But isnt Jon supposed to liberate the north?
Yes he is. Once he is resurrected and released from his Night's Watch vows, he is free … moreto lay his sword at Stannis' feet, to rise again as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and join Stannis in his war against the Boltons. Or maybe he will forget all about Stannis' offer and make a claim for the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen.
Also your basically saying its bad because there is some theory youd prefer to have
What the hell are you talking about?
Well, there we differ. You can accept plot holes, I can't. Any contradiction makes the story impossible, even in an alternate universe with different physical laws. I do as Euclid; once I find one wrong element in a concept, I discard it entirely.
The plot being inconsistent is just your interpretation on it. I've seen the arguments on that sort of interpretation before and I, like man… morey others, have had counter arguments to it. You seeing something as inconsistent isn't be all end all truth and conclusion. And even if there would be a plothole or two that could be nitpicked from there, it doesn't necessarily make the story bad, it is just a minor negative on it. There are massive amounts of amazing stories in the world that have some plotholes in them.
To me some small plotholes don't matter as long as the story is enjoyable. If your answer to that is "the story is not enjoyable", then we are once again in the realm of opinions.
Well, there we differ. You can accept plot holes, I can't. Any contradiction makes the story impossible, even in an alternate universe with different physical laws. I do as Euclid; once I find one wrong element in a concept, I discard it entirely.
Well, there we differ. You can accept plot holes, I can't. Any contradiction makes the story impossible, even in an alternate universe with different physical laws. I do as Euclid; once I find one wrong element in a concept, I discard it entirely.
I would rather see Davos as Lord Commander than Stannis
Your not getting what im saying, I think anyone who stays at the wall is going to die to the wights, they have to break through at some point. Stannis dying there trying to defend the realm and doing his duty fits the character, Id rather davos help jon or something.
I personally think the Nights Watch is defunct and should be disbanded period. That being said, if I wasnt already sure he was dead and not coming back, would I want to see Stannis trying to redeem himself as Lord Commander, and dying honorably trying to defend the wall? No. I dont think he can be redeemed for choosing to burn his own child to death just so he can be king. People think he's so honorable but that act says otherwise. I certainly dont want Davos to die, I was only saying that I would choose him to follow over Stannis. But if The Nights Watch somehow does go on after this, then I think Davos would be a good leader of it.
I would rather see Davos as Lord Commander than Stannis
Your not getting what im saying, I think anyone who stays at the wall is goi… moreng to die to the wights, they have to break through at some point. Stannis dying there trying to defend the realm and doing his duty fits the character, Id rather davos help jon or something.
Of course. I want anyone who has a quarrel with the Boltons to unite against them. They are the most misanthropic house in Westeros and may even be in league with the Others. (The Bolt-on theory.)
So far you've provided no evidence into why the show plot was bad apart from potential theories about what stannis could do in future books
As I have stated earlier, i think the show plot is bad since it's inconsistent, but if you don't mind the contradictions, it's fine. Btw. the "potential theories about what stannis could do in future books" are not limited to the books if Stannis is alive in the show, and are not used as "evidence into why the show plot was bad". From where did you get that?
Oh okay you want them both to join forces?
What the hell are you talking about?
So far you've provided no evidence into why the show plot was bad apart from potential theories about what stannis could do in future books
The series had the habit of switching plots to a character to another; one example is the Jorah/Jon Connigton or Sansa/Jeyne Poole. Stannis has not one northern lord behind him in series while in books he has several (Mormonts, Glover, some Umbers, the Northern clans: Flint, Norroy and so on) and know the plan of Bolton through two spotted turncloaks. In series he has none, while it seems the Northern conspiracy with the cast of several lords will happen this season, meaning they switched Stannis's arc to Jon Snow.
For the Shireen-thing, she is at the wall with Melisandre, meaning either:
A°) Stannis really loses but didn't burn his daughter.
B°) He wins, find someway to go North (while it's freezing) and burn her.
That's maybe what Differic wanted to say. I will also point the fact GRRM said lately a plot-twist will happen with a dead character from the show; this could refer to Mance or Stannis. (aswell as others, of course)
Still if it happens to be true, one doesn't believe that Stannis will be king and live happily ever after (he saw his death and so far prophecies until today always worked in asoiaf) but that his role wouldn't be simply over and last a bit longer than his series-counterpart.
i think he will be resurrected around episode 3-4. no let me rephrace that, around episode 3-4 it will be the set up for his resurrection, t… morehen around episode 4-5 (maybe 6) we see jon comeback. what i mean is that around episodes 3-5 we might just see just the set up to the ritual or whatever the case it might be to his resurrection, and in one of them is gonna be the actual ritual and it ends there. than in episdoe 6, maybe earlier with episode 5, we now see fully resurrected Jon Stark/Targaryen.
BOOM. Kappa.
I didnt say he would be redeemed, he would die there and it would be sort of fitting. Its like theon he wouldnt really be forgiven. Tough again I dont really see any reason for him to come back
Also I dont think your giving the nights watch enough credit, they've defended the kingdom for years. They cant just disband it
I personally think the Nights Watch is defunct and should be disbanded period. That being said, if I wasnt already sure he was dead and not … morecoming back, would I want to see Stannis trying to redeem himself as Lord Commander, and dying honorably trying to defend the wall? No. I dont think he can be redeemed for choosing to burn his own child to death just so he can be king. People think he's so honorable but that act says otherwise. I certainly dont want Davos to die, I was only saying that I would choose him to follow over Stannis. But if The Nights Watch somehow does go on after this, then I think Davos would be a good leader of it.
Two things could have convinced Roose that Stannis is dead:
A) He saw the corpse of a man he thought was Stannis
A sufficient amount of people have confidently told him that Stannis is dead.
If A is true, the corpse Roose saw could be the corpse of a Stannis impostor, arranged by Stannis himself (to trick the Boltons into believing that he is no longer a threat) or by Ramsay (he couldn't find Stannis' body, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to fake bodies before (at least in the books)).
If B is true, the notion that Stannis is dead could just be a false rumor, started by Bolton men seeing the corpse of a Stannis impostor or by Ramsay (he couldn't confirm Stannis' death, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to lie before).
These theories are getting more and more ridiculous....What benefit would Stannis have to the story now? Mel and Davos a rallying around Jon, theres no purpose or need for stannis anymore
Two things could have convinced Roose that Stannis is dead:
A) He saw the corpse of a man he thought was Stannis
A sufficient amount … moreof people have confidently told him that Stannis is dead.
If A is true, the corpse Roose saw could be the corpse of a Stannis impostor, arranged by Stannis himself (to trick the Boltons into believing that he is no longer a threat) or by Ramsay (he couldn't find Stannis' body, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to fake bodies before (at least in the books)).
