nobody will ever say to you that they are against freedom of speech. North Korea officially is a democratic country for the people (DPRK). The left is inherently against freedom of speech, they will put some spin on it, you can't say that or this because that might cause tension in some minority community they themselfs imported. You know like all proper communists they will oppress people for their own good so to say.
I suppose I could say the same about your argument.
No, because it would be saying something as similar as the earth is flat or that after night there's no day. Don't go denying something that was here from the beginning of our species.
Because of just one case in a country you say freedom of speech is fucked in all UE (since when Merkel is from left btw? She makes a compromise with others politics) and you praise extrem right, a regim who don't care about freedom of speech at all?
If it was a North Korean country (the comparison is just ridiculous) they would put in jail those girls so no one complains about it. In a case like that, freedom of speech would be abolished.
Human nature isn't a constant, it adapts to experciences, environment and social conditioning. While there is hierarchy in tribal villages, there is also often a gift economy in which people take and give items on an "as-needed/wanted" basis, rather than a formalized system of trading. They also own their own means of self-sufficiency and the chief has much less control over their labor and lives. This is a far cry from our system in which the bourgeoisie have direct control over most aspects of our lives and everything, even land, has been commodified. There are also tribes that eschewed hierarchy altogether (I can direct you to a resource).
If hierarchy is natural, why do so many people dislike it? We obey authority for many reasons, but not because we enjoy it. What other human instinct workers like that? Do we eat because the system forces us to? No. Do we fuck because the system forces us to? Nope.
I'll tell you what, if there's a successful Anarchist revolution and the bourgeoisie re-emerges, I will happily concede my point.
You want anarchy, have a safe trip to Somalia a land that has no functioning goverment or buegeoise for the last 30 years. Also the burgeoise emerged from the soviet population after collapse of communism.
No, that's not like saying the Earth is flat. What an atrocious analogy.
One case? Are you serious it happens every day in EU and nobody reports that. I don't prise them, I see that at this point Im more in line with them which is sad. I would love an anti immigration pro freedom force in EU, a true third wave party that is both against cultural relativism and respects its roots and economic system and in the same time rejects religion and its outdated moral codes. What I want its the kind of right wing Sodom and Gomorrah. Where everything is allowed and if you don't like that then you can get lost and go beg somewhere else. If you live in a society where you can't call things for what they are (like say prophet of islam being a pedophile for marrying underage Aisha and having sex with a child) then you don't live in a free society actually. And you can't say that on a tv in EU.
Ah, the Somalia argument, classic. Anarchy isn't simply abolishing the state, it means challenging all forms of authority and hierarchy, including both state and capitalism. Traditionally, it also involves "building a new society in the shell of the old, before breaking the shell". Somalia just fell apart, there was no concerted effort to Establish working class power, kick out oppressors or build new institutions. It was simply an immediate shift of power from a dictatorship to warlords. Hardly comparable to an actual Libertarian movement like the Zapatistas, Rojava or CNT-FAI.
And the USSR continues to be irrelevant in a discussion about Libertarian Socialism.
People without Government: An Anthropology of Anarchy
A pretty good read on the subject.
Rojava has a president so thats an autority and hierarchy, you can't have a society without that. Oh yeah, the classical oppressor argument. There is no oppressor in a democratic free state like say USA. You can do whatever you want. Dont like your Macjob go sell flowers or wahtever.
That's the summary, what point you wanted to make?
We are of one mind....
Your assumption that an egalitarian society is impossible and has no historical basis is flawed.
If nobody reports it and it happens everyday.. How do you know it? Do you have actually some proofs or you are just completely paranoid?
Also I thought you were african?
Germany, where there is the only example you pointed to, isn't leftish.
A society where everything is allowed admits no freedom. Pedophilia happens too in Christian Church also.
No one says things about the marriage of the prophet in tv because it happened a thousand years ago.. There's prescription since then.
(marrying child wasn't an african specificy btw)
I'm a native European. Why would you think I live in Africa? This migratiom bullshit durectly affecting me my state is forced to take in those free loaders and potential terrorists by the EU/Merkels order. And you can find stuff on youtube. Theres tons of video of those barbarians acting like barbarians in EU. Illegally taking down border fences in Maccedonia and Hungary. Spitting on women in metro. Throwing firecrackers at people in Cologne. Internet still is somewhat a bastion of freedom but most people don't go to youtube and search for this, they relie of the biased mainstream media (often run by the state).
Child marridge is still part of Islam if you didn't know, so that kinda is a problem.
I'm all for people being equal in face of Law. Beggar and rich should have the same right in court, this is just.
But people being equal is utopia.
People are not equal and won't ever be. There are people who are better more capable than others, that's a fact. Even in those small societas there were chieftains, clan head or Elders who had more say than others. In micro scale it is possible to achive egalitarian society but in macro? Impossible.
Never claimed it was anarchist, but it's Libertarian Socialist and a pretty unprecedented step in the right direction.
