I think many fans of the paring does.
Also, what you say about giving John the chance to heal from Bruce perspective sounds great. In the Killing Joke you already see Batman trying at least to stop their fight by saying "let me help you, we don't have to end killing each other."
I would like to see somthing similar in this game too. I think that, having already established a relationship with John would make it more powerful.
Anyway, I'd like it if this relationship was possible because Telltale is able to pull it off and I think it will add to the depth of the ba… moretman/joker relationship.
I doubt it's going to be the case if they're going with a season 3, because it would force them to create very, very different stories depending on the relationship Bruce is sharing with John Doe, but I'd still like it to be a possibility.
What I'm doing with my mental issues is none of your concern, since I haven't decided to talk more about it. However, you might be "happy" to know that I'm getting help, proper help, and it's a support I do need. A support I wouldn't have if I was just in prison or, I dunno, killed.
I'm not treating mentally ill people as "misunderstood puppy dog", because it's more complicated than that. And it's also more complicated than your "we should just kill them" take. It's difficult to realize how much society is ableist (and how this ableism can be damaging to mentally ill people and lead to tragic outcomes) when you're on the "good side" of the barrier.
I'll take John Doe's case as an example : if Waller hasn't intervened when Bruce decided to trust him, then things could have been better. Maybe Bruce would have been able to earn enough trust from John Doe to get him to accept to be helped properly (and not in the Arkham way, where they're basically just letting them roam around like animals in a zoo). Maybe things could have had an happy ending, with romance or not, which we're pretty much guaranteed to not get right now.
You need to educate yourself about mental illness/neurodivergence and the way it's poorly handled, in media or IRL. It's a real problem with real consequences (like policemen killing mentally ill teenagers because they're displaying an "abnormal" behavior and those men, not trained properly, are immediately going into a "fight or flight" reaction).
Yes, which is why the mentally ill people who have a high record in crime rate and murder are given the death penalty. Sure, you have quite … morea few cases where mentally ill people get rehabilitated but that’s always a risk and there’s always a chance it could be a facade.
I don’t claim to be an expert but imo, I call BS on your “B-but my mental illness made me do it.” There are plenty of psychos in the world who know EXACTLY what they’re doing and just don’t care.
Sometimes in real life, mentally ill people don’t really change or don’t want to change and no matter what kind of care they get, they’ll still go on their murder spree or keep making the same mistakes because they have abandoned their own morals and values. I find it rather disconcerting that you’re kind of treating every mental patient as some kind of misunderstood “puppy dog” when it’s really not that simple.
I get that you mentioned that you had mental issues yourself and… [view original content]
Yeah, by the way, I read a pretty interesting fanfic with John Doe actually accepting to get help at the end of Killing Joke, instead of the ambiguous ending we got. I didn't think it was "forcing" the Bruce Wayne/Joker, but, on the contrary, it was a slow building and a pretty nice deconstruction of the way mentally ill characters are usually treated in the bat-universe.
I think many fans of the paring does.
Also, what you say about giving John the chance to heal from Bruce perspective sounds great. In the… more Killing Joke you already see Batman trying at least to stop their fight by saying "let me help you, we don't have to end killing each other."
I would like to see somthing similar in this game too. I think that, having already established a relationship with John would make it more powerful.
I do not see a point posting in this tread as it is going in circles, but I just can't stop myself from doing so...
Many mentioned it before me, and it didn’t convince the unconvinced, but I will say what I think anyway.
There was never any confirmation nor evidence that Bruce in comics had any kind of romantic feelings for another man. People defending romance between Bruce and Joker as taking place in the comics are just making assumptions basing on their own perception of these stories- nothing wrong with having their own opinions, but they are not an evidence. The fact is that there was NEVER any ROMANCE between Batman and Joker (there was only Joker's obsession towards Batman).
That is true, that there are many comic stories that take different approaches on different characters in comics, but the most twisted ones (like Batman becoming a villain and Joker a hero) were never intended to be considered a cannon, they are just ‘what ifs’. And as far as I know, in DC, comics are cannon up until the following comics would not dismiss something written before. So the truth is, there is a canon story, it changes in time, but it is there (with crutial plot points staying unchanged for decades). Bruce had many romances (always with women), he has a biological son, he is getting married (with a woman) – these are the facts, this is the canon. And the game was, as for now, compatible with this canon. I would be extremely disappointed if it would break it.
I am definitelly against the idea of any kind of romance between Bruce and John, because I want Bruce from the game to stay as close to the comic book original Bruce as possible.
And the most important think I would like to say...
I hope writers would continue to do their awesome job with focusing on the main points of the story they want to tell, WITHOUT any special changes applied only because of requests from people on the forum. I want to see what Telltale wants to tell us, not experience the one big fan-service game.
I disagree with some of what you just said, but I agree on one point : whatever you have decided Telltale, romance or not, do what you think is right and proper for your story. I'd be really happy if a romance option was possible, but I'd accept it as well if it's not there.
Just, please... If it is THERE in your idea right now... don't take it away because you're doubting after having reading some posts on this thread. If you don't plan to make it real, fine, but I certainly hope you won't back away after reading this if it was your primary plan.
I do not see a point posting in this tread as it is going in circles, but I just can't stop myself from doing so...
Many mentioned it bef… moreore me, and it didn’t convince the unconvinced, but I will say what I think anyway.
There was never any confirmation nor evidence that Bruce in comics had any kind of romantic feelings for another man. People defending romance between Bruce and Joker as taking place in the comics are just making assumptions basing on their own perception of these stories- nothing wrong with having their own opinions, but they are not an evidence. The fact is that there was NEVER any ROMANCE between Batman and Joker (there was only Joker's obsession towards Batman).
That is true, that there are many comic stories that take different approaches on different characters in comics, but the most twisted ones (like Batman becoming a villain and Joker a hero) were never intended to be considered a cannon, they are just ‘wha… [view original content]
I believe Telltale cares for the stories they tell as much, or more as we, the fans. If there are any ideas they are doubting - that maybe these doubts have a reason and are worth thinking over. There are certain decisions that may be applauded by a vocal few, but may result in many others being highly disappointed.
And I am sure, the whole community on this forum is only a small percentage of overall number of players. Always the most controversial threads have the highest post/view rate. It does not mean that these threads anyhow represents what most of the players thinks. Feedback is always good, but it is only it - opinions from few people who have time to write here.
Let's just let Telltale do their job not disturbed, with no pressure.
I disagree with some of what you just said, but I agree on one point : whatever you have decided Telltale, romance or not, do what you think… more is right and proper for your story. I'd be really happy if a romance option was possible, but I'd accept it as well if it's not there.
Just, please... If it is THERE in your idea right now... don't take it away because you're doubting after having reading some posts on this thread. If you don't plan to make it real, fine, but I certainly hope you won't back away after reading this if it was your primary plan.
You have good points. But I would argue that indicating anything as "canon" is like walking on ice. There is in reality no such thing as canon. If there was "canon" DC wouldn't have wiped their "canon" with the new 52 and then they wouldn't have wiped again that "canon" with Rebirth. Grant Morrison says that Batman is "very, very gay". Frank Miller says Batman isn't gay but he wrote Joker gay, and that they are traped in an "homophobic nightmare". Then Neal Adams says that he dosen't see Joker as anything but gay and so on and on.
The truth is, you are dealing with art. Art is a medium about interpretations and symbolism, is not mathematics, is not physics, is not the law of gravity. Is something that is continually flowing and changing and it adapts with the changes in culture and society.
Homoeroticism is in the Batman lore. Some people dosen't see it, some does. Some sees Batman as heroic, some think he is a sociopath. Selina is bisexual in the comics. She wasn't like that 20 years ago. Harley is bisexual in the comics, she wasn't like that in the original series. Bruce, may change too, we don't know that.
About the many posts that were showing the supposedly "romance" in the comics.... I won't say is romance more that I would say that the dynamic is treated as such symbolically, it dosen't make Batman and Joker be literaly "in love" with each other more than it may be the intention of some of the artists to create a feeling of terror and obssesion; a fatal affair.