If B is true, the notion that Stannis is dead could just be a false rumor, started by Bolton men seeing the corpse of a Stannis impostor or by Ramsay (he couldn't confirm Stannis' death, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to lie before).
The series had the habit of switching plots to a character to another; one example is the Jorah/Jon Connigton or Sansa/Jeyne Poole. Stannis has not one northern lord behind him in series while in books he has several (Mormonts, Glover, some Umbers, the Northern clans: Flint, Norroy and so on) and know the plan of Bolton through two spotted turncloaks. In series he has none, while it seems the Northern conspiracy with the cast of several lords will happen this season, meaning they switched Stannis's arc to Jon Snow
And to be honest im okay with that, In the books ill enjoy reading about all the joncon,jeyne sublots but in a tv show it just creates pointless side stories that dont matter overall, a tv show has to simplify some factors of the book. Its not going to directly adapt to a show or movie.
For the Shireen-thing, she is at the wall with Melisandre, meaning either:
A°) Stannis really loses but didn't burn his daughter.
B°) He wins, find someway to go North (while it's freezing) and burn her.
To me they made shireen a much better character in the show and I also feel that both stannis and mel burning her and more importantly it not working set up Mel being so despondent about her god that she can revive jon snow.
The series had the habit of switching plots to a character to another; one example is the Jorah/Jon Connigton or Sansa/Jeyne Poole. Stannis … morehas not one northern lord behind him in series while in books he has several (Mormonts, Glover, some Umbers, the Northern clans: Flint, Norroy and so on) and know the plan of Bolton through two spotted turncloaks. In series he has none, while it seems the Northern conspiracy with the cast of several lords will happen this season, meaning they switched Stannis's arc to Jon Snow.
For the Shireen-thing, she is at the wall with Melisandre, meaning either:
A°) Stannis really loses but didn't burn his daughter.
B°) He wins, find someway to go North (while it's freezing) and burn her.
That's maybe what Differic wanted to say. I will also point the fact GRRM said lately a plot-twist will happen with a dead character from the show; this could refer to Mance or Stannis. (aswell as others, of course)
… [view original content]
These theories are getting more and more ridiculous
If we didn't see the body, he could still be alive.
What benefit would Stannis have to the story now?
Again, if you watched some more of the second video, you would see an answer. Do you really find Preston Jacobs that boring to watch?
Mel and Davos a rallying around Jon
They are currently "rallying around" Jon's dead body. Neither of them are expecting him to come back, so they haven't committed themselves to him yet. They don't know if Stannis is dead or not yet, and could well join him again if he is.
These theories are getting more and more ridiculous....What benefit would Stannis have to the story now? Mel and Davos a rallying around Jon, theres no purpose or need for stannis anymore
From Wildlings, sure. But Jon showed that most of those Wildlings only want the same things they do. They treat them like animals because theyre different. When the real and true threat showed itself, they responded by murdering their lord commander. However, now that Jon is resurrected, maybe he will turn the Nights Watch into something to be proud of again.
I didnt say he would be redeemed, he would die there and it would be sort of fitting. Its like theon he wouldnt really be forgiven. Tough ag… moreain I dont really see any reason for him to come back
Also I dont think your giving the nights watch enough credit, they've defended the kingdom for years. They cant just disband it
Again, if you watched some more of the second video, you would see an answer. Do you really find Preston Jacobs that boring to watch?
Im not watching some youtube video, I dont see why you cant summarize how he could help the story any further? Lets face it the plot doesnt need him anymore and if alive hes another piece complicating the puzzle. I think his conclusion was good for his character, Stannis lost it all his family and his war. He made the sacrifice of his child for nothing, he killed his brother for nothing and his bought army abandoned him.
His purpose and death was to put Melisandre in a place where she could revive jon snow, given that she has lost the faith in her god.
These theories are getting more and more ridiculous
If we didn't see the body, he could still be alive.
What benefit would Sta… morennis have to the story now?
Again, if you watched some more of the second video, you would see an answer. Do you really find Preston Jacobs that boring to watch?
Mel and Davos a rallying around Jon
They are currently "rallying around" Jon's dead body. Neither of them are expecting him to come back, so they haven't committed themselves to him yet. They don't know if Stannis is dead or not yet, and could well join him again if he is.
And to be honest im okay with that, In the books ill enjoy reading about all the joncon,jeyne sublots but in a tv show it just creates pointless side stories that dont matter overall, a tv show has to simplify some factors of the book. Its not going to directly adapt to a show or movie.
Sure, I just completed how it can be perceived bad compared to the adaptation (which is up to our own pov) and to respond to you mentionning you thought Stannis's arc in books was already over aswell (which could be though, we don't know what will happen in WoW afterall).
So far in books Shireen didn't have a significant role in books so it isn't that hard; she could meet another fate by the way; one of the wilding princess hates her very much for her grayscale, calling Shireen a monster.
The series had the habit of switching plots to a character to another; one example is the Jorah/Jon Connigton or Sansa/Jeyne Poole. Stannis … morehas not one northern lord behind him in series while in books he has several (Mormonts, Glover, some Umbers, the Northern clans: Flint, Norroy and so on) and know the plan of Bolton through two spotted turncloaks. In series he has none, while it seems the Northern conspiracy with the cast of several lords will happen this season, meaning they switched Stannis's arc to Jon Snow
And to be honest im okay with that, In the books ill enjoy reading about all the joncon,jeyne sublots but in a tv show it just creates pointless side stories that dont matter overall, a tv show has to simplify some factors of the book. Its not going to directly adapt to a show or movie.
For the Shireen-thing, she is at the wall with Melisandre, meaning either:
A°) Stannis really loses but didn't burn his daughte… [view original content]
Jesus Christ! If you really want to make things more difficult than they have to... very well then, I will try to summarize it.
Stannis' plot is inconsistent for MANY reasons, and I can not mention all of them here, but here are some:
Stannis cheating on his wife despite having insane willpower and being pedantically obsessed with only doing what's right.
Shireen has golden hair despite being a Baratheon. (All Baratheons have black hair. This is an important point in the story.)
Ramsay's twenty good men sneaked deep into Stannis' camp without a single one of them getting caught.
They started many fires simultaneously and instantly, despite the extreme cold.
For some reason, they knew exactly where to find all the food and all the siege weapons.
Stannis does not fish Long Lake or the White Knife, despite the map in the episode showing us that he is on it.
Despite having lots of experience on surviving with little food, he never eats his horses. (They are not needed during a siege.)
The snow melts away unrealistically fast, during the night, and there are no ponds on the ground afterwards.
