My theory is that John was in control in Arkham. He knew the rules and knew the order of things so he thrived. But now that's he out in the world he sees how chaotic it is and how different it is from the confines of the asylum. He says he likes Harley because she "thrives on the chaos" of the world. Add that to her psychologically manipulating him and her being a familiar face from Arkham and it's clear why he's in love with her in his own way.
I'd say he met Harleen before Bruce because remember Harley was a criminal long enough to be acquaintaned with Selina. She just used her day job as a psychiatrist to find out information while performing her criminal activities such as talking to Cobblepot about Bruce's lab. I have a feeling she had a hand with his release because she obviously needed someone completely loyal to her as a useful tool if the rest of the Pact disagreed with her.
Well, I belive that Harley has somehow made that split personality on John, and maybe John knows that at some level. Because the way he "lov… morees" Harley in this universe is a reversal from their typical roles of abuse and manipulation. In the normal universe he is the one who manipulates Harley into loving him, in this one is the other way around. But he cares about Bruce more. His actions speak louder than his words. I think that Harley has coerced John into loving her, just as much as he has done in the main universe. He breaks her emotionally and mentally and drives her insane, Harley may have done the same here. To Harley he is just a "toy" she says so herself and runs away without caring much for John's emotions.
John has a problem with rejection, he snaps with just any small negativity he gets from the person he cares about, he gets paranoid and agressive. He may have "snaped" and killed the guards, when he saw that Harley was gone. An… [view original content]
My theory is that John was in control in Arkham. He knew the rules and knew the order of things so he thrived. But now that's he out in the … moreworld he sees how chaotic it is and how different it is from the confines of the asylum. He says he likes Harley because she "thrives on the chaos" of the world. Add that to her psychologically manipulating him and her being a familiar face from Arkham and it's clear why he's in love with her in his own way.
I'd say he met Harleen before Bruce because remember Harley was a criminal long enough to be acquaintaned with Selina. She just used her day job as a psychiatrist to find out information while performing her criminal activities such as talking to Cobblepot about Bruce's lab. I have a feeling she had a hand with his release because she obviously needed someone completely loyal to her as a useful tool if the rest of the Pact disagreed with her.
I don't presume to know how knowable in comics people are in the formus. But it seems many haven't really read a Batman comic or not enough. So, what I find funny is that any mention of a Joker and Batman "romance" is inmidiatly dismissed because of people own views on same gender romance; but that is my opinion.
"BatJoke" shippers didn't came out of nowhere, and they aren't all gay themselves. The paring of both characters has actually many antecedents, begining with the way artists and writers have mostly potrayed them. Starting with Frank Miller, Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and of course Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder.
The "romance" of both characters is not even homosexual in itself, because their "attraction" is not physical at all, but more like a deeply intellectual and psycological attraction rooted in madness, which I think is what makes their dynamic so interesting to begin with. But naturally, people don't see it that way when the subject is mentioned.
People asume a romance with Joker is banging him or something. I don't think sexualizing a possible optional romance in the game is even necessary. The heart of the story in this Season is the establishment of the type of relationship you want with Joker at the end. And making the possibility of having both characters be in love with the other is interesting, and could make for great drama, but that is my humble opinion
I don't know how other people who likes the posibility would see it.
No. Pelase, don't assume what im asking. That is your view and I respect it. But that is not the way I see it, and what I would like to see has nothing to do with "friendship".
I will let the artists and designers of Telltale handle that. I completely trust them on making such a possibility meaningful and relevant to both the lore and the characters, without cheaping what they represent or disminishig what they could do, as both hero and villan.
As a straight female you don't see me throwin a fit just because telltale hasn't given me a straight female to play every chance they get. I don't need to be represented in every single game I play.
They gave us Fiona and they gave bisexuals Javier. So there you go.
They've also given gay side characters like in WD season 2.
I'm all for them making you a gaymance if that's what you need, just not for this particular game.
I mean honestly it's quite clear that Bruce doesn't think of John in a romantic or a sexual way. I think John loves Bruce but on a deeper more psychological level just like Joker loves Batman in all other mediums.
Even the word "love" probably isn't the right word to describe it. More like "fascinated by" and "obsessed with."
On that note I don't see a romance happening but that's just my two cents
I find this notion that if a character isn't a straight white male it's 'given' to a specific group of people really weird. Why anyone would even think that is beyond me. Take Javier, bisexual cuban-american, or any queer character anywhere, they're only there to represent. What the heck..
And then this simplistic concept of relationships, that there's only friendship and then there's the kind of love that is romance, that always has a sexual side. It doesn't work like that in the real world either, and we're talking about fiction here, the relationship between Batman and Joker (or Bruce and John actually in this case) that's always been more complex than people seem to even know. Guess I'm actually one of those people, I've learned a lot about the dynamic between Batman and Joker from this discussion. I'd love to read the comics but I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest.
I responded that way because someone made the assumption people were angry and were angry about the fact that its a gay romance. So I made the assumption they wanted it precisely for that reason and responded in kind. I also don't see what race has to do with my statement.