This Bruce is not as close as the "canon" one as you may think. I would ask in which canon? The canon from Frank Miller? canon from Grant Morrison?, he is not even close to the canon of the animatied series. Batman is mostly cold and calculating, he would have said to Amanda Waller to f*** up and would have gone after The Pact ages ago. He wouldn't have infiltrated them and risked to expose his identity. But this Bruce does, and he is no less great or less heroic. And he is far more emotionally balanced than "canon" Bruce is.
I do not see a point posting in this tread as it is going in circles, but I just can't stop myself from doing so...
Many mentioned it bef… moreore me, and it didn’t convince the unconvinced, but I will say what I think anyway.
There was never any confirmation nor evidence that Bruce in comics had any kind of romantic feelings for another man. People defending romance between Bruce and Joker as taking place in the comics are just making assumptions basing on their own perception of these stories- nothing wrong with having their own opinions, but they are not an evidence. The fact is that there was NEVER any ROMANCE between Batman and Joker (there was only Joker's obsession towards Batman).
That is true, that there are many comic stories that take different approaches on different characters in comics, but the most twisted ones (like Batman becoming a villain and Joker a hero) were never intended to be considered a cannon, they are just ‘wha… [view original content]
Guys, another mod reminder here - stick to the topic at hand. While some of the issues are indeed important in the real-world, it's starting to verge on political, which we decided to purge ourselves of because of the hostility that incurred because of it. So please, focus on the actual purpose of the thread and keep it cool, you hear? I really don't want to lock this thread, which has produced some very interesting points.
@Kaelthas
Oh believe me when I say Joker's feelings are reciprocated... its just usually require Joker to die/almost die for Batman to st… moreop denying it.
@Jmooox Joker and Batman relationship has romance elements in it and I already sent exemples in the second page of this exact same thread... and I am not running low quite the contrary in fact. . I leave out the writers comments themselves where they compare Batjokes relationship to a romantic relationship and the already very straightfoward, ways the other characters point out not only Joker's feelings but Batman's ones as well. Their relationship also has elements of rivalry, friendship, enemies, whorshipper/whorshipped... but a romance as well. Since Batman pretty much acknowledged Joker was in love with him and so did Catwoman and well... Joker himself. There's also the desire shared both by Batman and Joker in the end of Europa to ''either kiss o… [view original content]
I hope polite discussion on the comics stories as a background in regard to Joker / Batman relationship is still on topic in this thread. (If no, dear Moderators, please let me know).
The thing is, there are some things that may be interpreted differently by every reader and on the other hand there are some events, dialogs that are just facts and can’t been denied. There were never any evidence in comics that Batman is in love with Joker (but there are plain evidences that he was/is in love with a woman). I understand that people see the ‘art’ trough their own experiences, believes. We probably have to accept that there will be always different point of views on this matter. Everyone has the right to see whatever they want to see in these comics. But I will stay unconvinced – I think this romance was never there - I never saw it there, fellow comic readers with whom I talked never saw it there.
Morrison, whom you are referring to, clarified later on, that what he said in that interview was exactly the opposite and it was misinterpreted. And he is also considered to be provocative, so I would not take seriously what he said as any reference. Grant, who was a writer of Batman for over ten years, said he never saw Batman as gay. He also said that the writers back to Kane never wrote Batman as gay. As for Joker, I would not bet here, as I said he was definitely obsessed with Batman, maybe he was intended by some writers to be homosexual, but still it does not change the fact that Batman was not, so there is no way to talk about a romance.
DC retcons their previous storyline just because they try to make the ‘canon’ events less messy, but it does not mean that the New 52 or Rebirth automatically deprecates everything that was written before – it is just that the events from the new, ongoing series are ‘overriding’ what was written before in the places where the old storylines collide with the new ones.
Still, it is ok to disagree. Just, for me, the idea of Batman having a romance with Joker has no support in any evidence in the comic plotline. For me this ‘ship’ is so abstract, that it is just something I would not like to see happening.
And about the ‘in game’ Bruce compared to the one in comics, I perfectly well know the differences, still they do not break what most comics readers see as the canon. Bruce in the game is less grumpy, less brooding, more talkative, probably more expressive. But on the other hand, he is just a rookie, ha has time to become the brooding, depressing Batman
You have good points. But I would argue that indicating anything as "canon" is like walking on ice. There is in reality no such thing as can… moreon. If there was "canon" DC wouldn't have wiped their "canon" with the new 52 and then they wouldn't have wiped again that "canon" with Rebirth. Grant Morrison says that Batman is "very, very gay". Frank Miller says Batman isn't gay but he wrote Joker gay, and that they are traped in an "homophobic nightmare". Then Neal Adams says that he dosen't see Joker as anything but gay and so on and on.
The truth is, you are dealing with art. Art is a medium about interpretations and symbolism, is not mathematics, is not physics, is not the law of gravity. Is something that is continually flowing and changing and it adapts with the changes in culture and society.
Homoeroticism is in the Batman lore. Some people dosen't see it, some does. Some sees Batman as heroic, some think he is a sociopath. Selina is bise… [view original content]
That is ok Gartives. I understand that Batman has already a "canon"... or better put a "widespread" interpretation in many people's minds. My point is, that in reality this concept "canon" is not real. Because in real life no one is there to govern your imagination, not the writers, nor corporations, the only ones who does that is ourselves.
Even the writers themselves in any medium don't take the "canon" as an absolute rule at all. Because, what would be the point of making the same thing over and over again? Each time a writer takes on Batman, you are actually reading that writer's own interpretation of the character, there isn't a defining rule in how the character is going to be represented.
Even the fundamentals of Batman can be shaken, an example; Thomas in this universe is a ganster, or a criminal. Another example, is giving Batman a happy ending, which I believe is what is happening in the current Rebirth comics. Is that Batman? Many say he can't get married, he can't have a happy ending because at his core Batman is a tragic character and the real "canon Batman" is a sad person. But how true is that?
Adam West was the canon Batman of his time. And the Golden Age comics Batman was the canon of its time. Brooding, angry Batman is the canon of our time. DC trying to include everything as "canon" is actually, I think, a way to acknowledge legacity in their own history as publisher, and because of the fans own demands. But imagine the trouble it causes to the writers, it kind of limits their freedom to tell stories.
And as you mentioned the wierd, evil "love affair" between Batman and Joker is very, very abstract. I never said is was actual romantic love. Some posts about this have mentioned it. Is completely symbolic. And I don't think is meant to be a sort of "endaring love" more than something meant to bring that kind of horror thing. People find this interesting and one of the reasons they like the Batman/Joker dynamic over other typical hero and villan one.
I hope polite discussion on the comics stories as a background in regard to Joker / Batman relationship is still on topic in this thread. (I… moref no, dear Moderators, please let me know).
The thing is, there are some things that may be interpreted differently by every reader and on the other hand there are some events, dialogs that are just facts and can’t been denied. There were never any evidence in comics that Batman is in love with Joker (but there are plain evidences that he was/is in love with a woman). I understand that people see the ‘art’ trough their own experiences, believes. We probably have to accept that there will be always different point of views on this matter. Everyone has the right to see whatever they want to see in these comics. But I will stay unconvinced – I think this romance was never there - I never saw it there, fellow comic readers with whom I talked never saw it there.
Morrison, whom you are referring to, clar… [view original content]
I think you might need to branch out a little bit in fiction, Batman, Daredevil, Punisher, X-Men characters, Spider Man, and even Superman in some ways all suffer from a certain kind of mental illness one way or the other depending on the writer. Narcissism and lack of empathy for people are usually the types of mental illness given to villains because those are far from positive traits. Thanks for twisting my words, I never said, “We should just kill them.” I’m presenting the situation where a “cure” seems nigh impossible, I have known someone who has been to rehab over four times and every time this person comes out, they end up making the exact same mistakes and fail to amend their personal problems despite the fact everyone around this person has done everything to help them to no avail. Sometimes in real life, people just can’t get help and that always sucks.
Forgive me if I’m not a fan of sugarcoating and treating mental illness or any other disability like it’s no big deal and you’re just special all the way and just have misunderstood gifts. That’s my piece so of the gay romance option is there, don’t get annoyed if I say I didn’t choose because I thought it was stupid.