Half the army left with no one spotting them, even though they stole all the horses of the other half of the army.
The deserters took all the horses, yet afterwards, Melisandre still leaves on a horse. (What da fack?)
Stannis' army is very weakened, yet he is suicidal instead of following the White Knife to regain their strength at White Harbor.
Stannis is one of the most experienced battle commanders in Westeros, yet with no scouts, he blindly runs into battle.
He also approaches enemy territory without having his men in formation.
The mounted Boltons were encircling unmounted Stannis', yet he managed to escape the big field and retreat to the woods.
Despite acting suicidal, he retreats as if he meant to live and fight another day.
This is a theory of how Stannis can help the story further:
After the burning of Shireen, Stannis finally understood what a terrible influence Melisandre is to him. He ordered half his army to take all the horses, leave the camp and make it seem to Melisandre that they deserted Stannis. She then thinks that Stannis is a lost cause and willingly deserts him as well. The Boltons meet Stannis at Winterfell, thinking they can swiftly end the war by finishing off the rest of Stannis' weakened army. During the battle, Stannis manages to retreat and fakes his own death. He ecapes Winterfell and joins the stronger, mounted half of his army while the Boltons find the corpse of a Stannis impostor and think they have won the war. But Stannis is not defeated, and he plans a surprise attack that will secure his victory in the war.
Again, if you watched some more of the second video, you would see an answer. Do you really find Preston Jacobs that boring to watch?
… more Im not watching some youtube video, I dont see why you cant summarize how he could help the story any further? Lets face it the plot doesnt need him anymore and if alive hes another piece complicating the puzzle. I think his conclusion was good for his character, Stannis lost it all his family and his war. He made the sacrifice of his child for nothing, he killed his brother for nothing and his bought army abandoned him.
His purpose and death was to put Melisandre in a place where she could revive jon snow, given that she has lost the faith in her god.
Stannis cheating on his wife despite having insane willpower and being pedantically obsessed with only doing what's right.
If you mean fucking melisandre I dont think he enjoyed doing that, he did it purely to make the smoke baby. All duty for the realm
Shireen has golden hair despite being a Baratheon. (All Baratheons have black hair. This is an important point in the story.)
The disease could have caused that, maybe the casting could have been better for her but I dont think its that big an issue
Ramsay's twenty good men sneaked deep into Stannis' camp without a single one of them getting caught.They started many fires simultaneously and instantly, despite the extreme cold. For some reason, they knew exactly where to find all the food and all the siege weapons.
Ramseys raid being effective is a bad thing? The raid is mostly done to equal stannis starving for weeks on the road, this streamlines the process to the point where he is desperate. Though again, ramsey and his group being an effective raiding team isnt that hard to believe. Its more believable than melisandre summoning a smoke monster to assassinate the opposing leader (god I can only imagine if the showrunners had created that)
Stannis does not fish Long Lake or the White Knife, despite the map in the episode showing us that he is on it.Despite having lots of experience on surviving with little food, he never eats his horses. (They are not needed during a siege.)
he mentions butchering the horses after the snow clears and if he was on the lake so what if he didnt fish, the fish might all be dead or he could have fished and they didnt show it. And its not like stannis or any of his men are from the area
The snow melts away unrealistically fast, during the night, and there are no ponds on the ground afterwards.
...okay, so melisandres magic worked?
The deserters took all the horses, yet afterwards, Melisandre still leaves on a horse. (What da fack?)
So her finding a horse is a plothole? I...okay
The rest of the bullet points, stannis attacks so poorly because he feels lost and suicidal. Hes burned his daughter and knows he cant win now his army has abandoned him, so he attacks, hes not going to die a coward, hes going to die fighting.
Also him fleeing to the woods could have just been how the fighting went, not to mention he did an identical thing in the raid of kings landing , launched an assault that left to massive losses and him having to flee. Brienne finding him was a bit weird but I guess they wanted to give him a more TV death to a main character rather than just dying in a battle
During the battle, Stannis manages to retreat and fakes his own death. He ecapes Winterfell and joins the stronger, mounted half of his army
What the half that abandoned him? Really? I mean its not like this army is even all that loyal, its a bought army from the iron bank.
To all these points. They are all minor nitpicks and most are not even that really, there not even nitpicks, none of the major elements are even being argued as flaws, its just ridiculous to then round it off with a terrible theory about how stannis finds some missing half of his army after brienne lets him live for some reason so he can launch another attack.
Im not watching some youtube video,
Jesus Christ! If you really want to make things more difficult than they have to... very well th… moreen, I will try to summarize it.
Stannis' plot is inconsistent for MANY reasons, and I can not mention all of them here, but here are some:
* Stannis cheating on his wife despite having insane willpower and being pedantically obsessed with only doing what's right.
* Shireen has golden hair despite being a Baratheon. (All Baratheons have black hair. This is an important point in the story.)
* Ramsay's twenty good men sneaked deep into Stannis' camp without a single one of them getting caught.
* They started many fires simultaneously and instantly, despite the extreme cold.
* For some reason, they knew exactly where to find all the food and all the siege weapons.
* Stannis does not fish Long Lake or the White Knife, despite the map in the episode showing us that he is on it.
* Despi… [view original content]
Many of those are just GoT favoring storytelling over "realistic" medieval warfare (partly because visual medium has its limitations), some can be explained with magic (the snow melting fast), some of the points are questionable (Stannis being too honorable to cheat his wife - you know he is also a kinslayer?), and some are just minor details to nitpick about, like Shireen's hair. I wouldn't really call it "golden hair" anyway, dirty blonde at best, closer to light brown.
The 20 good men incident I can agree at being a bit silly.
Im not watching some youtube video,
Jesus Christ! If you really want to make things more difficult than they have to... very well th… moreen, I will try to summarize it.
Stannis' plot is inconsistent for MANY reasons, and I can not mention all of them here, but here are some:
* Stannis cheating on his wife despite having insane willpower and being pedantically obsessed with only doing what's right.
* Shireen has golden hair despite being a Baratheon. (All Baratheons have black hair. This is an important point in the story.)
* Ramsay's twenty good men sneaked deep into Stannis' camp without a single one of them getting caught.
* They started many fires simultaneously and instantly, despite the extreme cold.
* For some reason, they knew exactly where to find all the food and all the siege weapons.
* Stannis does not fish Long Lake or the White Knife, despite the map in the episode showing us that he is on it.
* Despi… [view original content]
I don't get why Differic mentions Stannis cheating his wife.. I mean he does it in books aswell. Babysmoke got his dad's face and it's mentionned he sleeps (no sex) with her for some night after Renly's death.
