I agree. Even if you make her your enemy in season 1 and 2 it was established that Bruce had an attraction to her. I think it was revealed a… mores early as episode 2 in season 1. That's not to say that he can't dislike or even hate her, but he was definitely attracted to her physically at some point and that much is permanent.
NO. No, no and no, please, no. XD Where is fanfiction for these kind of things. And this game is an adventure game, not a date simulator, really. In all honesty, I don’t get all those “optional romance” threads. Avesta, John, Harley, etc – they are characters, not sex dolls, they’re not obliged to long for Bruce’s dick just because Bruce/player wants to romance every person or object in the game. =D As for John, he told Bruce he's not interested, but he still want to be friends, shouldn't his opinion on this subject count for something?XD
And Bruce already has one optional romance option. It’s Selina. You can romance her, or not, but their romance arc is complicated and story driven enough. For 2 and more romance options where is bioware games and etc.
So, about John.
Joker-Batman relationship is my absolute number one favorite thing in the whole fandom, I was brought here by that relationship, and I feel extremely strong about how it handled and etc. =D So here comes the wall of text. =P
I LOVE how Telltale are handling it, they got the gist of Batman-Joker bond, imho, and where is nothing sexual about it, quite the opposite, they share very brotherly bond – just how I see it between them. They are like relatives in some way and I feel it’s like John sees an older brother/stern father figure in Bruce. Very similar to what the classic Joker sees in Batman, his creator. It’s not romantic, and ANY sexual tension will completely ruin the dynamic for me, even the possibility of it.
And I love how John uses words “father” and “brother” few times, talking about Bruce. The first I remember is in the backroom of Wayne Enterprises, when he says he likes Bruce’s “stern father” voice, and the second is if you won’t give him high five – he says, it’s an old way to express brotherhood, and how he’s hurt by Bruce refusing to play along.
He’s also very boyish yet, he’s not mature. That’s one of the reasons Harley isn’t interested in him at all, and I can’t think of a reason Bruce would – it’s kinda creepy, pedophilic even. He’s like growing up again, because of his trauma, which cost him memories and personality. He’s a grown up man, but he’s also a child. He addressed that too, during the bar scene, if you leave him hanging during pinky swear – he’s all sad and says something like: “Oh, well, I guess it’s a weird thing for two grown up men to do, on a second thought.” And Harley calls him “a growing boy”. And I think everyone in the Pact sees him as one. And Bruce too. I can see Harley use her sexuality to convince John to do what she wants, like she hugs him in the end of the third episode, but it’s just a game, it’s not like she is attracted to him.
I also love how innocent and awkward John sounds, when he’s calling Bruce “handsome” in front of the whole Pact, and Bruce looks embarrassed and a bit like “WTF?” =D And here goes “are you in love with me?” line.
Firstly, I want to say, the only thing I was completely sure about John, since his first appearance in season two, is what he really cares about Bruce. Joker loving Batman is as much a part of his character as a smile, or his laugh, or his sadistic humor, or white skin and etc. The dynamic just wouldn’t work without it. But, as I said, this love lacks sexuality. It’s more like an obsession with other human being, fanboyism, one-sided bromance.
So, basically, I know he loves Bruce, but John’s line “I think I’m in love” and Bruce’s question “Are you in love with me?” have romantic context, that’s why John look’s taken aback by the question. Because he’s romantically in love with Harley, not Bruce, and he is all like: “Wut.” =D Harley goes first now. Besides, he knew her much longer in this universe. =D He knew Bruce for, lol, how long, one day? And Harley was his doctor at first, and his boss after he left Arkham. They spent A LOT of time together. I think John’s priorities over those two people will shift in the future, but not in romantic regard. He’ll just get more obsessed with Bruce/Batman, and Harley will go second.
But I love it already, how in this universe Bruce/Batman/player have competition in the face of Harley. Because usually, I think, it would’ve taken one word from Batman to Joker change his plans in favor of their new violent encounter. But NOT IN THIS UNIVERSE. =D Here you can actually hear this: “Sorry, Bruce… But you’re just…. Bruce. And Harley is… HARLEY!” It’s funny and fresh, and gives me the motive to win him over, because Harley is a bad influence for him. =D
Also, the look he gives Bruce, if Bruce choose to ask “Are you in love with me” is a familiar look, which appears pretty often on John’s face, and this look appears when he’s confused, or not happy, or feeling annoyed, or someone is rude to him. Here is few examples of when it does appears:
1 season, if Bruce refuses to lie in John’s defense and says to Leland: “He’s lying, he took out the attackers”. And John puts this expression on his face, and when says: “Rude.”
2 season, when Willie is calling him back, and John tells him about medicine being under the chair. When, second time in the same bar’s scene, when Willie tells Bruce he’s bothering his “friend John”.
When Tiffany calls John and Harley “psychos”, he is offended and tells her not to be rude and etc.
When Harley is having an outburst in the elevator, and smashing her hammer into the wall, John have the same expression + the mix of slight fear and shock.
Basically, John gets this expression when he’s confused, not sure what to think, taken aback and generally doesn’t like that much what he sees or hears.
He’s expecting Bruce to share his excitement, when he tells him about himself being in love, but Bruce, instead, answers him with confusing and out of place question. =D Considering John is having hard time understanding his feelings at all, it’s no wonder he’s taken aback, because he’s indeed feeling strong about Bruce, just not in this regard. But I can feel his disappointment in the air, like he was expecting Bruce to say something like “Wow! That’s extremely cool! I can relate!” but instead he got something like this. XD It's similar to how he get's upset or dissapointed if you tell him love is for the losers, or stay silent. Because he expected Bruce's support and excitment. Because that's what friends do in his worldview.
I also adore their parallels with Harley/Selina! =D I feel like they both despise each other’s choice of love interests, and both are struggling for attention and influence. I feel like John just generally dislikes Catwoman, because she was cozy with the Riddler, and a bit bossy around John, and steals Bruce’s attention, and John doesn’t trust her, because he read people well (when it doesn’t come to his friends, lol) and so he knows she’s manipulative and tricky. And Bruce doesn’t like Harley, because he sees how she treats John, he sees her attempts to manipulate and play them both, he doesn’t like her brutality, her methods and they constantly at each others throats with power play. And he’s also trying to win John’s respect over her, to the point where she actually says “Hands off, that’s my toy!”
It’s just so funny, how they both forced to tolerate each other’s “girlfriends”, lol, and how John is trying to learn from Bruce-Selina dynamic how to handle his own private life. I’m can literally hear the sound of Harley flying through the window, if you throw Selina instead of kissing her, lol!XD
Those parallels are really strong, and I consider this whole thing with Bruce-Selina, John-Harley very important for Bruce and John dynamics. It doesn’t matter, if player choose to romance Selina or not, because either way Selina have feelings for Bruce. No matter what you do. And I have an impression, the same come for Bruce – even if he denies to John his attraction to Selina, the dreamy look and a slight smile he gives to his coffee cup, lol, it’s all where. And when John tells him “When you’re blind, Catwoman clearly sees something in you!”. And I’m not Selina/Bruce ship fan at all, lol, I can’t say Selina makes my top fav characters even. But it’s just where – they’re attracted to each other. Bruce just can deny it, or accept it. Kinda annoyed me in the first season.
But it’s just… Batman and Joker sitting at the table, drinking coffee, discussing how life is a bitch and so are their girlfriends, lol, thank you, Telltale! =D
This whole John-Harley, Bruce-Selina dynamics opens so many aspects.
I love it how John asks Bruce to help him with Harley, how he comes to Bruce, when Harley is in danger, because Bruce is the first person John will think of, when trouble appears. I LOVE how he gets jealous, if Bruce responds to Harley advances! That’s adds so much competition between them, and that’s extremely important, imho. Also, this moment, when John tells Bruce he wants to talk with him alone about Selina, who he doesn’t trust, and almost immediately Bruce asks John carefully why does he love Harley, and looks very disturbed by the answer.
Give John a romance option, and it all will disappear. Every single line will get the second meaning, all their interactions will have a hidden subtext. Everything will lose it’s innocence. Like with Selina – you don’t have to romance her, but you know, Bruce and her are attracted, you see the hints. They’re not “just friends”, they have that hidden or obvious romance going on.
But unlike Selina and Bruce, John and Bruce lack those hints right now. They have bromance already, one-sided or not is up to the player. But it’s not sexual, and an option of it becoming sexual will make it sexual as a whole. It won’t be an “optional”, lol. So it will be forced on me, for example, and I will lose all those things I consider dear and important. =D
So I really hope it won’t become a real option, because if you want you can always ship them in your head. The path is open. But in the game, if it’s done it’s done, where is no coming back. Even more, it will impact the whole fandom, you will not hear the end of “Telltale did officially romantically shipped Joker and Batman!” And I’m really tired of fanficiton shipping them in this way, so, please, no. =D And I think Telltale do understand perfectly all those points, that’s why they push their bromance as far, as they can, so people who ship them romantically could get as much, as possible, but not to the point of no return. They’re not crossing the line.