I find this notion that if a character isn't a straight white male it's 'given' to a specific group of people really weird. Why anyone would… more even think that is beyond me. Take Javier, bisexual cuban-american, or any queer character anywhere, they're only there to represent. What the heck..
And then this simplistic concept of relationships, that there's only friendship and then there's the kind of love that is romance, that always has a sexual side. It doesn't work like that in the real world either, and we're talking about fiction here, the relationship between Batman and Joker (or Bruce and John actually in this case) that's always been more complex than people seem to even know. Guess I'm actually one of those people, I've learned a lot about the dynamic between Batman and Joker from this discussion. I'd love to read the comics but I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest.
Batman: The Kiling Joke is a good way to start. The book establishes their mutual madness very well. And how they both feel traped in their fatal relationship. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller is another good example. Joker is in a catatonic state for many years by the disappearance of Batman and when he returns, Joker wakes up. Death of the Family by Scott Snyder, is another no so subtextual example of the "romance" both of them share. Joker is jealous of the Bat-Family and the way they take the attention of Batman from him and his "games". Also End Game by same autor. And I think a very obvious one... Lego Batman
I find this notion that if a character isn't a straight white male it's 'given' to a specific group of people really weird. Why anyone would… more even think that is beyond me. Take Javier, bisexual cuban-american, or any queer character anywhere, they're only there to represent. What the heck..
And then this simplistic concept of relationships, that there's only friendship and then there's the kind of love that is romance, that always has a sexual side. It doesn't work like that in the real world either, and we're talking about fiction here, the relationship between Batman and Joker (or Bruce and John actually in this case) that's always been more complex than people seem to even know. Guess I'm actually one of those people, I've learned a lot about the dynamic between Batman and Joker from this discussion. I'd love to read the comics but I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest.
It doesn't you're right, I didn't reply to you because I wasn't talking about exactly the same thing, sorry if you were confused about that. My point was having a variety of characters should be the norm, not something that people argue only existing because of some ulterior motive. As a bi woman your mention of Javier reminded me of all the things I read here on the forums back when ANF ended. Back to the topic, in this case something more than a friendship would fit the narrative, if you want it, since it's a hypothetical option.
I responded that way because someone made the assumption people were angry and were angry about the fact that its a gay romance. So I made t… morehe assumption they wanted it precisely for that reason and responded in kind. I also don't see what race has to do with my statement.
Batman: The Kiling Joke is a good way to start. The book establishes their mutual madness very well. And how they both feel traped in their … morefatal relationship. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller is another good example. Joker is in a catatonic state for many years by the disappearance of Batman and when he returns, Joker wakes up. Death of the Family by Scott Snyder, is another no so subtextual example of the "romance" both of them share. Joker is jealous of the Bat-Family and the way they take the attention of Batman from him and his "games". Also End Game by same autor. And I think a very obvious one... Lego Batman
Thanks for the clarification.
I didn't read the forums for ANF but I've heard from these forums that people were pretty brutal about the entire game. It wasn't their best in my opinion but I totally liked Javier and his choice in man was superb. His lady choice... that one was really, really weird. Maybe I'm alone on that.
It doesn't you're right, I didn't reply to you because I wasn't talking about exactly the same thing, sorry if you were confused about that.… more My point was having a variety of characters should be the norm, not something that people argue only existing because of some ulterior motive. As a bi woman your mention of Javier reminded me of all the things I read here on the forums back when ANF ended. Back to the topic, in this case something more than a friendship would fit the narrative, if you want it, since it's a hypothetical option.
The Killing Joke, Death In The Family, Death Of The Family, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth are some good Joker related runs.
Some great non-Joker related stories are: Hush then Under The Red Hood(read in that order), The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall(a LONG story, over 1000pgs).
The Killing Joke, Death In The Family, Death Of The Family, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth are some good Joker related runs… more.
Some great non-Joker related stories are: Hush then Under The Red Hood(read in that order), The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall(a LONG story, over 1000pgs).
I'm only going to warn you a little bit:
Those comics, particularly The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns, are kind of graphic in nature, and may not be to your taste. I'm not assuming anything though. Just saying, because both comics had their controversies. Especially The Killing Joke, because of the theme of rape.
The Killing Joke, Death In The Family, Death Of The Family, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth are some good Joker related runs… more.
Some great non-Joker related stories are: Hush then Under The Red Hood(read in that order), The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall(a LONG story, over 1000pgs).
What I mean by "non-Joker related" is that he isn't the focus. I think he appears in all of the ones I mentioned(I don't specifically remember him in Knightfall, but in 1000 pages, I'm sure he's in there somewhere). I just want to cautiously suggest them in a thread about the Joker. I don't want people going in, expecting 1v1, then he gets red herring -ed in 10 pages.
Back to the topic: I think this ship has sailed. *ba-dum-tss*
What I mean by "non-Joker related" is that he isn't the focus. I think he appears in all of the ones I mentioned(I don't specifically remem… moreber him in Knightfall, but in 1000 pages, I'm sure he's in there somewhere). I just want to cautiously suggest them in a thread about the Joker. I don't want people going in, expecting 1v1, then he gets red herring -ed in 10 pages.
