Lilly did not care about Clem or anyone for that matter
I see some people are against the idea of Lilly being a villain because they have this belief that she was this good & caring person with one of the main points being that she cared for Clem. She shot & killed an innocent person in cold blood and robbed an RV after being given a second chance (and no, she didn't know the train would start either) & left her group that consisted of Clem (who she apparently cares for) stranded out in the open, even when you were Lee she was a bitch, didn't care that her bully of a father tried to murder you, sells you out by revealing your past and abandons you and she does this even when you had her back. Are these the actions of a good caring person? are these the actions of a good friend?
You can paint over the cracks by mentioning tiny details such as hair thingies, her smiling at Clem, watching her for 5 minutes at St John farm, the one-time interaction in Jolene's video or anytime she mentions Clem's name or ask questions about her, all that means nothing if she's cold-hearted enough to abandon her to die, in the end, her actions count more than meaningless hair ties, facial expression, questions, brief conversation and name dropping. You can blame Kenny, Carley or Ben for her actions or use her dad's death as an excuse but at the end of the day, she made the decision to commit heinous acts and she knew what she was doing and didn't seem to show any regret.
It won't matter if you treated her good or bad, no matter what choices you made with her, the outcomes always the same with her shooting an ally, selling you out and leaving you to die, so her treating Clem based on how Lee treated her means nothing. You think Lilly will be nice to Clem because Lee was nice to her? if she didn't give a shit back then, she won't give a shit now, you think Clem will overlook her murder & betrayal just because of some hair thingies? fuck no.
Lilly being against Clementine makes sense. Clem is not a little girl anymore so Lilly is not gonna be obligated to be nice to her, Clem is more hardened as a survivor and will remember what Lilly did and the people she hurt and screwed over who Clem cared about such as Lee (obviously), Kenny & his family, Ben (who Lilly tried to kill in one scenario), Doug & Carley (who saved Clem going against Lilly's order) and if Lilly is part of the raiders, you think she'll go easy on Clem if she gets in her way? she never cared about her so why would she, she already showed how aggressive & trigger happy she is when she killed one person for standing up to her(Carley), you think she'll back down if a teen will stand up to her?
So the idea of her being a villain works because of her actions in Season 1. Within 3 months, she snapped and showed that she's a dangerously unstable lunatic that gives a fuck about no one besides her dickhead dad and realistically, someone like her would become a lot worse.
Comments
Finally someone who worded what I was thinking about Lilly. Agree completely.
I’m not against her being a villain but if she’s a one-dimensional antagonist I fail to see the point of her having to be a returning character instead of some new random person.
When you say clem will remember her for the people she screwed over, I don’t think she’ll hold that against her.
7-8 years in the future, and seeing how hardened Clem is, I can’t see Clem being even the slightest upset over an RV being stolen when she was just a kid. It’s not like there were any supplies in there, it was all left behind at the motor inn. Clem never mentioned or referenced lily again after episode 3 of the first season.
Actually she did.
I’m aware that there is a dialogue option where Clem suggests that Lily should be locked up forever, but she was still a child and probably changed her opinion as she got older. I don’t know how she views Lily now, but hatred isn’t at the top. Carley and Doug were “okay” people at best, in the long run their lives would be a gray blur to Clementine, same goes for folks like Pete, Luke, Omid, Ben, etc.
Ah, I forgot about that one. How does that dialogue change if she stole the RV I wonder.
If Lilly stole the RV :
Clem : "my friend forgave her"
Alvin : "Huh."
Clem : "and then she stole our car and left us"
Alvin : "Oh."
She says “my friend forgave her. Then she stole our van and left us”
Lilly was hardly a saint, but before the RV incident, she acted according to what she believed was the right thing to do for everyone's benefit. It was only after her father's horrible death in front of her eyes, and the destruction of the motel, was when she started to behave more irrational and desperate, and understandably so.
While she didn't always agree on her father's actions and was shown to be reluctant to stand up to him, Larry really was her only living relative left to care for, so it's only natural that she would put her father's well-being at high priority.
Larry was wrong to try and kill Lee even after Lee went through the trouble of getting medicine for Larry. But from Larry's perspective, Lee was a criminal on the run from the law for committing murder, tried to pass himself off as an ordinary citizen, and had taken a random child with him to boot. Larry didn't try to kill a person for no reason, he tried to kill someone who he thought was a danger to his group.
As for Lilly's return in S4, we still don't know whether or not she will become the main villain. For all we know, Telltale is misleading the audience with the trailer and commentary.
Lilly is one of the most emotional and mentally affected character of the entire series, being a cold and calculisting villain doesn’t make any sense and is out of the character. If she the is the villain she has to be very gray and with a lot of struggles on her head.
And I am still note sure about her killing and slaving children.
You know, when I look at some of the discussions and comments in this forum lately, I get completely crazy. I mean, some people say it's good that Lilly's back and some say she shouldn't have come back. Some people say she should be the Villian but some say she should be an ally. What the fuck?!