What I'm doing with my mental issues is none of your concern, since I haven't decided to talk more about it. However, you might be "happy" t… moreo know that I'm getting help, proper help, and it's a support I do need. A support I wouldn't have if I was just in prison or, I dunno, killed.
I'm not treating mentally ill people as "misunderstood puppy dog", because it's more complicated than that. And it's also more complicated than your "we should just kill them" take. It's difficult to realize how much society is ableist (and how this ableism can be damaging to mentally ill people and lead to tragic outcomes) when you're on the "good side" of the barrier.
I'll take John Doe's case as an example : if Waller hasn't intervened when Bruce decided to trust him, then things could have been better. Maybe Bruce would have been able to earn enough trust from John Doe to get him to accept to be helped properly (and not in the Arkham way, where they're b… [view original content]
My special interests lies in pop culture in general and I spend most of my time watching, playing and getting information from and about various media, so I'm kinda aware of this stuff.
"Lack of empathy" as a "villain trait" is kinda iffy for me, because lack or too much of empathy is pretty much an autistic trait and it's always treated as "making someone automatically bad" when it's more of a "I don't always know how to relate to people when it's a situation I didn't experienced myself".
It's not about "sugarcoating" mental illness or neurodivergence, especially since I'm myself both of them and I'm also an online activist for neurodiversity. It's about offering proper care to people who would only get worse, sometimes to the point of suicide, in jail where this help isn't always provided.
I won't get annoyed if you didn't pick the "gay romance option", as you said. I'll only be annoyed if you use homophobic wording or if you might be mean to people who chose this option. If this option even exists, of course.
I don't see the point of getting angry at someone for choosing to do something or not in a video game. It's a video game with the idea of roleplaying a character in a way that suits you and in the limitations that the game has set up for you.
After all, my Bigby was a pretty bad person, with some good sides. Someone coming at me to tell me that my way of playing him is wrong would make no sense.
My Bruce pursuing a "romantic" relationship, like I said before, wouldn't be more "legit" or "better" or whatever than your Bruce not doing so.
I think you might need to branch out a little bit in fiction, Batman, Daredevil, Punisher, X-Men characters, Spider Man, and even Superman i… moren some ways all suffer from a certain kind of mental illness one way or the other depending on the writer. Narcissism and lack of empathy for people are usually the types of mental illness given to villains because those are far from positive traits. Thanks for twisting my words, I never said, “We should just kill them.” I’m presenting the situation where a “cure” seems nigh impossible, I have known someone who has been to rehab over four times and every time this person comes out, they end up making the exact same mistakes and fail to amend their personal problems despite the fact everyone around this person has done everything to help them to no avail. Sometimes in real life, people just can’t get help and that always sucks.
Forgive me if I’m not a fan of sugarcoating and treating mental illness or … [view original content]
Someone wrote that DC would never allow Telltale to make their iconic characters like Bruce and Joker offically gay. (Though I see Bruce being bisexual and Joker gay, but y'know details.) And even though I love the idea of romance, I think they're right. I think the company would be too afraid of the backlash for something like this to happen, even if it's only optional. But then again, they allowed the show Gotham to make Penguin have feelings for Riddler so y'know ... maybe there is a small precent of a chance that it could happen. Also as it was mentioned before; Harley, Selina and even Diana were revealed to be bisexual, so why is it so hard to believe that perhaps a make-up wearing, often flamboyant and crossdressing clown that has an obsession with a man dressed up as a bat could perhaps not be as straight as people believe? Even before I got really into Batman/DC and I didn't care for any of this stuff, I always just assumed Joker was gay from the glimpses of media I've seen here and there. I mean even if you disagree on Joker's sexuality, you gotta admit to the outsider this can seem a bit gay. And in early years a lot of villains possessed stereotypical gay traits (anyone remembers cartoon network shows with Him from Powerpuff girls and Red guy from Cow & Chicken?) because they were seen as a bad thing and were meant to make you uncomftrable.
There's a lot of discussion about Bruce's feelings in the comics and I think that for the most part I see the Batman/Joker dynamic as an one-sided love from Joker's side and a weird attachment from Batman's (even though he'd deny it to his grave, but he still saves Joker many times and for example seemed heartbroken when the clown died in Arkham City). But in this game I feel like that for the first time it could be mutual because these are different versions of Batman and Joker and John didn't do anything too horrible (yet) for Bruce to nope out of it. Yeah, it's assumed that he killed people and the dude clearly has a kink for violence but he didn't harm anyone Bruce is close to yet (while comic Joker killed Jason etc.).
I also agree, whatever Telltale decides to do, I hope it's their decision. I hope they don't have too much pressure from either DC or the fans. I hope DC will let them do what they want with these characters. If they decided from the start that it's only friendship, without any pressure from the outside; that's cool. If they wanted there to be something more I hope they're brave enough to do it.
OK, just one more reply with slight comic offtopic and that would be all what I wanted to say…
I can agree that the ‘canon’ term is fuzzy and wide and up to interpretation. How I understand it, the canon story is the one which is considered by majority of readers, that it really took place in current iteration of Batman universe, as opposite to the stories that got ‘outdated’ by issues published later or the ones written intentionally to be off-canon from the start.
And as I said before and as you mentioned as well, canon changes with time, what is happening in the comics right now is considered to be 'canonical' at this moment, may be retconed later on. The Earth 2 was a canon for some time, up until they decided they do not know where they want to go with it and that it would be better to just ignore it existed.
And it does not mean that writers have to follow all the time the same paths - how I see it, the events which Batmans is facing, his background may change, even his character may slightly differ (and slightly is the keyword here), but there are still some principles that are staying mostly unchanged for decades. And it is mostly about the Batman himself, like the thing that he is not killing, he is not using the guns, he is always facing some kind of loneliness (at least at some point), the pivotal point in his life is always the death of his parents. There is always Alfred by his side, as well as Robin(s), Gordon, Selina… he is facing Joker, Poison Ivy, Two Face… The most important characters in the Batman universe returns with smaller or bigger changes in all the iterations, but their main attributes and principles stays the same. That is why I have no bigger problem with Thomas Wayne being a criminal because it is just a backstory, I have no problem with seeing this new take on Joker and Batman by Telltale (it is awesomely written), because as for now there is nothing in there that would go drastically against the things that I consider canon from the comics. And it is good to see Batman facing new situations, like the one which is probably the most difficult for him now in the comics – the promise of some kind of happy life in which he is still somehow lost.
If Bruce would suddenly started killing without remorse I would pass, if he would start forming relationships with psychopaths and murderers I would pass as well, and I would pass if his orientation would be changed or he would be retconed to be a woman after few decades of stories in which I saw the main character being a heterosexual man. That is why a lot of comic fans felt like it was wrong that Batman played by Affleck is using guns or killing without second thought… because Batman does not do this.
I am sure that there are people in DC who are responsible for keeping some kind of consistency in this universe. Of course some writers are experimenting within some boundaries and that is ok, because time will tell if their take on Batman will stay as a part of the 'wide canon' or be just considered a ‘what if’ kind of story.
This is my understanding of the canon events. If in the future comics there would be events that I would feel to be too far away from the image of Batman which I build for myself basing on the source material so far, I would just pretend it did not happened and wait for the next retcon which would happen sooner or later. As for now, nothing like that happened.
It turned into the comic offtopic right now on my part, so sorry about that. I just wanted to sum up my explanation why for me this ‘ship’ mentioned in the title of this thread will never be acceptable. I am against the idea of any kind of relationship between Batman and John other than them being arch enemies, purely because of how I perceive the source material which is in the roots of all the other iterations.
That is ok Gartives. I understand that Batman has already a "canon"... or better put a "widespread" interpretation in many people's minds. M… morey point is, that in reality this concept "canon" is not real. Because in real life no one is there to govern your imagination, not the writers, nor corporations, the only ones who does that is ourselves.
Even the writers themselves in any medium don't take the "canon" as an absolute rule at all. Because, what would be the point of making the same thing over and over again? Each time a writer takes on Batman, you are actually reading that writer's own interpretation of the character, there isn't a defining rule in how the character is going to be represented.
