How would you feel about an optional John Doe romance? [EDIT: See Mod post towards bottom of page 7]
To clarify, I personally don't ship it, I just love their friendship, but I can see the possibility and honestly wouldn't mind it. I ask because I know there are a lot of people hoping for the possibility. There's actually some pretty sweet video tributes and fanart, I might post a couple later. Anyway I fully support the option and want the option to exist for those who want it. How about it guys? How would you feel about the option?
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Comments
I've never, ever, in my life so passively and strongly desired an option to make such a choice that I would think back upon throughout my life in it's events, and when I'm eighty I'll surely remember that I took the opportunity to write this comment saying that I indeed do not wish for a Joker and Batman romance.
No, just no... would just be weird.
I'm saying for there to be an option. Not for it to be forced on you.
What would be weird about it? I don't understand. Or better yet, why would the option simply being there bother you?
No. Just no.
That would be too weird, I don't get any gay vibes between them either. John is very eager to get close to Bruce for some reason.
A bit of a weirdo albeit an endearing one.
The tension between is not sexual in nature from what I've seen but maybe the writers had other ideas.
Not for me.
It does not fit the story at all... we all know Bruce likes Selina (or atleast my Bruce does) and John likes Harley... there is nothing else that I have seen between John and Bruce that makes this a reasonable discussion. They are friends in my eyes and nothing else...
Personally it would not bother me if the option was there, but it does not fit and that is why I think its weird.
Nice to think about, but doesn't fit with what's going on in the story. There's increasingly less time for romance the further we get into the season.
Plot thread for good friends? Yes. As romantic partners? No. We can tell that Bruce isn't the fondest of John regardless of our decisions. He's still got some of his guard up around him.
Yeah I would like it if we could romance John, but mainly because I want my Bruce to be bisexual so I can have one big Foursome with Harley,John, and Selina. I also shipped Bruce, with Harvey as well as oz in season 1.
Please, just dont
The stuff you read on forums sometimes....Yuck.
I like to think if people shipped a pairing, they'd ship it because they like the idea of two characters being together. Not just for the sake of a character being a certain sexuallity.
Well I do want Bruce, with John it just would be a added bonus if I could still sleep with the other hot females of the game. I mean you still have to take into account Bruce, is a bit of a player and I want my Bruce to have a harem .
You know, I was hoping that there'd be actual discussion here and not immediate dismissals of the idea and now it seems the thread is turning into a joke.
I certainly would not spit on the opportunity.
I am a little biased since I am a Batjokes shipper. I love them in literally everything I have ever read/player. I just don’t think their relationship would work in anything but Telltale games version. Of course, they have always shared that ‘’metaphorical love’’; ‘’married couple without the make up sex’’ was used as a good metaphor. Hell, it wouldn’t even surprise me if they ever ragingly made out once in between their usual ‘’dances’’ ( they could have in Europa for exemple ), but I don’t expect them to ever form a couple or an on and off relationship such as the one Bats share with Selina. Chances are… it would take away from what I think makes their relationship interesting.
Telltale version is different.
I love the friendship, I am satisfied with the friendship, but I don’t feel like it would be ‘’weird’’ if it went further. Why the hell do you guys think the dialogue ‘’ are you in love with me’’ was here for ? Bruce certainly had every reasons to think John was indeed in love with him until told otherwise. However, I think we might not have the time to explore a romance correctly before John snaps. It’s likely to happen in the end of episode 4 or the beginning of episode 5 after all.
What’s preventing the usual Joker/Batman relationship to turn into anything else than it usually is is their respective philosophy and their respective way to cope. One of them will have to compromise ( and it certainly won’t be Batman because Joker wants him to kill him…it’s hard to start a friendship/partnership/romance… with a dead man ).