Opinions. The word you are looking for is opinions.
Opinions are good, but when there are two opposite opinions you can't satisfy both sides. So you shouldn't really be too much serious about it if you know what I mean. Or then you will start complaining about it.
Thank god someone finally said it!
Also, she clearly hated both Ben and Carley ever since she met them. Ben because he was just "another mouth to feed" (never mind the fact she knew literally nothing of him yet and what skills he could have. He could've been in Boy Scouts and knew a lot about survival and whatever else from that, for all she knew) and Carley because in episode one at the pharmacy when Kenny starts calling out orders (because no one else was) Carley said "you got it, boss." the camera immediately cuts to Lilly glaring at Carley after that. Seriously, how petty and controlling can you get? Lilly is going to be a huge risk for Clem and AJ. My only regret for this season will be if I don't get to kill her myself. Hint, hint, Telltale! We had multiple chances to get Kenny killed, it's only fair.
I actually don't think she was smiling at Clem in the beginning of ep. 2 (if that's what you meant). I'm pretty sure she was smiling at her dad. The camera pans completely away from Clem to where it only shows Larry (and Lilly) and then the camera cuts to Lilly smiling because her dad stopped working and looks up at her. I wish the Lilly fans would stop using this as "proof" of Lilly caring about Clem. She was smiling at her dad.
I know right, I thought this forum was about memes and teenage relationship fan-fictions. To think we actually have something relevant to TWDG’s to butt heads over is truly shocking.
@iFoRias
Very sad that you quoted the arguement against you:
This is something that gets brought up to her, she never remarks on how Lily might be doing because frankly, she doesn't care! Yet she does care about Christa.
She was with christa for a year and a half and was recently seperated from her at the start of S2E1, of course she ‘cares’ more.
So you keep saying. She was cold in season 1, why doesn't it make sense that she is cold in season 4?
I ain't gonna fault Lilly for caring about her father, no one expected her not to. I am gonna fault her for expecting you to kiss her dads ass, for example, scolding you for not giving him food, you save his life and not retaliate after his attempted murder and apparently, you're an asshole for not doing him any more favors. Larry's perspective, he didn't even stop & think why an apparent dangerous criminal is risking his own life to help him, 3 months later, Larry is still a bullying asshole even if you cause no problems, not just to you but to others.
1 year, 2 years, even 10 years, not many people would forget about the person that stabbed them in the back and left them and others they care for to die especially in an apocalypse, it wouldn't exactly be a friendly reunion. RV having no supplies isn't the point, the point is her stealing the only transport that was available at the time.
How do you think she views a hostile backstabbing lunatic if it's not hate? can't be admiration? Pete, Luke & Carley saved her life, Omid helped care for her after Lee, she was good friends with Ben even going far as to stick up for him & warn him when Lilly tried to shoot him and she remembers Doug as the cool guy but will surely remember how he died saving her friend(Ben), the idea of Clem forgetting about them is highly unlikely.
I don't know why I even bothered letting the mouse near this.
Ben left Clementine to die and she still considered him a friend. His reluctance to tell the truth got Carley killed. His decision to hide the Bandits’ deal got Duck killed. All of this and she wanted Ben to stay in the group.
Clementine wanted Lily to face justice after murdering an innocent woman, and that’s all there was from her side of things on the matter. In the present day, Clementine has done far worse things. Determinantly for the most part, but regardless.
Clearly you forget things, it's us who decide, if your Clem has a grudge against Lilly she will be against or if your Clem does not have a grudge or she would feel something else. And another thing I do not think she's the antagonist. She's just a woman in the group or someone important to the group.
Wut.
Ben's a shit for brains coward, everybody knew that, the first sign of danger and he bolted, his idiocy did contribute to Duck's death and I was pissed at him for keeping quiet when Lilly was going after Carley but I'm not gonna hold it too much against him because he didn't make Lilly shoot her plus Lilly hated Carley so used the traitor excuse to go after her, Ben is a coward and an idiot but he's not a bad guy, he's harmless and had his reasons for dealing with the bandits which is why Clem was so reluctant to want him stay in the group, was Lilly in any danger when she robbed the group? did she have a reason for killing Carley? no. Clem wants Lilly face justice, this doesn't mean she's open to welcoming her with open arms when they run into each other again.
What has Clem done that is far worse than what Lilly has done?
We can decide what they say or what choice to make but we can't make them feel something, some gamers aren't fond of AJ but would their Clementine ditch him? no, just like every Clem, she'll take care of him. I never said that she was the main antagonist of S4, it's still a presumption, I said that it's not hard to believe that she'd become one.
Convincing Walter that a misguided person is just an asshole in order to get him killed, killing Sarita before Kenny can say goodbye, goating Kenny on as he’s beating a teenager, murdering Kenny for killing Jane, threatening to kill a man if he doesn’t agree to withhold his van, threatening to kill a man in order to let his brother get eaten by walkers, maybe some others.