Even the fundamentals of Batman can be shaken, an example; Thomas in this universe is a ganster, or a criminal. Another example, is giving Batman a happy ending, which I believe is what is happening in the current Rebirth comics. Is that Batman?… [view original content]
Hello there !
I am of those who think you can't possibly decide your character's sexuality in a Telltale games if the options available op… morepose that decision. I would never say my Bruce could be asexual, even if I didn't choose to have sex with Selina. It's simply not a mass effect. I played enough Telltale games to know that characters romance can somehow show, but I think it might be that Selina's feelings for Bruce are canon and other characters see it ( Alfred and John ). I don't have a problem with it personnaly as I find their relationship interesting.
However, let's imagine if John was a romance option and reflect about what you guys seem to be worried about.
What exactly would change in John's behavior as a romantic option from the optional best friend we already have ?
John doe already confesses his feelings for Bruce pretty regularly. What would the romance destroy there ?
He will say that Bruce makes his heart race ... m… [view original content]
You can't compare this to the threads like "Alfred romance" and "Bane romance" because those are obviously parodies. We're not joking when we say that we would enjoy a romance option with John because this didn't just come out of nowhere.
I don't see Bane getting any "are you in love with me?" options in episode 2.
Speaking of which: John remembered that question so I'm wondering if it's going to be addressed again like other little moments he remembered.
You can't compare this to the threads like "Alfred romance" and "Bane romance" because those are obviously parodies. We're not joking when w… moree say that we would enjoy a romance option with John because this didn't just come out of nowhere.
I don't see Bane getting any "are you in love with me?" options in episode 2.
Speaking of which: John remembered that question so I'm wondering if it's going to be addressed again like other little moments he remembered.
This is no better than a parody or a fanfaction. Anyway you're really going to take that option as proof. I mean first of all John says no and Bruce is uncomfortably asking that so that doesn't indicate any romance.
You can't compare this to the threads like "Alfred romance" and "Bane romance" because those are obviously parodies. We're not joking when w… moree say that we would enjoy a romance option with John because this didn't just come out of nowhere.
I don't see Bane getting any "are you in love with me?" options in episode 2.
Speaking of which: John remembered that question so I'm wondering if it's going to be addressed again like other little moments he remembered.
Look you can not like this, that's fine. You can deny it all day but the fact is that if this idea was so out of reach that option wouldn't be there. Bruce had legit reasons to ask it because before he knew Harley existed, he was - to his knowledge - the only person John seemed to be clinging onto. And John answered with a no, that's true. But he gave it some thought. It wasn't treated as "ahahahaha Bruce, you silly man. Of course not.". And Bruce sounded unsure when he was asking the question not like someone who would be playing a mean joke on his friend.
In the same episode John said "Bruce is strong, smart and handsome ... like super handsome, it's nuts you guys!". Yeah maybe the later one was meant more as a light joke from the writers part because John is a quirky dude but you can see why people would like this paring and give it more consideration. And the running joke is that the bypassers think they're a gay couple (the woman seeing them pinky swear and the guy on the date hearing John yell "Why won't you love me?!" into Bruce's face while clutching his jacket). Of course there are plenty more of examples that have been pointed out in this thread before.
So yeah, you can disagree with the option all you want, but people didn't just pull this idea out of nowhere. It cannot be compared to shit like the "hurrdurrr this is the same as if we wanted to romance Bane". No. It's not.
This is no better than a parody or a fanfaction. Anyway you're really going to take that option as proof. I mean first of all John says no and Bruce is uncomfortably asking that so that doesn't indicate any romance.
It is out of nowhere. You're just using a few dialogue options. Also I said Bruce sounded unsure and uncomfortable not playing a mean joke(Which is not what I said). It makes no sense ans it shouldn't happen.
Look you can not like this, that's fine. You can deny it all day but the fact is that if this idea was so out of reach that option wouldn't … morebe there. Bruce had legit reasons to ask it because before he knew Harley existed, he was - to his knowledge - the only person John seemed to be clinging onto. And John answered with a no, that's true. But he gave it some thought. It wasn't treated as "ahahahaha Bruce, you silly man. Of course not.". And Bruce sounded unsure when he was asking the question not like someone who would be playing a mean joke on his friend.
In the same episode John said "Bruce is strong, smart and handsome ... like super handsome, it's nuts you guys!". Yeah maybe the later one was meant more as a light joke from the writers part because John is a quirky dude but you can see why people would like this paring and give it more consideration. And the running joke is that the bypassers think they're a gay couple (the woman seei… [view original content]
This discussion thread is different from 'Alfred and Bane' as those were joke threads/meme threads. If anything is clear regarding the ' How would you feel about a John Doe romance ' thread, it's that the participants for, against, or neutral on the subject are both quite serious and passionate about their views.
I can agree that the discussion does at times go in circles, but I've found some pretty interesting points being made. JmoooX just added an interpretation to John remembering the 'are you in love with me' line that I honestly had never considered. While it didn't appear to me that Bruce was making fun of him, and seemed concerned that it might be the case -- that Joker would think he was mocking him in that moment is an interesting perspective that has merit.
This is no better than a parody or a fanfaction. Anyway you're really going to take that option as proof. I mean first of all John says no and Bruce is uncomfortably asking that so that doesn't indicate any romance.
"You're just using a few dialogue options", um ... this is what this game is about? The game literally reminds you to be mindful about your choices. And this was one that John remembered. The joke part I was refering to the post above. There is basis for this paring, if it should or shouldn't happen is only up to the creators themselves.
Also there is more dialogue than just these quick examples that I gave from the top of my head. They were mentioned before but everything that's mentioned about this topic is dismissed and denied anyway (even with literal screenshots from the game saying otherwise) so I'm kind of too tired to write a whole essay with them because it won't make any difference. Even if I was someone who didn't like this paring I would see why others saw it as a possibility. And if John (or Bruce) was a female character my feelings wouldn't change, this isn't about me wanting it just because "I want the gay". I truly think these two characters have amazing chemistry that's complex, exciting and interesting. And as mentioned somewhere before Joker and Batman being lovers is actually a thing in Flashpoint Paradox with Bruce's parents in those roles.
It is out of nowhere. You're just using a few dialogue options. Also I said Bruce sounded unsure and uncomfortable not playing a mean joke(Which is not what I said). It makes no sense ans it shouldn't happen.
Thanks for stating the obvious. Of course this game is mostly dialogue,choices and animations. You're just clutching at straws to make your point. There's no clear basis whatsoever. Just because you "want it" or "interpret it" that way doesn't mean it is.
"You're just using a few dialogue options", um ... this is what this game is about? The game literally reminds you to be mindful about your … morechoices. And this was one that John remembered. The joke part I was refering to the post above. There is basis for this paring, if it should or shouldn't happen is only up to the creators themselves.
Also there is more dialogue than just these quick examples that I gave from the top of my head. They were mentioned before but everything that's mentioned about this topic is dismissed and denied anyway (even with literal screenshots from the game saying otherwise) so I'm kind of too tired to write a whole essay with them because it won't make any difference. Even if I was someone who didn't like this paring I would see why others saw it as a possibility. And if John (or Bruce) was a female character my feelings wouldn't change, this isn't about me wanting it just because "I want the gay". I truly think th… [view original content]
This discussion thread is different from 'Alfred and Bane' as those were joke threads/meme threads. If anything is clear regarding the ' How… more would you feel about a John Doe romance ' thread, it's that the participants for, against, or neutral on the subject are both quite serious and passionate about their views.
I can agree that the discussion does at times go in circles, but I've found some pretty interesting points being made. JmoooX just added an interpretation to John remembering the 'are you in love with me' line that I honestly had never considered. While it didn't appear to me that Bruce was making fun of him, and seemed concerned that it might be the case -- that Joker would think he was mocking him in that moment is an interesting perspective that has merit.
Some people see dolphins inside the bottle, some people see a couple making love. Both interpretations are valid.
Same with Batman /Joker, both interpretations are valid. We already argued that art is a medium about interpretations.
"You're just using a few dialogue options", um ... this is what this game is about? The game literally reminds you to be mindful about your … morechoices. And this was one that John remembered. The joke part I was refering to the post above. There is basis for this paring, if it should or shouldn't happen is only up to the creators themselves.
