I'll refrain from posting quotes I find funny/humorous, as we'll be here all day if I do, and stick to some more serious/true quotes:
"Th… moreere are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job.'" Terrence Fletcher, Whiplash
"In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." Benjamin Franklin (both humorous and true)
"Friends can help each other. A true friend is someone who lets you have total freedom to be yourself, and especially to feel. Or, not feel. Whatever you happen to be feeling at the moment is fine with them. That's what real love amounts to, letting a person be what he really is." Jim Morrison
"How do I live without the ones I love? / Time still turns the pages of the book it's burned / Place and time always on my mind / I have so much to say but you're so far away." So Far Away, Avenged Sevenfold
"I love you, you were ready / The pain is strong and urges rise / But I'll see … [view original content]
"The instant formal government is abolished, society begins to act. A general association takes place and common interest produces common security." --Thomas Paine
"Civic power can have no right except as this is derived from the individual right of each man to protect himself and his property. The legi… moreslative and executive power used by government to protect property is nothing except the natural power of each man resigned into the hands of the community…and it is justified merely because it is a better way of protecting natural right than the self-help to which each man is naturally entitled." - John Locke.
“I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves ; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.” - Thomas Jefferson.
"Private property began the instant somebody had a mind of his own." - E. E. Cummings.
"The instant formal government is abolished, society begins to act. A general association takes place and common interest produces common security." --Thomas Paine
"Property is theft!" -- P.J. Proudhon
“State is the name of the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies; and this lie slips from its mouth: 'I, the state, am the people.” --Friedrich Nietzsche
"Science and industry, knowledge and application, discovery and practical realization leading to new discoveries, cunning of brain and of hand, toil of mind and muscle--all work together. Each discovery, each advance, each increase in the sum of human riches, owes its being to the physical and mental travail of the past and the present. By what right then can any one whatever appropriate the least morsel of this immense whole and say--This is mine, not yours?" --Pyotr Kropotkin
“I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves ; and if we think them not enlightened enough to … moreexercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.” - Thomas Jefferson.
"Private property began the instant somebody had a mind of his own." - E. E. Cummings.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat.
“It is also interesting to observe that communal ownership violates every instinct of human nature. It destroys initiative, nullifies free agency, suppresses inventive exploration, minimizes the dignity of the individual and makes a god out of an abstract thing called "The State"- to which is delegated complete, unrestricted control over life, liberty and property. . . Like so many other weak systems of government, it can survive only in an atmosphere of a slave state, ruled by a king or a dictator.” - W. Cleon Skousen.
“State is the name of the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies; and this lie slips from its mouth: 'I, the state, am the people.” -… more-Friedrich Nietzsche
"Science and industry, knowledge and application, discovery and practical realization leading to new discoveries, cunning of brain and of hand, toil of mind and muscle--all work together. Each discovery, each advance, each increase in the sum of human riches, owes its being to the physical and mental travail of the past and the present. By what right then can any one whatever appropriate the least morsel of this immense whole and say--This is mine, not yours?" --Pyotr Kropotkin
Bastiat is demonstrably wrong when you consider that communal, occupancy & use property has been the dominant form since the dawn of man. Therefore, I'll have to refer to Proudhon's famous diss of Bastiat.
"Your intelligence is asleep, or rather it has never been awake...You are a man for whom logic does not exist...You do not hear anything, you do not understand anything...Your are without philosophy, without science, without humanity...Your ability to reason, like your ability to pay attention and make comparisons is zero...Scientifically, Mr. Bastiat, you are a dead man."
It is also interesting to observe that communal ownership violates every instinct of human nature. It destroys initiative, nullifies free agency, suppresses inventive exploration, minimizes the dignity of the individual and makes a god out of an abstract thing called "The State"- to which is delegated complete, unrestricted control over life, liberty and property. . . Like so many other weak systems of government, it can survive only in an atmosphere of a slave state, ruled by a king or a dictator.” - W. Cleon Skousen.
