Is it not, though ? How far Bruce is willing to go to help John Doe on the bridge, and in the funhouse too, can be interpreted in a lot of ways and I don't think my vision is too far-fetched. Is he doing it for love ? Friendship ? Something else ? As it is now, it's up to the player to interpret it.
And offering a choice to initiate a romantic relationship with Joker in the episode 5 would not negate your interpretation, nor it will make mine the "best" or "the only canon choice". It's only a path in the sea of multiple paths offered.
It's just like in Until Dawn, where your choices can influence relationships or make one or more characters die (or not). Or in Beyond Two souls, with the multiple endings offered. One ending is not more "canon" than the other. One choice is not more "accurate" than the other. One relationship isn't more "legit" than the other. It's a possibility.
Does it hurt you so much to let this possibility exists ? In your playthrough, it wouldn't be a reality anyway, so why bother ? It makes me think of the way players were screaming and protesting because there was one gay romance possible in the Mass Effect series for Shephard. Why bother, seriously ?
First of all this isn't Until Dawn. Having a romance option will affect the entire narrative weather you want to admit it or not. Not everything is up to the player's interpreation. Sure you can interpret it however you want to but it goes against the narrative of the game and will break the plot. It's far-fetched and it belongs in the fanfiction section.
Is it not, though ? How far Bruce is willing to go to help John Doe on the bridge, and in the funhouse too, can be interpreted in a lot of w… moreays and I don't think my vision is too far-fetched. Is he doing it for love ? Friendship ? Something else ? As it is now, it's up to the player to interpret it.
And offering a choice to initiate a romantic relationship with Joker in the episode 5 would not negate your interpretation, nor it will make mine the "best" or "the only canon choice". It's only a path in the sea of multiple paths offered.
It's just like in Until Dawn, where your choices can influence relationships or make one or more characters die (or not). Or in Beyond Two souls, with the multiple endings offered. One ending is not more "canon" than the other. One choice is not more "accurate" than the other. One relationship isn't more "legit" than the other. It's a possibility.
Does it hurt you so much to let this possibility exists … [view original content]
First of all this isn't Until Dawn. Having a romance option will affect the entire narrative weather you want to admit it or not. Not everyt… morehing is up to the player's interpreation. Sure you can interpret it however you want to but it goes against the narrative of the game and will break the plot. It's far-fetched and it belongs in the fanfiction section.
Wait... could it be..... It's important to you too????? What a revelation! I never, ever, ever considered it, I thought you were writing these posts just for the lulz!
The truth is, I doubt a lot of ppl here considering it's not less important to other half of ppl who's against romance option. Otherwise there wouldn't be questions like "why people are bothered by the idea that the option could be there".
But the funny fact is, right now both groups are standing at the middle ground. What this "romance option" means, is that this middle ground is no more. And I'm not the one who's asking to ruin this middle ground.
You got the hug, you got the date, but it's never enough is it? You had to go further and ruin it for another half of ppl who enjoy Batman-Joker dynamic? Nice!
Also, I don't like the fact that some of you equated the idea of John Doe being mentally ill with him being undateable because he's "mentally challenged". As a mentally ill woman, as well as autistic, I find this idea repulsive and very ableist.
The problem here isn't John Doe being mentally ill. The problem is with Bruce using it to his advantage, like Harley. Nobody is trying to imply anything bad about people with mental problems.
You say that the relationship with John is important to you; have you considered that it's important to us too? If it wasn't we wouldn't giv… moree a shit about the whole romance option in the first place. You see it as friendship, we see it as something more. We can argue about it for days but in the end we both see it differently and that's not going to change. I don't want a romance with any other man in this game because I don't see Bruce having this kind of chemistry with any other man in this telltale universe.
In the end it doesn't matter because I'm 99,9% sure that Telltale is not going to go there.
No need for the nasty attitude. I just said it's equally important to us because your original post sounded very possessive over the character of Joker and Joker doesn't belong to just one group of people to enjoy. As I said I'm pretty sure this potential romance isn't even a thing that will happen in the first place, what we're talking about is hypothetical. So no, we're not "ruining" anything. We're not the creators of the game and we have no control over the writing in it. We're merely fans that have a different look on the character dynamic. I'm not demanding there to be an option, but I'm saying that I wouldn't be against it if there were.
Wait... could it be..... It's important to you too????? What a revelation! I never, ever, ever considered it, I thought you were writing the… morese posts just for the lulz!
The truth is, I doubt a lot of ppl here considering it's not less important to other half of ppl who's against romance option. Otherwise there wouldn't be questions like "why people are bothered by the idea that the option could be there".
But the funny fact is, right now both groups are standing at the middle ground. What this "romance option" means, is that this middle ground is no more. And I'm not the one who's asking to ruin this middle ground.
You got the hug, you got the date, but it's never enough is it? You had to go further and ruin it for another half of ppl who enjoy Batman-Joker dynamic? Nice!
Also, I don't like the fact that some of you equated the idea of John Doe being mentally ill with him being undateable because he's "mentally challenged". As a men… [view original content]
This batitude called "sarcasm", wrote to answer the obvious question you asked.)
Read the posts around here - people around here being possessive, and as you said youself, Joker isn't anyone's property, it's a character.
The original question was "why bothering" - I explained.
If you admit both options are equally important, when there shouldn't be a problem and the things as they are now are fine for both groups. =D
No need for the nasty attitude. I just said it's equally important to us because your original post sounded very possessive over the charact… moreer of Joker and Joker doesn't belong to just one group of people to enjoy. As I said I'm pretty sure this potential romance isn't even a thing that will happen in the first place, what we're talking about is hypothetical. So no, we're not "ruining" anything. We're not the creators of the game and we have no control over the writing in it. We're merely fans that have a different look on the character dynamic. I'm not demanding there to be an option, but I'm saying that I wouldn't be against it if there were.
You guys are acting like people already implemented the romance in the next episode by the sole power of a few words in a forum... and it turned out to be a disaster...
Maybe you know something I don't but I was pretty sure we were merely talking and exchanging point of views.
Talking about exchanging point of views, would you and @Dan10 both explain why exactly a potential romance between these two characters would ruin everything for you both by default please ( as you didn't precise that it would ruin the relationship dynamic if it was badly handled, so I consider that you both would hate the very existence of this option no matter the writing ) ? What is there in the relationship as it currently is that you think would be instantly lost with an option of romance ... and is it truly that bad ?
Wait... could it be..... It's important to you too????? What a revelation! I never, ever, ever considered it, I thought you were writing the… morese posts just for the lulz!
The truth is, I doubt a lot of ppl here considering it's not less important to other half of ppl who's against romance option. Otherwise there wouldn't be questions like "why people are bothered by the idea that the option could be there".
But the funny fact is, right now both groups are standing at the middle ground. What this "romance option" means, is that this middle ground is no more. And I'm not the one who's asking to ruin this middle ground.
You got the hug, you got the date, but it's never enough is it? You had to go further and ruin it for another half of ppl who enjoy Batman-Joker dynamic? Nice!
Also, I don't like the fact that some of you equated the idea of John Doe being mentally ill with him being undateable because he's "mentally challenged". As a men… [view original content]
The thing is that I don't understand this idea of a relationship between Batman and Joker not being faithful to "canon" or something. As far as I know, the DC universe is a giant mess, made of different interpretations of characters, events and stuff like that.
In the Tim Burton movie, Joker has killed Bruce Wayne's parents. In an another one, he's a vigilante known as the "Jokester". There are many, many versions of these characters, their backstory, their motivation and all. Why would you be bothered by the existence of ONE version where Batman and Joker could actually have a romantic relationship ?
Especially since Telltale has already modified in a deep way a lot of what fans tend to assume about characters from the Batuniverse. I didn't see an outroar like this when Vicky revealed herself to be Lady Arkham or when it was established that Oz and Bruce were childhood friends. The fact that Vicky is Lady Arkham is only true in this particular universe. I never saw anyone of you telling that the character of Vicky is "ruined" because of that.
Let's be real : the nature of this relationship is bothering you. If there were the same kind of plot, but with Harley instead of Joker (with the possibility to offer a redemption to Harley and stuff and romance implied), I'm 100 % sure that the complaints wouldn't be that loud. They would be there, sure, but I'm sure no "barf gif" would have been posted at the idea of a Batman/Harley Quinn romance.
That's exactly what I'm doing here - trying to explain WHY). I explained it the first time I wrote in this thread. And I explained it again. And agian. Dan10 explained it, GamerLady explained it. How, how else can I explain it if you see my explanation, but yet you don't see it at all, like it's invicible?)
Sexual attraction isn't optional, it's either exists (like with Bruce and Catwoman) or not.
It matters.) I can't make you understand if you don't want to or just dimiss it like it's not important.