Bruce and John don’t have this problem at all. John is not fully Joker yet, he doesn’t actively try to get Batman to break his code, he doesn't actively try to murder Batman's loved ones.... Bruce is not in his Batman persona. With the news about his father, Bruce is so troubled he can do some morally questionable actions.They just meet in the middle, sometimes we even have a glimpse of a comfortable teacher manipulator Bruce around a eager to learn ( and eager to get inside your head ) John… Batman and Joker always understood each other. The difference is, Bruce has absolutely no reason to be in denial about John’s infatuation, like Batman usually is with Joker’s blatant love.
Some people don’t see more than friendship? I am actually surprised because the potential seems obvious in almost every sentence John pronounces. I could make a list of John’s dialogues to prove that it would require absolutely no effort whatsoever to turn the already existing ambiguity into something concrete…
I am just saying it wouldn’t be out of either of ether of their character depending of the dialogue you chose and the way you behaved. Bruce too can pull out his usual ‘’smug’’ ‘’charming’’ ‘’playboy’ ’face in some of the dialogues he uses with John. Similar to the one he uses with Harley and Selina as he flirts. Telltale writers themselves seems to insist about how ‘’unclear’’ it is whether John is in love with Bruce or Harley, and whether he wants Bruce of Harley’s attention. They said it explicitly... twice.
John seems to want equality and reciprocity in his relationship, he wants adrenaline, he wants someone he can ‘’dance’’ ( fight ) with, someone he can relate to ( basically the description of the usual Batjokes relationship), I can’t see how Bruce couldn’t give him what he is constantly talking about…
Such option would be a premiere. Their relationship is already amazing as it is. I am telling you right now, I love Bruce and John friendship more than Bruce and Cats romance ( and I adore Batcat relationship in this game ). Friendship can be just as interesting as romance, I just think It would be such a daring move fromTelltale and I have no doubts they would succeed in their portrayal as I have been nothing but mind blown by their understanding of what's interesting in Batjokes dynamic. It would be daring because it makes sense and because not everyone will like it. I can imagine extreme reaction on both sides. Some people will not like it at all, they might get angry if you make Bruce and John’s relationship any more than the usual ambiguity which characterize Batjokes. Some other will love it so much they will worship Telltale and make fanarts for years... Then of course there are those in the middle, but I don’t think we would hear much about them.
At the end of the day I'd rather have it as an option, and if people are bothered by the option alone then it's not Telltale's fault.
If the option pops up I wouldn’t think twice about it and I would just do it. I don’t care if John ends up snapping and stabs me in the back ( literally ), I am in it for the ride, and if he does stab me, well, I’d thank him.
That's pretty messed up.
I'm glad someone can see the potential that such an option would offer. The fact that the two of them already have a connection offers so many possibilities and a romance would add to it. Obviously keep it optional. No one likes being pushed into a romantic option in a game. I feel that such an option would have so much more emotional weight if it was offered before John reaches villain status.
I believe they mean from a story perspective. Let's not get personal.
Even from story perspective it doesn't make sense. Unless his Bruce is crazier than the Joker. And I am not getting personal I just stated my opinion about that part of his post.
I meant as seeing it as a great scene, rather than putting yourself in Bruce's shoes. Like how Vicki revealing herself as Lady Arkham and drugging Bruce. That was an amazing scene but that doesn't mean I enjoy being drugged by my friends and finding out their secretly a super villain.
He said that he would thank him so I assumed that he meant it as Bruce. As is that his Bruce would thank John for stabbing him. And I said that I think it's messed up. I didn't say anything about Mellorine putting himself in Bruce's shoes.
I've seen people express their worries about queerbaiting.. and sadly I can see where that's coming from to be honest. The love thing and all the not so subtle subtext. That seems to be the only thing we ever get
haven't we had enough of that literally everywhere else already.. as much as I love the friendship between Bruce and John right now, it really wouldn't be a surprise if it were to change to something else. There's already a romance option with Selina to those who want it so..
I don't see why anyone would be against the choice even existing. If that's not what you want then you could just ignore it. Live and let live. I ship it so I would love to have it as an option, I'd pick it so fast.
And there was more teasing about whose attention John's really trying to get, Harley or Bruce.
It was a joke... but I completely understand it wasn't clear since the rest of what I wrote wasn't.