I agree with him about state socialism, but he fails to differentiate between ownership of the means of production y the state and ownership by the workers. In fact, I'd contest that the same can be said about Capitalism, as there's no way it could exist without state subsidy and aggression.
"We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality.” -- Mikhail Balunin, father of Anarcho-Collectivism.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property exis… moreted beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat.
“It is also interesting to observe that communal ownership violates every instinct of human nature. It destroys initiative, nullifies free agency, suppresses inventive exploration, minimizes the dignity of the individual and makes a god out of an abstract thing called "The State"- to which is delegated complete, unrestricted control over life, liberty and property. . . Like so many other weak systems of government, it can survive only in an atmosphere of a slave state, ruled by a king or a dictator.” - W. Cleon Skousen.
Bastiat is demonstrably wrong when you consider that communal, occupancy & use property has been the dominant form since the dawn of man.
At the same time, for the time Western Civilization has been in development, dating back at least to the time of the Romans and probably further should I look, private property has existed in various forms. Particularly in the form of land lords. Granted, life and liberty never meant much to despots, but their property was something they cherished dearly. Private property and communal property have seemingly always been at war.
I agree with him about state socialism, but he fails to differentiate between ownership of the means of production y the state and ownership by the workers.
I would like for you, if you would, to explain to me how collective ownership of this sort is supposed to work. I could look it up, but that would require a lot of sifting through info. I'd rather hear your thoughts on the matter directly.
In fact, I'd contest that the same can be said about Capitalism, as there's no way it could exist without state subsidy and aggression.
I disagree that Capitalism can't exist without state subsidy. Capitalism focuses around private trade and private control of markets. In a basic example we can see Capitalism at work without state intervention; two people engage in a private sale. The state was in no way involved in this private transaction. In fact, subsidization of businesses by the state extends beyond the realm of Capitalism by the very nature of the intervention.
If by subsidization you were meaning more along the lines of allowance, then I would agree. Capitalism can only exist if the state allows it to, however, when the state allows it to it also means that the state isn't intervening. Either way it falls on the state to decide the economic system, be it Capitalism or otherwise.
As for aggression, I wasn't sure if you meant state aggression or aggression in general.
"We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality.” -- Mikhail Balunin, father of Anarcho-Collectivism.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence.
Bastiat is demonstrably wrong when you consider that communal, occupancy & use property has been the dominant form since the dawn of man… more. Therefore, I'll have to refer to Proudhon's famous diss of Bastiat.
"Your intelligence is asleep, or rather it has never been awake...You are a man for whom logic does not exist...You do not hear anything, you do not understand anything...Your are without philosophy, without science, without humanity...Your ability to reason, like your ability to pay attention and make comparisons is zero...Scientifically, Mr. Bastiat, you are a dead man."
It is also interesting to observe that communal ownership violates every instinct of human nature. It destroys initiative, nullifies free agency, suppresses inventive exploration, minimizes the dignity of the individual and makes a god out of an abstract thing called "The State"- to which is delegated complete, unrestricted control over life, liberty and pro… [view original content]
I'd like to hit some of these points, but it's probably time for me to hit the hay. Be on the lookout for a reply tomorrow morning or later on in the day.
Bastiat is demonstrably wrong when you consider that communal, occupancy & use property has been the dominant form since the dawn of man… more.
At the same time, for the time Western Civilization has been in development, dating back at least to the time of the Romans and probably further should I look, private property has existed in various forms. Particularly in the form of land lords. Granted, life and liberty never meant much to despots, but their property was something they cherished dearly. Private property and communal property have seemingly always been at war.
I agree with him about state socialism, but he fails to differentiate between ownership of the means of production y the state and ownership by the workers.
I would like for you, if you would, to explain to me how collective ownership of this sort is supposed to work. I could look it up, but that would require a lot of sifting through info. I'd rather hear y… [view original content]
I would like for you, if you would, to explain to me how collective ownership of this sort is supposed to work. I could look it up, bIt that would require a lot of sifting through info, I'd rather hear your thoughts on the matter directly.
