I hope they can fix this before anything too serious happens as a result. I see a few news sites have made reports and the Russian foreign ministry are aware...
Why are so many of you acting as if telltale went and did this on purpose? It's like you want some pathetic drama, seriously. I'm sure it'll get patched out and hopefully this won't turn into some huge "problematic" bullshite.
Maybe I became a jerk but I don't see what is the problem there.
Artists oftenly use models of real life to create content. The guy probably check on google people lying on the floor.
I mean they didn't use his model to make fun of him, they didn't disrespect him. And for the family I doubt they would have recognized him..
Maybe I became a jerk but I don't see what is the problem there.
Artists oftenly use models of real life to create content. The guy probabl… morey check on google people lying on the floor.
I mean they didn't use his model to make fun of him, they didn't disrespect him. And for the family I doubt they would have recognized him..
Its honestly hard to believe this happened, when I was playing and I saw that image I knew something about it reminded me of something.
Obviously I dont think Telltale did this on purpose, but its kinda alarming seeing Telltale couldn't figure out where this image was from, I mean, this wasnt even a year ago, and it was really major news, and one of the biggest things about it was "how the photos look almost fake." Like the pictures of the event were one of the biggest things talked about.
So although its probably an accident, it kinda just shows how ignorant Telltale seems to be that they couldnt even recognize the photos they were using were photos that were a very big talking point less than a year ago of a real murder.
Exposure is exposure. It increases popularity and public recognition regardless, and this is not something as grave as to villanize them that much, especially after they come out and claim it as a mistake...
But yeah, I'm sure people at Telltale are incredibly ashamed of their foolish, foolish mistake.
They didn't make a model, they took the photo of his dead body. It's really mostly because the family may get offended, and they might learn about this even if they have never seen this game. Someone will probably tell them.
Maybe I became a jerk but I don't see what is the problem there.
Artists oftenly use models of real life to create content. The guy probabl… morey check on google people lying on the floor.
I mean they didn't use his model to make fun of him, they didn't disrespect him. And for the family I doubt they would have recognized him..
Using a model from real life is fine. Using an actual picture of an actual murdered man who was murdered on live tv is not ok. It's often not allowed to use things of this nature
I mean they didn't use his model to make fun of him, they didn't disrespect him. And for the family I doubt they would have recognized him..
Have you seen the video? Your father gets murdered on live television, then someone recovered a picture of your dead murdered father and puts it in their game.
WITHOUT paying for the image assuming they thought it was a stock image
Using a photo of someone who was actually murdered
Imagine if someone from Russia recovered a picture of someone who was murdered at the LA shooting then put it in their game. Sound right to you?
Maybe I became a jerk but I don't see what is the problem there.
Artists oftenly use models of real life to create content. The guy probabl… morey check on google people lying on the floor.
I mean they didn't use his model to make fun of him, they didn't disrespect him. And for the family I doubt they would have recognized him..
Telltale does something wrong and you're targeting the customers for pointing out something that they did wrong? Might as well let telltale steal whatever pictures off the internet that they please, even though it's illegal and plagiarism because poor telltale right? To hell with the photographer who's picture was used without permission and the man who was murdered on live television.
Why are so many of you acting as if telltale went and did this on purpose? It's like you want some pathetic drama, seriously. I'm sure it'll get patched out and hopefully this won't turn into some huge "problematic" bullshite.
Of course they did it on purpose, your not going to put the Russian ambassador to Turkey dead body in a video game on accident, I understand if it was just a random dead body but it's not.
Why are so many of you acting as if telltale went and did this on purpose? It's like you want some pathetic drama, seriously. I'm sure it'll get patched out and hopefully this won't turn into some huge "problematic" bullshite.
Bad exposure is never a good thing. You look on all other websites that are talking about how bad this makes them look. To let something like this happen isn't as little as "well doesn't matter because they got exposure."
Here are people talking about the recent incident, people from other websites:
"This is the worst of the "googled image copy" incidents. Even worse than the Okami IGN watermark."
"Wonder how much more unsourced assets are used that aren't as well known."
"Regardless of Telltale being stupid that image is the property of an AP photographer and was obviously used without his permission. It won fucking awards. This is why you have staff look into these things before release. What a fuck up."