However, I can think of several scenarios in which John stabbing someone could make great story telling.
''Potential lover John accidentally hurting someone he cares about during one of his outburst'' might be very interesting, but only if done right. As he gets closer to becoming the Joker, I think what he calls his ''antisocial outbursts'' might get harder to contain. It would make for an interesting, creepy yet tragic scene...
And yeah, that whole lover to enemy is what's likely to happen if a romance arise. John certainly will hurt Bruce purposely eventually and I can see how this could be very interesting. The more attached Bruce feels to John, the sadder he will feel once John turns into the Joker.
I didn't mean that Bruce would feel thankful that John stabbed him. As AgentZ46 pointed out, it would make a great scene not an healthy and enjoyable end to a relationship from Bruce perspective.
I guess there was some miscommunication along the way. Thanks for clarifying your point. When you put it that way, I agree that it has potential for interesting storytelling.
I am of the opinion that he is currently trying to get Batman's attention... He asks Bruce for relationship advice and he uses it on all three of them. He uses it on Bruce during the coffee date itself, he uses it on Harley, clumsily, later in the episode, but he mostly uses it on Batman.
Whether you ask him to be genuine or pull her strings the key point is the same :
'' Lay her hand with a problem she has'' ( be genuine )
'' Find a problem she has and show her you are the only one who can solve it '' ( pull her strings )
Bruce says he wants and needs it and John can either refuse or accept depending on what you say. It also means he either care about pleasing you more than he does about pleasing Harley or he doesn't. '' She is Harley and you ? You are just Bruce'' ( he says if you fail to convince him ) '' '' I feel so much closer'' ( if you succeed in pull her strings )
Harley clearly wants and needs it it's her laptop, to take it from her for anyone is betrayal.
Batman doesn't even have to ask for it, John goes straight to him in order to ''lay a hand with a problem he has'' and ''show he is the only one who can solve it'' . Of course, John asks for Batman not to hurt Harley and it seems to have been difficult to betray Harley in such way but he does it all the same.
It all comes down to the laptop... anyone he gives it to is the one he truly wants to build the relationship he described to Bruce with, the one he wants to dance with, the one he wants to get to see him...
It's Batman and honestly it's either a good thing since it means he will try to impress the ''paragon of Justice'', or a bad thing because a Joker who loves Batman the most is often a Joker who takes pleasure in ''playing'' with him.
Maybe getting John to prefer either Bruce, Batman or Harley will be what makes the difference in the Joker we end up with ?
Also, I think John subconsciously knows Bruce is Batman. He doesn't ''know'' that he knows but his words and actions betrays that he has an idea...much like some other Joker who know and vaguely show they know but refuse to process the information because it would spoil the fun. John doesn't even bother asking Batman not to hurt Bruce while he clearly cares for Bruce safety ( going as far as speaking up for Bruce in front of Harley à, he says he will give the laptop to ''you and only you'', the '' I know who you really are'' can be interpreted in many ways, and he doesn't even seem to care or acknowledge that he didn't give Bruce the laptop as he said he would, not to Bruce ( of course, why would he ? ), but not to Batman either like he did with the whole Harley betrayal.
I think he knows but he doesn't know that he knows.
In nearly every version of Batman, there's an element of romance between Batman and Joker. Joker has previously stated Batman they are the yin and yang, that Batman completes him -- it's an obsession. That dangerous, deadly obsession has quite a few real life manifestations in which the obsessed persons involved truly feel or interpret it as love. Joker acts like a jealous person attempting to gain Batman's attention. In his twisted mind, all of the elaborate traps, schemes, and people harmed are like the dances between Batman and Catwoman -- all in fun.
There's an entire wikipedia page full of sited sources towards the homosexuality in the Batman Universe.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_Batman_franchise ) While society as a whole has become slightly more accepting of the lifestyle, it still seems as if in the media male homosexuality or even bisexuality is extremely taboo, whereas female homosexuality / bisexuality is perfectly fine. My own personal views aside, I consider that messed up.