Put simply, collective ownership by workers (a.k.a. Worker Self-Management) is the abolition of hierarchy in the workplace. The capitalist mode of production is built on rigid hierarchy of workers. It's a system in which I sell my labor to the bourgeoisie and only receive a fraction of the value of my labor, the rest of it going to the bosses in the form of surplus value. Worker self-management does away with all of this. In (non-state) Socialism, a worker owns a part of their factory, farm or hotel and earns the full value of their labor, rather than a small fraction of it. Since all the workers in a factory are partial owners, decisions are made democratically by the workers themselves, rather than imposed from above by people who never set foot on the factory floor. This doesn't necessarily mean there's no authority, but it will form organically, rather than being imposed from above. Workers with experience in certain fields will be recognized as an authority in that particular task and other workers will look to them for guidance. As Bakunin said "Against all authority? Perish the thought! I consider the shoemaker an authority on matters pertaining to shoes!" There's historical precedent for this line of thinking. During the Spanish Civil War, tha anarchists kept the Catalonian war economy going like clockwork until the Stalinists killed them off and took the factories (subsequently running them into the ground). In fact, even the hospitals became voluntarily collectives and were acclaimed as providing some of the best healthcare in Spain. All of that happened voluntarily without markets or wage labor. Workers produced what they could and took what they needed.
My ideal society would involve the rise of worker co-ops, voluntary collective farms and sole proprietorships/family businesses.
disagree that Capitalism can't exist without state subsidy. Capitalism focuses around private trade and private control of markets. In a basic example we can see Capitalism at work without state intervention; two people engage in a private sale. The state was in no way involved in this private transaction. In fact, subsidization of businesses by the state extends beyond the realm of Capitalism by the very nature of the intervention.
Ah, but you're conflating markets with Capitalism. This is a favorite hobby of Libertarian thinkers like Hayek and Mises, but they are not the same thing. Markets are the system of voluntary exchange between people. We Socialists are divided on how we feel about them, but I quite like markets, which is why I'd consider myself a Market Socialist. Capitalist on the other hand, is a term created by Socialists (I think it was Marx). It's an economic system in which the means of production are owned by the bourgeois, capitalist class. There's no way that such a system could exist, without the state, it's violence and it's subsidies. Socialism, without all the historical baggage and propoganda is simply an economic system in which the means of production are controlled by the workers themselves. Socialism doesn't depend on the state because it's based on common interest and security of the working class, rather than exploiting the many to enrich the few.
If by subsidization you were meaning more along the lines of allowance, then I would agree. Capitalism can only exist if the state allows it to, however, when the state allows it to it also means that the state isn't intervening. Either way it falls on the state to decide the economic system, be it Capitalism or otherwise.
Oh boy, "The Iron Fist Behind the Invisible Hand is going to throw you for a loop! Suffice to say, the government does much more tha simply "allow" Capitalism to exist. It enforces ridiculous patents that stifle competition, subsidizes shipping costs, gives the private sector sweetheart prices on various projects, restricts striking, allows companies to invade your privacy and most importantly, the government violently enforces Capitalist property norms (yet greedily hordes property for itself.). That's not even mentioning the tremendous theft committed against peasants and small landowners by the state hundreds of years ago. This goes far, far, far beyond Locke's vision for government as an entity that serves the people and protects personal property.
Bastiat is demonstrably wrong when you consider that communal, occupancy & use property has been the dominant form since the dawn of man… more.
At the same time, for the time Western Civilization has been in development, dating back at least to the time of the Romans and probably further should I look, private property has existed in various forms. Particularly in the form of land lords. Granted, life and liberty never meant much to despots, but their property was something they cherished dearly. Private property and communal property have seemingly always been at war.
I agree with him about state socialism, but he fails to differentiate between ownership of the means of production y the state and ownership by the workers.