By the way, the fine example is "Life is strange". Where is an option to romance your best friend, or not. But if you choose not to, you'll feel it anyway, because developers put it here. Those two people are romantically attracted to each other, it's just either stays hidden or open. But TT Batman right now? I don't feel the same thing between John and Bruce, not at all, and I want it to stay this way.
Besides that, I really think romance would be a bad choice from the narrative point of view. Like, what does it add to the story? Nothing. Kinda cheapens it, contrary, in my opinion.
Their possible bond will remain be much stronger, if it stays as it is now. Add romance and you’ll ruin it.
Isn’t it enough how we get so much time with John already? We even have an option to teach him throw batarangs, for god’s sake! XD Bruce is already important to him. They have stable, friendly relationship. Let’s not push it further. XD Because usually Joker is trying to stab Batman with a knife, while ripping his face off and shooting Barbara Gordon at the same time, and during all this Batman is busy making a bloody human meat sandwich out of him, so I think their current relationship is a big enough change. No need to get greedy, because if this will come to life, other ppl, like me, will be left unhappy. =D
Because, I repeat, IT WON”T be optional. It’ll give the second meaning to everything! =D
And nothing could be worse for me.
NO. No, no and no, please, no. XD Where is fanfiction for these kind of things. And this game is an adventure game, not a date simulator, re… moreally. In all honesty, I don’t get all those “optional romance” threads. Avesta, John, Harley, etc – they are characters, not sex dolls, they’re not obliged to long for Bruce’s dick just because Bruce/player wants to romance every person or object in the game. =D As for John, he told Bruce he's not interested, but he still want to be friends, shouldn't his opinion on this subject count for something?XD
And Bruce already has one optional romance option. It’s Selina. You can romance her, or not, but their romance arc is complicated and story driven enough. For 2 and more romance options where is bioware games and etc.
So, about John.
Joker-Batman relationship is my absolute number one favorite thing in the whole fandom, I was brought here by that relationship, and I feel extremely strong about how it h… [view original content]
NO. No, no and no, please, no. XD Where is fanfiction for these kind of things. And this game is an adventure game, not a date simulator, re… moreally. In all honesty, I don’t get all those “optional romance” threads. Avesta, John, Harley, etc – they are characters, not sex dolls, they’re not obliged to long for Bruce’s dick just because Bruce/player wants to romance every person or object in the game. =D As for John, he told Bruce he's not interested, but he still want to be friends, shouldn't his opinion on this subject count for something?XD
And Bruce already has one optional romance option. It’s Selina. You can romance her, or not, but their romance arc is complicated and story driven enough. For 2 and more romance options where is bioware games and etc.
So, about John.
Joker-Batman relationship is my absolute number one favorite thing in the whole fandom, I was brought here by that relationship, and I feel extremely strong about how it h… [view original content]
NO. No, no and no, please, no. XD Where is fanfiction for these kind of things. And this game is an adventure game, not a date simulator, re… moreally. In all honesty, I don’t get all those “optional romance” threads. Avesta, John, Harley, etc – they are characters, not sex dolls, they’re not obliged to long for Bruce’s dick just because Bruce/player wants to romance every person or object in the game. =D As for John, he told Bruce he's not interested, but he still want to be friends, shouldn't his opinion on this subject count for something?XD
And Bruce already has one optional romance option. It’s Selina. You can romance her, or not, but their romance arc is complicated and story driven enough. For 2 and more romance options where is bioware games and etc.
So, about John.
Joker-Batman relationship is my absolute number one favorite thing in the whole fandom, I was brought here by that relationship, and I feel extremely strong about how it h… [view original content]
He is also the one Batman is the most strongly connected to, the yin to his yang, the nihilist to his Kantianism, the Patroclus to his Achilles, and if there's a tiny bit of Joker in Batman, there's a tiny bit of Batman in Joker too...
Our vigilante is a freak.
But on a more serious note... OP seems to be talking about Telltale's Joker, who doesn't quite fit the whole ''cold blooded'' description... We don't even have enough to call him the ''most violent''... We can see it coming that's for sure, but we are not quite there yet.
I find the argument about "breaking canon" and "destroying characters" to be kinda ridiculous when we're talking about changing a character's sexuality. But especially so in the context of this series in particular, since breaking off from established batman lore is one of telltale's major goals here. I mean y'all remember they made Thomas Wayne the philanthropist into a twisted monster and made Vicki Vale, the frankly bland ass Lois Lane wannabe, into a competent and highly disturbed villain? Did that ruin those characters? No, it didn't. It made things more interesting in the ways those changes shaped the story, and caused it to diverge from established batman canon. In fact I'd argue that these changes are what make me love this series so much, because there comes a point where the wheel needs to be re-invented, or at least innovated upon.
It feels like we've been getting the same batman stories for years and years now, with very little deviation in the way the characters are portrayed, at least as far as major releases (like movies, tv and games) are concerned. Telltale's series is honestly the first time in a long time that batman has felt fresh and exciting to me.
Instead of trying to just emulate what has come before, they are, in many cases, remaking the lore to service the stories they want to tell. And if having John as an optional romance option for Bruce is something they want to do, I see no reason as to why they couldn't do that. This series has deviated from the lore so much already, that saying a Bat/Joker relationship would somehow break canon is honestly a bit silly..
Anyway, didn't mean to turn this into an essay but whoops ¯_(ツ)_/¯. TL;DR I don't see how changing a character's sexuality (like making John and/or Bruce bisexual) is any different from changing a character's personality or history, which Telltale has already done multiple times already. So I personally would welcome a romance option with John, if for no other reason because it would be interesting and something completely new.
I don't think making Bruce or John bisexual helps the story at all. There's absolutely no point to it and, being this far into the story with the Sanctus reveal and all, seems to be a total distraction from the actual plot. I mean, I've seen lots of posts explaining that it would add to the devastation, which I don't see how that's possible.
First off, we all know he's becoming the Joker that's no surprise so how does romancing him make it harder? Second, some people have Bruce and John as good friends so the drama is already there.
Third, John suddenly becoming an option will do one of two things to the dialogue: It will either make it seem like everyone romanced him even if they hadn't or it'll add some random kiss scene that was utterly pointless as everything turns out the same and didn't add anymore than the actual friendship. In which case why would anyone need it?
We've got one optional romance already, with Harley as a possible second, does anyone really need a third? I certainly don't and I'm honestly hoping that the whole Harley thing never happens either. Her, John and even Selina have had enough screen time and I'd like for telltale to give whatever scraps they can to Bane and Freeze.
Not to mention it seriously would come out of nowhere. It's been made clear John is in love with Harley. I mean, I don't understand how people are having such a hard time grasping that. And while it's possible he is bisexual in this version and maybe has a crush on Bruce, his romantic feels are targeted at Harley.
Also the John and Bruce thing is already an altered canon without them being in a romance. The Joker and Bruce never actually started out as friends in the comics or movies, as far as I know. And technically making John bisexual or gay isn't an alteration as the Joker used to be if you go by a previous post by Mellorine, so that much is nothing new and has already been done.
I find the argument about "breaking canon" and "destroying characters" to be kinda ridiculous when we're talking about changing a character'… mores sexuality. But especially so in the context of this series in particular, since breaking off from established batman lore is one of telltale's major goals here. I mean y'all remember they made Thomas Wayne the philanthropist into a twisted monster and made Vicki Vale, the frankly bland ass Lois Lane wannabe, into a competent and highly disturbed villain? Did that ruin those characters? No, it didn't. It made things more interesting in the ways those changes shaped the story, and caused it to diverge from established batman canon. In fact I'd argue that these changes are what make me love this series so much, because there comes a point where the wheel needs to be re-invented, or at least innovated upon.
It feels like we've been getting the same batman stories for years and years now, with very little… [view original content]
I’m perplexed as to why every female at DC is bi but they don’t even make any of the prominent males queer in even an Elseworld- especially Batman. And don’t tell me not-Hal Jordan counts. Second to Wonder Woman, NO other character has been as steeped in innuendo and, like Wonder Woman, the notion the character might be gay and still became wildly popular in the 50s is a feat like no other. I think someone, somewhere, somehow should pay tribute to that rather than copping it up to cheap camp or perv fan fiction (as if Harley & Ivy wasn’t, at least initially).
That being said, NOT with John but perhaps someone else. I’d love it if Bruce could be bi- bi because I see Catwoman as his ultimate love no matter what. Also, aren’t these games about choice!?