For the golden company, they're sellswords. Meaning their work is borrowing their swords. Breaking a contract will destroy their reputation; Who will want to hire them? No one. So it's unlikely a group of sellswords would leave, moreover for a question of morale while they're.. sellswords. Also the golden company, while very different in books, is mentionned to never break a contract.
Many of those are just GoT favoring storytelling over "realistic" medieval warfare (partly because visual medium has its limitations), some … morecan be explained with magic (the snow melting fast), some of the points are questionable (Stannis being too honorable to cheat his wife - you know he is also a kinslayer?), and some are just minor details to nitpick about, like Shireen's hair. I wouldn't really call it "golden hair" anyway, dirty blonde at best, closer to light brown.
The 20 good men incident I can agree at being a bit silly.
I don't get why Differic mentions Stannis cheating his wife.. I mean he does it in books aswell. Babysmoke got his dad's face and it's menti… moreonned he sleeps (no sex) with her for some night after Renly's death.
For the golden company, they're sellswords. Meaning their work is borrowing their swords. Breaking a contract will destroy their reputation; Who will want to hire them? No one. So it's unlikely a group of sellswords would leave, moreover for a question of morale while they're.. sellswords. Also the golden company, while very different in books, is mentionned to never break a contract.
I don't get why Differic mentions Stannis cheating his wife.. I mean he does it in books aswell. Babysmoke got his dad's face and it's menti… moreonned he sleeps (no sex) with her for some night after Renly's death.
For the golden company, they're sellswords. Meaning their work is borrowing their swords. Breaking a contract will destroy their reputation; Who will want to hire them? No one. So it's unlikely a group of sellswords would leave, moreover for a question of morale while they're.. sellswords. Also the golden company, while very different in books, is mentionned to never break a contract.
It's not him being effective that is wierd. It's the fact that he is unrealistically effective.
he mentions butchering the horses after the snow clears
No, he mentions butchering a few horses after some die. They have no horses after the snow clears.
if he was on the lake so what if he didnt fish, the fish might all be dead or he could have fished and they didnt show it. And its not like stannis or any of his men are from the area
"the fish might all be dead"? No. Ice fishing on Long Lake and White Knife is really popular. If all the fish for some weird reason died, it would be a disaster for all the fishermen and we would know about it. If they stayed to the lake and river and fished them for what it's worth, they would never be in such a desperate situation that they considered burning Shireen. Not being from the area is not an excuse for not fishing. There are several thousand men in the army. At least one of them is bound to have heard of it.
...okay, so melisandres magic worked?
It may not be any magic in play at all.
(But that is a topic for another day. Preston Jacobs has a series called "The Minds of Wolves and Robins. but i doubt you'll bother watching it.")
Since so much snow melted, there should be ponds everywhere. But HEY! Maybe it truly is magic, and Melisandre managed to make many tons of snow disappear into thin air!
So her finding a horse is a plothole? I...okay
Yes, finding a horse when there are no horses nearby to find is indeed a plot hole.
The rest of the bullet points, stannis attacks so poorly because he feels lost and suicidal. Hes burned his daughter and knows he cant win now his army has abandoned him, so he attacks, hes not going to die a coward, hes going to die fighting.
Stannis is a seasoned warrior and battle commander who has been able to keep his course in desperate situations before. As mentioned, Stannis has not lost just because half his army left, he can still follow the White Knife to White Harbor and regain his strength. Stannis is smart enough to do this yet D&D make him go kill himself along with his bannermen instead. You seriously can't see why that is inconsistent?
Also him fleeing to the woods could have just been how the fighting went
Have you any idea of what the word "encircling" means?
not to mention he did an identical thing in the raid of kings landing , launched an assault that left to massive losses and him having to flee.
Indeed he did, but at that time he was not encircled by his enemies. Also, he was not suicidal.
If you don't get the point here, D&D first decided that Stannis is suicidal (which he has no reason to be, he could still win and - as an experienced battle commander - he is smart enough to see it) and then he get's superpowers that allow him to retreat off screen as if he is not suicidal.
What the half that abandoned him? Really? I mean its not like this army is even all that loyal, its a bought army from the iron bank.
Oh my fucking god! Are misinterpreting me on purpose? Or are you blind perhaps? You took my quote completely out off context. If you actually had read the theory you so stubbornly requested me to post, you would have noticed that i said this:
"He ordered half his army to take all the horses, leave the camp and make it seem to Melisandre that they deserted Stannis."
You see now? According to the theory, half his army didn't desert, he ordered them away. They were loyal to Stannis all along.
They are all minor nitpicks and most are not even that really, there not even nitpicks, none of the major elements are even being argued as flaws
All the points I have listed are inconsistencies in the plot, and the fact that they didn't use the Lake and river and went to White Harbor instead of burning Shireen indeed involves major elements. The plot would be drastically different if some of these inconsistencies were not there.
In case you don't get the last point: Stannis never needed to burn Shireen. They could have gone to White Harbor and be fine. And Stannis woud be smart enough to see this.
Brienne could have let Stannis go for several reasons. Pod could have stopped her, or perhaps some of Stannis' men arrive to pick him up, saving him from Brienne.
Stannis cheating on his wife despite having insane willpower and being pedantically obsessed with only doing what's right.
If you me… morean fucking melisandre I dont think he enjoyed doing that, he did it purely to make the smoke baby. All duty for the realm
Shireen has golden hair despite being a Baratheon. (All Baratheons have black hair. This is an important point in the story.)
The disease could have caused that, maybe the casting could have been better for her but I dont think its that big an issue
Ramsay's twenty good men sneaked deep into Stannis' camp without a single one of them getting caught.They started many fires simultaneously and instantly, despite the extreme cold. For some reason, they knew exactly where to find all the food and all the siege weapons.
Ramseys raid being effective is a bad thing? The raid is mostly done to equal stannis starving for weeks on the road, this streamlines the process… [view original content]
some can be explained with magic (the snow melting fast)
If the snow melted that fast, there would be ponds everywhere
Stannis being too honorable to cheat his wife - you know he is also a kinslayer?
I have explained earlier that the burning of Shireen did not make sense. As to Stannis killing Renly; they were at war and Renly wanted Stannis dead as well (he was preparing to attack Stannis' 5000 infantry and 400 cavalry with an army of 10 000 mounted lancers). But since Renly was the one who betrayed his older brother, Stannis was in the right.
I wouldn't really call it "golden hair"
Her hair shines pretty golden in the light. But she is most often in the shade.
Many of those are just GoT favoring storytelling over "realistic" medieval warfare (partly because visual medium has its limitations), some … morecan be explained with magic (the snow melting fast), some of the points are questionable (Stannis being too honorable to cheat his wife - you know he is also a kinslayer?), and some are just minor details to nitpick about, like Shireen's hair. I wouldn't really call it "golden hair" anyway, dirty blonde at best, closer to light brown.