Lerena
Let's be real : the nature of this relationship is bothering you. If there were the same kind of plot, but with Harley instead of Joker (with the possibility to offer a redemption to Harley and stuff and romance implied), I'm 100 % sure that the complaints wouldn't be that loud. They would be there, sure, but I'm sure no "barf gif" would have been posted at the idea of a Batman/Harley Quinn romance
Not for me. I'm interested in John and Bruce's story. They have very specific dynamic.
You guys are acting like people already implemented the romance in the next episode by the sole power of a few words in a forum... and it tu… morerned out to be a disaster...
Maybe you know something I don't but I was pretty sure we were merely talking and exchanging point of views.
Talking about exchanging point of views, would you and @Dan10 both explain why exactly a potential romance between these two characters would ruin everything for you both by default please ( as you didn't precise that it would ruin the relationship dynamic if it was badly handled, so I consider that you both would hate the very existence of this option no matter the writing ) ? What is there in the relationship as it currently is that you think would be instantly lost with an option of romance ... and is it truly that bad ?
I did read your post @Tiefling . There are two things bothering me : first, that you treat John as a "child". He's not a child, he's a grown-up man with mental issues. As I said before, I'm mentally ill myself and I have been infantilized a countless number of times for this. I have heard people doubting my sexuality, my point of view on things and my ability to live independantly because of that.
Let's get ableism out of this conversation and consider John Doe like he is : an adult. An adult who knows what love means, but can be manipulated because of his issues and his sheltered life (and who is manipulated by Harley and CAN be manipulated by Bruce). I say "Can", because I did everything I could in my playthrough to make their relationship genuine and not letting Bruce say, even once, that he was "using him" in some way.
The second thing is that you think it'll give second meaning to everything. I don't think so. For example, I didn't pursue the relationship between Bruce and Selina AT ALL. Other people in my playthrough are actually shipping them in some way (Joker, for example, or Alfred), but my Bruce is very clear that he doesn't feel this kind of feeling for Selina. It's crystal clear that MY Bruce Wayne isn't in love with Selina.
Why would it bother you that My Bruce Wayne could be in love with John Doe ? There is no subtext if you chose to not make him pursue John Doe, in case we get this choice. You can even be pretty adamant about the fact that, at best, you're considering him as some kind of friend or so and, at worst, that you're just using him for your own purposes. In your playthrough, there wouldn't be any hint that Joker and Batman could be in love with one another.
I agree that some fans are "too much". The way some people tend to fetichize their relationship (or are only pushing for a sexual thing to happen because "OMAGAD the siiiiiiiiin yaoi") is irking me deeply. I'm not even asking for a kiss or anything like that, especially since I still headcanon my Bruce Wayne as asexual. But an open door to the batjoke relationship wouldn't hurt a fly and would be a pretty bold and nice move from Telltale.
I managed to get my first comment deleted even though there was only one sentence and no insult whatsoever? Nice.
Back to the topic: I completely understand that people don't want to see a Bruce/John romance but the point is, they wouldn't have to. It neither goes against the narrative of the game nor does it break the plot: does the fact that you can romance Selina change the game or the plot in any significant way? Nope, not at all. It's not supposed to. I don't see why it should in this case, so this argument feels very weak to me.
You don't like an option? You don't pick it. Simple as that. If I had to throw a tantrum for every choice I didn't like you'd never hear the end of it. I just go with the ones I like and ignore the others. Look, there's an alternative-universe comics in which Bruce was killed when he was a kid and the Wayne parents became Batman and the Joker. So don't come and tell me it's far-fetched. Comics as a whole are completely ridiculous, and the thing is, it's great. We've had so many sequels, prequels, reboots, alternative universes,... we don't have one version of a character, both Batman and the Joker have been written very differently, depending on the media used, on the story, on the writers. Look at how divided people were on the new 52 issues. Telltale has changed many fundamental aspects of the Batman lore, and they were met with a huge success. If you think it's okay for the Joker to have a Vigilante version, but not for him to be gay for Bruce, you should maybe reconsider your reasoning. Especially seeing as it's already there in the material source - Joker basically flirts with Bats every time he gets a chance to. It's not a surprise that the Lego movie pulled the romantic tropes on their relationship - yes, it's turned into a joke but there's a reason they went with this particular parallel. Batman and Joker's relationship is complex at best. The fact that in this game they've only just started to know each other makes it full of possibilities, especially seeing as John is only starting to really turn into the Joker. They even completely reversed the Harley/Joker dynamic. Are people complaining about it? Nah.
So I'm just saying, for the people who went with the vigilante route and supported John through and through, it'd be a nice addition - obviously that'd be a very bold move on Telltale's part, but I have no doubts they could pull it. Now I don't have my hopes up - been there, done that, I know how it usually ends. But I definitely like and support the idea.
Edit. "Hate against heterosexuality" ...For real? Can't believe you made me read that with my own two eyes.
DC gives TellTale a lot of leeway when it comes to changing things about Batman, but no way would DC allow TellTale to change Batman's (One of the biggest comic book and media icons ever) sexuality. The only way that's going to happen is if DC decides to do that themselves and if they did, it'd be in one of their books, not a video game.
Anyway, since this discussion won't lead everywhere near a constructive discussion, I'll just talk about what I hope for the episode 5 : I hope for the possibility of a romance Batman/Joker, but I don't think they can have a happy ending. I think it will be, at best, quite bittersweet.
As a vigilante, Joker would be probably ready to go further than what Bruce is allowing himself, going as far as killing and/or torturing people for the "greater good". I like the idea of exploring Bruce Wayne's dark side, of seeing what he might be able to accept from John Doe's side because he's relating to him in some way and values their relationship (in my playthrough anyway).
I don't know which road they're going to take, I just hope it won't end with John Doe being back in Arkham and Bruce Wayne doing nothing about it. At the very least, he should donate more money to Arkham to try to make sure that the instutition is treating its mentally ill residents more decently. Arkham is a problematic place, in many ways, and Bruce would probably help his city a lot more by making sure it's a good place, with good people working in it and taking care of the patients.
Hey, guys! It's my first post here, so, please, bear with me.
I love friendship between Batman and Joker and that's why I don't really want to get a romance option. It's one or the other. Any optional romance should involve some kind of attraction which would ruin their friendly relationship and negatively affect the gameplay for those who don't want it. You can think otherwise but there's a pretty obvious example just look at the relationship with Selina. Even if we don't want that option, the developers just throw it in our face each time we meet her. That's a little bit too much annoying.
I would like to add that I was disappointed that for the first and second season of Batman the only romance option was CatWoman. This had nothing to do with the fact that it's a hetero romance, nor that it's an optional romance. I was disappointed it was the only romance.
Bruce Wayne has had so many romantic relationships ( some entirely one-sided ) that I had hoped that we'd have a chance to explore something a little less over used. I wouldn't have minded at all if we'd have a chance to seriously explore the possibility of romancing Harley Quinn. I'm still really excited that we might have a chance to explore a relationship with Agent Avesta.
It takes nothing from my experience or enjoyment that there is a relationship with CatWoman included in both Seasons, especially Season 2. Season 1 I can see the argument where if any relationship was put in CatWoman's place it would feel a bit forced, as it was shipped heavy-handedly, but this is entirely resolved with TellTale's second entry into the basket with the mentions from Alfred and Joker himself feeling more realistic. Dozens of people have had friends nudge them towards relationships that they weren't interested in, and even 'headcannoned' some spark between them that wasn't mutually felt.
I also don't believe that if TellTale included that option to have a bisexual or homosexual relationship that it would take away from my experience at all. Even if it were mentioned by other characters - whether they're joking around about it, asking for clarification about it, or are seriously believing there might be something there. So long as I'm given the option to choose my idea of how Bruce feels about the relationship.
Hello there !
I am of those who think you can't possibly decide your character's sexuality in a Telltale games if the options available oppose that decision. I would never say my Bruce could be asexual, even if I didn't choose to have sex with Selina. It's simply not a mass effect. I played enough Telltale games to know that characters romance can somehow show, but I think it might be that Selina's feelings for Bruce are canon and other characters see it ( Alfred and John ). I don't have a problem with it personnaly as I find their relationship interesting.
However, let's imagine if John was a romance option and reflect about what you guys seem to be worried about.
What exactly would change in John's behavior as a romantic option from the optional best friend we already have ?
John doe already confesses his feelings for Bruce pretty regularly. What would the romance destroy there ?
He will say that Bruce makes his heart race ... more ? because he already does...
He will say that Bruce is so handsome its nuts...more ? because he already does...
He will say that doing stuff with Bruce gives him butterflies in his stomach... more ? because he already does.
You got it by now, there's no difference in that aspect. John is already saying stuff a lover would say so there's absolutely nothing that would change here for the people who don't choose to keep him as a friend.