Back to the topic: I think this ship has sailed. *ba-dum-tss*
What exactly is the point of throwing the word "romance" in there? It's not about romance and it never was. It's about the "There could be no good without evil" proverb, Batman and Joker are the Yin & Yang of the story. In their relationship there is no indication of romance, so there is no point in calling it one.
I don't presume to know how knowable in comics people are in the formus. But it seems many haven't really read a Batman comic or not enough.… more So, what I find funny is that any mention of a Joker and Batman "romance" is inmidiatly dismissed because of people own views on same gender romance; but that is my opinion.
"BatJoke" shippers didn't came out of nowhere, and they aren't all gay themselves. The paring of both characters has actually many antecedents, begining with the way artists and writers have mostly potrayed them. Starting with Frank Miller, Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and of course Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder.
The "romance" of both characters is not even homosexual in itself, because their "attraction" is not physical at all, but more like a deeply intellectual and psycological attraction rooted in madness, which I think is what makes their dynamic so interesting to begin with. But naturally, people don't see it that way when … [view original content]
Hi there. First, let me apology for my english. I'm not a native speaker.
So about this romance... I don't understand what would make it weird? I mean, I don't deny at all the Batcat relationship but... isn't it weird too but acceptable anyway? As for Harley Quinzel, you can obviously hit on her in this game even tho she is a psychopathic murderer. So why wouldn't it be okay to romance John? "Oh but, he is evil and odd and dangerous !! it doesn't suits Batmans code !" Mhm yeah I see your point BUT you could say the same to Harley and Cat and SOMEHOW you can romance them. At least you can romance Cat and you can hit on Harley even tho I'm not sure you can romance Harley.
And if it's optional, why would you care anyway? You've already read better explanations about the Batjokes dynamics and I don't need to write more because if you didn't understand before you will never anyway.
I'm just trying to understand. is weird because... he's a dude? Would it be weird if John was a cute but odd and sexy girl criminal?
In this game they could totally love each other. Does that mean they had to marry in the end? No. Does that mean they have to hard-core bang in front of criminals and the police? neither. And yes, people can be in a romantic relationship without having sex. Plus, it's a game. It can happen without being shown.
Their ambiguous relationship isn't as new as you may think. And for me it would be weird too if that happened in comics. But in this game? in which John is way more calm and protective? why not? Batman could do an exception to his code as he did with Cat and as he may do with Harley if we're given the choice?
And if you don't want it to be that way well, don't romance him?
I tried not to romance Cat but even though I punched her and insulted her I still get to flirt with her and everyone around me is making me guilty for that (Alfred for example).
So why having an optional romance that is ACTUALLY optional could bother you anyway?
I'm sorry if I sound rude, it wasn't meant to. As I said I'm not a native and my sentences might sound different to me. But don't worry, I'm not sure either it's nicely said or not, but I'm certain of the meaning of my speach.
Is called subtext and symbolism. Look at their postitions, I don't think it needs description. The artist didn't draw them like that by accident. And there are many, many more examples . Lego Batman is another obvious one.
What exactly is the point of throwing the word "romance" in there? It's not about romance and it never was. It's about the "There could be n… moreo good without evil" proverb, Batman and Joker are the Yin & Yang of the story. In their relationship there is no indication of romance, so there is no point in calling it one.
I believe some people are concerned about the way the narrative may unfold if such option becomes available. Is like what you said about Catwoman and Bruce. Many feel that they romanced her, even if they choose the "friends" option with her. And I can't blame them, that's is indeed up to the game designers to make sure that the way we "choose" or not an available option has the meaning we meant to have and not something that feels "forced".
Hi there. First, let me apology for my english. I'm not a native speaker.
So about this romance... I don't understand what would make it … moreweird? I mean, I don't deny at all the Batcat relationship but... isn't it weird too but acceptable anyway? As for Harley Quinzel, you can obviously hit on her in this game even tho she is a psychopathic murderer. So why wouldn't it be okay to romance John? "Oh but, he is evil and odd and dangerous !! it doesn't suits Batmans code !" Mhm yeah I see your point BUT you could say the same to Harley and Cat and SOMEHOW you can romance them. At least you can romance Cat and you can hit on Harley even tho I'm not sure you can romance Harley.
And if it's optional, why would you care anyway? You've already read better explanations about the Batjokes dynamics and I don't need to write more because if you didn't understand before you will never anyway.
I'm just trying to understand. is weird because... he's a … [view original content]
I might be wrong here, but how exactly killing each other is romantic and proof Bruce wants to "romance" Joker? So far all the "proof" of their romance in other media is the Joker being obsessed with Batman, while Batman is always "Meh, I send you to Arkham and I go fight other villains, Posion Ivy is way hotter". I don't ever see Bruce reciprocating all that "love" you claim they have for each other.
And lego batman doesn't count, the whole movie is a joke, hell, Robin thinks Bruce and Batman are his two daddies.