You're so stuffed to the gills with propaganda, it's truly a thing of beauty! There's a steel, government fist behind the invisible hand of the market and if you're too willfully blind to see that, we really have nothing else worth discussing.
Oh nothing, I just got it wrong from another thread.
The 10USD/h salary people get in US at MacDonalds is the salary of doctors and scientists where I live
I guess you're living in eastern countries then. That would explain the "west" hate.
I think that there's more a link between poverty than just because "muh muslims" but it's a question of appreciation I guess.
The problem of videos on internet is that you don't know the context and you can't reliate to the source about it. Also there are native who put problems (last example: some students hitting the police in france), but since the media prefers to talk about "muh muslims going trash" one talk only about their accidents, not the rest.
I have no problem with certain kinds of justified hierarchies. The medicine man had his place of privilege because of his wisdom and intelligence. The parent-child and teacher-student hierarchy exists because it's for the child's own good. There is definitely room for nuance. My libertarian beliefs require me to critique all hierarchy, but some forms of authority are justified. I said as much in the post about my political philosophy.
What justifies a "trust-fund kid's" place above me in the corporate hierarchy? Nothing. We don't obey that kind of authority because it's good for us, we obey because we are afraid of the consequences of disobedience and because we can't imagine anything else. That is a form of authority that should always be challenged and subverted, regardless of whether a truly egalitarian society is possible.
Every state is a form of opression it only changes with measures it takes to force the obidience, but that's how things are and we won't change that.
Yet without authority what there is? chaos like we see in middle east. The dictators were bloody but there was order now it's chaos and war.
I'm not a fan of overpower state either, too much danger here, but what I hate the most is incapable people in charge. I would have nothing against with more authoritarian goverment if it was filled with capable people with vison.
The only viable alternative to authority is mass-participation, and the odds were stacked against that in those countries. The Middle Eastern dictatorships stayed in power by holding a monopoly on political power and knowledge. Consequently, people were estranged with the political process, beyond being angry at it. Places like Libya never stood a chance without a careful transition to Democracy. Whereas places like Kurdistan, which are already self-reliant and democratic, have survived pretty well in the absence of Assad's jackboot. I'd also point out that Salafist Extremism is partially the product of unjustified (and insidious) clerical authority.
I can sympathize with this sentiment even though I strongly disagree with it.
True but the kurds are seperate matter here, in contrast to other places. Generaly this whole Arab spring was a gigantic faulire. The vaccum of power, upset the whole balance and created a chain reaction in there and in Europe...
That's Saudi Arabia for you...
So do you think single mothers/father should have their children taken away from them and given to a family with a male and a female parent?
Also, can you name ONE 'female' personality trait that no male ever has had? And vice versa? Just one.
How so?
Largely for the reasons I stated above. No new institutions to replace the ones that were dismantled. Few plans for transitioning to democracy post-revolution. There was a huge power vacuum because the dictatorship made sure there was absolutely no power outside the government. It wasn't a natural occurance, rather, It was a concerted effort the ruling class to ensure that the masses were dependent on them. As we can see by the collapse of the Arab Spring, they did a good job of it.
FTFY. Saudi Arabia is pretty much the epitomy of everything I despise.
I don't know if my english is off or something but you don't get it. I wasn't refering to single parents at all, nor taking those children from them. I was refering to the fact that I belive that a child needs both parents to properly grow. A mother (female) and a father(male). Before you say that there is nothing wrong with having one parent yes I agree but would you prefer to have one or both?
It's not about a personality. What I meant was female and male behavior model to learn from.
Despite my dislike for Muslims I sympathize on some level with Kurds since it's the largest nationality (around 30 million give or take) without country. My people had similar experience once. The point is that they're much more organized since they were semi-autonomous in Iraq, have large structures in both syria and turkey, which help them form the state. Libia is the example of the lack of formers structures. Hence the civil war and chaos there. as you probably noticed in most Arab countries army took over and brought back the other and expelled the islamist (Egypt) but it also showed the large problem there...those people are not ready for democracy since it totally new idea in that region and it will take decades for them to learn it.
Exactly don't know which is worse this shithole or North Korea...
Logically, this follows that a single parent would be as ineffective at raising a child as two parents of the same gender, no?
Why? What behaviour can a woman teach a female child that a man cannot?
I genuinely don't understand your argument. Can you please explain further these 'behaviour models' and provide some evidence that children need separate gendered parents for a happy, healthy childhood?
Furthermore, the statement that heirarchy is required for a society to function because it is human nature and it will not function otherwise also falls under a fallacious appeal to nature.
North Korea is definitely worse in my book. The control that the king and clerics have over the population simply pales in comparison to the state religion surrounding the Dear Leader. You'll be brutally persecuted in Saudi Arabia, but you probably won't starve or be shot for making internationl phone calls. Also, if you read about North Korea's prison camps, there's really no comparison, besides maybe Auschwitz or Imperial Japan's Unit 731.