The 20 good men incident I can agree at being a bit silly.
"He ordered half his army to take all the horses, leave the camp and make it seem to Melisandre that they deserted Stannis."
You see now? According to the theory, half his army didn't desert, he ordered them away. They were loyal to Stannis all along.
Wait so off camera stannis for some reason made melisandre who he trusted enough to burn his own daughter not trust him by dividing his army in half and then charges only half of his army at the enemy? All so he can meet up with the other half of his army later?
How does that make more sense than half his army loosing faith in him over what he did and there poor situation
In case you don't get the last point: Stannis never needed to burn Shireen. They could have gone to White Harbor and be fine. And Stannis woud be smart enough to see this.
Davos keeps telling stannis to go back to castle black but he wont, he wants to push onto winterfell and win, the fact hes so short on time and wants to keep moving forward are part of the reason he burns shireen. Stannis doesnt want to be distracted anymore by anything, he regularly says this is their only window to make a move on winterfell before the snow sets in. There is also the fact non of these locations were ever mentioned on the show, it would mean making a set for each of them and hiring several new actors so stannis can not die to do....something.
Also non of these are inconsistencies to the Stannis character, him letting mel have to much influence and making a horrible decision was a good conclusion to his character, especially as the effects are now being seen throughout the show: Mel reviving jon snow for example, her disillusion with her god and giving ramsey a confidence boost to feel he can rule the north without his dad.
Your writing and acting like Stannis should be perfect in everything he does, stannis throughout the story is getting more and more rattled, hes lost the battle of kings landing, had to hire and army and incure debt and now its getting harder and harder to get to winterfell. Hes not acting in the best frame of mind, hes getting more and more desperate. Throughout the books and show hes let mel burn people over lesser issues, hes become more and more trusting of this god and it led him to his actions in the storm
Ramseys raid being effective is a bad thing?
It's not him being effective that is wierd. It's the fact that he is unrealistically ef… morefective.
he mentions butchering the horses after the snow clears
No, he mentions butchering a few horses after some die. They have no horses after the snow clears.
if he was on the lake so what if he didnt fish, the fish might all be dead or he could have fished and they didnt show it. And its not like stannis or any of his men are from the area
"the fish might all be dead"? No. Ice fishing on Long Lake and White Knife is really popular. If all the fish for some weird reason died, it would be a disaster for all the fishermen and we would know about it. If they stayed to the lake and river and fished them for what it's worth, they would never be in such a desperate situation that they considered burning Shireen. Not being from the area is not an excuse for not fishing. There are… [view original content]
I think it is. I will check the video today and will tell you if it is them or not.
Dude.. The two shadows has his face, Melisandre mentionned she can't make shadow's babies with Stannis anymore because "his fire is low" and asks Davos if he would want to.. It is mentionned he sleeps with her at night for some time aswell. It's obvious here.
About the ponds, that's more like a technical issue in the filming process. Making every set flooding with water would not be worth it, you can just assume the melting process done by god is different than a normal one.
And yeah it was war with Stannis and Renly, but the way he killed him was not honorable. I don't hold that against him though, sometimes dishonorable deeds are needed.
And again, the fact that they managed to cast such a talented child actor to play Shireen was much more important to me than the color of her hair.
some can be explained with magic (the snow melting fast)
If the snow melted that fast, there would be ponds everywhere
Stannis… more being too honorable to cheat his wife - you know he is also a kinslayer?
I have explained earlier that the burning of Shireen did not make sense. As to Stannis killing Renly; they were at war and Renly wanted Stannis dead as well (he was preparing to attack Stannis' 5000 infantry and 400 cavalry with an army of 10 000 mounted lancers). But since Renly was the one who betrayed his older brother, Stannis was in the right.
I wouldn't really call it "golden hair"
Her hair shines pretty golden in the light. But she is most often in the shade.
About the ponds, that's more like a technical issue in the filming process.
It's still another mistake.
you can just assume the melting process done by god is different than a normal one.
The episode started with Melisandre looking at icicles melting normally into water.
it was war with Stannis and Renly, but the way he killed him was not honorable.
Oh, but it was. Stannis had offered Renly mercy and all his positions and titles back if he ended his treason by dawn. Renly blatantly refused, and Stannis - as he said he would do in that case - destroyed Renly just at dawn.
the fact that they managed to cast such a talented child actor to play Shireen was much more important to me than the color of her hair.
They could just have given her a wig or dyed her hair black like Sophie Turner who plays Sansa.
About the ponds, that's more like a technical issue in the filming process. Making every set flooding with water would not be worth it, you … morecan just assume the melting process done by god is different than a normal one.
And yeah it was war with Stannis and Renly, but the way he killed him was not honorable. I don't hold that against him though, sometimes dishonorable deeds are needed.
And again, the fact that they managed to cast such a talented child actor to play Shireen was much more important to me than the color of her hair.
In a Clash of Kings, the shadow assassins look like actual shadows and don't have faces at all. Making it a smoke monster with a face that Brienne for some reason thinks looks like Stannis is entirely made up in the show.
Now, Davos did recognize the second shadow, he knew the man who casts shadows with that shape, and it could be Stannis that he is referring to. But Melisandre giving birth to the shadow could just be a trick. It could all just be her making illusions for Davos so he will believe she has powers. Preston Jacobs has made a very interesting series that involves the topic of magic in asoiaf:
Yes, Melisandre sleeps in Stannis' tent, but it's not obvious that they are having sex. She is there to help him sleep, and she is supposedly the only one who can sooth him. How she does it? No one know for sure but her and possibly also Stannis.
I think it is. I will check the video today and will tell you if it is them or not.
Dude.. The two shadows has his face, Melisandre menti… moreonned she can't make shadow's babies with Stannis anymore because "his fire is low" and asks Davos if he would want to.. It is mentionned he sleeps with her at night for some time aswell. It's obvious here.
If they are illusions, how could these kill Renly/the one who was in Storm's End? Preston Jacobs, with all the nice theories he does, isn't the writer. While GRRM isn't involved anymore in the series in season 2 he was deeply involved in it; and it's pretty obvious he birthed those two shadows. He's heavily injured physically after this, getting thiner and all.
In a Clash of Kings, the shadow assassins look like actual shadows and don't have faces at all. Making it a smoke monster with a face that B… morerienne for some reason thinks looks like Stannis is entirely made up in the show.