Is called subtext and symbolism. Look at their postitions, I don't think it needs description. The artist didn't draw them like that by accident. And there are many, many more examples . Lego Batman is another obvious one.
Oh believe me when I say Joker's feelings are reciprocated... its just usually require Joker to die/almost die for Batman to stop denying it.
@Jmooox Joker and Batman relationship has romance elements in it and I already sent exemples in the second page of this exact same thread... and I am not running low quite the contrary in fact. . I leave out the writers comments themselves where they compare Batjokes relationship to a romantic relationship and the already very straightfoward, ways the other characters point out not only Joker's feelings but Batman's ones as well. Their relationship also has elements of rivalry, friendship, enemies, whorshipper/whorshipped... but a romance as well. Since Batman pretty much acknowledged Joker was in love with him and so did Catwoman and well... Joker himself. There's also the desire shared both by Batman and Joker in the end of Europa to ''either kiss or strangle'' the other... It wasn't only Joker's desire, but Batman's too.
I personnaly think pretending the romantic aspect of their relationship is not there when it couldn't be more explicit is oversimplifying their relationship which is not what I like to do. Maybe you should try to understand our perspective as well by making some more research ? And maybe you could develop your point @jmooox because I am starting to wonder if we even have the same idea of what a romance stand for.
I think it would be nice to have an option to romance John. I think it should appear in episode 5 for people who chose "are you in love with me?" in episode 2. And yeah some people thought it was a joke question so they should have an option to back out (like the "pull away" from the hug one). I could write a long post pointing out all the homoerotic history between these two characters but why bother; people who deny it will continue to deny it no matter how many panels we show. And that's fine, you can interpret these characters however you want. There's been so many writers doing their own versions that everyone has a different image of their "ideal" Joker and Batman in mind. But having an option to romance John isn't a bad thing. If you don't wanna do it, then don't. No one is forcing you, you'd never have to even witness it (unless you're super curious and will watch that on YT or something) if the creators carefully craft that path. You can romance Selina and make Joker end up with Harley in your playthrough. Let people do what they want in their own playthrough; and if people want to romance John, then let them romance John.
I think it would be nice to have an option to romance John. I think it should appear in episode 5 for people who chose "are you in love with… more me?" in episode 2. And yeah some people thought it was a joke question so they should have an option to back out (like the "pull away" from the hug one). I could write a long post pointing out all the homoerotic history between these two characters but why bother; people who deny it will continue to deny it no matter how many panels we show. And that's fine, you can interpret these characters however you want. There's been so many writers doing their own versions that everyone has a different image of their "ideal" Joker and Batman in mind. But having an option to romance John isn't a bad thing. If you don't wanna do it, then don't. No one is forcing you, you'd never have to even witness it (unless you're super curious and will watch that on YT or something) if the creators carefully craft that path. You… [view original content]
So because some people don't want it, it shouldn't exist for those who do? In a self-contained Batman story that's a fresh take on the lore that crafts its own canon. Seriously, if you don't want it it then wouldn't exist in your version of the canon; is that so hard to grasp? It's a game. I'm not romancing Selina but I won't deny that option to those who want to.
I also didn't want Jared Leto to be Joker, but here we are.
Seriously, I don't get why people are bothered by the idea that the option could be there. They wouldn't even have to pick it up, why do they bother ?
Did I complain when the Selina/Bruce romance was possible in season 1, even though it wasn't what I wanted to see ? Nope, I just picked the choices to orient them towards friendship, instead of throwing a huge tantrum.
Seriously, guys, it's 2018. It's more than time to accept that this kind of things could happen in your various media.
I'm bothered, because their relationship is IMPORTANT to me. I don't give a damn about Selina/Bruce relationship. I don't need their romance but I don't care if it's present or not in game, forced or not.
But Joker and Batman dynamics I CARE about, and I don't want it to transform into something I consider fanfiction cheap and out of place.
And I'm perfectly aware of the material of their dynamics. I read comics. Interviews. Played games, watched movies.
Where is a BIG difference between "romance" and "friendship".
Kaelthas said
In my times loving someone who was not related to you in blood was called Friendship.
that's true, you know?
Every friendship is based on love and trust, romance is also based on sexual attraction. Sexual attraction isn't optional, it's either exists (like with Bruce and Catwoman) or not. I love my friends. I would say that to them, if I feel they need to hear it, it doesn't mean I want to BANG them.
Romance option added - means it DOES exist, completly changing relationship dynamic.
I don't want it. This realtionship is important to me. That will ruin it. You want gay romance - please, you're welcome, I don't care. Have a hundred gay romances, just not with HIM.
I also want many things, like Saren in my Mass Effect crew or playing monopoly with Joker. So what?
Seriously, I don't get why people are bothered by the idea that the option could be there. They wouldn't even have to pick it up, why do the… morey bother ?
Did I complain when the Selina/Bruce romance was possible in season 1, even though it wasn't what I wanted to see ? Nope, I just picked the choices to orient them towards friendship, instead of throwing a huge tantrum.
Seriously, guys, it's 2018. It's more than time to accept that this kind of things could happen in your various media.