From what I remember, Lilly didn't really know much about what has happened between Larry and Lee since her father didn't fill her in on what he had done. I don't remember there being an option to tell Lilly what happened between them either.
And to be fair, Larry didn't make more attempts on Lee's life during those three months either. I think I remember a scenario where he can even try to save Lee's life when Travis dies and reanimates as a walker. Chances are, Larry seemed to have anger issues and had a hard time trusting criminals.
And to add to that, don't forget that Clem shot a man just because he gave her faulty bullets! I don't get why people want to make out that Lily was as bad as Carver. Just based of season 1, she actually cares about the group. She sorted out the food, she scheduled shooting practise and she sensed that someone was taking the group's rations.
What? Lilly never scolds you for not giving Larry food. She rarely outwardly agrees with Larry. She doesn't agree to throw Duck out the group, after Larry assumes he got bit, she didn't agree with him that the St John's weren't cannibals. Most of the time she's trying to calm him down.
She calls you cold for not giving him food at the St John farm, he tries to kill you after you save his life and she gives you the food to give out to people of your choice but the bitch scolds you for not giving her dad food. She's in charge isn't she? she should've done a better job controlling her dad and calming him down especially since his heart will be a huge risk to himself & others but instead she lets him mouth off.
You do know that was an accident right? she shot Eli by mistake thinking the bullets didn't work since they didn't work the first two times but to her surprise worked the third time. No one's made Lilly out to be bad, she did it to herself due to her decisions and I already pointed out why she didn't care about the group, she is bad based on what she did in Season 1, you don't think she's bad as Carver then fine, but she's nowhere near good as people make her out to be.
If Mark knew about Larry punching Lee then I'm sure Lilly did, it's not a big group, there's nowhere for her to hide from that info. Episode 3 confirmed she knew.
Larry is not gonna let Lee die in front of everyone when Travis/Teacher reanimate and attack him, he didn't make any more attempts on his life after the pharmacy but knowing Lee was more aware of him, Larry was still a hostile bully, he never trusted anyone whether they're criminals or not.
First 4 are the players choice. I'm not gonna excuse her for the last two, in fairness to her, she didn't know Javi but ended up helping him throughout the game and her threatening Javi to not let David in, again, I'm not gonna excuse her behaviour, granted David did take AJ away from her and she believed AJ died because of David but I'm not gonna defend her, she should've at least find out first if AJ died or not but it's understandable why she's so hostile to David. These actions are nowhere as bad compared to Lilly shooting dead a kind hearted person and leaving her own group to die after being given a second chance.
Clementine is whoever the player chooses her to be, isn’t that the point? My clementine did all of these choices.
We still have to see what happened at the Ranch.
I can agree that Larry did tell Lilly now that I think about it, but it does raise the question as to why Lilly wasn't immediately distrustful and intolerant of Lee in Starved for Help.
The way I see it, she wanted to give Lee a chance to prove himself that he wasn't a lowlife criminal like Larry implied, and so as long as he didn't pose a danger to her or her father, Lilly was more tolerant towards Lee than her father was.
The way I hope it happens, that instead of just being the typical insane villain is that by the time we see her in Season Four, she's already pretty much come around and gotten back on track. She now has a group she cares about and isn't dysfunctional, and she's a good member of that group. The whole deal with Dougley is far behind her. And then Clem shows up again and threatens to reveal the terrible person she used to be and she slowly starts to fall back into what she was, because she's paranoid of what Clem's being there would mean.
I think that this would be a natural extension of her character.
Like I said to BigLee, we can decide what they say or what choice to make but we can't make them feel something. You can make her brutal as you can but Clementine herself wouldn't go too far.
True, true. I only hope that Lily hasn’t become a mass murdering, baby-stabbing freak since the last time we met. It’ll be fun to see how Clementine can choose to react to her reappearance, where the game doesn’t outright tell you to hate her.
I hate Lily and think she’s a selfish, self-aggrandizing asshole. And I couldn’t be more thrilled about her return ?
I'm glad they took the route of "once ally now enemy" direction if they are. This makes things a bit personal and intriguing. In a way I do hope that boot on Clementine's neck (literally lol) is Lily's foot. No more brand new bland villains to get to know over 3 episodes.. Now it's time for somebody more closer to home like Kenny could of been in season 2.
...well. you have a right to your opinion even if it's the wrong one. do y'all just not understand that she was literally mentally ill? she suffered a trauma and then she had a mental breakdown, of course that's gonna make her act irrational and unstable. we know from the interactions we had with her when she was clear-headed that she was an individual that valued justice and selflessness, but she wasn't perfect. she was against stealing food from the stranger's car and she also acts appalled if you let the woman at the beginning of ep 3 act as distraction for the walkers.