"Not even Wolf among us 2 can save y’all from this one."
"Its Telltale, I'm actually surprised this is their first game with this sort of shit in it."
"This is obviously a forgotten placeholder fuckup, but the fact that it's a real photo of a real dead man makes this particularly fucked up. Real tacky. As if I needed another reason to hate Telltale... >_<"
"Telltale fucked up. Will probably take 8 months to release a statement or remove it knowing them"
So to say this makes them popular or gives them exposure? Exposure to flame, sure. Because therye under major heat now and this does nothing but harm them.
Exposure is exposure. It increases popularity and public recognition regardless, and this is not something as grave as to villanize them tha… moret much, especially after they come out and claim it as a mistake...
But yeah, I'm sure people at Telltale are incredibly ashamed of their foolish, foolish mistake.
So you think its right for this to have been posted publicy "Lmao guess what guys" Instead of privately informing telltale of the error like a decent human being?
its the internet so we gotta always use this as baggage and ruin peoples lives
It's literally an image of a man who was murdered on … morenational television. If you think people are overreacting to that then I don't know what world you live in. The Russian Foreign Ministry are getting involved to get it removed. It's a very insensitive and ignorant mistake to make and goes beyond 'the internet'.
Ye, I agree with you there. Telltale should really apologize publicly on Twitter, Facebook and any other social media they have and replace this image as quick as they can. Quoting one of the comments you posted: 'What a fuck up.'
Bad exposure is never a good thing. You look on all other websites that are talking about how bad this makes them look. To let something l… moreike this happen isn't as little as "well doesn't matter because they got exposure."
Here are people talking about the recent incident, people from other websites:
"This is the worst of the "googled image copy" incidents. Even worse than the Okami IGN watermark."
"Wonder how much more unsourced assets are used that aren't as well known."
"Regardless of Telltale being stupid that image is the property of an AP photographer and was obviously used without his permission. It won fucking awards. This is why you have staff look into these things before release. What a fuck up."
"Not even Wolf among us 2 can save y’all from this one."
"Its Telltale, I'm actually surprised this is their first game with this sort of shit in it."
"This is obviously a forgotten placeholder fuckup, but the fact th… [view original content]
Eh, not entirely true. You've youtubers and even professional singers making tons of money in views thanks to their little dramas and controversies. It's a double edged knife though, and such "marketing" tactics certainly have their risks, since such performances have easily effectively destroyed channels and celebrities before. Though, yeah, this is the gaming industry, not youtube, so this may just be an out of place analogy.
Angry comments are not exactly something new to Telltale, though this adds to the fire. As long as they don't have a news outlet, a popular one at that, going outright against Telltale and painting this as a disgusting mistake (which it is), they haven't really taken a blow. They all seem to be reporting it as a "Um... akward..."-mistake rather than the outright incompetence it is, it's expected that will be the majority's views on it as well, these sources are influential after all.
I just found it curious how closely placed the body is to Harley Quinn's photo, you know, the iconic character. Something's certain, this will put Telltale's name (and Harley Quinn's picture at that) in a lot of people's minds, people who probably were hardly paying attention to the company before. Makes me wonder if it was a mistake at all, you see...
EDIT:
"Given that this is the first time EG has even mentioned the existence of the second season, job done I suppose?"
See what I mean? Due to all this, Euro Gamer mentioned the second season for the first time. All frequent Euro Gamer readers who might've not been aware of it, are now.
Bad exposure is never a good thing. You look on all other websites that are talking about how bad this makes them look. To let something l… moreike this happen isn't as little as "well doesn't matter because they got exposure."
Here are people talking about the recent incident, people from other websites:
"This is the worst of the "googled image copy" incidents. Even worse than the Okami IGN watermark."
"Wonder how much more unsourced assets are used that aren't as well known."
"Regardless of Telltale being stupid that image is the property of an AP photographer and was obviously used without his permission. It won fucking awards. This is why you have staff look into these things before release. What a fuck up."
"Not even Wolf among us 2 can save y’all from this one."
"Its Telltale, I'm actually surprised this is their first game with this sort of shit in it."
"This is obviously a forgotten placeholder fuckup, but the fact th… [view original content]
Though, yeah, this is the gaming industry, not youtube, so this may just be an out of place analogy.