I'm bothered, because their relationship is IMPORTANT to me. I don't give a damn about Selina/Bruce relationship. I don't need their romance… more but I don't care if it's present or not in game, forced or not.
But Joker and Batman dynamics I CARE about, and I don't want it to transform into something I consider fanfiction cheap and out of place.
And I'm perfectly aware of the material of their dynamics. I read comics. Interviews. Played games, watched movies.
Where is a BIG difference between "romance" and "friendship".
Kaelthas said
In my times loving someone who was not related to you in blood was called Friendship.
that's true, you know?
Every friendship is based on love and trust, romance is also based on sexual attraction. Sexual attraction isn't optional, it's either exists (like with Bruce and Catwoman) or not. I love my friends. I would say that to them, if I feel they need to hear it, it doesn't mean I want to … [view original content]
You say that the relationship with John is important to you; have you considered that it's important to us too? If it wasn't we wouldn't give a shit about the whole romance option in the first place. You see it as friendship, we see it as something more. We can argue about it for days but in the end we both see it differently and that's not going to change. I don't want a romance with any other man in this game because I don't see Bruce having this kind of chemistry with any other man in this telltale universe.
In the end it doesn't matter because I'm 99,9% sure that Telltale is not going to go there.
I care about Batman and Joker dynamics and it's not about "another gay romance", although it wouldn't hurt to have one more of these, since heterosexuality is still considered the "neutral", the "normal" thing.
The option of giving Batman a romance with the Joker won't change your conception of the characters because it's just ONE conception of the characters, one in the many, many interpretations and re-interpretations of the characters there were since the beginning of their creation (how is it more game-changing than the silly comics from the 50's or 60's about Batman turning into an ape or whatever ?).
Also, it won't be the only option. I headcanoned my Bruce as asexual and gay in my first season, because I was given the option to not date Selina Kyle, or to show interest to any other female character, and I felt it was right for me. Bruce dating Selina is still valid and still a possibility, but it just didn't happen in my playthrough.
The Telltale games offer you the possibility to shape your character in many ways. For example, my Bigby was a violent man, who could be softer when it came to women and children, but who, in the end, choose to murder the biggest threat to his city because he couldn't fathom the idea of a "peaceful and temporary" solution.
Other Bigbys were less violent, more prone to tame their wild side and so on. None of those interpretations is more legit or less accurate than the other. My Bruce in relationship with the Joker wouldn't be less or more accurate than your Bruce who isn't in this relationship.
I also like the idea of a "poisonous love" and to find out how much Bruce is willing to sacrifice his ideals and his legacy to follow his heart. When will he stop ? When will he consider that it is too much ? How far is he willing to go ? It's a dark story, a griping idea and I would love to explore this. Does that make me a bad person or a "mindless fangirl" ?
Also, I don't like the fact that some of you equated the idea of John Doe being mentally ill with him being undateable because he's "mentally challenged". As a mentally ill woman, as well as autistic, I find this idea repulsive and very ableist.
I care about Batman and Joker dynamics and it's not about "another gay romance", although it wouldn't hurt to have one more of these, since … moreheterosexuality is still considered the "neutral", the "normal" thing.
The option of giving Batman a romance with the Joker won't change your conception of the characters because it's just ONE conception of the characters, one in the many, many interpretations and re-interpretations of the characters there were since the beginning of their creation (how is it more game-changing than the silly comics from the 50's or 60's about Batman turning into an ape or whatever ?).
Also, it won't be the only option. I headcanoned my Bruce as asexual and gay in my first season, because I was given the option to not date Selina Kyle, or to show interest to any other female character, and I felt it was right for me. Bruce dating Selina is still valid and still a possibility, but it just didn't happen in my playthro… [view original content]
But the thing is that Telltale forces different paths on some people that don't even want them. For example: The game forces you to be friends/in love with selina. Even if you said mean things all the time to her.
I think it would be nice to have an option to romance John. I think it should appear in episode 5 for people who chose "are you in love with… more me?" in episode 2. And yeah some people thought it was a joke question so they should have an option to back out (like the "pull away" from the hug one). I could write a long post pointing out all the homoerotic history between these two characters but why bother; people who deny it will continue to deny it no matter how many panels we show. And that's fine, you can interpret these characters however you want. There's been so many writers doing their own versions that everyone has a different image of their "ideal" Joker and Batman in mind. But having an option to romance John isn't a bad thing. If you don't wanna do it, then don't. No one is forcing you, you'd never have to even witness it (unless you're super curious and will watch that on YT or something) if the creators carefully craft that path. You… [view original content]
Comments
My theory is that John was in control in Arkham. He knew the rules and knew the order of things so he thrived. But now that's he out in the world he sees how chaotic it is and how different it is from the confines of the asylum. He says he likes Harley because she "thrives on the chaos" of the world. Add that to her psychologically manipulating him and her being a familiar face from Arkham and it's clear why he's in love with her in his own way.