I wouldn't mind it. And I think it will add dept to their dangeours relationship. As some people said in here, it will be the creepiest and weirdest thing. To bad people proyect too much on the "sexuality" part. I don't think that is necessary. Any sort of "emotional romance" between them would be dark, twisted and dangerous.
I find Batman and Joker "paring" kind of similar to the romantic relationship between Hannibal Lecter and Will Graham. No necessarily sexual. Is more like an emotionally deep and dark connection founded in their mutual "madness". If Telltale dares going that way I just hope is not very "dark". I like the little subtleties and the funny parts.
That "hug" in the last episode had lots of hidden emotions on it. From the creepy music and the setting, the camera angle, the corpses around them and the huge implications of trusting John "one more time". Then, the way John pulls at Bruce's hand and hugs him took me completly by surprise. I applaud you Telltale. I been reading Batman comics for 20 years, and is the first time I felt that all that twisted "dark romance" subtext in the comics, movies, videogames and media was condensed in just one hug.
I hope you guys can add more things like that, don't listen to the negativity, you guys doing great with both characters. Can't wait to see were you can push the story in new ways.
Im just gonna leave this here for the Bruce x John shippers who want to see the different hug options:
Im so happy Telltale put this in. They should just go for it in episode 5 and have them kiss already honestly.
I'd be against it. I hate whenever friendships cannot just be that - friendships. Doesn't matter if it's the same sex or opposite. Like Agent Avesta and I are friends in my playthrough, but I do not want any romance between us since my Batman/Bruce is with Catwoman/Selina. I mean, having more choices and branches are always a plus, but what about accidentally getting in a romance with a character? For example: In TWD: ANF Javier has a line that causes Jesus to feel as though Javier is flirting with him; I chose that line which was something like, "You're so rad."
I totally agree, I had the same issue with Mass Effect games, my Shepard had to be extremely cautious when talking to other characters in order to avoid accidental flirting, I don't need that here.
I'd be against it. I hate whenever friendships cannot just be that - friendships. Doesn't matter if it's the same sex or opposite. Like Agen… moret Avesta and I are friends in my playthrough, but I do not want any romance between us since my Batman/Bruce is with Catwoman/Selina. I mean, having more choices and branches are always a plus, but what about accidentally getting in a romance with a character? For example: In TWD: ANF Javier has a line that causes Jesus to feel as though Javier is flirting with him; I chose that line which was something like, "You're so rad."
Interesting.
This little guy gave more to Bruce than many other people that were there before he was. He saved him countless times, he lied to the love of his life for him, he put his own life on the line for him, he continued to defend him even after he learned Bruce was using him, he accepted helping Bruce put Harley to justice as long as she was left unharmed both in the third and fourth episode, and that... despite the fact it meant losing everything, he then almost got shot after helping and yet still held onto the hope Bruce will stand by him and ''clean Gotham with him''.
When did anyone else ever ?
Hey Bruce may not be ''sure if Batman should help John'' anymore, Bruce may not feel the same way John does, but I am still not abandoning such a loyal friend to his own mind as long as the options come up.
Source : Here
Interesting.
This little guy gave more to Bruce than many other people that were there before he was. He saved him countl… moreess times, he lied to the love of his life for him, he put his own life on the line for him, he continued to defend him even after he learned Bruce was using him, he accepted helping Bruce put Harley to justice as long as she was left unharmed both in the third and fourth episode, and that... despite the fact it meant losing everything, he then almost got shot after helping and yet still held onto the hope Bruce will stand by him and ''clean Gotham with him''.
When did anyone else ever ?
Hey Bruce may not be ''sure if Batman should help John'' anymore, Bruce may not feel the same way John does, but I am still not abandoning such a loyal friend to his own mind as long as the options come up.
I'd be against it. I hate whenever friendships cannot just be that - friendships. Doesn't matter if it's the same sex or opposite. Like Agen… moret Avesta and I are friends in my playthrough, but I do not want any romance between us since my Batman/Bruce is with Catwoman/Selina. I mean, having more choices and branches are always a plus, but what about accidentally getting in a romance with a character? For example: In TWD: ANF Javier has a line that causes Jesus to feel as though Javier is flirting with him; I chose that line which was something like, "You're so rad."
Promised to get you to the phone in Arkham by stabbing a guy, making a fight, getting people almost killed, and if you get involved into stopping the fight, you get knocked out cold, and if you don't, people die.
Your loyal friend got himself into a funeral just to be an annoyance and disrespectful
Your loyal friend lied about knowing Riddler location, if he had told us that from the beginning, Blake and the other agent wouldn't have died or Avesta wouldn't have ended up deaf, since we would have arrived there sooner without having to interrogate anyone
Your loyal friend makes "group talks" in a bar just to mess with people and get a laugh out of them
Your loyal friend laughs while Harley threatens you to blow up your brains with her gun
Your loyal friend laughed like a psychopath after Harley almost killed a guard just to enter Wayne Enterprises
If you lie saying you don't know Tifanny, John immediately tells to Harley that she's your friend
Your loyal friend took pictures and even laughed of how you fought with Catwoman instead of stopping the fight or helping Bruce.
Your loyal friends threatens to tell Harley about you wanting the laptop
Your loyal friend promised to give me the laptop, and ended up giving it to Batman (funny, heh, but even if he knows Bruce is Batman at the time, Bruce doesn't know he knows, as far as Bruce knows John just betrayed him)
Your loyal friend gave me a punch to me the interrogation more real
Your loyal friend, AFTER HE STOLE THE LAPTOP, wanted me to blame Catwoman or myself
Your loyal friends threatened to shoot us and Avesta because he's angry Harley left him
If you tell him you want to go with him, again in that scene, he again, threatens to shoot you and Avesta
Your loyal friend outright lies to you about how he killed those agents in Self defense just so you won't think any less of him
Your loyal friend tries to punch us twice if we don't believe his little story
Your loyal friend, doesn't matter the ending, blows up a bridge in which you were on it, he could have gotten you hurt but did he care? Nope
Source : Here
Interesting.
This little guy gave more to Bruce than many other people that were there before he was. He saved him countl… moreess times, he lied to the love of his life for him, he put his own life on the line for him, he continued to defend him even after he learned Bruce was using him, he accepted helping Bruce put Harley to justice as long as she was left unharmed both in the third and fourth episode, and that... despite the fact it meant losing everything, he then almost got shot after helping and yet still held onto the hope Bruce will stand by him and ''clean Gotham with him''.
When did anyone else ever ?
Hey Bruce may not be ''sure if Batman should help John'' anymore, Bruce may not feel the same way John does, but I am still not abandoning such a loyal friend to his own mind as long as the options come up.
I don't think he lied about self-defense.
I'm not saying he's an awesome friend or a good man. Most of your points are valid, but you don't mention him attacking Bane or Freeze for us or betraying Harley for us, or tolerating us outright using him. People don't like to be used in general, and he know Bruce to some extend using him, he's not an idiot.
Good friend Bruce led him and the rest of the Pact into a trap in the second episode, after all, and we knew with Waller in command he and anyone in their gang could be killed.
My point is - he did a lot of shit, but good things too, it's not like he doesn't care and just using us.
I was extremly angry at him in lot of situations, like with Catwoman fight or Willey, or trying to blame Selina, but I can ignore his efforts.
Besides, he was spineless before episode 4. So I didn't expect him to help me in the fight or stood up to Harley.
Your loyal friend:
* Promised to get you to the phone in Arkham by stabbing a guy, making a fight, getting people almost killed, and if… more you get involved into stopping the fight, you get knocked out cold, and if you don't, people die.
* Your loyal friend got himself into a funeral just to be an annoyance and disrespectful
* Your loyal friend lied about knowing Riddler location, if he had told us that from the beginning, Blake and the other agent wouldn't have died or Avesta wouldn't have ended up deaf, since we would have arrived there sooner without having to interrogate anyone
* Your loyal friend makes "group talks" in a bar just to mess with people and get a laugh out of them
* Your loyal friend laughs while Harley threatens you to blow up your brains with her gun
* Your loyal friend laughed like a psychopath after Harley almost killed a guard just to enter Wayne Enterprises
* If you lie saying you don't know Tifanny, John immedi… [view original content]
I accidently triggered romance with Alenko in ME1, lol, I didn't even noticed HOW, and close to finale he just came to me flirting with spend-night-together proposal, I was horrified and send him away, but he still wrote me a lot of letters in the second game and when tried to romance me in ME3. That was funny and frustrating at the same time.
I totally agree, I had the same issue with Mass Effect games, my Shepard had to be extremely cautious when talking to other characters in order to avoid accidental flirting, I don't need that here.