I would like for you, if you would, to explain to me how collective ownership of this sort is supposed to work. I could look it up, but that would require a lot of sifting through info. I'd rather hear y… [view original content]
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain.
"If you strike us down now, we shall rise again, and renew the fight. You cannot conquer Ireland; you cannot extinguish the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not been sufficient to win freedom, then our children will win it by a better deed." - Padraic (Patrick) Pearse.
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude.
Comments
Eyyy, Sandlot!
"The instant formal government is abolished, society begins to act. A general association takes place and common interest produces common security." --Thomas Paine
"Property is theft!" -- P.J. Proudhon
“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson.
"You're dead that's good, amen"
“I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves ; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.” - Thomas Jefferson.
"Private property began the instant somebody had a mind of his own." - E. E. Cummings.
“State is the name of the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies; and this lie slips from its mouth: 'I, the state, am the people.” --Friedrich Nietzsche
"Science and industry, knowledge and application, discovery and practical realization leading to new discoveries, cunning of brain and of hand, toil of mind and muscle--all work together. Each discovery, each advance, each increase in the sum of human riches, owes its being to the physical and mental travail of the past and the present. By what right then can any one whatever appropriate the least morsel of this immense whole and say--This is mine, not yours?" --Pyotr Kropotkin
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat.
“It is also interesting to observe that communal ownership violates every instinct of human nature. It destroys initiative, nullifies free agency, suppresses inventive exploration, minimizes the dignity of the individual and makes a god out of an abstract thing called "The State"- to which is delegated complete, unrestricted control over life, liberty and property. . . Like so many other weak systems of government, it can survive only in an atmosphere of a slave state, ruled by a king or a dictator.” - W. Cleon Skousen.
Bastiat is demonstrably wrong when you consider that communal, occupancy & use property has been the dominant form since the dawn of man. Therefore, I'll have to refer to Proudhon's famous diss of Bastiat.
"Your intelligence is asleep, or rather it has never been awake...You are a man for whom logic does not exist...You do not hear anything, you do not understand anything...Your are without philosophy, without science, without humanity...Your ability to reason, like your ability to pay attention and make comparisons is zero...Scientifically, Mr. Bastiat, you are a dead man."
I agree with him about state socialism, but he fails to differentiate between ownership of the means of production y the state and ownership by the workers. In fact, I'd contest that the same can be said about Capitalism, as there's no way it could exist without state subsidy and aggression.
"We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality.” -- Mikhail Balunin, father of Anarcho-Collectivism.
At the same time, for the time Western Civilization has been in development, dating back at least to the time of the Romans and probably further should I look, private property has existed in various forms. Particularly in the form of land lords. Granted, life and liberty never meant much to despots, but their property was something they cherished dearly. Private property and communal property have seemingly always been at war.
I would like for you, if you would, to explain to me how collective ownership of this sort is supposed to work. I could look it up, but that would require a lot of sifting through info. I'd rather hear your thoughts on the matter directly.
I disagree that Capitalism can't exist without state subsidy. Capitalism focuses around private trade and private control of markets. In a basic example we can see Capitalism at work without state intervention; two people engage in a private sale. The state was in no way involved in this private transaction. In fact, subsidization of businesses by the state extends beyond the realm of Capitalism by the very nature of the intervention.
If by subsidization you were meaning more along the lines of allowance, then I would agree. Capitalism can only exist if the state allows it to, however, when the state allows it to it also means that the state isn't intervening. Either way it falls on the state to decide the economic system, be it Capitalism or otherwise.
As for aggression, I wasn't sure if you meant state aggression or aggression in general.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence.
I'd like to hit some of these points, but it's probably time for me to hit the hay. Be on the lookout for a reply tomorrow morning or later on in the day.
,,When you look into an abyss the abyss also looks into you" - Friedrich Nietzsche.
