Oh man, you're like seriously twisting everything we've said. I would be glad if everybody read Kiel555. You know for Omid's sake!
For the last time Larry was not even dead. His mouth even moves... Now we hear that he might have not even reanimated for hours... There is absolutely nothing that you can say that will make Kenny's choice the right call. He and you (possible) abandoned hope, gave up on one of your own and killed him in cold blood just because you were afraid. Deal with it.
Kenny murdered Lilly's father and one week after that he's still giving her hell... Yeah I will pretty much say he's the root of all problems in ep. 3.
Andy was much, much stronger than most of the walkers... Actually just yesterday I watched a playthrough where a girl was playing and killed Larry. Lilly, of course did not help Lee but neither did Kenny. Lee broke from Andy's grip on his own and finished him. So yeah, Lee is pretty capable of dealing with Andy and some damn slow walker.
You just chose the easier way...
I'm glad you try not to be sexist, cause I'm not sexist at all. I'm being realistic here.
Carley knew what? How many time was she on watch while we were playing? How many times did she go hunting? As far as I recall in ep. 3 she was watching the sunset from the balcony, contemplating how to seduce Lee... yeah really productive Carley. Plus how did she get captured...she was on the frikkin balcony and was supposed to have a gun.
Oh, Lilly scared poor little group and eat food? Oh I agree the witch should burn... She was the only one to keep a count of her own... she was trying to protect the group and was actually doing more than almost everybody on the group. The RV saved everybody? No, Lilly saved everybody by shooting the "I don't like no hash guy" and giving them chance to fight back.
The RV was something that Kenny meant to escape with.
Kenny and Lee are never on watch, so they contribute by hunting and scavenging for supplies.
When you go to Macon you can choose between two type of people. Fast stealthy smart Glenn type of guys or stronger, tough Daryl kind of guys. Why the heck would I bring Carley. I don't want her to attract a herd by shooting somebody and I need somebody that can actually lift me up (Kenny is useless too, but the best we've got).
Ben is a teenager, so Kenny is the only possible choice. Ben would be the second one if Kenny wasn't there.
Lilly is great and I would gladly have her keep my back safe, but she's needed back in the motor inn. That's the reality we live in and there's nothing sexist about it.
As for your argument with the burning building... it is absolutely invalid. First of all Kenny abandons you back in the dairy for no apparent reason when you are actually trying to save his family.
Secondly he abandons you in Macon. You've brought him up so that there is somebody to help you if you're in a tight spot, not leave you to save his own damn skin. I don't need him to come with me to Macon if he's going to more of a liability than help.
Walkers can move there mouths an there's still no evidence that Larry wasnt dead. The legless guy turned after during of blood loss so your book obviously doesn't matter. Kenny made the smart choice and didn't risk the entire group for one person who might not be dead. He did what you weren't strong or smart enough to do. Deal with that. :P
He gave crap to Lilly because she had Ben on watch. Thats just tempting the bandits to attack, why the hell wasn't she or Carely on watch. Both of them look tougher than Ben. It makes as much sense as putting Duck on watch. The group can't afford to be attacked with Ken and Lee gone. Also you blame Kenny for everything that happened in ep 3? Not Ben who made a deal with the bandits and didnt tell anyone. Not Lilly who killed an innocent for no good reason and with no proof? But Kenny? Seems legit
Andy may be stronger than most walkers but definitely not zombie Larry. Also Lee didn't have to smash Andys brains out. Also you think Lee, Kenny and Mark were all exaggerating about how hungry they were. Don't delude yourself. The were all weak from hunger.
Carley was double as useful and half the liability as Lilly. She never went on watch sure. But she went with Lee to the dairy, a potentially dangerous trip. She went back to defend the motel with Ben while everyone else had dinner. She saved Lees life several times and she didn't scare Ben or kill anyone innocent.
Lilly doesn't seem to do much post ep 3. Sits in her room and turns paranoid. Sure she killed one bandit. But without the RV, they are still stuck in the motel with no way out with bandits and walkers. And if she had listened to Kenny, they might not even have been in the motel at that time. And why didn't Lee take Lilly with him on the supply trip. Kenny and Carely could have defended the motel, and been on watch. Seems to me, Lee knew Lilly was a loose cannon and not worth bringing on the trip. We've never seen Lilly fight a walker so maybe she's just a coward.
And in the dairy, you just gambled with Kenny and his family's lives as well as everyone else for some guy who might be alive. You risked failing and condemning Katjaa and Duck to be killed slowly and eaten by cannibals. You were to stupid or too weak to make the right choice, you forced him to kill Larry and shoulder the guilt himself. Of course he hated you or still hates you. It's perfectly understandable.
And in Macon, it's not like he just jumped out a window when you nearly died. He just wasn't sure if he could save you. The room was filling with zombies and he would have been exposed helping you up. He was making the kind of you've you have to make if you want to survive the ZA for long. Better that one survive than none.