I'd say he met Harleen before Bruce because remember Harley was a criminal long enough to be acquaintaned with Selina. She just used her day job as a psychiatrist to find out information while performing her criminal activities such as talking to Cobblepot about Bruce's lab. I have a feeling she had a hand with his release because she obviously needed someone completely loyal to her as a useful tool if the rest of the Pact disagreed with her.
Nice catch! I completely forgot about Selina saying she knew Harley.
I don't presume to know how knowable in comics people are in the formus. But it seems many haven't really read a Batman comic or not enough. So, what I find funny is that any mention of a Joker and Batman "romance" is inmidiatly dismissed because of people own views on same gender romance; but that is my opinion.
"BatJoke" shippers didn't came out of nowhere, and they aren't all gay themselves. The paring of both characters has actually many antecedents, begining with the way artists and writers have mostly potrayed them. Starting with Frank Miller, Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and of course Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder.
The "romance" of both characters is not even homosexual in itself, because their "attraction" is not physical at all, but more like a deeply intellectual and psycological attraction rooted in madness, which I think is what makes their dynamic so interesting to begin with. But naturally, people don't see it that way when the subject is mentioned.
People asume a romance with Joker is banging him or something. I don't think sexualizing a possible optional romance in the game is even necessary. The heart of the story in this Season is the establishment of the type of relationship you want with Joker at the end. And making the possibility of having both characters be in love with the other is interesting, and could make for great drama, but that is my humble opinion
I don't know how other people who likes the posibility would see it.
Only facts were said in your reply. Don't need this weird crap in the game.
No. Pelase, don't assume what im asking. That is your view and I respect it. But that is not the way I see it, and what I would like to see has nothing to do with "friendship".
I dont understand what's so complicated about the idea that two people can love eachother without sex being the only thing on there minds... lol.
I will let the artists and designers of Telltale handle that. I completely trust them on making such a possibility meaningful and relevant to both the lore and the characters, without cheaping what they represent or disminishig what they could do, as both hero and villan.
As a straight female you don't see me throwin a fit just because telltale hasn't given me a straight female to play every chance they get. I don't need to be represented in every single game I play.
They gave us Fiona and they gave bisexuals Javier. So there you go.
They've also given gay side characters like in WD season 2.
I'm all for them making you a gaymance if that's what you need, just not for this particular game.
I mean honestly it's quite clear that Bruce doesn't think of John in a romantic or a sexual way. I think John loves Bruce but on a deeper more psychological level just like Joker loves Batman in all other mediums.
Even the word "love" probably isn't the right word to describe it. More like "fascinated by" and "obsessed with."
On that note I don't see a romance happening but that's just my two cents
I find this notion that if a character isn't a straight white male it's 'given' to a specific group of people really weird. Why anyone would even think that is beyond me. Take Javier, bisexual cuban-american, or any queer character anywhere, they're only there to represent. What the heck..
And then this simplistic concept of relationships, that there's only friendship and then there's the kind of love that is romance, that always has a sexual side. It doesn't work like that in the real world either, and we're talking about fiction here, the relationship between Batman and Joker (or Bruce and John actually in this case) that's always been more complex than people seem to even know. Guess I'm actually one of those people, I've learned a lot about the dynamic between Batman and Joker from this discussion. I'd love to read the comics but I wouldn't even know where to start to be honest.
I responded that way because someone made the assumption people were angry and were angry about the fact that its a gay romance. So I made the assumption they wanted it precisely for that reason and responded in kind. I also don't see what race has to do with my statement.
Batman: The Kiling Joke is a good way to start. The book establishes their mutual madness very well. And how they both feel traped in their fatal relationship. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller is another good example. Joker is in a catatonic state for many years by the disappearance of Batman and when he returns, Joker wakes up. Death of the Family by Scott Snyder, is another no so subtextual example of the "romance" both of them share. Joker is jealous of the Bat-Family and the way they take the attention of Batman from him and his "games". Also End Game by same autor. And I think a very obvious one... Lego Batman
It doesn't you're right, I didn't reply to you because I wasn't talking about exactly the same thing, sorry if you were confused about that. My point was having a variety of characters should be the norm, not something that people argue only existing because of some ulterior motive. As a bi woman your mention of Javier reminded me of all the things I read here on the forums back when ANF ended. Back to the topic, in this case something more than a friendship would fit the narrative, if you want it, since it's a hypothetical option.
Thank you for these, I will check them out!
I was kinda hoping someone would give me tips where to start.
Thanks for the clarification.
I didn't read the forums for ANF but I've heard from these forums that people were pretty brutal about the entire game. It wasn't their best in my opinion but I totally liked Javier and his choice in man was superb. His lady choice... that one was really, really weird. Maybe I'm alone on that.
The Killing Joke, Death In The Family, Death Of The Family, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth are some good Joker related runs.
Some great non-Joker related stories are: Hush then Under The Red Hood(read in that order), The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall(a LONG story, over 1000pgs).
Wow thanks, appreciate it, I'm sure I'm not the only one who will benefit from this. Now I only have to find out where to get these.
I'm only going to warn you a little bit:
Those comics, particularly The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns, are kind of graphic in nature, and may not be to your taste. I'm not assuming anything though. Just saying, because both comics had their controversies. Especially The Killing Joke, because of the theme of rape.