John is already whipped, so the difference will be seemingless, except in the dialogues that would be triggered specifically for the romance ( and how far could they be from what we already have, I wonder ).
I wouldn't even say Selina's behavior change either actually.
The thing with Selina is that Alfred and John both mention your love affair with her. What would possibly change that's important if Bruce and John end up together ?
Alfred questioning how smart it could actually be to associate with someone that unstable and dangerous ? Which he would have every reason to do even if Bruce and John were only best friends... the dialogues would be the same.
I mean if you remain friends with John after what happened in episode 4 people won't understand, and they can mention John being all over Bruce whether they are dating or not because it would be true anyway. I even doubt villain John suddenly stopped obsessing over Bruce... He just doesn't want to be friend with him anymore and will act as an enemy from now on.
Harley is legit looking at Bruce everytime she is having a moment with John and she tells you ''hands off'', he is ''hers''. What would change if the option was here ? Absolutely nothing, nada.
The friendship between John and Bruce is already so peculiar, that I don't really see how you guys will have your experience ruined... because I don't think anything will change for you in this specific case.
If you guys are worried about a romantic option ruining the dynamic why aren't you worried for the friendship option ruining the dynamic between Batman and villain John as well ( and the other way around ). It seems to me that Bruce and John's relationship as it is, would cause 0 trouble for a romantic option, and many for one as enemies. I have seen people wishing that Bruce and John could stay as friends...and I do too ! But the problems you guys talk about when you are pointing at Batcat, are likely to be encountered if there's a ''optional John doe friendship'' actually.
Let's say that Bruce is in danger...
1. John the friend would worry 2.John the lover would worry. 3. John the villain wouldn't.
Let's say that Alfred wants to give feedback about Batjokes...
1. Bruce and John friendship is weird 2. Bruce and John romance is weird 3. Batman stopping Joker is normal.
Let's say that Harley wants to tease Bruce and show that John is hers...
1. John prefers his friend to his friend. 2. John prefers his boyfriend to his friend 3. the comparison isn't even worth doing as much as it is now if they are enemies, so she basically should stop.
The discrepancy between Vigilante Joker and Villain Joker is greater than the one between Lover Joker and Friend Joker, because the difference in between key dialogues is little to non-existant in John's behavior.
As for Bruce feelings... the ''''''problem'''' ( that is not one because I already said I think you cannot headcanon everything ), is already there. Bruce already cares for John no matter what... I know about the ''we were never friends option'' on the bridge... I just call bullshit. Bruce makes sad faces when John talks about his undying trust for Bruce by default. Bruce cares about John's outburst when Harley is left behind by default. Bruce writes in his codex that he cares about John by default.
You guys expected to be able to have a Bruce who cares for John and another who doesn't at all ? Well that's a real shame because it's not how it works.
The thing is we do not control characters sexuality, we do not even control how they feel about other main characters that much. We choose how they deal with what they feel. Bruce will always love Alfred no matter what, he will always care about Tiffany, he will always care about John, he will always crush on Catwoman but you can decide what he does with those feelings, and even vary the intensity of those. He might not ''love'' Catwoman at all, he might value Justice more than her, he might care for John more than Tiffany or Tiffany more than John... He might choose that over that. Its a game of choices in that aspect. I repeat, Telltale is not pretending to be Mass effect, why should we pretend it is ?
If Bruce ends up having an optional romance I agree that it will be the same, it just won't even show that much because of their respective personnality. I highly doubt Bruce will suddenly feel less awkward when John acts a little too excited just because the romance options popped up... It takes time to get used to these things and that's the kind of time he won't have as I believe the romance won't last. So again, would there be a difference between the potrayal of friendship or romance ? Nope.
The only real difference would be the way John talks about Harley... but Harley is now in a cell in the vigilante ending. He already chose Bruce over her if you guys kept him as a friend. I'd be tempted to say, he'd rather talk about how amazing is relationship with Bruce is no matter if it is as a friend or a lover than his relationship with Harley.
Once again, the very difference between vigilante and villain Joker is more important in that regards. In one ending John kissed Harley ( its safe to assume they will evolve as a couple ), in another he completely left her for Bruce. Isn't the difference even more significant ? Isn't that a worry ? Wouldn't that ruin your experience as it will definitly influence the dialogues/actions inbetween the optional ones ?
Lastly, it will definitly make Bruce bisexual for everyone... and I cannot say anything but... get over it. His sexuality has no importance... ''but... but... but he is straight... it can't be...it's changing canon Batman''. Just stahp dude... I don't want to hear that when we are talking about a game who has Thomas Wayne be a criminal.
Hey, guys! It's my first post here, so, please, bear with me.
I love friendship between Batman and Joker and that's why I don't really want… more to get a romance option. It's one or the other. Any optional romance should involve some kind of attraction which would ruin their friendly relationship and negatively affect the gameplay for those who don't want it. You can think otherwise but there's a pretty obvious example just look at the relationship with Selina. Even if we don't want that option, the developers just throw it in our face each time we meet her. That's a little bit too much annoying.
Hey guys, some of the other mods and I were looking over this thread, and we'd like to ask that discussion get back on track please.
The original thread was just focused on discussing an optional romance in the story, but it seems that the thread has derailed into a discussion about general sexuality in video games, as well as arguments and accusations about controversial comments relating to sexuality and if one supports certain stances.
We're cleaning up some of the posts that derailed the thread, so that the discussion can stay on topic.
If/When you guys see arguments or users trolling/getting argumentative/derailing the thread, please flag posts instead of engaging in the argument. Thanks for helping us out in doing so.
I don't see how a John Doe/Batman romance would be more revolting than the Harley Quinn/John Doe, as they are in the game.
Harley, in this game, is abusive and taking advantage of John Doe's sheltered life and issues to further her agenda. I can't support this relationship, even though I think Harley needs support with her own issues. However, the relationship I see between my Bruce Wayne and my John Doe is something I'd like to see more often.
My Bruce never belittles John Doe for being mentally ill. He's believing him, explaining him patiently when he's doing something inappropriate (like at the funeral) and is able to calm him down. He also trust him to handle situations in which other people are doubting him because he's unstable (ex : getting back the virus from Harley. All of it would have ended fine if Waller didn't intervene).
My Bruce is never condescending with John Doe and John Doe is always supportive with him, going as far as keeping his secret identity for himself and putting his life on the line to save him, even if it means losing the support of a person he cares a lot about.
I rarely see this kind of relationship on any media. Most of the time, the mentally ill character is belittled or is "cured" at the end, in some way, even if the mental illness/neurodivergence they have is not curable IRL. The mentally ill character is not accepted until they're not mentally ill at all. It's not how it is IRL. My mental illness doesn't go away because I've met someone to love me. I'm still mentally ill, I still have my issues.
That's why I see potential in this relationship. That's why I'd like to be able to have a romance relationship between Bruce Wayne and John Doe, among other things. Telltale seems to be able to portray this kind of relationship thoughtfully, so I'd like to see it.
Hello there!!.
I too believe that any sort of romance with John is gonna go horribly wrong for Bruce, and especially his allies. It could also compromise his code. So, that's why I support it. Some say, you already have that sadness with friendship, and I agree, but I think loving John in more than friends way would make the tragedy of it even more deep.
Also, the reactions you get from a scorned lover are more intense than from a friend. John, was already jealous of Catwoman, and it looked to me he was jealous of Avesta. I cannot even imagine what would poor Alfred think of it. I been reading Batman comics for more than 20 years and the possibility of seeing Bruce having doubts about his own existence as Batman if he dosen't stop someone he loves is interesting. And that person being non other than his worst nemesis is completely new.
Anyway, since this discussion won't lead everywhere near a constructive discussion, I'll just talk about what I hope for the episode 5 : I h… moreope for the possibility of a romance Batman/Joker, but I don't think they can have a happy ending. I think it will be, at best, quite bittersweet.
As a vigilante, Joker would be probably ready to go further than what Bruce is allowing himself, going as far as killing and/or torturing people for the "greater good". I like the idea of exploring Bruce Wayne's dark side, of seeing what he might be able to accept from John Doe's side because he's relating to him in some way and values their relationship (in my playthrough anyway).
I don't know which road they're going to take, I just hope it won't end with John Doe being back in Arkham and Bruce Wayne doing nothing about it. At the very least, he should donate more money to Arkham to try to make sure that the instutition is treating its mentally ill resi… [view original content]
“Hey John, I know you killed four or five people rather violently out of self defense, I know you laughed about it afterwards. Plus you also mentioned that you have a friend inside of you that wants to come out of its cage and you even mentioned that it takes over you sometimes. You also seem to get a kick out of harming others without a second thought. Oh and BTW, you blew up parts of a bridge that could have potentially killed us both, but none of that matters John because I have suppressed romantic feelings for you, I think you’re handsome and do you want a kiss on the cheek to make you feel better about yourself?”