Also there is more dialogue than just these quick examples that I gave from the top of my head. They were mentioned before but everything that's mentioned about this topic is dismissed and denied anyway (even with literal screenshots from the game saying otherwise) so I'm kind of too tired to write a whole essay with them because it won't make any difference. Even if I was someone who didn't like this paring I would see why others saw it as a possibility. And if John (or Bruce) was a female character my feelings wouldn't change, this isn't about me wanting it just because "I want the gay". I truly think th… [view original content]
Some people see dolphins inside the bottle, some people see a couple making love. Both interpretations are valid.
Same with Batman /Joker, both interpretations are valid. We already argued that art is a medium about interpretations.
And not everything is set in stone. Any good storyteller knows to leave stuff for the imagination and for the viewers to interpret. Is called ambiguity. You have your interpretation and nothing is gonna take that away from you. Your mind is yours, not the writer's.
Well I wouldn't be stating the obvious if you didn't act like a canon option that has happened in the game is basically nothing and that we should compare this well developed relationship to something idiotic like Bruce dating Bane. Again you're free to dislike and disagree with this theory but it would not exist if there wasn't some kind of basis for it in the first place. Even the VA talked about John's feelings for Bruce in a way that didn't just sound like friendship.
(2:31 to 3:12, 12:46 - 12:54)
Also this is more of joke thing but here we have Troy yelling "kiss him!" twice:
(1:12:35 - 1:12:40) which means that even if in a joking manner, the idea must've crossed his mind lol.
These are not "straws", these are written and acted dialogue options that were put there with thought. The writers don't just put this kind of stuff in for shits and giggles, especially not with topics that can be sensitive to both sides of the debate. But hey, lets not get too political here. And no, we don't have a canon confirmation that this theory is true (the way we do with the option for Selina for example), that's why this thread exists in the first place.
Anyway. I'm too tired to keep discussing this. In the end it's a videogame and what happens is out of our hands. TLDR: You don't want it, I do. It probably won't happen because the characters are DC's biggest cashcows which means that it's too risky whether the writers want to or not. That's that.
Thanks for stating the obvious. Of course this game is mostly dialogue,choices and animations. You're just clutching at straws to make your … morepoint. There's no clear basis whatsoever. Just because you "want it" or "interpret it" that way doesn't mean it is.
It may not seem like it, but I do understand your point of view on it. I'd actually more strongly agree with you if the thread had been made as ' Will Iman Avesta and Bruce Wayne have some potential romance ' thread. The basis for the thread is in how it's phrased -- how would you feel about -- regardless of whether there is or isn't one, should or shouldn't be : Just how would you feel about it?
It's a dangerous topic to discuss someone's feelings as it's almost guaranteed that at some point that passion behind those emotions are going to tip the scales into arguments. I'm actually quite delighted that the thread has lasted as long as it has, although I haven't participated much in it. Seeing other people's perspectives on certain instances has really opened my eyes into how other players perceive things.
The writers flirt with the notion of it themselves, making light fun moments out of them. Bruce having the option to ask John about it directly with a hesitant, delicate approach as if he's afraid of the answer -- a coffee mock date while discussing Harley asking Bruce to take on Harley's role. It's made for a great narrative that I'm actually going to miss going into the final act. However they were interpreted by the fans, most found those to be a fun moment of awkwardness.
I think at points the thread has gone off topic and that's taken things into that heated territory, but does it lose it's merit in expressing how you would feel if there were an optional romance included in the game and analyzing both the moments in the game that you enjoyed with some of those aspects as well as the history of Batman himself?
I find myself seeing both sides of the discussion a lot better having read through nearly all of them. I think a serious take on the romance brings up some fears in others that those light-hearted fun moments might become something very uncomfortable for them if the writers tried to insert that romance option. It brings up some excellent insight in how people felt about how the CatWoman romance was approached, and how that affected the dialogue even with it being optional. That has some excellent merit when looking at Season One by itself, which I applaud the staff for improving upon in Season Two.
And not everything is set in stone. Any good storyteller knows to leave stuff for the imagination and for the viewers to interpret. Is calle… mored ambiguity. You have your interpretation and nothing is gonna take that away from you. Your mind is yours, not the writer's.
It may not seem like it, but I do understand your point of view on it. I'd actually more strongly agree with you if the thread had been made… more as ' Will Iman Avesta and Bruce Wayne have some potential romance ' thread. The basis for the thread is in how it's phrased -- how would you feel about -- regardless of whether there is or isn't one, should or shouldn't be : Just how would you feel about it?
It's a dangerous topic to discuss someone's feelings as it's almost guaranteed that at some point that passion behind those emotions are going to tip the scales into arguments. I'm actually quite delighted that the thread has lasted as long as it has, although I haven't participated much in it. Seeing other people's perspectives on certain instances has really opened my eyes into how other players perceive things.
The writers flirt with the notion of it themselves, making light fun moments out of them. Bruce having the option to ask John about … [view original content]
Yes, we already argued this. And it has already been said that in this game people can feel differently about the same things, because each one of us is different. Otherwise, there wouldn't exist the fan theories and speculations in the forums, with each person having their own understending of plot, character motivations and possible outcomes.
Don't dis the ships if you can't dish the dis! Haha, jk... it's actually pretty accurate. Its why I sunk with Franks boat. Cause deep down, I knew... they was all gonna be sinkin.
id love to see a john/bruce romance personally. even if its not 100% an option, just some implied more-than-friendship stuff would be nice. im begging for scraps here telltale, ill take anything at this point.. i know its not for everyone, thats why having it be completely ///Optional/// would obviously be the way to go. if you never saw anything romantic between them, then youd probably never even run across the option. this is such a different dynamic for batman and joker anyway, why not explore as many different angles of it as we can? this is probably the friendliest theyve ever been with each other, if a batman/joker romance were to exist in any media i think this game is definitely the place for it. no batman comic would ever go that far, but this game? i can totally see it.
How come John gets his own romance thread but us Bane & Mr Freeze shippers got ours shut down. A Mr Freeze and Bruce ship is just as possible as John after you helped Freeze in the last episode. I think the moderators have some bias towards a possible John Doe ship lmao.
Hey guys, some of the other mods and I were looking over this thread, and we'd like to ask that discussion get back on track please.
The … moreoriginal thread was just focused on discussing an optional romance in the story, but it seems that the thread has derailed into a discussion about general sexuality in video games, as well as arguments and accusations about controversial comments relating to sexuality and if one supports certain stances.
We're cleaning up some of the posts that derailed the thread, so that the discussion can stay on topic.
If/When you guys see arguments or users trolling/getting argumentative/derailing the thread, please flag posts instead of engaging in the argument. Thanks for helping us out in doing so.
How come John gets his own romance thread but us Bane & Mr Freeze shippers got ours shut down. A Mr Freeze and Bruce ship is just as pos… moresible as John after you helped Freeze in the last episode. I think the moderators have some bias towards a possible John Doe ship lmao.
Comments
I think many fans of the paring does.
Also, what you say about giving John the chance to heal from Bruce perspective sounds great. In the Killing Joke you already see Batman trying at least to stop their fight by saying "let me help you, we don't have to end killing each other."
I would like to see somthing similar in this game too. I think that, having already established a relationship with John would make it more powerful.
What I'm doing with my mental issues is none of your concern, since I haven't decided to talk more about it. However, you might be "happy" to know that I'm getting help, proper help, and it's a support I do need. A support I wouldn't have if I was just in prison or, I dunno, killed.
I'm not treating mentally ill people as "misunderstood puppy dog", because it's more complicated than that. And it's also more complicated than your "we should just kill them" take. It's difficult to realize how much society is ableist (and how this ableism can be damaging to mentally ill people and lead to tragic outcomes) when you're on the "good side" of the barrier.
I'll take John Doe's case as an example : if Waller hasn't intervened when Bruce decided to trust him, then things could have been better. Maybe Bruce would have been able to earn enough trust from John Doe to get him to accept to be helped properly (and not in the Arkham way, where they're basically just letting them roam around like animals in a zoo). Maybe things could have had an happy ending, with romance or not, which we're pretty much guaranteed to not get right now.