Aaaaahh Knightfall.... those were the days
What I mean by "non-Joker related" is that he isn't the focus. I think he appears in all of the ones I mentioned(I don't specifically remember him in Knightfall, but in 1000 pages, I'm sure he's in there somewhere). I just want to cautiously suggest them in a thread about the Joker. I don't want people going in, expecting 1v1, then he gets red herring -ed in 10 pages.
Back to the topic: I think this ship has sailed. *ba-dum-tss*
I know, is just my way on saying I had good time reading good Batman comics back on the day. New ones aren't that gripping to me since Rebirth.
How would you feel about an optional YOUR MOM romance?
What exactly is the point of throwing the word "romance" in there? It's not about romance and it never was. It's about the "There could be no good without evil" proverb, Batman and Joker are the Yin & Yang of the story. In their relationship there is no indication of romance, so there is no point in calling it one.
His mom, my mom, or Bruce's mom?
Hi there. First, let me apology for my english. I'm not a native speaker.
So about this romance... I don't understand what would make it weird? I mean, I don't deny at all the Batcat relationship but... isn't it weird too but acceptable anyway? As for Harley Quinzel, you can obviously hit on her in this game even tho she is a psychopathic murderer. So why wouldn't it be okay to romance John? "Oh but, he is evil and odd and dangerous !! it doesn't suits Batmans code !" Mhm yeah I see your point BUT you could say the same to Harley and Cat and SOMEHOW you can romance them. At least you can romance Cat and you can hit on Harley even tho I'm not sure you can romance Harley.
And if it's optional, why would you care anyway? You've already read better explanations about the Batjokes dynamics and I don't need to write more because if you didn't understand before you will never anyway.
I'm just trying to understand. is weird because... he's a dude? Would it be weird if John was a cute but odd and sexy girl criminal?
In this game they could totally love each other. Does that mean they had to marry in the end? No. Does that mean they have to hard-core bang in front of criminals and the police? neither. And yes, people can be in a romantic relationship without having sex. Plus, it's a game. It can happen without being shown.
Their ambiguous relationship isn't as new as you may think. And for me it would be weird too if that happened in comics. But in this game? in which John is way more calm and protective? why not? Batman could do an exception to his code as he did with Cat and as he may do with Harley if we're given the choice?
And if you don't want it to be that way well, don't romance him?
I tried not to romance Cat but even though I punched her and insulted her I still get to flirt with her and everyone around me is making me guilty for that (Alfred for example).
So why having an optional romance that is ACTUALLY optional could bother you anyway?
I'm sorry if I sound rude, it wasn't meant to. As I said I'm not a native and my sentences might sound different to me. But don't worry, I'm not sure either it's nicely said or not, but I'm certain of the meaning of my speach.
Is called subtext and symbolism. Look at their postitions, I don't think it needs description. The artist didn't draw them like that by accident. And there are many, many more examples . Lego Batman is another obvious one.
I believe some people are concerned about the way the narrative may unfold if such option becomes available. Is like what you said about Catwoman and Bruce. Many feel that they romanced her, even if they choose the "friends" option with her. And I can't blame them, that's is indeed up to the game designers to make sure that the way we "choose" or not an available option has the meaning we meant to have and not something that feels "forced".
I might be wrong here, but how exactly killing each other is romantic and proof Bruce wants to "romance" Joker? So far all the "proof" of their romance in other media is the Joker being obsessed with Batman, while Batman is always "Meh, I send you to Arkham and I go fight other villains, Posion Ivy is way hotter". I don't ever see Bruce reciprocating all that "love" you claim they have for each other.
And lego batman doesn't count, the whole movie is a joke, hell, Robin thinks Bruce and Batman are his two daddies.
@Kaelthas
Oh believe me when I say Joker's feelings are reciprocated... its just usually require Joker to die/almost die for Batman to stop denying it.
@Jmooox Joker and Batman relationship has romance elements in it and I already sent exemples in the second page of this exact same thread... and I am not running low quite the contrary in fact. . I leave out the writers comments themselves where they compare Batjokes relationship to a romantic relationship and the already very straightfoward, ways the other characters point out not only Joker's feelings but Batman's ones as well. Their relationship also has elements of rivalry, friendship, enemies, whorshipper/whorshipped... but a romance as well. Since Batman pretty much acknowledged Joker was in love with him and so did Catwoman and well... Joker himself. There's also the desire shared both by Batman and Joker in the end of Europa to ''either kiss or strangle'' the other... It wasn't only Joker's desire, but Batman's too.
I personnaly think pretending the romantic aspect of their relationship is not there when it couldn't be more explicit is oversimplifying their relationship which is not what I like to do. Maybe you should try to understand our perspective as well by making some more research ? And maybe you could develop your point @jmooox because I am starting to wonder if we even have the same idea of what a romance stand for.
I would really hate it, and I'm glad it isn't in the game.