“Thanks Bruce, I really appreciate you accept me for who I am no matter how crazy or sadistic I come across.”
I don't see how a John Doe/Batman romance would be more revolting than the Harley Quinn/John Doe, as they are in the game.
Harley, in thi… mores game, is abusive and taking advantage of John Doe's sheltered life and issues to further her agenda. I can't support this relationship, even though I think Harley needs support with her own issues. However, the relationship I see between my Bruce Wayne and my John Doe is something I'd like to see more often.
My Bruce never belittles John Doe for being mentally ill. He's believing him, explaining him patiently when he's doing something inappropriate (like at the funeral) and is able to calm him down. He also trust him to handle situations in which other people are doubting him because he's unstable (ex : getting back the virus from Harley. All of it would have ended fine if Waller didn't intervene).
My Bruce is never condescending with John Doe and John Doe is always supportive with him, going as f… [view original content]
I'm not hoping for a mushy, cutesy romance, it wouldn't work. But conflicting feelings can make a situation very interesting and Bruce Wayne being still willing to help him and get John Doe real support, in spite of what happened, would make me very happy, regardless of the possibility of a romance.
I've seen too many times the mentally ill characters either being killed or jailed without support for their obvious issues, which are only guaranteed to get worse in a prison or a place like Arkham. Josh from Until Dawn or Nathan from Life is strange are the most recent examples I can think of, but there are many more of these in various media.
Bruce Wayne could still love John, while recognizing that he has serious issues that he can't deal with, without proper support. He could seek help, real help for him, with all of his money and all.
People can't seem to imagine a Batman/Joker relationship without it being either "sexual as hell" or "unrealistically cutesy" when it could be way more dark and way more realistic than that. And also very interesting, if the right people are there to handle it properly.
Edit : Also, I read a theory about the funhouse scene that seems pretty realistic. Harley Quinn was the one who killed these guys and John Doe, being confused and manipulated, lied about it, not even sure if he did it or if it's not the case. Hence why his story is so confusing...
“Hey John, I know you killed four or five people rather violently out of self defense, I know you laughed about it afterwards. Plus you also… more mentioned that you have a friend inside of you that wants to come out of its cage and you even mentioned that it takes over you sometimes. You also seem to get a kick out of harming others without a second thought. Oh and BTW, you blew up parts of a bridge that could have potentially killed us both, but none of that matters John because I have suppressed romantic feelings for you, I think you’re handsome and do you want a kiss on the cheek to make you feel better about yourself?”
“Thanks Bruce, I really appreciate you accept me for who I am no matter how crazy or sadistic I come across.”
I can see why there would be detractors.
He already has conflicting feelings about seeing John as his friend. It's also already very interesting. Romance won't add that.
Also that is a good theory about Harley Quinn. But I don't think he was confused. Manipulated into taking the fall maybe, but definitely not confused.
I'm not hoping for a mushy, cutesy romance, it wouldn't work. But conflicting feelings can make a situation very interesting and Bruce Wayne… more being still willing to help him and get John Doe real support, in spite of what happened, would make me very happy, regardless of the possibility of a romance.
I've seen too many times the mentally ill characters either being killed or jailed without support for their obvious issues, which are only guaranteed to get worse in a prison or a place like Arkham. Josh from Until Dawn or Nathan from Life is strange are the most recent examples I can think of, but there are many more of these in various media.
Bruce Wayne could still love John, while recognizing that he has serious issues that he can't deal with, without proper support. He could seek help, real help for him, with all of his money and all.
People can't seem to imagine a Batman/Joker relationship without it being either "sexual as hell" o… [view original content]
That's why I won't mind if the relationship between those two doesn't go to an explicite "romance", because the story is still interesting to me. I'd like the idea of a romance, but I can accept it not being canonically there (and still making my headcanons/maybe writing fanfiction about it).
The two options seem interesting to me and, if the romance option is there, I'd still be interested to play it again or watch a let's play to know how the "friendship" angle is.
John Doe seemed a bit confused to me, though, especially with his laughs, his way of speaking (almost stuttering) and how he tries to "do his exercices" to collect himself Though it's just my interpretation.
He already has conflicting feelings about seeing John as his friend. It's also already very interesting. Romance won't add that.
Also that … moreis a good theory about Harley Quinn. But I don't think he was confused. Manipulated into taking the fall maybe, but definitely not confused.
Well I certainly agree on one thing. It'll definitely be a healthier relationship than John with Harley. I intend to make sure he stays as far away from her as possible.
Its the end discussion though. When he asks Bruce for a second time to trust him. I get season 1 Joker vibes from him when he does that. He also seems to stutter and laugh all the time. What I don't understand, if it was Harley, why did he take the fall and then decide to go after her? But I'm liking the idea that it was her, it would explain why he had to switch up his story when Bruce noticed the agents were shot. She has both a hammer and a gun.
That's why I won't mind if the relationship between those two doesn't go to an explicite "romance", because the story is still interesting t… moreo me. I'd like the idea of a romance, but I can accept it not being canonically there (and still making my headcanons/maybe writing fanfiction about it).
The two options seem interesting to me and, if the romance option is there, I'd still be interested to play it again or watch a let's play to know how the "friendship" angle is.
John Doe seemed a bit confused to me, though, especially with his laughs, his way of speaking (almost stuttering) and how he tries to "do his exercices" to collect himself Though it's just my interpretation.
Why does this thread even still exist? Why wasn't it closed along with "optional Alfred Romance" and "Bane romance"? the discussion here is on it's 10th loop at least.
Why does this thread even still exist? Why wasn't it closed along with "optional Alfred Romance" and "Bane romance"? the discussion here is on it's 10th loop at least.
Him lying for Quinn did occur to my mind, but I can't find a reason, why would he do that. It's not like she didn't kill half of the Gotham population already, what's the point? Where did you read this theory? Did it explained why would he lie in her defence? Cause it's sounds possible, but the motive? Or it's like she killed them and when told him it was him?
I'm not hoping for a mushy, cutesy romance, it wouldn't work. But conflicting feelings can make a situation very interesting and Bruce Wayne… more being still willing to help him and get John Doe real support, in spite of what happened, would make me very happy, regardless of the possibility of a romance.
I've seen too many times the mentally ill characters either being killed or jailed without support for their obvious issues, which are only guaranteed to get worse in a prison or a place like Arkham. Josh from Until Dawn or Nathan from Life is strange are the most recent examples I can think of, but there are many more of these in various media.
Bruce Wayne could still love John, while recognizing that he has serious issues that he can't deal with, without proper support. He could seek help, real help for him, with all of his money and all.
People can't seem to imagine a Batman/Joker relationship without it being either "sexual as hell" o… [view original content]
I think it's because we're getting at a turning point in the story. At this point, John Doe is still unsure of what he's going to do and Harley might have managed to get in his head a little bit.
Bruce's actions after their encounter is what either pushes him in Harley's arms or give him what he needs to get away from her influence and make his own choices. It depends on Bruce's willingness to trust him or not.
It's also why I like the idea of a Bruce/John Doe romance, because this would be a story about an abused man being able to leave an abusive relationship and start a "healthier" one (as healthy a Bruce/John Doe relationship can be).
Edit : I saw the theory somewhere on Tumblr, but I need to find the exact post.
Its the end discussion though. When he asks Bruce for a second time to trust him. I get season 1 Joker vibes from him when he does that. He … morealso seems to stutter and laugh all the time. What I don't understand, if it was Harley, why did he take the fall and then decide to go after her? But I'm liking the idea that it was her, it would explain why he had to switch up his story when Bruce noticed the agents were shot. She has both a hammer and a gun.
I can totally see Bruce wanting to give John support but not in a romantic way especially after John goes on a vendetta that could potentially kill innocent people because given his actions on the bridge he could care less about bystanders regarding his own feelings.
The reason why mentally ill characters are either jailed or killed is because of their actions NOT solely because of their mental state. The Joker in regular fiction isn’t suddenly taken to Arkham because of his makeup or his attitude, it’s solely because he actively kills, mutilates, tortures, dismembers, kidnaps, steals, blackmails, and does basically any horrible thing you can think of and the scary part is that it’s all a joke to him. He just wants to watch the world burn.
You can find John sympathetic to a degree but just about everything he does is morally questionable and unethical. Remember, John is running with a gang of criminals who are essiently terrrorists and have killed LOTS of people and he’s totally cool with it as long as he gets to fuck Harley.
I like John Doe and I want my Bruce to redeem him in some way because he needs mental help but right now, Bruce having feelings for John wouldn’t make a lot of sense for him at all. I should also mention that in the comics, Joker’s “love” was so powerful for Batman that it basically drove him to murder Jason Todd in cold blood.