I do not know if it was written for fun or seriously but I will answer as if it was a serious post. No offence, but I strongly disagree.
John acts like psychotic maniac, that’s what he does. He decided to help Bruce in Arkham not because Bruce was his friend, because Bruce just met him 2 minutes before, but because he just decided he would do that out of the blue (or for fun, or for his secret agenda), causing a fight where people could have died, having the time of his life watching it. No matter how much Bruce would try to distantiate from John, John is still glued to him, pressing on this idea of friendship which isn’t a real friendship because there was no real foundation for it. John has issues with a split personality, how can we know if his darker side is not ‘leading’ his more genuine side all the time, manipulating Bruce? And even if he was genuine, his actions were all the time kind of creepy. Look at the things which he said to Tiffany at Lucius funeral. Really? This is the kind of guy who anyone would wish to be a friend with? And it is not just the lack of empathy, but he committed real crimes, killed people without any sign of remorse.
@Kaelthas did awesome job summing all the ‘off’ behaviours of John In the post above.
I am probably in minority, but in my playtrough I tried to have as little to do with John as it was possible. And not because I do not like the character – I think he is awesomely written, but ‘my’ Bruce got involved into the Pact only because the mission required it. I tried to push John away without ‘hurting his feelings’ and without blowing up the cover. And what did I get in return? John was acting like a stalker/maniac all the time. All conversations with him felt off, all those pictures with Bruce’s face attached to them – John all the time acts like an emotionally unstable psychotic person.
It does not mean that I wished him any harm, no. At the beginning there were even moments, when I felt somewhat bad for him. I tried to help him guiding him to the right path during conversations, but this guy is seriously ill.
I do think that the best thing which Bruce may do for John is to make him to get back to Arkham to get help there.
And it is not like other people do not care about Bruce. Bruce is alone, because of his own issues caused by the trauma from his childhood. Because of it, he is pushing people away. He is fully focused on his mission, allowing only the selected few people get closer to him (Alfred, Lucius and with time Selina, Harvey, Tiffany, Gordon). I think it is one of major points of this season. Bruce has to learn to lean on people, learn to let others help him. Alfred mentioned it by saying that he will not always be there for Bruce, Lucius said to Bruce that burden is lighter when carried by many. That’s why it is awesome when Bruce has a chance to share his secret with Tiffany and let her be involved into the mission. That is why it felt right, when Bruce had this friendly conversation with Avesta in the car, letting her know himself a little bit better. And that is also why I really liked the option for Bruce to say to Harley that he is not alone, when he was standing to fight against the Pact with Selina by his side. Those are small things but these are the foundations for real relationships.
Source : Here
Interesting.
This little guy gave more to Bruce than many other people that were there before he was. He saved him countl… moreess times, he lied to the love of his life for him, he put his own life on the line for him, he continued to defend him even after he learned Bruce was using him, he accepted helping Bruce put Harley to justice as long as she was left unharmed both in the third and fourth episode, and that... despite the fact it meant losing everything, he then almost got shot after helping and yet still held onto the hope Bruce will stand by him and ''clean Gotham with him''.
When did anyone else ever ?
Hey Bruce may not be ''sure if Batman should help John'' anymore, Bruce may not feel the same way John does, but I am still not abandoning such a loyal friend to his own mind as long as the options come up.
I didn't mention that because the guy I quoted already said that, but my point wasn't listing all his actions, I was showing how he wasn't a loyal friend to Bruce, yeah, one time or two he was goody goody, that doesn't erase bad actions, hell, if we have to make a list of good and bad, bad already won.
I don't think he lied about self-defense.
I'm not saying he's an awesome friend or a good man. Most of your points are valid, but you don'… moret mention him attacking Bane or Freeze for us or betraying Harley for us, or tolerating us outright using him. People don't like to be used in general, and he know Bruce to some extend using him, he's not an idiot.
Good friend Bruce led him and the rest of the Pact into a trap in the second episode, after all, and we knew with Waller in command he and anyone in their gang could be killed.
My point is - he did a lot of shit, but good things too, it's not like he doesn't care and just using us.
I was extremly angry at him in lot of situations, like with Catwoman fight or Willey, or trying to blame Selina, but I can ignore his efforts.
Besides, he was spineless before episode 4. So I didn't expect him to help me in the fight or stood up to Harley.
Sorry, but I listened to the whole monologue in game and for me that's and the way he reacts if we don't believe him is the main reason why I think he was telling the truth =/
We can only speculate, because we don't know for sure, but that's my opinion. He was thinking about lying. Maybe he lied about details, but I don't think he lied about life or death situation.
He lied to you buddy
I didn't mention that because the guy I quoted already said that, but my point wasn't listing all his actions, I w… moreas showing how he wasn't a loyal friend to Bruce, yeah, one time or two he was goody goody, that doesn't erase bad actions, hell, if we have to make a list of good and bad, bad already won.
I agree that the option to romance John should be that, completely optional. They could achive this with the dialogue. Like some people posted, the subtext is already in the game. For those who are interested, they could unlock it by actively choosing such dialogue options throughout the whole game.
Like, for example, defending John from Willy with violence, asking John if he is "in love with me" option. Staring at John on the cafe when he talks about the Arkham lights, telling him we have each other in the assault in the lab, etc. I don't think you could trigger romance by mistake with those options. You would need to atively look for it.
It shouldn't be forced on people who dosen't want it, and if we want to keeps friends with John without romance him, we should be able to do that.
I'd be against it. I hate whenever friendships cannot just be that - friendships. Doesn't matter if it's the same sex or opposite. Like Agen… moret Avesta and I are friends in my playthrough, but I do not want any romance between us since my Batman/Bruce is with Catwoman/Selina. I mean, having more choices and branches are always a plus, but what about accidentally getting in a romance with a character? For example: In TWD: ANF Javier has a line that causes Jesus to feel as though Javier is flirting with him; I chose that line which was something like, "You're so rad."
Come on... You can't possibly be serious. If you don't like John it's fine, but to deny the fact he has been one of the most loyal character and gave everything for Bruce is just denial at this point... I can't talk for what will happen next episode, I can only review the past.
John saved or tried to save Bruce at least once an episode ( season 1 included ). His mental illness and appeal for violence doesn't make him any less loyal...quite the contrary in fact. Despite his mental illness and desire to see stuff ''go wrong'', he lets Bruce deal with things in a more subtle manner and accept to do ''good'' for him, which he probably find boring or at least less exciting than the opposite.
I never said he was a textbook good guy, he has little to no empathy, he is drawn to criminals, he is so passionate about things it becomes unhealthy really fast and he keeps them close even as they hurt him/others, it's a reciepie for trouble. I said he was a loyal friend to Bruce and he would tolerate stuff no one else would because of that.
but since I love talking about them well...
Promised to get you to the phone in Arkham by stabbing a guy, making a fight, getting people almost killed, and if you get involved into stopping the fight, you get knocked out cold, and if you don't, people die.
Would you say it proves he isn't loyal or that he just doesn't hesitate to use violence to get what he/you want(s) ? Everyone knows John enjoys violence, I don't really see the link with loyalty or friendship there. He can be a loyal friend and yet bloodthirsty... can't he ?
Your loyal friend got himself into a funeral just to be an annoyance and disrespectful
You would be right if you didn't ignore the whole plot there ( so spoiler alert you are not ). If I remember well he did get there to ask for a favor, and have you help him get rid of the riddler ( he probably already knew you were Batman so by helping you he also helped himself ).
His antisocial behavior is his consistant behavior. He can switch from one extreme to the other rather quickly, and obviously the context wouldn't fit with someone like him. He went where he knew he could find you, to expect him to ''behave'' once he path the churches door is too much.
I don't even know why I took the time responding to that one... just what the hell.
I could switch it in my favor and ignore everything that doesn't prove my point : ''My loyal friend got himself into a funeral just so he could catch up with me '' '' My loyal friend got himself into a funeral just so he could help me arrest Riddler ''
and honestly while I would be purposely ignoring what he himself admitted he would get from it, it would be way closer to the truth.
Your loyal friend lied about knowing Riddler location, if he had told us that from the beginning, Blake and the other agent wouldn't have died or Avesta wouldn't have ended up deaf, since we would have arrived there sooner without having to interrogate anyone
You are right about the lying part, but remember his goal was to set up Riddler, and get into Bruce/batman's good side... He doesn't care about those agents, if anything it probably is funnier for him to see them die and learn a little more about Batman's morals and how he operates.
Once again...I said he was loyal. He helped you get what you want, it doesn't mean he needs to be a superhero by episode 1 .
Your loyal friend makes "group talks" in a bar just to mess with people and get a laugh out of them
What's your point ? It doesn't make him any less of a loyal friend to Bruce. You might be trying to explain to me how John is a ''bad person'' with all these arguments, which is not something I said or denied in my original comment.