Now, Davos did recognize the second shadow, he knew the man who casts shadows with that shape, and it could be Stannis that he is referring to. But Melisandre giving birth to the shadow could just be a trick. It could all just be her making illusions for Davos so he will believe she has powers. Preston Jacobs has made a very interesting series that involves the topic of magic in asoiaf:
Yes, Melisandre sleeps in Stannis' tent, but it's not obvious that they are having sex. She is there to help him sleep, and she is supposedly the only one who can sooth him. How she does it? No one know for sure but her and possibly also Stannis.
Preston Jacobs explains it, and it is definitely worth watching (it will fundamentally change the way you interpret the story.), but I will give you a short explanation:
During the night after the parley, Melisandre gave Stannis a potion that enhances warging abilities. Stannis warged thin air as he fell asleep, and his mind was inside what looked like "the king's shadow". Stannis flies through the air as the shadow and thinks that what he experienced was a dream. He enters Renly's tent and kills him (the air pressure from the shadow slits his throat). He then wakes up in his own body again, drained form the ordeal of his out of body experience.
Cortnay Penrose was never killed by any shadow. He was thrown form the walls by his own guards. You may remember what Stannis said: "He throws my pardon in my face. Aye, and throws his life away in the bargain, and the lives of every man inside those walls." The men in the garrison hated Penrose for wanting to sacrifice them for no reason. So they killed him and accepted Stannis' pardon.
If they are illusions, how could these kill Renly/the one who was in Storm's End? Preston Jacobs, with all the nice theories he does, isn't … morethe writer. While GRRM isn't involved anymore in the series in season 2 he was deeply involved in it; and it's pretty obvious he birthed those two shadows. He's heavily injured physically after this, getting thiner and all.
Comments
Oh okay you want them both to join forces?
So far you've provided no evidence into why the show plot was bad apart from potential theories about what stannis could do in future books
Well, there we differ. You can accept plot holes, I can't. Any contradiction makes the story impossible, even in an alternate universe with different physical laws. I do as Euclid; once I find one wrong element in a concept, I discard it entirely.
You must not enjoy very much.....
Your still not telling me what these plot holes are or how they contradict anything the show has done so far
Fair enough, though I must say you'll miss much fun with that kind of attitude.
Your not getting what im saying, I think anyone who stays at the wall is going to die to the wights, they have to break through at some point. Stannis dying there trying to defend the realm and doing his duty fits the character, Id rather davos help jon or something.
I personally think the Nights Watch is defunct and should be disbanded period. That being said, if I wasnt already sure he was dead and not coming back, would I want to see Stannis trying to redeem himself as Lord Commander, and dying honorably trying to defend the wall? No. I dont think he can be redeemed for choosing to burn his own child to death just so he can be king. People think he's so honorable but that act says otherwise. I certainly dont want Davos to die, I was only saying that I would choose him to follow over Stannis. But if The Nights Watch somehow does go on after this, then I think Davos would be a good leader of it.
Of course. I want anyone who has a quarrel with the Boltons to unite against them. They are the most misanthropic house in Westeros and may even be in league with the Others. (The Bolt-on theory.)
As I have stated earlier, i think the show plot is bad since it's inconsistent, but if you don't mind the contradictions, it's fine. Btw. the "potential theories about what stannis could do in future books" are not limited to the books if Stannis is alive in the show, and are not used as "evidence into why the show plot was bad". From where did you get that?
The series had the habit of switching plots to a character to another; one example is the Jorah/Jon Connigton or Sansa/Jeyne Poole. Stannis has not one northern lord behind him in series while in books he has several (Mormonts, Glover, some Umbers, the Northern clans: Flint, Norroy and so on) and know the plan of Bolton through two spotted turncloaks. In series he has none, while it seems the Northern conspiracy with the cast of several lords will happen this season, meaning they switched Stannis's arc to Jon Snow.
For the Shireen-thing, she is at the wall with Melisandre, meaning either:
A°) Stannis really loses but didn't burn his daughter.
B°) He wins, find someway to go North (while it's freezing) and burn her.
That's maybe what Differic wanted to say. I will also point the fact GRRM said lately a plot-twist will happen with a dead character from the show; this could refer to Mance or Stannis. (aswell as others, of course)
Still if it happens to be true, one doesn't believe that Stannis will be king and live happily ever after (he saw his death and so far prophecies until today always worked in asoiaf) but that his role wouldn't be simply over and last a bit longer than his series-counterpart.
Without that attitude, you will miss the exciting world of rigorous mathematics.
What are you saying? Rigorous mathematics doesn't sound any fun to you? Well, an inconsistent story sounds equally boring to me.
I don't hate the Sand Snakes actors because I don't think it is their fault. They aren't writing their lines.
Duncan Traitor Scene > Dorne Traitor Scene
Royland Traitor Scene < Dorne Traitor Scene
ok... scratch that lolol
Yeah. Everyone was joking about how stupid are Harrington's attempts to hide the fact that he'll be resurrected.
I didnt say he would be redeemed, he would die there and it would be sort of fitting. Its like theon he wouldnt really be forgiven. Tough again I dont really see any reason for him to come back
Also I dont think your giving the nights watch enough credit, they've defended the kingdom for years. They cant just disband it
Ellaria, Middle and Little snake actually seem like okay actors, the oldest one is just bad with her delivery.
Two things could have convinced Roose that Stannis is dead:
A) He saw the corpse of a man he thought was Stannis
If A is true, the corpse Roose saw could be the corpse of a Stannis impostor, arranged by Stannis himself (to trick the Boltons into believing that he is no longer a threat) or by Ramsay (he couldn't find Stannis' body, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to fake bodies before (at least in the books)).
If B is true, the notion that Stannis is dead could just be a false rumor, started by Bolton men seeing the corpse of a Stannis impostor or by Ramsay (he couldn't confirm Stannis' death, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to lie before).
These theories are getting more and more ridiculous....What benefit would Stannis have to the story now? Mel and Davos a rallying around Jon, theres no purpose or need for stannis anymore
And to be honest im okay with that, In the books ill enjoy reading about all the joncon,jeyne sublots but in a tv show it just creates pointless side stories that dont matter overall, a tv show has to simplify some factors of the book. Its not going to directly adapt to a show or movie.
To me they made shireen a much better character in the show and I also feel that both stannis and mel burning her and more importantly it not working set up Mel being so despondent about her god that she can revive jon snow.
If we didn't see the body, he could still be alive.
Again, if you watched some more of the second video, you would see an answer. Do you really find Preston Jacobs that boring to watch?
They are currently "rallying around" Jon's dead body. Neither of them are expecting him to come back, so they haven't committed themselves to him yet. They don't know if Stannis is dead or not yet, and could well join him again if he is.
Yep, faster than we expected which Im totally fine with. They have a lot of ground to cover in what, only 20 more episode?