You need to educate yourself about mental illness/neurodivergence and the way it's poorly handled, in media or IRL. It's a real problem with real consequences (like policemen killing mentally ill teenagers because they're displaying an "abnormal" behavior and those men, not trained properly, are immediately going into a "fight or flight" reaction).
Yeah, by the way, I read a pretty interesting fanfic with John Doe actually accepting to get help at the end of Killing Joke, instead of the ambiguous ending we got. I didn't think it was "forcing" the Bruce Wayne/Joker, but, on the contrary, it was a slow building and a pretty nice deconstruction of the way mentally ill characters are usually treated in the bat-universe.
I do not see a point posting in this tread as it is going in circles, but I just can't stop myself from doing so...
Many mentioned it before me, and it didn’t convince the unconvinced, but I will say what I think anyway.
There was never any confirmation nor evidence that Bruce in comics had any kind of romantic feelings for another man. People defending romance between Bruce and Joker as taking place in the comics are just making assumptions basing on their own perception of these stories- nothing wrong with having their own opinions, but they are not an evidence. The fact is that there was NEVER any ROMANCE between Batman and Joker (there was only Joker's obsession towards Batman).
That is true, that there are many comic stories that take different approaches on different characters in comics, but the most twisted ones (like Batman becoming a villain and Joker a hero) were never intended to be considered a cannon, they are just ‘what ifs’. And as far as I know, in DC, comics are cannon up until the following comics would not dismiss something written before. So the truth is, there is a canon story, it changes in time, but it is there (with crutial plot points staying unchanged for decades). Bruce had many romances (always with women), he has a biological son, he is getting married (with a woman) – these are the facts, this is the canon. And the game was, as for now, compatible with this canon. I would be extremely disappointed if it would break it.
I am definitelly against the idea of any kind of romance between Bruce and John, because I want Bruce from the game to stay as close to the comic book original Bruce as possible.
And the most important think I would like to say...
I hope writers would continue to do their awesome job with focusing on the main points of the story they want to tell, WITHOUT any special changes applied only because of requests from people on the forum. I want to see what Telltale wants to tell us, not experience the one big fan-service game.
I disagree with some of what you just said, but I agree on one point : whatever you have decided Telltale, romance or not, do what you think is right and proper for your story. I'd be really happy if a romance option was possible, but I'd accept it as well if it's not there.
Just, please... If it is THERE in your idea right now... don't take it away because you're doubting after having reading some posts on this thread. If you don't plan to make it real, fine, but I certainly hope you won't back away after reading this if it was your primary plan.
I believe Telltale cares for the stories they tell as much, or more as we, the fans. If there are any ideas they are doubting - that maybe these doubts have a reason and are worth thinking over. There are certain decisions that may be applauded by a vocal few, but may result in many others being highly disappointed.
And I am sure, the whole community on this forum is only a small percentage of overall number of players. Always the most controversial threads have the highest post/view rate. It does not mean that these threads anyhow represents what most of the players thinks. Feedback is always good, but it is only it - opinions from few people who have time to write here.
Let's just let Telltale do their job not disturbed, with no pressure.
You have good points. But I would argue that indicating anything as "canon" is like walking on ice. There is in reality no such thing as canon. If there was "canon" DC wouldn't have wiped their "canon" with the new 52 and then they wouldn't have wiped again that "canon" with Rebirth. Grant Morrison says that Batman is "very, very gay". Frank Miller says Batman isn't gay but he wrote Joker gay, and that they are traped in an "homophobic nightmare". Then Neal Adams says that he dosen't see Joker as anything but gay and so on and on.
The truth is, you are dealing with art. Art is a medium about interpretations and symbolism, is not mathematics, is not physics, is not the law of gravity. Is something that is continually flowing and changing and it adapts with the changes in culture and society.
Homoeroticism is in the Batman lore. Some people dosen't see it, some does. Some sees Batman as heroic, some think he is a sociopath. Selina is bisexual in the comics. She wasn't like that 20 years ago. Harley is bisexual in the comics, she wasn't like that in the original series. Bruce, may change too, we don't know that.
About the many posts that were showing the supposedly "romance" in the comics.... I won't say is romance more that I would say that the dynamic is treated as such symbolically, it dosen't make Batman and Joker be literaly "in love" with each other more than it may be the intention of some of the artists to create a feeling of terror and obssesion; a fatal affair.
This Bruce is not as close as the "canon" one as you may think. I would ask in which canon? The canon from Frank Miller? canon from Grant Morrison?, he is not even close to the canon of the animatied series. Batman is mostly cold and calculating, he would have said to Amanda Waller to f*** up and would have gone after The Pact ages ago. He wouldn't have infiltrated them and risked to expose his identity. But this Bruce does, and he is no less great or less heroic. And he is far more emotionally balanced than "canon" Bruce is.
Guys, another mod reminder here - stick to the topic at hand. While some of the issues are indeed important in the real-world, it's starting to verge on political, which we decided to purge ourselves of because of the hostility that incurred because of it. So please, focus on the actual purpose of the thread and keep it cool, you hear? I really don't want to lock this thread, which has produced some very interesting points.
You missed this one on your post.
I hope polite discussion on the comics stories as a background in regard to Joker / Batman relationship is still on topic in this thread. (If no, dear Moderators, please let me know).
The thing is, there are some things that may be interpreted differently by every reader and on the other hand there are some events, dialogs that are just facts and can’t been denied. There were never any evidence in comics that Batman is in love with Joker (but there are plain evidences that he was/is in love with a woman). I understand that people see the ‘art’ trough their own experiences, believes. We probably have to accept that there will be always different point of views on this matter. Everyone has the right to see whatever they want to see in these comics. But I will stay unconvinced – I think this romance was never there - I never saw it there, fellow comic readers with whom I talked never saw it there.
Morrison, whom you are referring to, clarified later on, that what he said in that interview was exactly the opposite and it was misinterpreted. And he is also considered to be provocative, so I would not take seriously what he said as any reference. Grant, who was a writer of Batman for over ten years, said he never saw Batman as gay. He also said that the writers back to Kane never wrote Batman as gay. As for Joker, I would not bet here, as I said he was definitely obsessed with Batman, maybe he was intended by some writers to be homosexual, but still it does not change the fact that Batman was not, so there is no way to talk about a romance.
DC retcons their previous storyline just because they try to make the ‘canon’ events less messy, but it does not mean that the New 52 or Rebirth automatically deprecates everything that was written before – it is just that the events from the new, ongoing series are ‘overriding’ what was written before in the places where the old storylines collide with the new ones.
Still, it is ok to disagree. Just, for me, the idea of Batman having a romance with Joker has no support in any evidence in the comic plotline. For me this ‘ship’ is so abstract, that it is just something I would not like to see happening.
And about the ‘in game’ Bruce compared to the one in comics, I perfectly well know the differences, still they do not break what most comics readers see as the canon. Bruce in the game is less grumpy, less brooding, more talkative, probably more expressive. But on the other hand, he is just a rookie, ha has time to become the brooding, depressing Batman
That is ok Gartives. I understand that Batman has already a "canon"... or better put a "widespread" interpretation in many people's minds. My point is, that in reality this concept "canon" is not real. Because in real life no one is there to govern your imagination, not the writers, nor corporations, the only ones who does that is ourselves.
Even the writers themselves in any medium don't take the "canon" as an absolute rule at all. Because, what would be the point of making the same thing over and over again? Each time a writer takes on Batman, you are actually reading that writer's own interpretation of the character, there isn't a defining rule in how the character is going to be represented.
Even the fundamentals of Batman can be shaken, an example; Thomas in this universe is a ganster, or a criminal. Another example, is giving Batman a happy ending, which I believe is what is happening in the current Rebirth comics. Is that Batman? Many say he can't get married, he can't have a happy ending because at his core Batman is a tragic character and the real "canon Batman" is a sad person. But how true is that?
Adam West was the canon Batman of his time. And the Golden Age comics Batman was the canon of its time. Brooding, angry Batman is the canon of our time. DC trying to include everything as "canon" is actually, I think, a way to acknowledge legacity in their own history as publisher, and because of the fans own demands. But imagine the trouble it causes to the writers, it kind of limits their freedom to tell stories.