You're right, it is a bad analogy and neither have to do with one another.
As long as they don't have a news outlet, a popular one at that, going outright against Telltale and painting this as a disgusting mistake (which it is), they haven't really taken a blow.
The Russian Foreign Ministry addressed it, did you forget?
You saying they might have done it on purpose to get them attention? Eh, they do stupid shit all the time so maybe. But all this attention is going to do is get them sued, make the gaming community hate telltale even more, and cause even less sales than the abysmal amount they're currently getting.
Bad exposure is never a good thing.
Eh, not entirely true. You've youtubers and even professional singers making tons of money in vi… moreews thanks to their little dramas and controversies. It's a double edged knife though, and such "marketing" tactics certainly have their risks, since such performances have easily effectively destroyed channels and celebrities before. Though, yeah, this is the gaming industry, not youtube, so this may just be an out of place analogy.
Angry comments are not exactly something new to Telltale, though this adds to the fire. As long as they don't have a news outlet, a popular one at that, going outright against Telltale and painting this as a disgusting mistake (which it is), they haven't really taken a blow. They all seem to be reporting it as a "Um... akward..."-mistake rather than the outright incompetence it is, it's expected that will be the majority's views on it as well, these sources are influential… [view original content]
Right, this will make Telltale stick into people's minds, but I don't see anyone "forgiving" them for it anytime soon. At least not the ones who don't support them.
Bad exposure is never a good thing.
Eh, not entirely true. You've youtubers and even professional singers making tons of money in vi… moreews thanks to their little dramas and controversies. It's a double edged knife though, and such "marketing" tactics certainly have their risks, since such performances have easily effectively destroyed channels and celebrities before. Though, yeah, this is the gaming industry, not youtube, so this may just be an out of place analogy.
Angry comments are not exactly something new to Telltale, though this adds to the fire. As long as they don't have a news outlet, a popular one at that, going outright against Telltale and painting this as a disgusting mistake (which it is), they haven't really taken a blow. They all seem to be reporting it as a "Um... akward..."-mistake rather than the outright incompetence it is, it's expected that will be the majority's views on it as well, these sources are influential… [view original content]
No? That would obviously have been the ideal way to go about it but expecting people not be upset by this and not bring attention to it is unrealistic at best.
So you think its right for this to have been posted publicy "Lmao guess what guys" Instead of privately informing telltale of the error like a decent human being?
They should patch it out right now. They don't even have to replace it, there was no need to have a dead body on camera on that picture (the other crime scene didn't have a body and the description still said people died there too).
Ye, I agree with you there. Telltale should really apologize publicly on Twitter, Facebook and any other social media they have and replace this image as quick as they can. Quoting one of the comments you posted: 'What a fuck up.'
It is different with games. Bad exposure when it comes to game can close studios. It can cancel franchises. The gaming industry is different and, for a company to survive after getting in the Internet's rage machine, they gotta be HUGE. EA can survive, Ubisoft can survive, but Telltale just isn't big enough to survive prolonged bad exposure. They need to act now.
Bad exposure is never a good thing.
Eh, not entirely true. You've youtubers and even professional singers making tons of money in vi… moreews thanks to their little dramas and controversies. It's a double edged knife though, and such "marketing" tactics certainly have their risks, since such performances have easily effectively destroyed channels and celebrities before. Though, yeah, this is the gaming industry, not youtube, so this may just be an out of place analogy.
Angry comments are not exactly something new to Telltale, though this adds to the fire. As long as they don't have a news outlet, a popular one at that, going outright against Telltale and painting this as a disgusting mistake (which it is), they haven't really taken a blow. They all seem to be reporting it as a "Um... akward..."-mistake rather than the outright incompetence it is, it's expected that will be the majority's views on it as well, these sources are influential… [view original content]
And the ministry is seeking the exclusion of the picture in question. Which telltale will certainly do if they have any sense. They are not suing the company, at least that's not been brought to the picture by the article.
And yes, I've been implying they did it on purpose since the beginning, I guess it needed to be spelled out. That was my whole point. We can't know for sure, but the whole situation is rather curious.
Though, yeah, this is the gaming industry, not youtube, so this may just be an out of place analogy.
You're right, it is a bad analo… moregy and neither have to do with one another.