I'm not hoping for a mushy, cutesy romance, it wouldn't work. But conflicting feelings can make a situation very interesting and Bruce Wayne… more being still willing to help him and get John Doe real support, in spite of what happened, would make me very happy, regardless of the possibility of a romance.
I've seen too many times the mentally ill characters either being killed or jailed without support for their obvious issues, which are only guaranteed to get worse in a prison or a place like Arkham. Josh from Until Dawn or Nathan from Life is strange are the most recent examples I can think of, but there are many more of these in various media.
Bruce Wayne could still love John, while recognizing that he has serious issues that he can't deal with, without proper support. He could seek help, real help for him, with all of his money and all.
People can't seem to imagine a Batman/Joker relationship without it being either "sexual as hell" o… [view original content]
Except its not healthier. John now thinks he can be a vigilante and that's thanks to Bruce's influence, whether he intended that or not. He can't be a vigilante, he's too violent and if he did kill those agents chances are he'll do it again. He also blew up a bridge. Not to mention Bruce did manipulate John. He used him to get in with the pact and also tried to use him to get Harley's laptop. Its not healthier its just another type of dysfunctional.
I think it's because we're getting at a turning point in the story. At this point, John Doe is still unsure of what he's going to do and Har… moreley might have managed to get in his head a little bit.
Bruce's actions after their encounter is what either pushes him in Harley's arms or give him what he needs to get away from her influence and make his own choices. It depends on Bruce's willingness to trust him or not.
It's also why I like the idea of a Bruce/John Doe romance, because this would be a story about an abused man being able to leave an abusive relationship and start a "healthier" one (as healthy a Bruce/John Doe relationship can be).
Edit : I saw the theory somewhere on Tumblr, but I need to find the exact post.
I agree, this subject is getting kinda loopey. I'd like to see other people's take on it, as long as it is respectful and polite.
Edit : @J-Master But the thing is that a lot of their actions is driven from their mental illness, the abuse they went through and so on. Getting them the proper care doesn't mean absolving them of all of their wrong doings. But putting a mentally ill person in jail without any care is guaranteed to worsen their state.
I'd take the "Until Dawn" example again : why every character can be saved, except the canonically mentally ill one ? Almost every character bullied this character's sister to the point that she tried to run away and got killed because of that. Depending on your choices, they can even show no remorse at all about it and still being alive and well by the end of your playthrough.
But Josh doesn't get this opportunity. He is either cursed or dead. It's unfair. And it's the case in a lot of games/movies/tv shows and so on.
It's certainly healthier for his legs. Watch him run, jumping from roof to roof, building muscles. He needs more exercises. Don't you tell me I didn't help him with that vigilante idea! And that bridge was ugly anyway. He helped to improve city landscape. Also, cut off some fat from Waller stomach. And you saying Bruce didn't help.
Except its not healthier. John now thinks he can be a vigilante and that's thanks to Bruce's influence, whether he intended that or not. He … morecan't be a vigilante, he's too violent and if he did kill those agents chances are he'll do it again. He also blew up a bridge. Not to mention Bruce did manipulate John. He used him to get in with the pact and also tried to use him to get Harley's laptop. Its not healthier its just another type of dysfunctional.
I can totally see Bruce wanting to give John support but not in a romantic way especially after John goes on a vendetta that could potential… morely kill innocent people because given his actions on the bridge he could care less about bystanders regarding his own feelings.
The reason why mentally ill characters are either jailed or killed is because of their actions NOT solely because of their mental state. The Joker in regular fiction isn’t suddenly taken to Arkham because of his makeup or his attitude, it’s solely because he actively kills, mutilates, tortures, dismembers, kidnaps, steals, blackmails, and does basically any horrible thing you can think of and the scary part is that it’s all a joke to him. He just wants to watch the world burn.
You can find John sympathetic to a degree but just about everything he does is morally questionable and unethical. Remember, John is running with a gang of criminals who are essiently terrrorists and … [view original content]
Anyway, I'd like it if this relationship was possible because Telltale is able to pull it off and I think it will add to the depth of the batman/joker relationship.
I doubt it's going to be the case if they're going with a season 3, because it would force them to create very, very different stories depending on the relationship Bruce is sharing with John Doe, but I'd still like it to be a possibility.
Yes, which is why the mentally ill people who have a high record in crime rate and murder are given the death penalty. Sure, you have quite a few cases where mentally ill people get rehabilitated but that’s always a risk and there’s always a chance it could be a facade.
I don’t claim to be an expert but imo, I call BS on your “B-but my mental illness made me do it.” There are plenty of psychos in the world who know EXACTLY what they’re doing and just don’t care.
Sometimes in real life, mentally ill people don’t really change or don’t want to change and no matter what kind of care they get, they’ll still go on their murder spree or keep making the same mistakes because they have abandoned their own morals and values. I find it rather disconcerting that you’re kind of treating every mental patient as some kind of misunderstood “puppy dog” when it’s really not that simple.
I get that you mentioned that you had mental issues yourself and I really think you should work on that before it gets worse and that’s the thing with John in Batman, his mental state has gotten worse when it was already somewhat screwed up before.
Found the post about this theory. Please don't harass this person in any way if what you're thinking is different from them :
countessbatm… morean.tumblr.com/post/170246515200/theory-1-i-dont-believe-john-when-he-says-he
I agree, this subject is getting kinda loopey. I'd like to see other people's take on it, as long as it is respectful and polite.
Edit : @J-Master But the thing is that a lot of their actions is driven from their mental illness, the abuse they went through and so on. Getting them the proper care doesn't mean absolving them of all of their wrong doings. But putting a mentally ill person in jail without any care is guaranteed to worsen their state.
I'd take the "Until Dawn" example again : why every character can be saved, except the canonically mentally ill one ? Almost every character bullied this character's sister to the point that she tried to run away and got killed because of that. Depending on your choices, they ca… [view original content]
We're not in the comics, though. It's not the Joker we know in the comics. Jason Todd is not even existing in this universe so far. We can't take facts from the comics when we don't know what they decided to do with his character. He seems already wildly different from his comics counterpart.
Also, I wasn't aware of this possibility because my Bruce immediately turned himself in, but his action could be interpreted in different ways and, personally, I think John Doe would do this to protect Bruce, even though it is morally wrong (or just plain wrong).
I should also mention that in the comics, Joker’s “love” was so powerful for Batman that it basically drove him to murder Jason Todd in cold… more blood.
LOL. So true. In this game he mentions Catwoman is the mole if you stay quiet. And she may lose her arm in the future.
Comments
Is it not, though ? How far Bruce is willing to go to help John Doe on the bridge, and in the funhouse too, can be interpreted in a lot of ways and I don't think my vision is too far-fetched. Is he doing it for love ? Friendship ? Something else ? As it is now, it's up to the player to interpret it.
And offering a choice to initiate a romantic relationship with Joker in the episode 5 would not negate your interpretation, nor it will make mine the "best" or "the only canon choice". It's only a path in the sea of multiple paths offered.
It's just like in Until Dawn, where your choices can influence relationships or make one or more characters die (or not). Or in Beyond Two souls, with the multiple endings offered. One ending is not more "canon" than the other. One choice is not more "accurate" than the other. One relationship isn't more "legit" than the other. It's a possibility.
Does it hurt you so much to let this possibility exists ? In your playthrough, it wouldn't be a reality anyway, so why bother ? It makes me think of the way players were screaming and protesting because there was one gay romance possible in the Mass Effect series for Shephard. Why bother, seriously ?
First of all this isn't Until Dawn. Having a romance option will affect the entire narrative weather you want to admit it or not. Not everything is up to the player's interpreation. Sure you can interpret it however you want to but it goes against the narrative of the game and will break the plot. It's far-fetched and it belongs in the fanfiction section.
Agreed
Wait... could it be..... It's important to you too????? What a revelation! I never, ever, ever considered it, I thought you were writing these posts just for the lulz!
The truth is, I doubt a lot of ppl here considering it's not less important to other half of ppl who's against romance option. Otherwise there wouldn't be questions like "why people are bothered by the idea that the option could be there".
But the funny fact is, right now both groups are standing at the middle ground. What this "romance option" means, is that this middle ground is no more. And I'm not the one who's asking to ruin this middle ground.
You got the hug, you got the date, but it's never enough is it? You had to go further and ruin it for another half of ppl who enjoy Batman-Joker dynamic? Nice!
The problem here isn't John Doe being mentally ill. The problem is with Bruce using it to his advantage, like Harley. Nobody is trying to imply anything bad about people with mental problems.