That wikipedia page is really forced, and remember that anyone can create a wikipedia page and put whatever kind of information they want, most of the sources it lists are jokes or how the media wants to see Batman/Bruce.
Actually, most of sources contend that Bruce either is heterosexual or sexually repressed entirely with a few statements that Batman can be taken with homosexual undertones. Bill Finger, Alan Grant, Devin Grayson and Frank Miller have all said that Batman is not gay; but they have all been asked the question. To all have been asked the question, it does mean that many other people have perceived those undertones.
As for my personal views, Bruce Wayne is a repressed heterosexual. He psychologically denies the existence of himself in favor of Batman -- the ideal that he created for justice that possesses no need for companionship whether that includes partners or romantic interests. Even when he has them, he denies his need or want for them.
I only suggest the other views have merit because honestly they do me no harm in their creation. If TellTale created a path to romance John, I don't have to take that path. It's the same to me as romancing Harley or Selena. It's not the main plot. These writers have proven enough to me that they could handle any side paths with emotional integrity and entertainment value.
Yeah, no. It'd be weird. It would come outta nowhere. Its clear John is obsessed with Harley. He even says 'I can't imagine a world where her and I aren't destined to be together. It just wouldn't make any sense.' Or something to that affect.
Personally I would never, never, ever want to have John as an option. Like Harley said 'he's a growing boy.' It would be super, seriously creepy. He acts like a kid and looks like a clown.
And having the romance there would affect the writing. It's like with Selina. Even if you didn't hook up with her in season 1 the dialogue kind of just feels like her and Bruce are/were a thing. Even when they parted ways I kept thinking 'Hmm. This heartfelt goodbye would have made more sense to me had they slept together.'
No. John already rejects you (albeit reluctantly) if you ask him if he's in love with you. That should be enough closure for you.
Besides, I think John ships Gordon and Batman. If that scene where he mimics a conversation between them is anything to go by.
Yes! Their relationship is so much more interesting than whatever is happening between Catwoman and Batman. You are all so negative only because John is a dude. Aand John is clearly attracted to Bruce, always telling him how good it is to see him or how super handsome and smart he is
Hahaha I knew this question would pop up here eventually.
You can know when someone is attractive and not have the hots for them. And John being a dude isn't the only reason to be negative about it. Hell, I'd ship Oz and Bruce before I'd ever pair up John and Bruce.
I honestly believe it would just be the creepiest romance ever.
Also, IF John has a thing for Bruce, it seems one-sided. I haven't seen anything in my play through that would indicate that Bruce reciprocates. It even seems to me that Bruce gets uncomfortable. But, that's just one perspective of many.
If there MUST be a John Doe romance option, the only way it can work (as far as I can imagine) would be a one-sided attraction from John and in order to extract information and earn his trust, Bruce has to play along.
Which can lead to even more disastrous consequences when John gets the big reveal that Bruce isn’t really in love and is just using him.
I’d enjoy a BatJokes route, but I don’t think it’s for everyone. Honestly, I think the reason John is acting all cute and innocent is that he’s just manipulating everyone (even Batman) to get what he wants. Even though we become best buds in my own play through, I don’t trust him one bit.
And how do you know that John doesn't have hots for Bruce
From what I've seen in my playthrough he definitely does.
I can see that everyone has a personal interpretation of their relationship, but it would be nice if he was a romance option. There definitely is potential for them to be an interesting ship. And I am not a big fan of catwonam/batman stuff so it would be great to see something new and original.
Which is why I commented on perspective. I don't know that he doesn't, like you don't know if he does. Really, only the writers know. For now.
Something new and original like destroying 2 straight characters to turn them into gay/bisexual? Imagine the scandal if they were already gay and Teltalle turned them straight.
Trust me you don't want that... is already happen in flashpoint or something like that
Where Martha Wayne is the Joker and Thomas Wayne as Batman
If you really want gay romance you can take Jim Gordon
I do also think that having gay romance is not really close to being a plot of this game LoooL especially a romance with a gay antagonist
For our amusement will be hilarious