Your loyal friend laughs while Harley threatens you to blow up your brains with her gun
And defends you several times in the same breath so she trusts you, and doesn't, in fact, blow your brains out. Seems like John to me, he enjoys violence, but not when the life of people he genuinely care about is threatened... What's your point ?
Your loyal friend laughed like a psychopath after Harley almost killed a guard just to enter Wayne Enterprises
To save her life...what the fuck... how is that disloyal of him to save your friend ( even though I am sure he doesn't care at all if she lives or dies, he does it for Bruce and Bruce alone ).
Your loyal friend took pictures and even laughed of how you fought with Catwoman instead of stopping the fight or helping Bruce.
I doubt he can take Catwoman, might as well take pictures rather than have Bruce worry about him, and he tried to get in her way once he saw Bruce couldn't handle her. He also got you the laptop.
Your loyal friends threatens to tell Harley about you wanting the laptop
Immature John is acting immature... color me not surprised. But even then... no matter how douchey you are, no matter if he probably knows you are a mole by now and no matter how much he pretends ''Harley is Harley'', he does not. Maybe he cares about you ?
Your loyal friend promised to give me the laptop, and ended up giving it to Batman (funny, heh, but even if he knows Bruce is Batman at the time, Bruce doesn't know he knows, as far as Bruce knows John just betrayed him)
Please... He knows Bruce is Batman, so like you said... he didn't betray him. Bruce feelings aren't enough to sway facts.
Your loyal friend gave me a punch to me the interrogation more real
And I am glad he did ? If Harley suspected them both of treason they would be dead. You can't blame him for being pragmatic.
I said ''hit me again'' and I meant it.
Your loyal friend, AFTER HE STOLE THE LAPTOP, wanted me to blame Catwoman or myself
He never wanted you to take the blame... I think it was the whole point of him ''begging'' Harley to interrogate you and actively trying to make the whole thing believable. He doesn't care about Catwoman, maybe I wasn't specific enough when I said ''loyal friend'', I definitly meant Bruce and no one else.
He stole the laptop for you, why would he take the blame . The nerve Bruce has to ask him to do so after he risked his neck for him, it's hilarious.
Even when you decide to take the blame he goes and stands up for you against Harley.
Your loyal friends threatened to shoot us and Avesta because he's angry Harley left him
He said it was just a joke ? Why so serious ?
No honestly, the guy was drunk and broken, but even then he merely took it in his hands and didn't point at anyone with it.
If you tell him you want to go with him, again in that scene, he again, threatens to shoot you and Avesta
Can't say I saw that part so I'll just remain silent.
Your loyal friend outright lies to you about how he killed those agents in Self defense just so you won't think any less of him
I don't see how he lied. He seems to think he did it in self defense if you actually listen to his monologue, but he doesn't remember enough to be perfectly sure and question himself. John seems to have a general bad opinion of cops, he keeps saying they shoot first and ask question later, I believe it's truly what he thinks ( which Walller pretty much confirmed for him at the end, and the fact he already that image of the agency is one of the many reasons he acted recklessly at the end ). If he didn't act in self defense, it's lickely he genuinely believes he has... I think he says the truth and it's all a blur.
Your loyal friend tries to punch us twice if we don't believe his little story
And you can punch back ? I don't see how mentally unstable John acting mentally unstable makes him less loyal...again. At this point in the story you fuck him over so bad, he lost everything, and he is about to lose you as well for what he thinks is a ''momentary issue''... don't you think it's just a tiny bit too much for someone who is extremely sensitive in general ? After all he did for Bruce, despite all Bruce did to him, seeing that Bruce isn't even open to give him the benefit of the doubt is too much.
Your loyal friend, doesn't matter the ending, blows up a bridge in which you were on it, he could have gotten you hurt but did he care? Nope
It seems like you expected him to act reasonable.
At this point he snapped, and even as he snapped all he talked about is how Batman and him will collaborate. Seems awfully loyal of him to have that in mind when he is clearly going completely insane after Waller's stupid move ( and literally everything else ? ).
John is sick, he always has been, and everything Bruce, Harley, Waller, , Riddler, Bane ( in that order ) did to him just made it worse. He was surrounded by manipulative, abusive, and ruthless people...when he, himself, was kind of a violent man anyway, to expect him to be reasonable after all that is folly.
Your loyal friend:
* Promised to get you to the phone in Arkham by stabbing a guy, making a fight, getting people almost killed, and if… more you get involved into stopping the fight, you get knocked out cold, and if you don't, people die.
* Your loyal friend got himself into a funeral just to be an annoyance and disrespectful
* Your loyal friend lied about knowing Riddler location, if he had told us that from the beginning, Blake and the other agent wouldn't have died or Avesta wouldn't have ended up deaf, since we would have arrived there sooner without having to interrogate anyone
* Your loyal friend makes "group talks" in a bar just to mess with people and get a laugh out of them
* Your loyal friend laughs while Harley threatens you to blow up your brains with her gun
* Your loyal friend laughed like a psychopath after Harley almost killed a guard just to enter Wayne Enterprises
* If you lie saying you don't know Tifanny, John immedi… [view original content]
You know, I personally don't see any potential "romance" or friendship with John as something "happy". I think it will only end in tragedy. But you got good points.
Any close relationship with Joker has written danger all over it. That's what I think makes it interesting and unique for so many people. John has (like many other incarnations of the character) a very unhealthy obssession with Bruce, and it dosen't matter if it is as his nemesis or friend, it will always put any person close to Bruce in peril. And I think adding a romantic option will only make that danger even worse.
If you reject John during the game he explodes in your face, and thats only by being friends. Now, imagining him in actual romantic entanglement with Bruce is beyond mortal. Some people says it detracts the plot, I say it will only add more to it. The heart of this Season is your relationship with Joker. Of course making John "good" or not at the end, is the writers decision.
Come on... You can't possibly be serious. If you don't like John it's fine, but to deny the fact he has been one of the most loyal character… more and gave everything for Bruce is just denial at this point... I can't talk for what will happen next episode, I can only review the past.
John saved or tried to save Bruce at least once an episode ( season 1 included ). His mental illness and appeal for violence doesn't make him any less loyal...quite the contrary in fact. Despite his mental illness and desire to see stuff ''go wrong'', he lets Bruce deal with things in a more subtle manner and accept to do ''good'' for him, which he probably find boring or at least less exciting than the opposite.
I never said he was a textbook good guy, he has little to no empathy, he is drawn to criminals, he is so passionate about things it becomes unhealthy really fast and he keeps them close even as they hurt him/others, it's a reciepie for trouble. I said he … [view original content]
Comments
At that the end of the day I feel like she can Be trusted and is willing to do what's right and it doesn't hurt that she's beautiful
NO. No, no and no, please, no. XD Where is fanfiction for these kind of things. And this game is an adventure game, not a date simulator, really. In all honesty, I don’t get all those “optional romance” threads. Avesta, John, Harley, etc – they are characters, not sex dolls, they’re not obliged to long for Bruce’s dick just because Bruce/player wants to romance every person or object in the game. =D As for John, he told Bruce he's not interested, but he still want to be friends, shouldn't his opinion on this subject count for something?XD
And Bruce already has one optional romance option. It’s Selina. You can romance her, or not, but their romance arc is complicated and story driven enough. For 2 and more romance options where is bioware games and etc.
So, about John.
Joker-Batman relationship is my absolute number one favorite thing in the whole fandom, I was brought here by that relationship, and I feel extremely strong about how it handled and etc. =D So here comes the wall of text. =P
I LOVE how Telltale are handling it, they got the gist of Batman-Joker bond, imho, and where is nothing sexual about it, quite the opposite, they share very brotherly bond – just how I see it between them. They are like relatives in some way and I feel it’s like John sees an older brother/stern father figure in Bruce. Very similar to what the classic Joker sees in Batman, his creator. It’s not romantic, and ANY sexual tension will completely ruin the dynamic for me, even the possibility of it.
And I love how John uses words “father” and “brother” few times, talking about Bruce. The first I remember is in the backroom of Wayne Enterprises, when he says he likes Bruce’s “stern father” voice, and the second is if you won’t give him high five – he says, it’s an old way to express brotherhood, and how he’s hurt by Bruce refusing to play along.
He’s also very boyish yet, he’s not mature. That’s one of the reasons Harley isn’t interested in him at all, and I can’t think of a reason Bruce would – it’s kinda creepy, pedophilic even. He’s like growing up again, because of his trauma, which cost him memories and personality. He’s a grown up man, but he’s also a child. He addressed that too, during the bar scene, if you leave him hanging during pinky swear – he’s all sad and says something like: “Oh, well, I guess it’s a weird thing for two grown up men to do, on a second thought.” And Harley calls him “a growing boy”. And I think everyone in the Pact sees him as one. And Bruce too. I can see Harley use her sexuality to convince John to do what she wants, like she hugs him in the end of the third episode, but it’s just a game, it’s not like she is attracted to him.