No need for the nasty attitude. I just said it's equally important to us because your original post sounded very possessive over the character of Joker and Joker doesn't belong to just one group of people to enjoy. As I said I'm pretty sure this potential romance isn't even a thing that will happen in the first place, what we're talking about is hypothetical. So no, we're not "ruining" anything. We're not the creators of the game and we have no control over the writing in it. We're merely fans that have a different look on the character dynamic. I'm not demanding there to be an option, but I'm saying that I wouldn't be against it if there were.
This batitude called "sarcasm", wrote to answer the obvious question you asked.)
Read the posts around here - people around here being possessive, and as you said youself, Joker isn't anyone's property, it's a character.
The original question was "why bothering" - I explained.
If you admit both options are equally important, when there shouldn't be a problem and the things as they are now are fine for both groups. =D
You guys are acting like people already implemented the romance in the next episode by the sole power of a few words in a forum... and it turned out to be a disaster...
Maybe you know something I don't but I was pretty sure we were merely talking and exchanging point of views.
Talking about exchanging point of views, would you and @Dan10 both explain why exactly a potential romance between these two characters would ruin everything for you both by default please ( as you didn't precise that it would ruin the relationship dynamic if it was badly handled, so I consider that you both would hate the very existence of this option no matter the writing ) ? What is there in the relationship as it currently is that you think would be instantly lost with an option of romance ... and is it truly that bad ?
The thing is that I don't understand this idea of a relationship between Batman and Joker not being faithful to "canon" or something. As far as I know, the DC universe is a giant mess, made of different interpretations of characters, events and stuff like that.
In the Tim Burton movie, Joker has killed Bruce Wayne's parents. In an another one, he's a vigilante known as the "Jokester". There are many, many versions of these characters, their backstory, their motivation and all. Why would you be bothered by the existence of ONE version where Batman and Joker could actually have a romantic relationship ?
Especially since Telltale has already modified in a deep way a lot of what fans tend to assume about characters from the Batuniverse. I didn't see an outroar like this when Vicky revealed herself to be Lady Arkham or when it was established that Oz and Bruce were childhood friends. The fact that Vicky is Lady Arkham is only true in this particular universe. I never saw anyone of you telling that the character of Vicky is "ruined" because of that.
Let's be real : the nature of this relationship is bothering you. If there were the same kind of plot, but with Harley instead of Joker (with the possibility to offer a redemption to Harley and stuff and romance implied), I'm 100 % sure that the complaints wouldn't be that loud. They would be there, sure, but I'm sure no "barf gif" would have been posted at the idea of a Batman/Harley Quinn romance.
That's exactly what I'm doing here - trying to explain WHY). I explained it the first time I wrote in this thread. And I explained it again. And agian. Dan10 explained it, GamerLady explained it. How, how else can I explain it if you see my explanation, but yet you don't see it at all, like it's invicible?)
It matters.) I can't make you understand if you don't want to or just dimiss it like it's not important.
Lerena
Not for me. I'm interested in John and Bruce's story. They have very specific dynamic.
I did read your post @Tiefling . There are two things bothering me : first, that you treat John as a "child". He's not a child, he's a grown-up man with mental issues. As I said before, I'm mentally ill myself and I have been infantilized a countless number of times for this. I have heard people doubting my sexuality, my point of view on things and my ability to live independantly because of that.
Let's get ableism out of this conversation and consider John Doe like he is : an adult. An adult who knows what love means, but can be manipulated because of his issues and his sheltered life (and who is manipulated by Harley and CAN be manipulated by Bruce). I say "Can", because I did everything I could in my playthrough to make their relationship genuine and not letting Bruce say, even once, that he was "using him" in some way.
The second thing is that you think it'll give second meaning to everything. I don't think so. For example, I didn't pursue the relationship between Bruce and Selina AT ALL. Other people in my playthrough are actually shipping them in some way (Joker, for example, or Alfred), but my Bruce is very clear that he doesn't feel this kind of feeling for Selina. It's crystal clear that MY Bruce Wayne isn't in love with Selina.
Why would it bother you that My Bruce Wayne could be in love with John Doe ? There is no subtext if you chose to not make him pursue John Doe, in case we get this choice. You can even be pretty adamant about the fact that, at best, you're considering him as some kind of friend or so and, at worst, that you're just using him for your own purposes. In your playthrough, there wouldn't be any hint that Joker and Batman could be in love with one another.
I agree that some fans are "too much". The way some people tend to fetichize their relationship (or are only pushing for a sexual thing to happen because "OMAGAD the siiiiiiiiin yaoi") is irking me deeply. I'm not even asking for a kiss or anything like that, especially since I still headcanon my Bruce Wayne as asexual. But an open door to the batjoke relationship wouldn't hurt a fly and would be a pretty bold and nice move from Telltale.
I managed to get my first comment deleted even though there was only one sentence and no insult whatsoever? Nice.
Back to the topic: I completely understand that people don't want to see a Bruce/John romance but the point is, they wouldn't have to. It neither goes against the narrative of the game nor does it break the plot: does the fact that you can romance Selina change the game or the plot in any significant way? Nope, not at all. It's not supposed to. I don't see why it should in this case, so this argument feels very weak to me.
You don't like an option? You don't pick it. Simple as that. If I had to throw a tantrum for every choice I didn't like you'd never hear the end of it. I just go with the ones I like and ignore the others. Look, there's an alternative-universe comics in which Bruce was killed when he was a kid and the Wayne parents became Batman and the Joker. So don't come and tell me it's far-fetched. Comics as a whole are completely ridiculous, and the thing is, it's great. We've had so many sequels, prequels, reboots, alternative universes,... we don't have one version of a character, both Batman and the Joker have been written very differently, depending on the media used, on the story, on the writers. Look at how divided people were on the new 52 issues. Telltale has changed many fundamental aspects of the Batman lore, and they were met with a huge success. If you think it's okay for the Joker to have a Vigilante version, but not for him to be gay for Bruce, you should maybe reconsider your reasoning. Especially seeing as it's already there in the material source - Joker basically flirts with Bats every time he gets a chance to. It's not a surprise that the Lego movie pulled the romantic tropes on their relationship - yes, it's turned into a joke but there's a reason they went with this particular parallel. Batman and Joker's relationship is complex at best. The fact that in this game they've only just started to know each other makes it full of possibilities, especially seeing as John is only starting to really turn into the Joker. They even completely reversed the Harley/Joker dynamic. Are people complaining about it? Nah.
So I'm just saying, for the people who went with the vigilante route and supported John through and through, it'd be a nice addition - obviously that'd be a very bold move on Telltale's part, but I have no doubts they could pull it. Now I don't have my hopes up - been there, done that, I know how it usually ends. But I definitely like and support the idea.
Edit. "Hate against heterosexuality" ...For real? Can't believe you made me read that with my own two eyes.
DC gives TellTale a lot of leeway when it comes to changing things about Batman, but no way would DC allow TellTale to change Batman's (One of the biggest comic book and media icons ever) sexuality. The only way that's going to happen is if DC decides to do that themselves and if they did, it'd be in one of their books, not a video game.
Honestly, even if Bruce were gay, I doubt he would romance John after the bridge fiasco.
Anyway, since this discussion won't lead everywhere near a constructive discussion, I'll just talk about what I hope for the episode 5 : I hope for the possibility of a romance Batman/Joker, but I don't think they can have a happy ending. I think it will be, at best, quite bittersweet.
As a vigilante, Joker would be probably ready to go further than what Bruce is allowing himself, going as far as killing and/or torturing people for the "greater good". I like the idea of exploring Bruce Wayne's dark side, of seeing what he might be able to accept from John Doe's side because he's relating to him in some way and values their relationship (in my playthrough anyway).
I don't know which road they're going to take, I just hope it won't end with John Doe being back in Arkham and Bruce Wayne doing nothing about it. At the very least, he should donate more money to Arkham to try to make sure that the instutition is treating its mentally ill residents more decently. Arkham is a problematic place, in many ways, and Bruce would probably help his city a lot more by making sure it's a good place, with good people working in it and taking care of the patients.
Hey, guys! It's my first post here, so, please, bear with me.
I love friendship between Batman and Joker and that's why I don't really want to get a romance option. It's one or the other. Any optional romance should involve some kind of attraction which would ruin their friendly relationship and negatively affect the gameplay for those who don't want it. You can think otherwise but there's a pretty obvious example just look at the relationship with Selina. Even if we don't want that option, the developers just throw it in our face each time we meet her. That's a little bit too much annoying.
I would like to add that I was disappointed that for the first and second season of Batman the only romance option was CatWoman. This had nothing to do with the fact that it's a hetero romance, nor that it's an optional romance. I was disappointed it was the only romance.
Bruce Wayne has had so many romantic relationships ( some entirely one-sided ) that I had hoped that we'd have a chance to explore something a little less over used. I wouldn't have minded at all if we'd have a chance to seriously explore the possibility of romancing Harley Quinn. I'm still really excited that we might have a chance to explore a relationship with Agent Avesta.