As long as they don't have a news outlet, a popular one at that, going outright against Telltale and painting this as a disgusting mistake (which it is), they haven't really taken a blow.
The Russian Foreign Ministry addressed it, did you forget?
You saying they might have done it on purpose to get them attention? Eh, they do stupid shit all the time so maybe. But all this attention is going to do is get them sued, make the gaming community hate telltale even more, and cause even less sales than the abysmal amount they're currently getting.
And the ministry is seeking the exclusion of the picture in question. Which telltale will certainly do if they have any sense. They are not … moresuing the company, at least that's not been brought to the picture by the article.
And yes, I've been implying they did it on purpose since the beginning, I guess it needed to be spelled out. That was my whole point. We can't know for sure, but the whole situation is rather curious.
Yes, as I've mentioned, a pretty risky "marketing" tactic which can be put in parallel with YouTube channels and celebrities being disgraced for fucked up shit that was brought to light to the public.
I'm just dubious on whether this will cause that much backlash. How do you believe the average person will react to this? Are you seeing outrage to a fault? I don't know. You can see people in this thread not startled at all by the incident, though I've yet to look in other places.
It is different with games. Bad exposure when it comes to game can close studios. It can cancel franchises. The gaming industry is different… more and, for a company to survive after getting in the Internet's rage machine, they gotta be HUGE. EA can survive, Ubisoft can survive, but Telltale just isn't big enough to survive prolonged bad exposure. They need to act now.
I just saw your original comment in my feed. I actually realised there was no fire as soon as I posted so I tried to add the proper version, but it didn't work so I settled for this lol.
I think the average gamer will jump in the hate bandwagon even if they don't even care for TellTale games, because that's how it goes every time a gaming company does something stupid. They suddenly become trash in the eyes of the internet. The internet is where anonymity meets mob mentality, which is why companies should be extra careful and they need to act as quick as possible.
I unfortunately saw quite a few games getting trashed online and plummeting in popularity due to smaller issues that were not addressed by the company in a timely manner.
Yes, as I've mentioned, a pretty risky "marketing" tactic which can be put in parallel with YouTube channels and celebrities being disgraced… more for fucked up shit that was brought to light to the public.
I'm just dubious on whether this will cause that much backlash. How do you believe the average person will react to this? Are you seeing outrage to a fault? I don't know. You can see people in this thread not startled at all by the incident, though I've yet to look in other places.
I think it should be worded as it being a shot of someone being dead, not of a dead guy (since there are plenty of photos of dead people but not showing them being dead).
I agree that this is horrible for several reasons, even if I haven't heard the news about it before, but is that photo really real? The camera positioning, lack of wounds/blood, and the placement of the bodies (I'm including the standing gun user) seems so...manufactured? I don't doubt the incident happening, I'm just doubting that this is an actual photo.
Also, this is so going to make things harder when it comes to saving certain people there.
For some reason, the mods have been quiet.
I already sent Mosypoptarts the link and I haven’t gotten a response that clarifies that they’re working on it.
They have to fix this now.
This was a huge discussion back when it happened exactly because of the reasons you pointed out. This is why it is hard to believe it was an accident, the weird things about the photos were as commented as the incident on itself.
But yes, it is an actual photo despite all the weird things about it. Or at least it wasn't proven to be fake back then.
I think it should be worded as it being a shot of someone being dead, not of a dead guy (since there are plenty of photos of dead people but… more not showing them being dead).
I agree that this is horrible for several reasons, even if I haven't heard the news about it before, but is that photo really real? The camera positioning, lack of wounds/blood, and the placement of the bodies (I'm including the standing gun user) seems so...manufactured? I don't doubt the incident happening, I'm just doubting that this is an actual photo.
Also, this is so going to make things harder when it comes to saving certain people there.
Comments
I hope they can fix this before anything too serious happens as a result. I see a few news sites have made reports and the Russian foreign ministry are aware...
Aaaaaand?
Fans: Wow this season is going so well!
Telltale: Hold my beer.
It will be fine...the diplomat is not upset about this.
Why are so many of you acting as if telltale went and did this on purpose? It's like you want some pathetic drama, seriously. I'm sure it'll get patched out and hopefully this won't turn into some huge "problematic" bullshite.
Maybe I became a jerk but I don't see what is the problem there.