I also love how innocent and awkward John sounds, when he’s calling Bruce “handsome” in front of the whole Pact, and Bruce looks embarrassed and a bit like “WTF?” =D And here goes “are you in love with me?” line.
Firstly, I want to say, the only thing I was completely sure about John, since his first appearance in season two, is what he really cares about Bruce. Joker loving Batman is as much a part of his character as a smile, or his laugh, or his sadistic humor, or white skin and etc. The dynamic just wouldn’t work without it. But, as I said, this love lacks sexuality. It’s more like an obsession with other human being, fanboyism, one-sided bromance.
So, basically, I know he loves Bruce, but John’s line “I think I’m in love” and Bruce’s question “Are you in love with me?” have romantic context, that’s why John look’s taken aback by the question. Because he’s romantically in love with Harley, not Bruce, and he is all like: “Wut.” =D Harley goes first now. Besides, he knew her much longer in this universe. =D He knew Bruce for, lol, how long, one day? And Harley was his doctor at first, and his boss after he left Arkham. They spent A LOT of time together. I think John’s priorities over those two people will shift in the future, but not in romantic regard. He’ll just get more obsessed with Bruce/Batman, and Harley will go second.
But I love it already, how in this universe Bruce/Batman/player have competition in the face of Harley. Because usually, I think, it would’ve taken one word from Batman to Joker change his plans in favor of their new violent encounter. But NOT IN THIS UNIVERSE. =D Here you can actually hear this: “Sorry, Bruce… But you’re just…. Bruce. And Harley is… HARLEY!” It’s funny and fresh, and gives me the motive to win him over, because Harley is a bad influence for him. =D
Also, the look he gives Bruce, if Bruce choose to ask “Are you in love with me” is a familiar look, which appears pretty often on John’s face, and this look appears when he’s confused, or not happy, or feeling annoyed, or someone is rude to him. Here is few examples of when it does appears:
Basically, John gets this expression when he’s confused, not sure what to think, taken aback and generally doesn’t like that much what he sees or hears.
He’s expecting Bruce to share his excitement, when he tells him about himself being in love, but Bruce, instead, answers him with confusing and out of place question. =D Considering John is having hard time understanding his feelings at all, it’s no wonder he’s taken aback, because he’s indeed feeling strong about Bruce, just not in this regard. But I can feel his disappointment in the air, like he was expecting Bruce to say something like “Wow! That’s extremely cool! I can relate!” but instead he got something like this. XD It's similar to how he get's upset or dissapointed if you tell him love is for the losers, or stay silent. Because he expected Bruce's support and excitment. Because that's what friends do in his worldview.
I also adore their parallels with Harley/Selina! =D I feel like they both despise each other’s choice of love interests, and both are struggling for attention and influence. I feel like John just generally dislikes Catwoman, because she was cozy with the Riddler, and a bit bossy around John, and steals Bruce’s attention, and John doesn’t trust her, because he read people well (when it doesn’t come to his friends, lol) and so he knows she’s manipulative and tricky. And Bruce doesn’t like Harley, because he sees how she treats John, he sees her attempts to manipulate and play them both, he doesn’t like her brutality, her methods and they constantly at each others throats with power play. And he’s also trying to win John’s respect over her, to the point where she actually says “Hands off, that’s my toy!”
It’s just so funny, how they both forced to tolerate each other’s “girlfriends”, lol, and how John is trying to learn from Bruce-Selina dynamic how to handle his own private life. I’m can literally hear the sound of Harley flying through the window, if you throw Selina instead of kissing her, lol!XD
Those parallels are really strong, and I consider this whole thing with Bruce-Selina, John-Harley very important for Bruce and John dynamics. It doesn’t matter, if player choose to romance Selina or not, because either way Selina have feelings for Bruce. No matter what you do. And I have an impression, the same come for Bruce – even if he denies to John his attraction to Selina, the dreamy look and a slight smile he gives to his coffee cup, lol, it’s all where. And when John tells him “When you’re blind, Catwoman clearly sees something in you!”. And I’m not Selina/Bruce ship fan at all, lol, I can’t say Selina makes my top fav characters even. But it’s just where – they’re attracted to each other. Bruce just can deny it, or accept it. Kinda annoyed me in the first season.
But it’s just… Batman and Joker sitting at the table, drinking coffee, discussing how life is a bitch and so are their girlfriends, lol, thank you, Telltale! =D
This whole John-Harley, Bruce-Selina dynamics opens so many aspects.
I love it how John asks Bruce to help him with Harley, how he comes to Bruce, when Harley is in danger, because Bruce is the first person John will think of, when trouble appears. I LOVE how he gets jealous, if Bruce responds to Harley advances! That’s adds so much competition between them, and that’s extremely important, imho. Also, this moment, when John tells Bruce he wants to talk with him alone about Selina, who he doesn’t trust, and almost immediately Bruce asks John carefully why does he love Harley, and looks very disturbed by the answer.
Give John a romance option, and it all will disappear. Every single line will get the second meaning, all their interactions will have a hidden subtext. Everything will lose it’s innocence. Like with Selina – you don’t have to romance her, but you know, Bruce and her are attracted, you see the hints. They’re not “just friends”, they have that hidden or obvious romance going on.
But unlike Selina and Bruce, John and Bruce lack those hints right now. They have bromance already, one-sided or not is up to the player. But it’s not sexual, and an option of it becoming sexual will make it sexual as a whole. It won’t be an “optional”, lol. So it will be forced on me, for example, and I will lose all those things I consider dear and important. =D
So I really hope it won’t become a real option, because if you want you can always ship them in your head. The path is open. But in the game, if it’s done it’s done, where is no coming back. Even more, it will impact the whole fandom, you will not hear the end of “Telltale did officially romantically shipped Joker and Batman!” And I’m really tired of fanficiton shipping them in this way, so, please, no. =D And I think Telltale do understand perfectly all those points, that’s why they push their bromance as far, as they can, so people who ship them romantically could get as much, as possible, but not to the point of no return. They’re not crossing the line.
By the way, the fine example is "Life is strange". Where is an option to romance your best friend, or not. But if you choose not to, you'll feel it anyway, because developers put it here. Those two people are romantically attracted to each other, it's just either stays hidden or open. But TT Batman right now? I don't feel the same thing between John and Bruce, not at all, and I want it to stay this way.
Besides that, I really think romance would be a bad choice from the narrative point of view. Like, what does it add to the story? Nothing. Kinda cheapens it, contrary, in my opinion.
Their possible bond will remain be much stronger, if it stays as it is now. Add romance and you’ll ruin it.
Isn’t it enough how we get so much time with John already? We even have an option to teach him throw batarangs, for god’s sake! XD Bruce is already important to him. They have stable, friendly relationship. Let’s not push it further. XD Because usually Joker is trying to stab Batman with a knife, while ripping his face off and shooting Barbara Gordon at the same time, and during all this Batman is busy making a bloody human meat sandwich out of him, so I think their current relationship is a big enough change. No need to get greedy, because if this will come to life, other ppl, like me, will be left unhappy. =D
Because, I repeat, IT WON”T be optional. It’ll give the second meaning to everything! =D
And nothing could be worse for me.
Lol felt like I read a short novel
Felt like I wrote a short novel =P
Or maybe Telltale is reusing facial expressions.lulz
Nah. I have nothing against gay/bisexual characters in video games, but having Bruce and Joker wind up together just seems forced to me.
I also noticed they're reusing faces often. Bruce face is literally the same face in third episode, as in the first! =D
Omg... I just got that... and it's hilarious. lol.
I disagree with you entirely, but it was definitely a fun and interesting opinion to read.
No offense, but Joker is possibly the worst person you could pair with Batman, he's probably the most violent and cold blooded Batman villain.
He is also the one Batman is the most strongly connected to, the yin to his yang, the nihilist to his Kantianism, the Patroclus to his Achilles, and if there's a tiny bit of Joker in Batman, there's a tiny bit of Batman in Joker too...
Our vigilante is a freak.
But on a more serious note... OP seems to be talking about Telltale's Joker, who doesn't quite fit the whole ''cold blooded'' description... We don't even have enough to call him the ''most violent''... We can see it coming that's for sure, but we are not quite there yet.