It takes nothing from my experience or enjoyment that there is a relationship with CatWoman included in both Seasons, especially Season 2. Season 1 I can see the argument where if any relationship was put in CatWoman's place it would feel a bit forced, as it was shipped heavy-handedly, but this is entirely resolved with TellTale's second entry into the basket with the mentions from Alfred and Joker himself feeling more realistic. Dozens of people have had friends nudge them towards relationships that they weren't interested in, and even 'headcannoned' some spark between them that wasn't mutually felt.
I also don't believe that if TellTale included that option to have a bisexual or homosexual relationship that it would take away from my experience at all. Even if it were mentioned by other characters - whether they're joking around about it, asking for clarification about it, or are seriously believing there might be something there. So long as I'm given the option to choose my idea of how Bruce feels about the relationship.
Hello there !
I am of those who think you can't possibly decide your character's sexuality in a Telltale games if the options available oppose that decision. I would never say my Bruce could be asexual, even if I didn't choose to have sex with Selina. It's simply not a mass effect. I played enough Telltale games to know that characters romance can somehow show, but I think it might be that Selina's feelings for Bruce are canon and other characters see it ( Alfred and John ). I don't have a problem with it personnaly as I find their relationship interesting.
However, let's imagine if John was a romance option and reflect about what you guys seem to be worried about.
What exactly would change in John's behavior as a romantic option from the optional best friend we already have ?
John doe already confesses his feelings for Bruce pretty regularly. What would the romance destroy there ?
He will say that Bruce makes his heart race ... more ? because he already does...
He will say that Bruce is so handsome its nuts...more ? because he already does...
He will say that doing stuff with Bruce gives him butterflies in his stomach... more ? because he already does.
You got it by now, there's no difference in that aspect. John is already saying stuff a lover would say so there's absolutely nothing that would change here for the people who don't choose to keep him as a friend.
John is already whipped, so the difference will be seemingless, except in the dialogues that would be triggered specifically for the romance ( and how far could they be from what we already have, I wonder ).
I wouldn't even say Selina's behavior change either actually.
The thing with Selina is that Alfred and John both mention your love affair with her. What would possibly change that's important if Bruce and John end up together ?
Alfred questioning how smart it could actually be to associate with someone that unstable and dangerous ? Which he would have every reason to do even if Bruce and John were only best friends... the dialogues would be the same.
I mean if you remain friends with John after what happened in episode 4 people won't understand, and they can mention John being all over Bruce whether they are dating or not because it would be true anyway. I even doubt villain John suddenly stopped obsessing over Bruce... He just doesn't want to be friend with him anymore and will act as an enemy from now on.
Harley is legit looking at Bruce everytime she is having a moment with John and she tells you ''hands off'', he is ''hers''. What would change if the option was here ? Absolutely nothing, nada.
The friendship between John and Bruce is already so peculiar, that I don't really see how you guys will have your experience ruined... because I don't think anything will change for you in this specific case.
If you guys are worried about a romantic option ruining the dynamic why aren't you worried for the friendship option ruining the dynamic between Batman and villain John as well ( and the other way around ). It seems to me that Bruce and John's relationship as it is, would cause 0 trouble for a romantic option, and many for one as enemies. I have seen people wishing that Bruce and John could stay as friends...and I do too ! But the problems you guys talk about when you are pointing at Batcat, are likely to be encountered if there's a ''optional John doe friendship'' actually.
Let's say that Bruce is in danger...
1. John the friend would worry 2.John the lover would worry. 3. John the villain wouldn't.
Let's say that Alfred wants to give feedback about Batjokes...
1. Bruce and John friendship is weird 2. Bruce and John romance is weird 3. Batman stopping Joker is normal.
Let's say that Harley wants to tease Bruce and show that John is hers...
1. John prefers his friend to his friend. 2. John prefers his boyfriend to his friend 3. the comparison isn't even worth doing as much as it is now if they are enemies, so she basically should stop.
The discrepancy between Vigilante Joker and Villain Joker is greater than the one between Lover Joker and Friend Joker, because the difference in between key dialogues is little to non-existant in John's behavior.
As for Bruce feelings... the ''''''problem'''' ( that is not one because I already said I think you cannot headcanon everything ), is already there. Bruce already cares for John no matter what... I know about the ''we were never friends option'' on the bridge... I just call bullshit. Bruce makes sad faces when John talks about his undying trust for Bruce by default. Bruce cares about John's outburst when Harley is left behind by default. Bruce writes in his codex that he cares about John by default.
You guys expected to be able to have a Bruce who cares for John and another who doesn't at all ? Well that's a real shame because it's not how it works.
The thing is we do not control characters sexuality, we do not even control how they feel about other main characters that much. We choose how they deal with what they feel. Bruce will always love Alfred no matter what, he will always care about Tiffany, he will always care about John, he will always crush on Catwoman but you can decide what he does with those feelings, and even vary the intensity of those. He might not ''love'' Catwoman at all, he might value Justice more than her, he might care for John more than Tiffany or Tiffany more than John... He might choose that over that. Its a game of choices in that aspect. I repeat, Telltale is not pretending to be Mass effect, why should we pretend it is ?
If Bruce ends up having an optional romance I agree that it will be the same, it just won't even show that much because of their respective personnality. I highly doubt Bruce will suddenly feel less awkward when John acts a little too excited just because the romance options popped up... It takes time to get used to these things and that's the kind of time he won't have as I believe the romance won't last. So again, would there be a difference between the potrayal of friendship or romance ? Nope.
The only real difference would be the way John talks about Harley... but Harley is now in a cell in the vigilante ending. He already chose Bruce over her if you guys kept him as a friend. I'd be tempted to say, he'd rather talk about how amazing is relationship with Bruce is no matter if it is as a friend or a lover than his relationship with Harley.
Once again, the very difference between vigilante and villain Joker is more important in that regards. In one ending John kissed Harley ( its safe to assume they will evolve as a couple ), in another he completely left her for Bruce. Isn't the difference even more significant ? Isn't that a worry ? Wouldn't that ruin your experience as it will definitly influence the dialogues/actions inbetween the optional ones ?
Lastly, it will definitly make Bruce bisexual for everyone... and I cannot say anything but... get over it. His sexuality has no importance... ''but... but... but he is straight... it can't be...it's changing canon Batman''. Just stahp dude... I don't want to hear that when we are talking about a game who has Thomas Wayne be a criminal.
Hey guys, some of the other mods and I were looking over this thread, and we'd like to ask that discussion get back on track please.
The original thread was just focused on discussing an optional romance in the story, but it seems that the thread has derailed into a discussion about general sexuality in video games, as well as arguments and accusations about controversial comments relating to sexuality and if one supports certain stances.
We're cleaning up some of the posts that derailed the thread, so that the discussion can stay on topic.
If/When you guys see arguments or users trolling/getting argumentative/derailing the thread, please flag posts instead of engaging in the argument. Thanks for helping us out in doing so.
I don't see how a John Doe/Batman romance would be more revolting than the Harley Quinn/John Doe, as they are in the game.
Harley, in this game, is abusive and taking advantage of John Doe's sheltered life and issues to further her agenda. I can't support this relationship, even though I think Harley needs support with her own issues. However, the relationship I see between my Bruce Wayne and my John Doe is something I'd like to see more often.
My Bruce never belittles John Doe for being mentally ill. He's believing him, explaining him patiently when he's doing something inappropriate (like at the funeral) and is able to calm him down. He also trust him to handle situations in which other people are doubting him because he's unstable (ex : getting back the virus from Harley. All of it would have ended fine if Waller didn't intervene).
My Bruce is never condescending with John Doe and John Doe is always supportive with him, going as far as keeping his secret identity for himself and putting his life on the line to save him, even if it means losing the support of a person he cares a lot about.
I rarely see this kind of relationship on any media. Most of the time, the mentally ill character is belittled or is "cured" at the end, in some way, even if the mental illness/neurodivergence they have is not curable IRL. The mentally ill character is not accepted until they're not mentally ill at all. It's not how it is IRL. My mental illness doesn't go away because I've met someone to love me. I'm still mentally ill, I still have my issues.
That's why I see potential in this relationship. That's why I'd like to be able to have a romance relationship between Bruce Wayne and John Doe, among other things. Telltale seems to be able to portray this kind of relationship thoughtfully, so I'd like to see it.
Hello there!!.
I too believe that any sort of romance with John is gonna go horribly wrong for Bruce, and especially his allies. It could also compromise his code. So, that's why I support it. Some say, you already have that sadness with friendship, and I agree, but I think loving John in more than friends way would make the tragedy of it even more deep.