And as you mentioned the wierd, evil "love affair" between Batman and Joker is very, very abstract. I never said is was actual romantic love. Some posts about this have mentioned it. Is completely symbolic. And I don't think is meant to be a sort of "endaring love" more than something meant to bring that kind of horror thing. People find this interesting and one of the reasons they like the Batman/Joker dynamic over other typical hero and villan one.
I think you might need to branch out a little bit in fiction, Batman, Daredevil, Punisher, X-Men characters, Spider Man, and even Superman in some ways all suffer from a certain kind of mental illness one way or the other depending on the writer. Narcissism and lack of empathy for people are usually the types of mental illness given to villains because those are far from positive traits. Thanks for twisting my words, I never said, “We should just kill them.” I’m presenting the situation where a “cure” seems nigh impossible, I have known someone who has been to rehab over four times and every time this person comes out, they end up making the exact same mistakes and fail to amend their personal problems despite the fact everyone around this person has done everything to help them to no avail. Sometimes in real life, people just can’t get help and that always sucks.
Forgive me if I’m not a fan of sugarcoating and treating mental illness or any other disability like it’s no big deal and you’re just special all the way and just have misunderstood gifts. That’s my piece so of the gay romance option is there, don’t get annoyed if I say I didn’t choose because I thought it was stupid.
My special interests lies in pop culture in general and I spend most of my time watching, playing and getting information from and about various media, so I'm kinda aware of this stuff.
"Lack of empathy" as a "villain trait" is kinda iffy for me, because lack or too much of empathy is pretty much an autistic trait and it's always treated as "making someone automatically bad" when it's more of a "I don't always know how to relate to people when it's a situation I didn't experienced myself".
It's not about "sugarcoating" mental illness or neurodivergence, especially since I'm myself both of them and I'm also an online activist for neurodiversity. It's about offering proper care to people who would only get worse, sometimes to the point of suicide, in jail where this help isn't always provided.
I won't get annoyed if you didn't pick the "gay romance option", as you said. I'll only be annoyed if you use homophobic wording or if you might be mean to people who chose this option. If this option even exists, of course.
I don't see the point of getting angry at someone for choosing to do something or not in a video game. It's a video game with the idea of roleplaying a character in a way that suits you and in the limitations that the game has set up for you.
After all, my Bigby was a pretty bad person, with some good sides. Someone coming at me to tell me that my way of playing him is wrong would make no sense.
My Bruce pursuing a "romantic" relationship, like I said before, wouldn't be more "legit" or "better" or whatever than your Bruce not doing so.
Someone wrote that DC would never allow Telltale to make their iconic characters like Bruce and Joker offically gay. (Though I see Bruce being bisexual and Joker gay, but y'know details.) And even though I love the idea of romance, I think they're right. I think the company would be too afraid of the backlash for something like this to happen, even if it's only optional. But then again, they allowed the show Gotham to make Penguin have feelings for Riddler so y'know ... maybe there is a small precent of a chance that it could happen. Also as it was mentioned before; Harley, Selina and even Diana were revealed to be bisexual, so why is it so hard to believe that perhaps a make-up wearing, often flamboyant and crossdressing clown that has an obsession with a man dressed up as a bat could perhaps not be as straight as people believe? Even before I got really into Batman/DC and I didn't care for any of this stuff, I always just assumed Joker was gay from the glimpses of media I've seen here and there. I mean even if you disagree on Joker's sexuality, you gotta admit to the outsider this can seem a bit gay. And in early years a lot of villains possessed stereotypical gay traits (anyone remembers cartoon network shows with Him from Powerpuff girls and Red guy from Cow & Chicken?) because they were seen as a bad thing and were meant to make you uncomftrable.
There's a lot of discussion about Bruce's feelings in the comics and I think that for the most part I see the Batman/Joker dynamic as an one-sided love from Joker's side and a weird attachment from Batman's (even though he'd deny it to his grave, but he still saves Joker many times and for example seemed heartbroken when the clown died in Arkham City). But in this game I feel like that for the first time it could be mutual because these are different versions of Batman and Joker and John didn't do anything too horrible (yet) for Bruce to nope out of it. Yeah, it's assumed that he killed people and the dude clearly has a kink for violence but he didn't harm anyone Bruce is close to yet (while comic Joker killed Jason etc.).
I also agree, whatever Telltale decides to do, I hope it's their decision. I hope they don't have too much pressure from either DC or the fans. I hope DC will let them do what they want with these characters. If they decided from the start that it's only friendship, without any pressure from the outside; that's cool. If they wanted there to be something more I hope they're brave enough to do it.
OK, just one more reply with slight comic offtopic and that would be all what I wanted to say…
I can agree that the ‘canon’ term is fuzzy and wide and up to interpretation. How I understand it, the canon story is the one which is considered by majority of readers, that it really took place in current iteration of Batman universe, as opposite to the stories that got ‘outdated’ by issues published later or the ones written intentionally to be off-canon from the start.
And as I said before and as you mentioned as well, canon changes with time, what is happening in the comics right now is considered to be 'canonical' at this moment, may be retconed later on. The Earth 2 was a canon for some time, up until they decided they do not know where they want to go with it and that it would be better to just ignore it existed.
And it does not mean that writers have to follow all the time the same paths - how I see it, the events which Batmans is facing, his background may change, even his character may slightly differ (and slightly is the keyword here), but there are still some principles that are staying mostly unchanged for decades. And it is mostly about the Batman himself, like the thing that he is not killing, he is not using the guns, he is always facing some kind of loneliness (at least at some point), the pivotal point in his life is always the death of his parents. There is always Alfred by his side, as well as Robin(s), Gordon, Selina… he is facing Joker, Poison Ivy, Two Face… The most important characters in the Batman universe returns with smaller or bigger changes in all the iterations, but their main attributes and principles stays the same. That is why I have no bigger problem with Thomas Wayne being a criminal because it is just a backstory, I have no problem with seeing this new take on Joker and Batman by Telltale (it is awesomely written), because as for now there is nothing in there that would go drastically against the things that I consider canon from the comics. And it is good to see Batman facing new situations, like the one which is probably the most difficult for him now in the comics – the promise of some kind of happy life in which he is still somehow lost.
If Bruce would suddenly started killing without remorse I would pass, if he would start forming relationships with psychopaths and murderers I would pass as well, and I would pass if his orientation would be changed or he would be retconed to be a woman after few decades of stories in which I saw the main character being a heterosexual man. That is why a lot of comic fans felt like it was wrong that Batman played by Affleck is using guns or killing without second thought… because Batman does not do this.
I am sure that there are people in DC who are responsible for keeping some kind of consistency in this universe. Of course some writers are experimenting within some boundaries and that is ok, because time will tell if their take on Batman will stay as a part of the 'wide canon' or be just considered a ‘what if’ kind of story.
This is my understanding of the canon events. If in the future comics there would be events that I would feel to be too far away from the image of Batman which I build for myself basing on the source material so far, I would just pretend it did not happened and wait for the next retcon which would happen sooner or later. As for now, nothing like that happened.
It turned into the comic offtopic right now on my part, so sorry about that. I just wanted to sum up my explanation why for me this ‘ship’ mentioned in the title of this thread will never be acceptable. I am against the idea of any kind of relationship between Batman and John other than them being arch enemies, purely because of how I perceive the source material which is in the roots of all the other iterations.
This is going in circles and as someone said above is no better than the closed threads about the "Alfred romance" or "Bane romance" threads.
"Get over it" really? Way to prove your point. And this is a different kettle of fish compared to Thomas Wayne being a criminal.
You can't compare this to the threads like "Alfred romance" and "Bane romance" because those are obviously parodies. We're not joking when we say that we would enjoy a romance option with John because this didn't just come out of nowhere.
I don't see Bane getting any "are you in love with me?" options in episode 2.
Speaking of which: John remembered that question so I'm wondering if it's going to be addressed again like other little moments he remembered.
I think that He remembered, that Bruce was making fun of Him, but feel free to interpret it in Your own way.