I find the argument about "breaking canon" and "destroying characters" to be kinda ridiculous when we're talking about changing a character's sexuality. But especially so in the context of this series in particular, since breaking off from established batman lore is one of telltale's major goals here. I mean y'all remember they made Thomas Wayne the philanthropist into a twisted monster and made Vicki Vale, the frankly bland ass Lois Lane wannabe, into a competent and highly disturbed villain? Did that ruin those characters? No, it didn't. It made things more interesting in the ways those changes shaped the story, and caused it to diverge from established batman canon. In fact I'd argue that these changes are what make me love this series so much, because there comes a point where the wheel needs to be re-invented, or at least innovated upon.
It feels like we've been getting the same batman stories for years and years now, with very little deviation in the way the characters are portrayed, at least as far as major releases (like movies, tv and games) are concerned. Telltale's series is honestly the first time in a long time that batman has felt fresh and exciting to me.
Instead of trying to just emulate what has come before, they are, in many cases, remaking the lore to service the stories they want to tell. And if having John as an optional romance option for Bruce is something they want to do, I see no reason as to why they couldn't do that. This series has deviated from the lore so much already, that saying a Bat/Joker relationship would somehow break canon is honestly a bit silly..
Anyway, didn't mean to turn this into an essay but whoops ¯_(ツ)_/¯. TL;DR I don't see how changing a character's sexuality (like making John and/or Bruce bisexual) is any different from changing a character's personality or history, which Telltale has already done multiple times already. So I personally would welcome a romance option with John, if for no other reason because it would be interesting and something completely new.
Sounds disgusting, they are great bro's
I don't think making Bruce or John bisexual helps the story at all. There's absolutely no point to it and, being this far into the story with the Sanctus reveal and all, seems to be a total distraction from the actual plot. I mean, I've seen lots of posts explaining that it would add to the devastation, which I don't see how that's possible.
First off, we all know he's becoming the Joker that's no surprise so how does romancing him make it harder? Second, some people have Bruce and John as good friends so the drama is already there.
Third, John suddenly becoming an option will do one of two things to the dialogue: It will either make it seem like everyone romanced him even if they hadn't or it'll add some random kiss scene that was utterly pointless as everything turns out the same and didn't add anymore than the actual friendship. In which case why would anyone need it?
We've got one optional romance already, with Harley as a possible second, does anyone really need a third? I certainly don't and I'm honestly hoping that the whole Harley thing never happens either. Her, John and even Selina have had enough screen time and I'd like for telltale to give whatever scraps they can to Bane and Freeze.
Not to mention it seriously would come out of nowhere. It's been made clear John is in love with Harley. I mean, I don't understand how people are having such a hard time grasping that. And while it's possible he is bisexual in this version and maybe has a crush on Bruce, his romantic feels are targeted at Harley.
Also the John and Bruce thing is already an altered canon without them being in a romance. The Joker and Bruce never actually started out as friends in the comics or movies, as far as I know. And technically making John bisexual or gay isn't an alteration as the Joker used to be if you go by a previous post by Mellorine, so that much is nothing new and has already been done.
Oh come on what next Bruce x Alfred
The unsinkable ship.
It would feel like taking advantage of a mentally challenged person.
Good point too.
I’m perplexed as to why every female at DC is bi but they don’t even make any of the prominent males queer in even an Elseworld- especially Batman. And don’t tell me not-Hal Jordan counts. Second to Wonder Woman, NO other character has been as steeped in innuendo and, like Wonder Woman, the notion the character might be gay and still became wildly popular in the 50s is a feat like no other. I think someone, somewhere, somehow should pay tribute to that rather than copping it up to cheap camp or perv fan fiction (as if Harley & Ivy wasn’t, at least initially).
That being said, NOT with John but perhaps someone else. I’d love it if Bruce could be bi- bi because I see Catwoman as his ultimate love no matter what. Also, aren’t these games about choice!?
Come on man don't expose them like that, they've been keeping it on the low!
Like I would want a refund
I wouldn't mind it. And I think it will add dept to their dangeours relationship. As some people said in here, it will be the creepiest and weirdest thing. To bad people proyect too much on the "sexuality" part. I don't think that is necessary. Any sort of "emotional romance" between them would be dark, twisted and dangerous.
I find Batman and Joker "paring" kind of similar to the romantic relationship between Hannibal Lecter and Will Graham. No necessarily sexual. Is more like an emotionally deep and dark connection founded in their mutual "madness". If Telltale dares going that way I just hope is not very "dark". I like the little subtleties and the funny parts.
That "hug" in the last episode had lots of hidden emotions on it. From the creepy music and the setting, the camera angle, the corpses around them and the huge implications of trusting John "one more time". Then, the way John pulls at Bruce's hand and hugs him took me completly by surprise. I applaud you Telltale. I been reading Batman comics for 20 years, and is the first time I felt that all that twisted "dark romance" subtext in the comics, movies, videogames and media was condensed in just one hug.
I hope you guys can add more things like that, don't listen to the negativity, you guys doing great with both characters. Can't wait to see were you can push the story in new ways.
If not. Well, I still love your games
Im just gonna leave this here for the Bruce x John shippers who want to see the different hug options:
What the ... ?
Y'all pray all ya want for ya pretty kisses, you're never going to get anything close to this beauty:
I'd be against it. I hate whenever friendships cannot just be that - friendships. Doesn't matter if it's the same sex or opposite. Like Agent Avesta and I are friends in my playthrough, but I do not want any romance between us since my Batman/Bruce is with Catwoman/Selina. I mean, having more choices and branches are always a plus, but what about accidentally getting in a romance with a character? For example: In TWD: ANF Javier has a line that causes Jesus to feel as though Javier is flirting with him; I chose that line which was something like, "You're so rad."
I totally agree, I had the same issue with Mass Effect games, my Shepard had to be extremely cautious when talking to other characters in order to avoid accidental flirting, I don't need that here.
Source : Here
Interesting.
This little guy gave more to Bruce than many other people that were there before he was. He saved him countless times, he lied to the love of his life for him, he put his own life on the line for him, he continued to defend him even after he learned Bruce was using him, he accepted helping Bruce put Harley to justice as long as she was left unharmed both in the third and fourth episode, and that... despite the fact it meant losing everything, he then almost got shot after helping and yet still held onto the hope Bruce will stand by him and ''clean Gotham with him''.
When did anyone else ever ?
Hey Bruce may not be ''sure if Batman should help John'' anymore, Bruce may not feel the same way John does, but I am still not abandoning such a loyal friend to his own mind as long as the options come up.
...
Same here.
Avesta really pretty girls....catwoman/Avesta...haard.......
Your loyal friend:
What an odd loyal friend you have
I don't think he lied about self-defense.
I'm not saying he's an awesome friend or a good man. Most of your points are valid, but you don't mention him attacking Bane or Freeze for us or betraying Harley for us, or tolerating us outright using him. People don't like to be used in general, and he know Bruce to some extend using him, he's not an idiot.
Good friend Bruce led him and the rest of the Pact into a trap in the second episode, after all, and we knew with Waller in command he and anyone in their gang could be killed.
My point is - he did a lot of shit, but good things too, it's not like he doesn't care and just using us.
I was extremly angry at him in lot of situations, like with Catwoman fight or Willey, or trying to blame Selina, but I can ignore his efforts.
Besides, he was spineless before episode 4. So I didn't expect him to help me in the fight or stood up to Harley.
I accidently triggered romance with Alenko in ME1, lol, I didn't even noticed HOW, and close to finale he just came to me flirting with spend-night-together proposal, I was horrified and send him away, but he still wrote me a lot of letters in the second game and when tried to romance me in ME3. That was funny and frustrating at the same time.
I do not know if it was written for fun or seriously but I will answer as if it was a serious post. No offence, but I strongly disagree.
John acts like psychotic maniac, that’s what he does. He decided to help Bruce in Arkham not because Bruce was his friend, because Bruce just met him 2 minutes before, but because he just decided he would do that out of the blue (or for fun, or for his secret agenda), causing a fight where people could have died, having the time of his life watching it. No matter how much Bruce would try to distantiate from John, John is still glued to him, pressing on this idea of friendship which isn’t a real friendship because there was no real foundation for it. John has issues with a split personality, how can we know if his darker side is not ‘leading’ his more genuine side all the time, manipulating Bruce? And even if he was genuine, his actions were all the time kind of creepy. Look at the things which he said to Tiffany at Lucius funeral. Really? This is the kind of guy who anyone would wish to be a friend with? And it is not just the lack of empathy, but he committed real crimes, killed people without any sign of remorse.
@Kaelthas did awesome job summing all the ‘off’ behaviours of John In the post above.