Walkers can move there mouths an there's still no evidence that Larry wasnt dead. The legless guy turned after during of blood loss so your book obviously doesn't matter. Kenny made the smart choice and didn't risk the entire group for one person who might not be dead. He did what you weren't strong or smart enough to do. Deal with that. :P
He gave crap to Lilly because she had Ben on watch. Thats just tempting the bandits to attack, why the hell wasn't she or Carely on watch. Both of them look tougher than Ben. It makes as much sense as putting Duck on watch. The group can't afford to be attacked with Ken and Lee gone. Also you blame Kenny for everything that happened in ep 3? Not Ben who made a deal with the bandits and didnt tell anyone. Not Lilly who killed an innocent for no good reason and with no proof? But Kenny? Seems legit
Any may be stronger than most walkers but definitely not zombie Larry. Also Lee didn't have to smash Andys brains out. Also you think Lee, Kenny and Mark were all exaggerating about how hungry they were. Don't delude yourself. The were all weak from hunger.
Carley was double as useful and half the liability as Lilly. She never went on watch sure. But she went with Lee to the dairy, a potentially dangerous trip. She went back to defend the motel with Ben while everyone else had dinner. She saved Lees life several times and she didn't scare Ben or kill anyone innocent.
Lilly doesn't seem to do much post ep 3. Sits in her room and turns paranoid. Sure she killed one bandit. But without the RV, they are still stuck in the motel with no way out with bandits and walkers. And if she had listened to Kenny, they might not even have been in the motel at that time. And why didn't Lee take Lilly with him on the supply trip. Kenny and Carely could have defended the motel, and been on watch. Seems to me, Lee knew Lilly was a loose cannon and not worth bringing on the trip. We've never seen Lilly fight a walker so maybe she's just a coward.
And in the dairy, you just gambled with Kenny and his family's lives as well as everyone else for some guy who might be alive. You risked failing and condemning Katjaa and Duck to be killed slowly and eaten by cannibals. You were to stupid or too weak to make the right choice, you forced him to kill Larry and shoulder the guilt himself. Of course he hated you or still hates you. It's perfectly understandable.
And in Macon, it's not like he just jumped out a window when you nearly died. He just wasn't sure if he could save you. The room was filling with zombies and he would have been exposed helping you up. He was making the kind of you've you have to make if you want to survive the ZA for long. Better that one survive than none.
Blood loss is not a natural cause. Go back and read Kiel555's post.
I'm sorry but with all you've said in this post it is almost impossible to take your opinion seriously anymore. You're on repeat. You quote my post but you don't actually think about or discuss anything I've said.
I'll just say that you and I have very different understanding of what is weak/strong and right/wrong. It is easier to kill a guy and save your own skin than risk your neck and try to do the right thing.
Blood loss is not a natural cause. Go back and read Kiel555's post.
I'm sorry but with all you've said in this post it is almost impossible to take your opinion seriously anymore. You're on repeat. You quote my post but you don't actually think about or discuss anything I've said.
I'll just say that you and I have very different understanding of what is weak/strong and right/wrong. It is easier to kill a guy and save your own skin than risk your neck and try to do the right thing.
Say heart attack is a natural cause of death and so he doesn't reanimate. How were Kenny and Lee supposed to know that. Ben didn't say "If you die, you come back. Unless you die of natural causes" Even if Larry was alive in the end, it was still the right choice with the information the characters had. I wouldn't count on Lee or Kenny having read that book. And this is all assuming the book and game go together.
Way to be condescending and just hide behind "Oh well, you said that before, so I won't reply"
I set out each paragraph to match with your own and I address each of you're points. Please don't insult me by suggesting I just copy and paste my arguments. Seems to me you just have no rebuke.
Sure risking youre own life to do what you think is the right thing is fine. But you cross the line when you risk not only you and Lilly who agree with that, but also Kenny and Duck and Katjaa and Carely and Ben. The last four wouldnt exactly get good deaths either, but you seem to not care about that.
Say heart attack is a natural cause of death and so he doesn't reanimate. How were Kenny and Lee supposed to know that. Ben didn't say "If you die, you come back. Unless you die of natural causes" Even if Larry was alive in the end, it was still the right choice with the information the characters had. I wouldn't count on Lee or Kenny having read that book. And this is all assuming the book and game go together.
Way to be condescending and just hide behind "Oh well, you said that before, so I won't reply"
I set out each paragraph to match with your own and I address each of you're points. Please don't insult me by suggesting I just copy and paste my arguments. Seems to me you just have no rebuke.
Sure risking youre own life to do what you think is the right thing is fine. But you cross the line when you risk not only you and Lilly who agree with that, but also Kenny and Duck and Katjaa and Carely and Ben. The last four wouldnt exactly get good deaths either, but you seem to not care about that.