From Wildlings, sure. But Jon showed that most of those Wildlings only want the same things they do. They treat them like animals because theyre different. When the real and true threat showed itself, they responded by murdering their lord commander. However, now that Jon is resurrected, maybe he will turn the Nights Watch into something to be proud of again.
Im not watching some youtube video, I dont see why you cant summarize how he could help the story any further? Lets face it the plot doesnt need him anymore and if alive hes another piece complicating the puzzle. I think his conclusion was good for his character, Stannis lost it all his family and his war. He made the sacrifice of his child for nothing, he killed his brother for nothing and his bought army abandoned him.
His purpose and death was to put Melisandre in a place where she could revive jon snow, given that she has lost the faith in her god.
Sure, I just completed how it can be perceived bad compared to the adaptation (which is up to our own pov) and to respond to you mentionning you thought Stannis's arc in books was already over aswell (which could be though, we don't know what will happen in WoW afterall).
So far in books Shireen didn't have a significant role in books so it isn't that hard; she could meet another fate by the way; one of the wilding princess hates her very much for her grayscale, calling Shireen a monster.
Jesus Christ! If you really want to make things more difficult than they have to... very well then, I will try to summarize it.
Stannis' plot is inconsistent for MANY reasons, and I can not mention all of them here, but here are some:
Stannis cheating on his wife despite having insane willpower and being pedantically obsessed with only doing what's right.
Shireen has golden hair despite being a Baratheon. (All Baratheons have black hair. This is an important point in the story.)
Ramsay's twenty good men sneaked deep into Stannis' camp without a single one of them getting caught.
They started many fires simultaneously and instantly, despite the extreme cold.
For some reason, they knew exactly where to find all the food and all the siege weapons.
Stannis does not fish Long Lake or the White Knife, despite the map in the episode showing us that he is on it.
Despite having lots of experience on surviving with little food, he never eats his horses. (They are not needed during a siege.)
The snow melts away unrealistically fast, during the night, and there are no ponds on the ground afterwards.
Half the army left with no one spotting them, even though they stole all the horses of the other half of the army.
The deserters took all the horses, yet afterwards, Melisandre still leaves on a horse. (What da fack?)
Stannis' army is very weakened, yet he is suicidal instead of following the White Knife to regain their strength at White Harbor.
Stannis is one of the most experienced battle commanders in Westeros, yet with no scouts, he blindly runs into battle.
He also approaches enemy territory without having his men in formation.
The mounted Boltons were encircling unmounted Stannis', yet he managed to escape the big field and retreat to the woods.
Despite acting suicidal, he retreats as if he meant to live and fight another day.
This is a theory of how Stannis can help the story further:
After the burning of Shireen, Stannis finally understood what a terrible influence Melisandre is to him. He ordered half his army to take all the horses, leave the camp and make it seem to Melisandre that they deserted Stannis. She then thinks that Stannis is a lost cause and willingly deserts him as well. The Boltons meet Stannis at Winterfell, thinking they can swiftly end the war by finishing off the rest of Stannis' weakened army. During the battle, Stannis manages to retreat and fakes his own death. He ecapes Winterfell and joins the stronger, mounted half of his army while the Boltons find the corpse of a Stannis impostor and think they have won the war. But Stannis is not defeated, and he plans a surprise attack that will secure his victory in the war.
If you mean fucking melisandre I dont think he enjoyed doing that, he did it purely to make the smoke baby. All duty for the realm
The disease could have caused that, maybe the casting could have been better for her but I dont think its that big an issue
Ramseys raid being effective is a bad thing? The raid is mostly done to equal stannis starving for weeks on the road, this streamlines the process to the point where he is desperate. Though again, ramsey and his group being an effective raiding team isnt that hard to believe. Its more believable than melisandre summoning a smoke monster to assassinate the opposing leader (god I can only imagine if the showrunners had created that)
he mentions butchering the horses after the snow clears and if he was on the lake so what if he didnt fish, the fish might all be dead or he could have fished and they didnt show it. And its not like stannis or any of his men are from the area
...okay, so melisandres magic worked?
So her finding a horse is a plothole? I...okay
The rest of the bullet points, stannis attacks so poorly because he feels lost and suicidal. Hes burned his daughter and knows he cant win now his army has abandoned him, so he attacks, hes not going to die a coward, hes going to die fighting.
Also him fleeing to the woods could have just been how the fighting went, not to mention he did an identical thing in the raid of kings landing , launched an assault that left to massive losses and him having to flee. Brienne finding him was a bit weird but I guess they wanted to give him a more TV death to a main character rather than just dying in a battle
What the half that abandoned him? Really? I mean its not like this army is even all that loyal, its a bought army from the iron bank.
To all these points. They are all minor nitpicks and most are not even that really, there not even nitpicks, none of the major elements are even being argued as flaws, its just ridiculous to then round it off with a terrible theory about how stannis finds some missing half of his army after brienne lets him live for some reason so he can launch another attack.
Many of those are just GoT favoring storytelling over "realistic" medieval warfare (partly because visual medium has its limitations), some can be explained with magic (the snow melting fast), some of the points are questionable (Stannis being too honorable to cheat his wife - you know he is also a kinslayer?), and some are just minor details to nitpick about, like Shireen's hair. I wouldn't really call it "golden hair" anyway, dirty blonde at best, closer to light brown.
The 20 good men incident I can agree at being a bit silly.
I don't get why Differic mentions Stannis cheating his wife.. I mean he does it in books aswell. Babysmoke got his dad's face and it's mentionned he sleeps (no sex) with her for some night after Renly's death.
For the golden company, they're sellswords. Meaning their work is borrowing their swords. Breaking a contract will destroy their reputation; Who will want to hire them? No one. So it's unlikely a group of sellswords would leave, moreover for a question of morale while they're.. sellswords. Also the golden company, while very different in books, is mentionned to never break a contract.
We don't know that. It's neither mentioned or seen explicitly.
Was it mentioned that it was Golden Company? A genuine question because I don't remember.
It's not him being effective that is wierd. It's the fact that he is unrealistically effective.
No, he mentions butchering a few horses after some die. They have no horses after the snow clears.
"the fish might all be dead"? No. Ice fishing on Long Lake and White Knife is really popular. If all the fish for some weird reason died, it would be a disaster for all the fishermen and we would know about it. If they stayed to the lake and river and fished them for what it's worth, they would never be in such a desperate situation that they considered burning Shireen. Not being from the area is not an excuse for not fishing. There are several thousand men in the army. At least one of them is bound to have heard of it.
It may not be any magic in play at all.
(But that is a topic for another day. Preston Jacobs has a series called "The Minds of Wolves and Robins. but i doubt you'll bother watching it.")