This is no better than a parody or a fanfaction. Anyway you're really going to take that option as proof. I mean first of all John says no and Bruce is uncomfortably asking that so that doesn't indicate any romance.
Look you can not like this, that's fine. You can deny it all day but the fact is that if this idea was so out of reach that option wouldn't be there. Bruce had legit reasons to ask it because before he knew Harley existed, he was - to his knowledge - the only person John seemed to be clinging onto. And John answered with a no, that's true. But he gave it some thought. It wasn't treated as "ahahahaha Bruce, you silly man. Of course not.". And Bruce sounded unsure when he was asking the question not like someone who would be playing a mean joke on his friend.
In the same episode John said "Bruce is strong, smart and handsome ... like super handsome, it's nuts you guys!". Yeah maybe the later one was meant more as a light joke from the writers part because John is a quirky dude but you can see why people would like this paring and give it more consideration. And the running joke is that the bypassers think they're a gay couple (the woman seeing them pinky swear and the guy on the date hearing John yell "Why won't you love me?!" into Bruce's face while clutching his jacket). Of course there are plenty more of examples that have been pointed out in this thread before.
So yeah, you can disagree with the option all you want, but people didn't just pull this idea out of nowhere. It cannot be compared to shit like the "hurrdurrr this is the same as if we wanted to romance Bane". No. It's not.
It is out of nowhere. You're just using a few dialogue options. Also I said Bruce sounded unsure and uncomfortable not playing a mean joke(Which is not what I said). It makes no sense ans it shouldn't happen.
This discussion thread is different from 'Alfred and Bane' as those were joke threads/meme threads. If anything is clear regarding the ' How would you feel about a John Doe romance ' thread, it's that the participants for, against, or neutral on the subject are both quite serious and passionate about their views.
I can agree that the discussion does at times go in circles, but I've found some pretty interesting points being made. JmoooX just added an interpretation to John remembering the 'are you in love with me' line that I honestly had never considered. While it didn't appear to me that Bruce was making fun of him, and seemed concerned that it might be the case -- that Joker would think he was mocking him in that moment is an interesting perspective that has merit.
"You're just using a few dialogue options", um ... this is what this game is about? The game literally reminds you to be mindful about your choices. And this was one that John remembered. The joke part I was refering to the post above. There is basis for this paring, if it should or shouldn't happen is only up to the creators themselves.
Also there is more dialogue than just these quick examples that I gave from the top of my head. They were mentioned before but everything that's mentioned about this topic is dismissed and denied anyway (even with literal screenshots from the game saying otherwise) so I'm kind of too tired to write a whole essay with them because it won't make any difference. Even if I was someone who didn't like this paring I would see why others saw it as a possibility. And if John (or Bruce) was a female character my feelings wouldn't change, this isn't about me wanting it just because "I want the gay". I truly think these two characters have amazing chemistry that's complex, exciting and interesting. And as mentioned somewhere before Joker and Batman being lovers is actually a thing in Flashpoint Paradox with Bruce's parents in those roles.
Thanks for stating the obvious. Of course this game is mostly dialogue,choices and animations. You're just clutching at straws to make your point. There's no clear basis whatsoever. Just because you "want it" or "interpret it" that way doesn't mean it is.
What I meant is there's not exactly a basis for this.
Some people see dolphins inside the bottle, some people see a couple making love. Both interpretations are valid.
Same with Batman /Joker, both interpretations are valid. We already argued that art is a medium about interpretations.
Not really as not everything is according to the player's interpretations.
And not everything is set in stone. Any good storyteller knows to leave stuff for the imagination and for the viewers to interpret. Is called ambiguity. You have your interpretation and nothing is gonna take that away from you. Your mind is yours, not the writer's.
Well I wouldn't be stating the obvious if you didn't act like a canon option that has happened in the game is basically nothing and that we should compare this well developed relationship to something idiotic like Bruce dating Bane. Again you're free to dislike and disagree with this theory but it would not exist if there wasn't some kind of basis for it in the first place. Even the VA talked about John's feelings for Bruce in a way that didn't just sound like friendship.
(2:31 to 3:12, 12:46 - 12:54)
Also this is more of joke thing but here we have Troy yelling "kiss him!" twice:
(1:12:35 - 1:12:40) which means that even if in a joking manner, the idea must've crossed his mind lol.
These are not "straws", these are written and acted dialogue options that were put there with thought. The writers don't just put this kind of stuff in for shits and giggles, especially not with topics that can be sensitive to both sides of the debate. But hey, lets not get too political here. And no, we don't have a canon confirmation that this theory is true (the way we do with the option for Selina for example), that's why this thread exists in the first place.
Anyway. I'm too tired to keep discussing this. In the end it's a videogame and what happens is out of our hands. TLDR: You don't want it, I do. It probably won't happen because the characters are DC's biggest cashcows which means that it's too risky whether the writers want to or not. That's that.
p.s.- There are always model swaps.
It may not seem like it, but I do understand your point of view on it. I'd actually more strongly agree with you if the thread had been made as ' Will Iman Avesta and Bruce Wayne have some potential romance ' thread. The basis for the thread is in how it's phrased -- how would you feel about -- regardless of whether there is or isn't one, should or shouldn't be : Just how would you feel about it?
It's a dangerous topic to discuss someone's feelings as it's almost guaranteed that at some point that passion behind those emotions are going to tip the scales into arguments. I'm actually quite delighted that the thread has lasted as long as it has, although I haven't participated much in it. Seeing other people's perspectives on certain instances has really opened my eyes into how other players perceive things.
The writers flirt with the notion of it themselves, making light fun moments out of them. Bruce having the option to ask John about it directly with a hesitant, delicate approach as if he's afraid of the answer -- a coffee mock date while discussing Harley asking Bruce to take on Harley's role. It's made for a great narrative that I'm actually going to miss going into the final act. However they were interpreted by the fans, most found those to be a fun moment of awkwardness.
I think at points the thread has gone off topic and that's taken things into that heated territory, but does it lose it's merit in expressing how you would feel if there were an optional romance included in the game and analyzing both the moments in the game that you enjoyed with some of those aspects as well as the history of Batman himself?
I find myself seeing both sides of the discussion a lot better having read through nearly all of them. I think a serious take on the romance brings up some fears in others that those light-hearted fun moments might become something very uncomfortable for them if the writers tried to insert that romance option. It brings up some excellent insight in how people felt about how the CatWoman romance was approached, and how that affected the dialogue even with it being optional. That has some excellent merit when looking at Season One by itself, which I applaud the staff for improving upon in Season Two.
Yeah but not everything is left up to the player's imagination. Otherwise everything will be ambigious and unclear to some.
Fair enough.
Yes, we already argued this. And it has already been said that in this game people can feel differently about the same things, because each one of us is different. Otherwise, there wouldn't exist the fan theories and speculations in the forums, with each person having their own understending of plot, character motivations and possible outcomes.
Me reading this thread.
Y people like ships so much mayn. Batman and Joker or Batman and Avesta is the same mayn, it's just not happenin' mayn.
Don't dis the ships if you can't dish the dis! Haha, jk... it's actually pretty accurate. Its why I sunk with Franks boat. Cause deep down, I knew... they was all gonna be sinkin.
So nice of Joker on making that phone call to save Batman's identity. Money isn't an issue.
id love to see a john/bruce romance personally. even if its not 100% an option, just some implied more-than-friendship stuff would be nice. im begging for scraps here telltale, ill take anything at this point.. i know its not for everyone, thats why having it be completely ///Optional/// would obviously be the way to go. if you never saw anything romantic between them, then youd probably never even run across the option. this is such a different dynamic for batman and joker anyway, why not explore as many different angles of it as we can? this is probably the friendliest theyve ever been with each other, if a batman/joker romance were to exist in any media i think this game is definitely the place for it. no batman comic would ever go that far, but this game? i can totally see it.
How come John gets his own romance thread but us Bane & Mr Freeze shippers got ours shut down. A Mr Freeze and Bruce ship is just as possible as John after you helped Freeze in the last episode. I think the moderators have some bias towards a possible John Doe ship lmao.
yes.
We must fight this conspiracy.