Also, the reactions you get from a scorned lover are more intense than from a friend. John, was already jealous of Catwoman, and it looked to me he was jealous of Avesta. I cannot even imagine what would poor Alfred think of it. I been reading Batman comics for more than 20 years and the possibility of seeing Bruce having doubts about his own existence as Batman if he dosen't stop someone he loves is interesting. And that person being non other than his worst nemesis is completely new.
“Hey John, I know you killed four or five people rather violently out of self defense, I know you laughed about it afterwards. Plus you also mentioned that you have a friend inside of you that wants to come out of its cage and you even mentioned that it takes over you sometimes. You also seem to get a kick out of harming others without a second thought. Oh and BTW, you blew up parts of a bridge that could have potentially killed us both, but none of that matters John because I have suppressed romantic feelings for you, I think you’re handsome and do you want a kiss on the cheek to make you feel better about yourself?”
“Thanks Bruce, I really appreciate you accept me for who I am no matter how crazy or sadistic I come across.”
I can see why there would be detractors.
I'm not hoping for a mushy, cutesy romance, it wouldn't work. But conflicting feelings can make a situation very interesting and Bruce Wayne being still willing to help him and get John Doe real support, in spite of what happened, would make me very happy, regardless of the possibility of a romance.
I've seen too many times the mentally ill characters either being killed or jailed without support for their obvious issues, which are only guaranteed to get worse in a prison or a place like Arkham. Josh from Until Dawn or Nathan from Life is strange are the most recent examples I can think of, but there are many more of these in various media.
Bruce Wayne could still love John, while recognizing that he has serious issues that he can't deal with, without proper support. He could seek help, real help for him, with all of his money and all.
People can't seem to imagine a Batman/Joker relationship without it being either "sexual as hell" or "unrealistically cutesy" when it could be way more dark and way more realistic than that. And also very interesting, if the right people are there to handle it properly.
Edit : Also, I read a theory about the funhouse scene that seems pretty realistic. Harley Quinn was the one who killed these guys and John Doe, being confused and manipulated, lied about it, not even sure if he did it or if it's not the case. Hence why his story is so confusing...
If that was the way the script was written, it'd be universally panned, then become a cult classic like watching The Room.
He already has conflicting feelings about seeing John as his friend. It's also already very interesting. Romance won't add that.
Also that is a good theory about Harley Quinn. But I don't think he was confused. Manipulated into taking the fall maybe, but definitely not confused.
That's why I won't mind if the relationship between those two doesn't go to an explicite "romance", because the story is still interesting to me. I'd like the idea of a romance, but I can accept it not being canonically there (and still making my headcanons/maybe writing fanfiction about it).
The two options seem interesting to me and, if the romance option is there, I'd still be interested to play it again or watch a let's play to know how the "friendship" angle is.
John Doe seemed a bit confused to me, though, especially with his laughs, his way of speaking (almost stuttering) and how he tries to "do his exercices" to collect himself Though it's just my interpretation.
Well I certainly agree on one thing. It'll definitely be a healthier relationship than John with Harley. I intend to make sure he stays as far away from her as possible.
Its the end discussion though. When he asks Bruce for a second time to trust him. I get season 1 Joker vibes from him when he does that. He also seems to stutter and laugh all the time. What I don't understand, if it was Harley, why did he take the fall and then decide to go after her? But I'm liking the idea that it was her, it would explain why he had to switch up his story when Bruce noticed the agents were shot. She has both a hammer and a gun.
Why does this thread even still exist? Why wasn't it closed along with "optional Alfred Romance" and "Bane romance"? the discussion here is on it's 10th loop at least.
lol. That's actually true. Things are on repeat. It could be that telltale actually plans to do it.
Him lying for Quinn did occur to my mind, but I can't find a reason, why would he do that. It's not like she didn't kill half of the Gotham population already, what's the point? Where did you read this theory? Did it explained why would he lie in her defence? Cause it's sounds possible, but the motive? Or it's like she killed them and when told him it was him?
I think it's because we're getting at a turning point in the story. At this point, John Doe is still unsure of what he's going to do and Harley might have managed to get in his head a little bit.
Bruce's actions after their encounter is what either pushes him in Harley's arms or give him what he needs to get away from her influence and make his own choices. It depends on Bruce's willingness to trust him or not.
It's also why I like the idea of a Bruce/John Doe romance, because this would be a story about an abused man being able to leave an abusive relationship and start a "healthier" one (as healthy a Bruce/John Doe relationship can be).
Edit : I saw the theory somewhere on Tumblr, but I need to find the exact post.
Agreed.
I can totally see Bruce wanting to give John support but not in a romantic way especially after John goes on a vendetta that could potentially kill innocent people because given his actions on the bridge he could care less about bystanders regarding his own feelings.
The reason why mentally ill characters are either jailed or killed is because of their actions NOT solely because of their mental state. The Joker in regular fiction isn’t suddenly taken to Arkham because of his makeup or his attitude, it’s solely because he actively kills, mutilates, tortures, dismembers, kidnaps, steals, blackmails, and does basically any horrible thing you can think of and the scary part is that it’s all a joke to him. He just wants to watch the world burn.
You can find John sympathetic to a degree but just about everything he does is morally questionable and unethical. Remember, John is running with a gang of criminals who are essiently terrrorists and have killed LOTS of people and he’s totally cool with it as long as he gets to fuck Harley.
I like John Doe and I want my Bruce to redeem him in some way because he needs mental help but right now, Bruce having feelings for John wouldn’t make a lot of sense for him at all. I should also mention that in the comics, Joker’s “love” was so powerful for Batman that it basically drove him to murder Jason Todd in cold blood.
Except its not healthier. John now thinks he can be a vigilante and that's thanks to Bruce's influence, whether he intended that or not. He can't be a vigilante, he's too violent and if he did kill those agents chances are he'll do it again. He also blew up a bridge. Not to mention Bruce did manipulate John. He used him to get in with the pact and also tried to use him to get Harley's laptop. Its not healthier its just another type of dysfunctional.
Found the post about this theory. Please don't harass this person in any way if what you're thinking is different from them :
countessbatman.tumblr.com/post/170246515200/theory-1-i-dont-believe-john-when-he-says-he
I agree, this subject is getting kinda loopey. I'd like to see other people's take on it, as long as it is respectful and polite.
Edit : @J-Master But the thing is that a lot of their actions is driven from their mental illness, the abuse they went through and so on. Getting them the proper care doesn't mean absolving them of all of their wrong doings. But putting a mentally ill person in jail without any care is guaranteed to worsen their state.
I'd take the "Until Dawn" example again : why every character can be saved, except the canonically mentally ill one ? Almost every character bullied this character's sister to the point that she tried to run away and got killed because of that. Depending on your choices, they can even show no remorse at all about it and still being alive and well by the end of your playthrough.
But Josh doesn't get this opportunity. He is either cursed or dead. It's unfair. And it's the case in a lot of games/movies/tv shows and so on.
It's certainly healthier for his legs. Watch him run, jumping from roof to roof, building muscles. He needs more exercises. Don't you tell me I didn't help him with that vigilante idea! And that bridge was ugly anyway. He helped to improve city landscape. Also, cut off some fat from Waller stomach. And you saying Bruce didn't help.
LOL. So true. In this game he mentions Catwoman is the mole if you stay quiet. And she may lose her arm in the future.
Anyway, I'd like it if this relationship was possible because Telltale is able to pull it off and I think it will add to the depth of the batman/joker relationship.
I doubt it's going to be the case if they're going with a season 3, because it would force them to create very, very different stories depending on the relationship Bruce is sharing with John Doe, but I'd still like it to be a possibility.
Yes, which is why the mentally ill people who have a high record in crime rate and murder are given the death penalty. Sure, you have quite a few cases where mentally ill people get rehabilitated but that’s always a risk and there’s always a chance it could be a facade.
I don’t claim to be an expert but imo, I call BS on your “B-but my mental illness made me do it.” There are plenty of psychos in the world who know EXACTLY what they’re doing and just don’t care.
Sometimes in real life, mentally ill people don’t really change or don’t want to change and no matter what kind of care they get, they’ll still go on their murder spree or keep making the same mistakes because they have abandoned their own morals and values. I find it rather disconcerting that you’re kind of treating every mental patient as some kind of misunderstood “puppy dog” when it’s really not that simple.
I get that you mentioned that you had mental issues yourself and I really think you should work on that before it gets worse and that’s the thing with John in Batman, his mental state has gotten worse when it was already somewhat screwed up before.
We're not in the comics, though. It's not the Joker we know in the comics. Jason Todd is not even existing in this universe so far. We can't take facts from the comics when we don't know what they decided to do with his character. He seems already wildly different from his comics counterpart.
Also, I wasn't aware of this possibility because my Bruce immediately turned himself in, but his action could be interpreted in different ways and, personally, I think John Doe would do this to protect Bruce, even though it is morally wrong (or just plain wrong).