Artists oftenly use models of real life to create content. The guy probably check on google people lying on the floor.
I mean they didn't use his model to make fun of him, they didn't disrespect him. And for the family I doubt they would have recognized him..
̶H̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶I̶ ̶f̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶r̶i̶e̶d̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶T̶e̶l̶l̶t̶a̶l̶e̶ ̶l̶m̶a̶o̶
Its honestly hard to believe this happened, when I was playing and I saw that image I knew something about it reminded me of something.
Obviously I dont think Telltale did this on purpose, but its kinda alarming seeing Telltale couldn't figure out where this image was from, I mean, this wasnt even a year ago, and it was really major news, and one of the biggest things about it was "how the photos look almost fake." Like the pictures of the event were one of the biggest things talked about.
So although its probably an accident, it kinda just shows how ignorant Telltale seems to be that they couldnt even recognize the photos they were using were photos that were a very big talking point less than a year ago of a real murder.
Uh... just think of how much exposure will Telltale get from this.....
Yeah... Bad exposure.
Sure this was probably accidental, but it's a grave mistake nonetheless.
Exposure is exposure. It increases popularity and public recognition regardless, and this is not something as grave as to villanize them that much, especially after they come out and claim it as a mistake...
But yeah, I'm sure people at Telltale are incredibly ashamed of their foolish, foolish mistake.
They didn't make a model, they took the photo of his dead body. It's really mostly because the family may get offended, and they might learn about this even if they have never seen this game. Someone will probably tell them.
Using a model from real life is fine. Using an actual picture of an actual murdered man who was murdered on live tv is not ok. It's often not allowed to use things of this nature
Have you seen the video? Your father gets murdered on live television, then someone recovered a picture of your dead murdered father and puts it in their game.
Imagine if someone from Russia recovered a picture of someone who was murdered at the LA shooting then put it in their game. Sound right to you?
Well hes fucking dead so
Telltale does something wrong and you're targeting the customers for pointing out something that they did wrong? Might as well let telltale steal whatever pictures off the internet that they please, even though it's illegal and plagiarism because poor telltale right? To hell with the photographer who's picture was used without permission and the man who was murdered on live television.
Of course they did it on purpose, your not going to put the Russian ambassador to Turkey dead body in a video game on accident, I understand if it was just a random dead body but it's not.
Bad exposure is never a good thing. You look on all other websites that are talking about how bad this makes them look. To let something like this happen isn't as little as "well doesn't matter because they got exposure."
Here are people talking about the recent incident, people from other websites:
"This is the worst of the "googled image copy" incidents. Even worse than the Okami IGN watermark."
"Wonder how much more unsourced assets are used that aren't as well known."
"Regardless of Telltale being stupid that image is the property of an AP photographer and was obviously used without his permission. It won fucking awards. This is why you have staff look into these things before release. What a fuck up."
"Not even Wolf among us 2 can save y’all from this one."
"Its Telltale, I'm actually surprised this is their first game with this sort of shit in it."
"This is obviously a forgotten placeholder fuckup, but the fact that it's a real photo of a real dead man makes this particularly fucked up. Real tacky. As if I needed another reason to hate Telltale... >_<"
"Telltale fucked up. Will probably take 8 months to release a statement or remove it knowing them"
So to say this makes them popular or gives them exposure? Exposure to flame, sure. Because therye under major heat now and this does nothing but harm them.
So you think its right for this to have been posted publicy "Lmao guess what guys" Instead of privately informing telltale of the error like a decent human being?
Ye, I agree with you there. Telltale should really apologize publicly on Twitter, Facebook and any other social media they have and replace this image as quick as they can. Quoting one of the comments you posted: 'What a fuck up.'
Eh, not entirely true. You've youtubers and even professional singers making tons of money in views thanks to their little dramas and controversies. It's a double edged knife though, and such "marketing" tactics certainly have their risks, since such performances have easily effectively destroyed channels and celebrities before. Though, yeah, this is the gaming industry, not youtube, so this may just be an out of place analogy.
Angry comments are not exactly something new to Telltale, though this adds to the fire. As long as they don't have a news outlet, a popular one at that, going outright against Telltale and painting this as a disgusting mistake (which it is), they haven't really taken a blow. They all seem to be reporting it as a "Um... akward..."-mistake rather than the outright incompetence it is, it's expected that will be the majority's views on it as well, these sources are influential after all.