I would like for you, if you would, to explain to me how collective ownership of this sort is supposed to work. I could look it up, bIt that would require a lot of sifting through info, I'd rather hear your thoughts on the matter directly.
Put simply, collective ownership by workers (a.k.a. Worker Self-Management) is the abolition of hierarchy in the workplace. The capitalist mode of production is built on rigid hierarchy of workers. It's a system in which I sell my labor to the bourgeoisie and only receive a fraction of the value of my labor, the rest of it going to the bosses in the form of surplus value. Worker self-management does away with all of this. In (non-state) Socialism, a worker owns a part of their factory, farm or hotel and earns the full value of their labor, rather than a small fraction of it. Since all the workers in a factory are partial owners, decisions are made democratically by the workers themselves, rather than imposed from above by people who never set foot on the factory floor. This doesn't necessarily mean there's no authority, but it will form organically, rather than being imposed from above. Workers with experience in certain fields will be recognized as an authority in that particular task and other workers will look to them for guidance. As Bakunin said "Against all authority? Perish the thought! I consider the shoemaker an authority on matters pertaining to shoes!" There's historical precedent for this line of thinking. During the Spanish Civil War, tha anarchists kept the Catalonian war economy going like clockwork until the Stalinists killed them off and took the factories (subsequently running them into the ground). In fact, even the hospitals became voluntarily collectives and were acclaimed as providing some of the best healthcare in Spain. All of that happened voluntarily without markets or wage labor. Workers produced what they could and took what they needed.
My ideal society would involve the rise of worker co-ops, voluntary collective farms and sole proprietorships/family businesses.
Ah, but you're conflating markets with Capitalism. This is a favorite hobby of Libertarian thinkers like Hayek and Mises, but they are not the same thing. Markets are the system of voluntary exchange between people. We Socialists are divided on how we feel about them, but I quite like markets, which is why I'd consider myself a Market Socialist. Capitalist on the other hand, is a term created by Socialists (I think it was Marx). It's an economic system in which the means of production are owned by the bourgeois, capitalist class. There's no way that such a system could exist, without the state, it's violence and it's subsidies. Socialism, without all the historical baggage and propoganda is simply an economic system in which the means of production are controlled by the workers themselves. Socialism doesn't depend on the state because it's based on common interest and security of the working class, rather than exploiting the many to enrich the few.
Oh boy, "The Iron Fist Behind the Invisible Hand is going to throw you for a loop! Suffice to say, the government does much more tha simply "allow" Capitalism to exist. It enforces ridiculous patents that stifle competition, subsidizes shipping costs, gives the private sector sweetheart prices on various projects, restricts striking, allows companies to invade your privacy and most importantly, the government violently enforces Capitalist property norms (yet greedily hordes property for itself.). That's not even mentioning the tremendous theft committed against peasants and small landowners by the state hundreds of years ago. This goes far, far, far beyond Locke's vision for government as an entity that serves the people and protects personal property.
"Cheers, Love. The Calvary's here!" - Tracer
My god shes so british its hurts me, do I sound like that? Do we all sound like that?
-John Hancock, Fallout 4.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain.
"If you strike us down now, we shall rise again, and renew the fight. You cannot conquer Ireland; you cannot extinguish the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not been sufficient to win freedom, then our children will win it by a better deed." - Padraic (Patrick) Pearse.
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude.
She's cockney so I assume you don't all sound like that.
Of the people, for the people? Oh brother...
Hehehe, I can tell I'm gonna like you already. :^)
this is true
Just so long as I remember whose in charge?
[removed]
How mature.
IKR.
You already have a thread about this.
I know. It's just one of my fav quotes.
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path.- Buddha
"Do you love life? Than don't waste time, as that's the stuff life is made of." - Benjamin Franklin.
"Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you." - Thomas Jefferson.
"When angry count to ten before you speak. If very angry, count to one hundred." - Thomas Jefferson.
“Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...It's about learning to dance in the rain.”
― Vivian Greene