my hopes for ep 5
i hope that we dont have to fight john no matter what i hope you can end it with him either being your red hood or arrested (vigalante route) or arrested with harley (Villain route) i hope he can stay friends with bruce , also a selina or avesta relationship and by the end its possible to recruit both along with john and to end it with either a bruce or batman. bruce ending they have a vacation and a funny john scene at the vacation place (if you stay friends) and a romantic moment with avesta / selina and alfred moment or the batman , batman and determinatly john and selina on rooftops ready to fight while tiffany , avesta and alfred are at the batcave please give me my dream.
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I don't think there is any choice that will stop us from taking down John...
I think a fight between the Joker and Batman is written in the stars.
but there has to be a blue outcome
John has already killed and blew cars, the police or the Agency will want his head. He is not a good guy in any case, he is brain sick. I don’t think he will end up in our side, he is going against what Batman believes in any scenario.
but remember arkham knight how many deaths did he directly and indirectly cause yet he is forgiven
No, it does not have to be a happy ending.
Bane does not have one, Freeze will not have one... Harley will not have a good ending/has not a good ending.
We had an option to trust him after he killed 3 ppl, to the extend of letting him handle Harley on the bridge.
So I guess we'll still have an option to try and talk some sense into his head after he attacked Waller and Agency. In my walkthrough Bruce promised to have " a serious talk" with him, that's what I think is going to happen along with "some serious beating".
The main problem is, if John was exposed to the virus, which is more than likely, his mental condition will only get worse. He's like rabid Jason Todd on drugs with randomly appearing frenzy mode, a lot of guns and misguided idealistic sense of justice. This version of vigilante Joker scares me. =D But I'll still try to guide him. So far didn't regret trusting him, everything had turned out for the better. At least, he still listens to Bruce and can be influenced. Better than pissed-off and angry Joker, who's determined to bite Batman's face off along with his own and everyone's else.
but they dont have the blue and yellow stats and harley doesnt have one anymore cause we wont be able to interact with her but john will have a major role in the finale so he'll have a stat with yellow likely arrested and he will have a blue outcome even if he doesnt work with you must have the chance to have a kinda positive relationship like whats the point of all these options of being his friend if hes gonna turn bad no matter then whats the point!!
They have had it for Harley in previous episodes... (Not sure about Bane and Freeze but perhaps after ep2)
There might not be any stats for John after episode 5... I would not read to much into that.
Yeah, John needs to go back to Arkham. Good intentions doesn't dismiss all the bad he's done and will continue to do. He's unstable and it'd be a bad, bad idea to keep him around as your partner-against-crime. He's shown to love violence and if he's exposed to that kind of environment on a nightly-basis there's just a more likely chance of him going villain rather than staying vigilante.
Welcome to Harvey Dent's fan club, here we gather around to cry and curse Telltale for making him crazy, no matter what option you picked and if you were the best bro of the bros to him, we still end up fighting him and he's still a psycho.
Except Arkham won't help him. He is beyond help, imho, his condition is not something you can "fix". He goes to Arkham - he escapes and becames more trouble than ever.
The only thing that can be done aside from killing him, is guiding him. It's impossible to held him in Arkham, trying to cure or lock him up is what makes him escape, kill more people and get locked again in circles in the classic universe.
Better put his destructive energy into something else. It's the only way to minimize the damage, imho.
The options here are:
a) Kill him and put an end to his threat. Which won't happen, because Batman against killing and TT will not kill Joker yet
b) Put him in Arkham and make him angry, because no way he will go back to Arkham willingly
c) Point him in the right direction to unleash his destructive energy, shape his views to acceptable point, where he can recognize blowing up bridges or stabbing angry fat ladies isn't nice thing to do.
With everything we know about Joker, I honestly think option C is the best for minimal casualties.
I'm not sure I believe option can happen, but I didn't believe he can be set on vigilantism path.
And in regards of his love for violence and exposure of his psyche to it on regular basis with the risk to go even more crazy. He was exposed to it the whole time in season 2, still, he is more responsive to camaraderie and genuine care than simple violence, that's why we can earn his trust and make him side with us. After all, he did chose the right thing to do before Waller ruined everything, didn't he? So, I think, he is rather improving than the other way around, and putting him in Arkham might ruin all progress. Unless we can get, I don't know, some magical vaccine from maddness for him.
Well if you can't lock him up then the best solution would be to kill him. He can't be guided. I mean, why minimize damage when you can avoid completely? His life isn't worth the random and multiple collateral he'll cause. And he was exposed to violence throughout season 2 and snapped and killed those agents before Waller pulled her gun on him so that doesn't prove a point that he can be steered in the right direction it does the opposite.
But I feel like Bruce is a billionaire, right? He could use that money to change how Arkham works. It could potentially be a place that actually helps people.
Well yeah, one of the final choices in season 1 (if you go as Bruce) is literally to renovate and build a better Arkham Asylum.
TT won't let us kill him, so it's not really an option.
Billionaire or not, Arkham helping people or not, John will not stay in Arkham. Why would he? Who would want to stay locked? Besides, I think he perfectly realize he can't be cured, so its like a life sentence in mental institution.