I just found it curious how closely placed the body is to Harley Quinn's photo, you know, the iconic character. Something's certain, this will put Telltale's name (and Harley Quinn's picture at that) in a lot of people's minds, people who probably were hardly paying attention to the company before. Makes me wonder if it was a mistake at all, you see...
EDIT:
"Given that this is the first time EG has even mentioned the existence of the second season, job done I suppose?"
See what I mean? Due to all this, Euro Gamer mentioned the second season for the first time. All frequent Euro Gamer readers who might've not been aware of it, are now.
You're right, it is a bad analogy and neither have to do with one another.
The Russian Foreign Ministry addressed it, did you forget?
You saying they might have done it on purpose to get them attention? Eh, they do stupid shit all the time so maybe. But all this attention is going to do is get them sued, make the gaming community hate telltale even more, and cause even less sales than the abysmal amount they're currently getting.
Fingers crossed for the entire company.
When fans try to convince themselves this is accidental or otherwise acceptable.
Right, this will make Telltale stick into people's minds, but I don't see anyone "forgiving" them for it anytime soon. At least not the ones who don't support them.
No? That would obviously have been the ideal way to go about it but expecting people not be upset by this and not bring attention to it is unrealistic at best.
They should patch it out right now. They don't even have to replace it, there was no need to have a dead body on camera on that picture (the other crime scene didn't have a body and the description still said people died there too).
It is different with games. Bad exposure when it comes to game can close studios. It can cancel franchises. The gaming industry is different and, for a company to survive after getting in the Internet's rage machine, they gotta be HUGE. EA can survive, Ubisoft can survive, but Telltale just isn't big enough to survive prolonged bad exposure. They need to act now.
Really? The entire company? You think writers and voice actors need to go because an artist fucked up royally?
I was exaggerating. A number of people don't deserve to lose their jobs.
Never mind then. You fixed it.
And the ministry is seeking the exclusion of the picture in question. Which telltale will certainly do if they have any sense. They are not suing the company, at least that's not been brought to the picture by the article.
And yes, I've been implying they did it on purpose since the beginning, I guess it needed to be spelled out. That was my whole point. We can't know for sure, but the whole situation is rather curious.
It definitely wasn't an accident.
Yes, as I've mentioned, a pretty risky "marketing" tactic which can be put in parallel with YouTube channels and celebrities being disgraced for fucked up shit that was brought to light to the public.
I'm just dubious on whether this will cause that much backlash. How do you believe the average person will react to this? Are you seeing outrage to a fault? I don't know. You can see people in this thread not startled at all by the incident, though I've yet to look in other places.
I just saw your original comment in my feed. I actually realised there was no fire as soon as I posted so I tried to add the proper version, but it didn't work so I settled for this lol.
I think the average gamer will jump in the hate bandwagon even if they don't even care for TellTale games, because that's how it goes every time a gaming company does something stupid. They suddenly become trash in the eyes of the internet. The internet is where anonymity meets mob mentality, which is why companies should be extra careful and they need to act as quick as possible.
I unfortunately saw quite a few games getting trashed online and plummeting in popularity due to smaller issues that were not addressed by the company in a timely manner.
For some reason, the mods have been quiet.
I already sent Mosypoptarts the link and I haven’t gotten a response that clarifies that they’re working on it.
They have to fix this now.
I think it should be worded as it being a shot of someone being dead, not of a dead guy (since there are plenty of photos of dead people but not showing them being dead).
I agree that this is horrible for several reasons, even if I haven't heard the news about it before, but is that photo really real? The camera positioning, lack of wounds/blood, and the placement of the bodies (I'm including the standing gun user) seems so...manufactured? I don't doubt the incident happening, I'm just doubting that this is an actual photo.
Also, this is so going to make things harder when it comes to saving certain people there.
The mods don’t really have anything to do with this, since they know as much as we do in this matter.
This was a huge discussion back when it happened exactly because of the reasons you pointed out. This is why it is hard to believe it was an accident, the weird things about the photos were as commented as the incident on itself.
But yes, it is an actual photo despite all the weird things about it. Or at least it wasn't proven to be fake back then.