I am probably in minority, but in my playtrough I tried to have as little to do with John as it was possible. And not because I do not like the character – I think he is awesomely written, but ‘my’ Bruce got involved into the Pact only because the mission required it. I tried to push John away without ‘hurting his feelings’ and without blowing up the cover. And what did I get in return? John was acting like a stalker/maniac all the time. All conversations with him felt off, all those pictures with Bruce’s face attached to them – John all the time acts like an emotionally unstable psychotic person.
It does not mean that I wished him any harm, no. At the beginning there were even moments, when I felt somewhat bad for him. I tried to help him guiding him to the right path during conversations, but this guy is seriously ill.
I do think that the best thing which Bruce may do for John is to make him to get back to Arkham to get help there.
And it is not like other people do not care about Bruce. Bruce is alone, because of his own issues caused by the trauma from his childhood. Because of it, he is pushing people away. He is fully focused on his mission, allowing only the selected few people get closer to him (Alfred, Lucius and with time Selina, Harvey, Tiffany, Gordon). I think it is one of major points of this season. Bruce has to learn to lean on people, learn to let others help him. Alfred mentioned it by saying that he will not always be there for Bruce, Lucius said to Bruce that burden is lighter when carried by many. That’s why it is awesome when Bruce has a chance to share his secret with Tiffany and let her be involved into the mission. That is why it felt right, when Bruce had this friendly conversation with Avesta in the car, letting her know himself a little bit better. And that is also why I really liked the option for Bruce to say to Harley that he is not alone, when he was standing to fight against the Pact with Selina by his side. Those are small things but these are the foundations for real relationships.
He lied to you buddy
I didn't mention that because the guy I quoted already said that, but my point wasn't listing all his actions, I was showing how he wasn't a loyal friend to Bruce, yeah, one time or two he was goody goody, that doesn't erase bad actions, hell, if we have to make a list of good and bad, bad already won.
Sorry, but I listened to the whole monologue in game and for me that's and the way he reacts if we don't believe him is the main reason why I think he was telling the truth =/
We can only speculate, because we don't know for sure, but that's my opinion. He was thinking about lying. Maybe he lied about details, but I don't think he lied about life or death situation.
I agree that the option to romance John should be that, completely optional. They could achive this with the dialogue. Like some people posted, the subtext is already in the game. For those who are interested, they could unlock it by actively choosing such dialogue options throughout the whole game.
Like, for example, defending John from Willy with violence, asking John if he is "in love with me" option. Staring at John on the cafe when he talks about the Arkham lights, telling him we have each other in the assault in the lab, etc. I don't think you could trigger romance by mistake with those options. You would need to atively look for it.
It shouldn't be forced on people who dosen't want it, and if we want to keeps friends with John without romance him, we should be able to do that.
Come on... You can't possibly be serious. If you don't like John it's fine, but to deny the fact he has been one of the most loyal character and gave everything for Bruce is just denial at this point... I can't talk for what will happen next episode, I can only review the past.
John saved or tried to save Bruce at least once an episode ( season 1 included ). His mental illness and appeal for violence doesn't make him any less loyal...quite the contrary in fact. Despite his mental illness and desire to see stuff ''go wrong'', he lets Bruce deal with things in a more subtle manner and accept to do ''good'' for him, which he probably find boring or at least less exciting than the opposite.
I never said he was a textbook good guy, he has little to no empathy, he is drawn to criminals, he is so passionate about things it becomes unhealthy really fast and he keeps them close even as they hurt him/others, it's a reciepie for trouble. I said he was a loyal friend to Bruce and he would tolerate stuff no one else would because of that.
but since I love talking about them well...
Would you say it proves he isn't loyal or that he just doesn't hesitate to use violence to get what he/you want(s) ? Everyone knows John enjoys violence, I don't really see the link with loyalty or friendship there. He can be a loyal friend and yet bloodthirsty... can't he ?
You would be right if you didn't ignore the whole plot there ( so spoiler alert you are not ). If I remember well he did get there to ask for a favor, and have you help him get rid of the riddler ( he probably already knew you were Batman so by helping you he also helped himself ).
His antisocial behavior is his consistant behavior. He can switch from one extreme to the other rather quickly, and obviously the context wouldn't fit with someone like him. He went where he knew he could find you, to expect him to ''behave'' once he path the churches door is too much.
I don't even know why I took the time responding to that one... just what the hell.
I could switch it in my favor and ignore everything that doesn't prove my point : ''My loyal friend got himself into a funeral just so he could catch up with me '' '' My loyal friend got himself into a funeral just so he could help me arrest Riddler ''
and honestly while I would be purposely ignoring what he himself admitted he would get from it, it would be way closer to the truth.
You are right about the lying part, but remember his goal was to set up Riddler, and get into Bruce/batman's good side... He doesn't care about those agents, if anything it probably is funnier for him to see them die and learn a little more about Batman's morals and how he operates.
Once again...I said he was loyal. He helped you get what you want, it doesn't mean he needs to be a superhero by episode 1 .
What's your point ? It doesn't make him any less of a loyal friend to Bruce. You might be trying to explain to me how John is a ''bad person'' with all these arguments, which is not something I said or denied in my original comment.
And defends you several times in the same breath so she trusts you, and doesn't, in fact, blow your brains out. Seems like John to me, he enjoys violence, but not when the life of people he genuinely care about is threatened... What's your point ?
To save her life...what the fuck... how is that disloyal of him to save your friend ( even though I am sure he doesn't care at all if she lives or dies, he does it for Bruce and Bruce alone ).
I doubt he can take Catwoman, might as well take pictures rather than have Bruce worry about him, and he tried to get in her way once he saw Bruce couldn't handle her. He also got you the laptop.
Immature John is acting immature... color me not surprised. But even then... no matter how douchey you are, no matter if he probably knows you are a mole by now and no matter how much he pretends ''Harley is Harley'', he does not. Maybe he cares about you ?
Please... He knows Bruce is Batman, so like you said... he didn't betray him. Bruce feelings aren't enough to sway facts.
And I am glad he did ? If Harley suspected them both of treason they would be dead. You can't blame him for being pragmatic.
I said ''hit me again'' and I meant it.
He never wanted you to take the blame... I think it was the whole point of him ''begging'' Harley to interrogate you and actively trying to make the whole thing believable. He doesn't care about Catwoman, maybe I wasn't specific enough when I said ''loyal friend'', I definitly meant Bruce and no one else.
He stole the laptop for you, why would he take the blame . The nerve Bruce has to ask him to do so after he risked his neck for him, it's hilarious.
Even when you decide to take the blame he goes and stands up for you against Harley.
He said it was just a joke ? Why so serious ?
No honestly, the guy was drunk and broken, but even then he merely took it in his hands and didn't point at anyone with it.
Can't say I saw that part so I'll just remain silent.
I don't see how he lied. He seems to think he did it in self defense if you actually listen to his monologue, but he doesn't remember enough to be perfectly sure and question himself. John seems to have a general bad opinion of cops, he keeps saying they shoot first and ask question later, I believe it's truly what he thinks ( which Walller pretty much confirmed for him at the end, and the fact he already that image of the agency is one of the many reasons he acted recklessly at the end ). If he didn't act in self defense, it's lickely he genuinely believes he has... I think he says the truth and it's all a blur.
And you can punch back ? I don't see how mentally unstable John acting mentally unstable makes him less loyal...again. At this point in the story you fuck him over so bad, he lost everything, and he is about to lose you as well for what he thinks is a ''momentary issue''... don't you think it's just a tiny bit too much for someone who is extremely sensitive in general ? After all he did for Bruce, despite all Bruce did to him, seeing that Bruce isn't even open to give him the benefit of the doubt is too much.
It seems like you expected him to act reasonable.
At this point he snapped, and even as he snapped all he talked about is how Batman and him will collaborate. Seems awfully loyal of him to have that in mind when he is clearly going completely insane after Waller's stupid move ( and literally everything else ? ).
John is sick, he always has been, and everything Bruce, Harley, Waller, , Riddler, Bane ( in that order ) did to him just made it worse. He was surrounded by manipulative, abusive, and ruthless people...when he, himself, was kind of a violent man anyway, to expect him to be reasonable after all that is folly.
You know, I personally don't see any potential "romance" or friendship with John as something "happy". I think it will only end in tragedy. But you got good points.
Any close relationship with Joker has written danger all over it. That's what I think makes it interesting and unique for so many people. John has (like many other incarnations of the character) a very unhealthy obssession with Bruce, and it dosen't matter if it is as his nemesis or friend, it will always put any person close to Bruce in peril. And I think adding a romantic option will only make that danger even worse.
If you reject John during the game he explodes in your face, and thats only by being friends. Now, imagining him in actual romantic entanglement with Bruce is beyond mortal. Some people says it detracts the plot, I say it will only add more to it. The heart of this Season is your relationship with Joker. Of course making John "good" or not at the end, is the writers decision.