Those agents he killed he killed while frenzied. Even Bruce who hates murderers and death is willing to give him a chance, and Bruce is not us. He is Batman. He might be protagonist, but he is still his own character, so if he is okay(optionally) with John killing those ppl, he thinks John isn't beyond the reach.
How he didn't think twice about blowing the bridge and stabbed Waller concerns me more, but that can be discussed with him, I think.
How many more times is he gonna 'frenzy-out' on someone before it becomes too much? Putting him in a situation where he's constantly going to have to defend himself isn't going to keep him in control its just going to give him the excuse to do more and more.
Or it will force him to learn how to control himself. ) Bruce described him being "calm" on the bridge after Waller attacked.
We can only speculate until episode 5.
But Arkham only made things worse in the past, I don't think it will help John now, no matter if Bruce renovated it or not. Arkham might Harvey, who's condition is purely mental, but not John, who's condition is now more like natural than a sickness.
Besides, I think if we put him in Arkham, he will see it as a betrayal, unless we talk him into it. But I can't see right now how we can convince him to go back.
You know, they say it's a pure madness to try something again and again and every time expect different results from the same thing. Bruce always invested in Arkham Asylum. Didn't help. XD Ever. XD
I don't think that Bruce can feel "ok" about anyone killing anyone, and the justice needs to be served. You don't want to put John in Jail, You don't want to put Him in Arkham, so what's the other choice? Babysit him till the end of time?
He's not "ok", but, surprisingly, he's not automatically saying anything about justice, which happens than game forcefully keep him in character in some moments.
Batman is basically a Babysiter Man. He babysit every person in Gotham, especially villains. If not him, they all would have end up dead.
And I'm not mentoining his adopted kids.
Basically, yeah. Keep him close, control him, manipulate him - anything will do if it means Joker isn't just running around the city killing people for lulz. Give him purpose.
Well maybe in telltale it will. Different from canon, remember that.
I want to join.
Yup that's gonna work just fine! Cough cough, Jason, cough cough
I would say, that it is obvious that John is mentally unstable (to say the least), cannot define what is morally right or wrong, enjoys the violence, does not hesitate from killing others and is entirely unpredictable. Charming description for vigilante 'wannabe'...
If Batman would choose to 'guide' John on the vigilante path, instead of putting him in Arkham, then he would be responsible for all the wrongs that John would do. I do not think any sane person, and especially Batman who tries to save Gotham from criminals without killing even the most dangerous ones, would risk something like that. He can never know the moment when John may turn against him and metaphorically stab him in the back. He can't ignore the possibility, that John, in his twisted mind, would someday come to conclusion that the Batman is the one who is endangering the city and has to be destroyed and then there would be no one who will stand against him. Or John can even come up with the idea that the whole Gotham is beyond saving and has to be destroyed. It would turn out that Batman, being the only one who was able to stop Joker, instead of doing so in his naivety and optimism was supporting him in his vigilante role, unintentionally ‘arming’ the person who became the greatest danger to the people of Gotham and the whole Batman's mission.
It may be unpopular here, but I think Bruce who chooses to trust John is exactly what Alfred feared would happen at the beginning of the season – that by working closely with Pact he would get too attached the people, whom any other person would call criminals or psychopaths, and he would be somehow ‘dragged’ to their side. Bruce of course in his mind wants to do what he thinks is the right thing, in this case help John, but by doing that he is losing focus on the bigger picture and the possible danger that he is basically creating by supporting John in any way other than therapy in Arkham.
I think that the only thing left for Batman to do is to bring John down, put him in the Arkham and if he escapes, do it all over again. It does not matter how many times he would do it, each time he would be saving innocent people from getting hurt by Joker being on the loose. In the face of the crimes which John has already committed, he definitely needs to be stopped and I would say, that the only choice which Bruce should really face in the end should be killing Joker (going against his own principle of no killing) or putting him in Arkham (with the possibility of escape and possible more casualties).
Jason is a vigilante anti-hero, instead of a simple street thug he could've grow up to be if not for Bruce. Surely, he died a little, but I blame that guy from California for this, not Bruce. XD
Well I had Bruce trust him more of because I knew John was the best chance of getting to Harley. So my Bruce was still using John and it nearly worked had it not been for Waller. Grrr, that Waller!
But I agree with you whole-heartedly and 'vigilante wannabe' is probably the best term to describe John.
Knowing how crucial was getting to Harley as soon as possible, I was considering letting John help in dealing with her, but I did not buy his story about self-defense even in one bit and knowing that he is capable of everything, I just could not make myself to say I trust him and live with potential consequences of his actions, if he would go out with Bruce’s permission.
Even if all the time I tried to do the best thing possible in given situation and I would not change any of my decisions, after finishing ep4 with the result being a new villain on Gotham streets, I felt sorry for what happened, I felt guilty and as if I would just loose in a very important matter. That is really good, because I can imagine that it would be what Batman would feel in the moment like this, and that mean the writing was really well done. Thanks Telltale!
They are already foreshadowing John becoming evil, he talked a lot about the darkness inside him in episode 4.
I think he'll become a villain no matter what choices you make. Until then it was fun being friends with John, even though he is a psycho and what not, I could always count on him during this whole season.
well i hope they at least have a bruce x avesta / catwoman ending