I think it would be nice to have an option to romance John. I think it should appear in episode 5 for people who chose "are you in love with me?" in episode 2. And yeah some people thought it was a joke question so they should have an option to back out (like the "pull away" from the hug one). I could write a long post pointing out all the homoerotic history between these two characters but why bother; people who deny it will continue to deny it no matter how many panels we show. And that's fine, you can interpret these characters however you want. There's been so many writers doing their own versions that everyone has a different image of their "ideal" Joker and Batman in mind. But having an option to romance John isn't a bad thing. If you don't wanna do it, then don't. No one is forcing you, you'd never have to even witness it (unless you're super curious and will watch that on YT or something) if the creators carefully craft that path. You can romance Selina and make Joker end up with Harley in your playthrough. Let people do what they want in their own playthrough; and if people want to romance John, then let them romance John.
And Why can't You just accept it, that some people just don't want such stuff in the game about Batman?
So because some people don't want it, it shouldn't exist for those who do? In a self-contained Batman story that's a fresh take on the lore that crafts its own canon. Seriously, if you don't want it it then wouldn't exist in your version of the canon; is that so hard to grasp? It's a game. I'm not romancing Selina but I won't deny that option to those who want to.
I also didn't want Jared Leto to be Joker, but here we are.
Seriously, I don't get why people are bothered by the idea that the option could be there. They wouldn't even have to pick it up, why do they bother ?
Did I complain when the Selina/Bruce romance was possible in season 1, even though it wasn't what I wanted to see ? Nope, I just picked the choices to orient them towards friendship, instead of throwing a huge tantrum.
Seriously, guys, it's 2018. It's more than time to accept that this kind of things could happen in your various media.
I'm bothered, because their relationship is IMPORTANT to me. I don't give a damn about Selina/Bruce relationship. I don't need their romance but I don't care if it's present or not in game, forced or not.
But Joker and Batman dynamics I CARE about, and I don't want it to transform into something I consider fanfiction cheap and out of place.
And I'm perfectly aware of the material of their dynamics. I read comics. Interviews. Played games, watched movies.
Where is a BIG difference between "romance" and "friendship".
Kaelthas said
that's true, you know?
Every friendship is based on love and trust, romance is also based on sexual attraction. Sexual attraction isn't optional, it's either exists (like with Bruce and Catwoman) or not. I love my friends. I would say that to them, if I feel they need to hear it, it doesn't mean I want to BANG them.
Romance option added - means it DOES exist, completly changing relationship dynamic.
I don't want it. This realtionship is important to me. That will ruin it. You want gay romance - please, you're welcome, I don't care. Have a hundred gay romances, just not with HIM.
I also want many things, like Saren in my Mass Effect crew or playing monopoly with Joker. So what?
THIS. 25 x 4
one hunned percent realzies.
You say that the relationship with John is important to you; have you considered that it's important to us too? If it wasn't we wouldn't give a shit about the whole romance option in the first place. You see it as friendship, we see it as something more. We can argue about it for days but in the end we both see it differently and that's not going to change. I don't want a romance with any other man in this game because I don't see Bruce having this kind of chemistry with any other man in this telltale universe.
In the end it doesn't matter because I'm 99,9% sure that Telltale is not going to go there.
I care about Batman and Joker dynamics and it's not about "another gay romance", although it wouldn't hurt to have one more of these, since heterosexuality is still considered the "neutral", the "normal" thing.
The option of giving Batman a romance with the Joker won't change your conception of the characters because it's just ONE conception of the characters, one in the many, many interpretations and re-interpretations of the characters there were since the beginning of their creation (how is it more game-changing than the silly comics from the 50's or 60's about Batman turning into an ape or whatever ?).
Also, it won't be the only option. I headcanoned my Bruce as asexual and gay in my first season, because I was given the option to not date Selina Kyle, or to show interest to any other female character, and I felt it was right for me. Bruce dating Selina is still valid and still a possibility, but it just didn't happen in my playthrough.
The Telltale games offer you the possibility to shape your character in many ways. For example, my Bigby was a violent man, who could be softer when it came to women and children, but who, in the end, choose to murder the biggest threat to his city because he couldn't fathom the idea of a "peaceful and temporary" solution.
Other Bigbys were less violent, more prone to tame their wild side and so on. None of those interpretations is more legit or less accurate than the other. My Bruce in relationship with the Joker wouldn't be less or more accurate than your Bruce who isn't in this relationship.
I also like the idea of a "poisonous love" and to find out how much Bruce is willing to sacrifice his ideals and his legacy to follow his heart. When will he stop ? When will he consider that it is too much ? How far is he willing to go ? It's a dark story, a griping idea and I would love to explore this. Does that make me a bad person or a "mindless fangirl" ?
Also, I don't like the fact that some of you equated the idea of John Doe being mentally ill with him being undateable because he's "mentally challenged". As a mentally ill woman, as well as autistic, I find this idea repulsive and very ableist.
Yeah but that's not the narrative that should/or is in the game. Sorry, you can't change the fundamentals.
But the thing is that Telltale forces different paths on some people that don't even want them. For example: The game forces you to be friends/in love with selina. Even if you said mean things all the time to her.