Since so much snow melted, there should be ponds everywhere. But HEY! Maybe it truly is magic, and Melisandre managed to make many tons of snow disappear into thin air!
Yes, finding a horse when there are no horses nearby to find is indeed a plot hole.
Stannis is a seasoned warrior and battle commander who has been able to keep his course in desperate situations before. As mentioned, Stannis has not lost just because half his army left, he can still follow the White Knife to White Harbor and regain his strength. Stannis is smart enough to do this yet D&D make him go kill himself along with his bannermen instead. You seriously can't see why that is inconsistent?
Have you any idea of what the word "encircling" means?
Indeed he did, but at that time he was not encircled by his enemies. Also, he was not suicidal.
If you don't get the point here, D&D first decided that Stannis is suicidal (which he has no reason to be, he could still win and - as an experienced battle commander - he is smart enough to see it) and then he get's superpowers that allow him to retreat off screen as if he is not suicidal.
Oh my fucking god! Are misinterpreting me on purpose? Or are you blind perhaps? You took my quote completely out off context. If you actually had read the theory you so stubbornly requested me to post, you would have noticed that i said this:
"He ordered half his army to take all the horses, leave the camp and make it seem to Melisandre that they deserted Stannis."
You see now? According to the theory, half his army didn't desert, he ordered them away. They were loyal to Stannis all along.
All the points I have listed are inconsistencies in the plot, and the fact that they didn't use the Lake and river and went to White Harbor instead of burning Shireen indeed involves major elements. The plot would be drastically different if some of these inconsistencies were not there.
In case you don't get the last point: Stannis never needed to burn Shireen. They could have gone to White Harbor and be fine. And Stannis woud be smart enough to see this.
Brienne could have let Stannis go for several reasons. Pod could have stopped her, or perhaps some of Stannis' men arrive to pick him up, saving him from Brienne.
I think Davos recommended the golden company to Stannis, but I don't think it was ever mentioned explicitly that he hired them.
If the snow melted that fast, there would be ponds everywhere
I have explained earlier that the burning of Shireen did not make sense. As to Stannis killing Renly; they were at war and Renly wanted Stannis dead as well (he was preparing to attack Stannis' 5000 infantry and 400 cavalry with an army of 10 000 mounted lancers). But since Renly was the one who betrayed his older brother, Stannis was in the right.
Her hair shines pretty golden in the light. But she is most often in the shade.
Wait so off camera stannis for some reason made melisandre who he trusted enough to burn his own daughter not trust him by dividing his army in half and then charges only half of his army at the enemy? All so he can meet up with the other half of his army later?
How does that make more sense than half his army loosing faith in him over what he did and there poor situation
Davos keeps telling stannis to go back to castle black but he wont, he wants to push onto winterfell and win, the fact hes so short on time and wants to keep moving forward are part of the reason he burns shireen. Stannis doesnt want to be distracted anymore by anything, he regularly says this is their only window to make a move on winterfell before the snow sets in. There is also the fact non of these locations were ever mentioned on the show, it would mean making a set for each of them and hiring several new actors so stannis can not die to do....something.
Also non of these are inconsistencies to the Stannis character, him letting mel have to much influence and making a horrible decision was a good conclusion to his character, especially as the effects are now being seen throughout the show: Mel reviving jon snow for example, her disillusion with her god and giving ramsey a confidence boost to feel he can rule the north without his dad.
Your writing and acting like Stannis should be perfect in everything he does, stannis throughout the story is getting more and more rattled, hes lost the battle of kings landing, had to hire and army and incure debt and now its getting harder and harder to get to winterfell. Hes not acting in the best frame of mind, hes getting more and more desperate. Throughout the books and show hes let mel burn people over lesser issues, hes become more and more trusting of this god and it led him to his actions in the storm
I think it is. I will check the video today and will tell you if it is them or not.
Dude.. The two shadows has his face, Melisandre mentionned she can't make shadow's babies with Stannis anymore because "his fire is low" and asks Davos if he would want to.. It is mentionned he sleeps with her at night for some time aswell. It's obvious here.
About the ponds, that's more like a technical issue in the filming process. Making every set flooding with water would not be worth it, you can just assume the melting process done by god is different than a normal one.
And yeah it was war with Stannis and Renly, but the way he killed him was not honorable. I don't hold that against him though, sometimes dishonorable deeds are needed.
And again, the fact that they managed to cast such a talented child actor to play Shireen was much more important to me than the color of her hair.
It's still another mistake.
The episode started with Melisandre looking at icicles melting normally into water.
Oh, but it was. Stannis had offered Renly mercy and all his positions and titles back if he ended his treason by dawn. Renly blatantly refused, and Stannis - as he said he would do in that case - destroyed Renly just at dawn.
They could just have given her a wig or dyed her hair black like Sophie Turner who plays Sansa.
In a Clash of Kings, the shadow assassins look like actual shadows and don't have faces at all. Making it a smoke monster with a face that Brienne for some reason thinks looks like Stannis is entirely made up in the show.
Now, Davos did recognize the second shadow, he knew the man who casts shadows with that shape, and it could be Stannis that he is referring to. But Melisandre giving birth to the shadow could just be a trick. It could all just be her making illusions for Davos so he will believe she has powers. Preston Jacobs has made a very interesting series that involves the topic of magic in asoiaf:
Yes, Melisandre sleeps in Stannis' tent, but it's not obvious that they are having sex. She is there to help him sleep, and she is supposedly the only one who can sooth him. How she does it? No one know for sure but her and possibly also Stannis.
If they are illusions, how could these kill Renly/the one who was in Storm's End? Preston Jacobs, with all the nice theories he does, isn't the writer. While GRRM isn't involved anymore in the series in season 2 he was deeply involved in it; and it's pretty obvious he birthed those two shadows. He's heavily injured physically after this, getting thiner and all.
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Preston Jacobs explains it, and it is definitely worth watching (it will fundamentally change the way you interpret the story.), but I will give you a short explanation:
During the night after the parley, Melisandre gave Stannis a potion that enhances warging abilities. Stannis warged thin air as he fell asleep, and his mind was inside what looked like "the king's shadow". Stannis flies through the air as the shadow and thinks that what he experienced was a dream. He enters Renly's tent and kills him (the air pressure from the shadow slits his throat). He then wakes up in his own body again, drained form the ordeal of his out of body experience.
Cortnay Penrose was never killed by any shadow. He was thrown form the walls by his own guards. You may remember what Stannis said: "He throws my pardon in my face. Aye, and throws his life away in the bargain, and the lives of every man inside those walls." The men in the garrison hated Penrose for wanting to sacrifice them for no reason. So they killed him and accepted Stannis' pardon.