In this game I only have one playthrough going. I've not done like others and tried every option available to see what's different and what else the characters say. I don't have a good Lee, bad Lee or silent Lee...just one Lee.
I make split second decisions and live with the consequences. On more than one occasion I was tempted to go back and make different choices but I didn't. When I first met Lilly I said things that I wish now I had not said and joined Kenny in undermining Lilly as well. To my credit I began treating her like a member of my group and tried to help her when I could as I would do for anyone in my group.
When Kenny demanded that I not stay neutral and take a side I chose Lilly. Because of this choice, I began talking with Lilly and spending time with her. That conversation with her by the gazebo I learned a lot about Larry and why he is the way he is. Learned a lot about Lilly too.
In the meat locker, I knew the risk to Lee and Clem and did agree with Kenny that the risk of Larry reanimating was indeed great the consequences severe. But when Lilly called for aid it was a friend asking me for help. A friend is someone who you take risks for even at great personal risk. I have benefited from my friends who may or may not have known the risks but still helped. Clem in fighting Sandra, Carley at the drugstore, in the drugstore, at the motel when Travis reanimated. I'm in a group that takes risks for their friends and that's why I chose the group rather than Kenny and his family only.
Kenny did what he did because he has no friends. Only his family matters to him. It began with leaving Shawn to die, then with killing Larry and continues now with leaving Lee to die two time at last count.
I grew up northern Canada, basic survival skills were just part of growing up and yeah, my grandmother, besides being a registered nurse and raising 8 kids, hunted. Don't be so incredibly small minded.
lol, if Im being small minded, you saying men and women are equal in every single way is flat out naive.
Oh no, there are more than enough differences to make me quite glad I'm female. Cosmo? Idiot.
First small minded, now idiot...is someone losing a grip on their position?
Look, you use the right tool for the job, simple as that. If I want to put a nail into wood, I use a hammer not a soup ladle.
I don't have a "position", loser. A penis doesn't make you superior, it makes you vulnerable.
Ok so it's 'small minded', 'idiot' and we can now add 'loser'. Fair to say you've no more argument at this point. Oh, and do try your best to keep those emotions in check, mud-slinging is the 1st sign of a losing battle.
If the only point you have is the one that evidently leads you around, than there's obviously no intelligence to follow it up.
This started when your heated enemy made a valid point. That the men go out and do what they have traditionally been doing since we came out of the trees, thousands of years ago.
You argued that was somehow 'outdated', I made a simple statement that you twisted into a sexist connotation.
When I backed it up you returned with insults and weak follow-ups.
Short of you explaining how it 'leads me around' I'd say this convo is over and I'll see you on the next battlefield.
Just a friendly reminder that this is the bash Kenny thread, which is why it's my favorite, where bashing of Kenny is both encouraged and approved. Let's redirect all that energy towards the character who so richly deserves it....Kenny.
In this game I only have one playthrough going. I've not done like others and tried every option available to see what's different and what else the characters say. I don't have a good Lee, bad Lee or silent Lee...just one Lee.
I make split second decisions and live with the consequences. On more than one occasion I was tempted to go back and make different choices but I didn't. When I first met Lilly I said things that I wish now I had not said and joined Kenny in undermining Lilly as well. To my credit I began treating her like a member of my group and tried to help her when I could as I would do for anyone in my group.
When Kenny demanded that I not stay neutral and take a side I chose Lilly. Because of this choice, I began talking with Lilly and spending time with her. That conversation with her by the gazebo I learned a lot about Larry and why he is the way he is. Learned a lot about Lilly too.
In the meat locker, I knew the risk to Lee and Clem and did agree with Kenny that the risk of Larry reanimating was indeed great the consequences severe. But when Lilly called for aid it was a friend asking me for help. A friend is someone who you take risks for even at great personal risk. I have benefited from my friends who may or may not have known the risks but still helped. Clem in fighting Sandra, Carley at the drugstore, in the drugstore, at the motel when Travis reanimated. I'm in a group that takes risks for their friends and that's why I chose the group rather than Kenny and his family only.
Kenny did what he did because he has no friends. Only his family matters to him. It began with leaving Shawn to die, then with killing Larry and continues now with leaving Lee to die two time at last count.
I understand youre reasoning but i believe in the ZA to survive to have to think survival. Seeing youre friend in trouble hurts but would he/she want you to endanger to rest of the group to help them? The ability to harden youre heart to cries of help is what makes the difference between life and death. Lily wanted to not help Ben and the legless guy, and kick them out to die in the woods, so in this case the two are not so different. The only difference is that Kenny can apply the same survivor logic to people he knows well, he has that strength. Maybe its because he has no friends, or maybe he just simply prioritises himself and his family over all else. I dont blame him for that to be honest. Also people dont seem to blame Larry for only caring about his family and dont mind him trying to kill Duck, but when Kenny does it, suddenly he's and asshole. Not to mention Kenny never punched you into a room full of zombies. Honestly i dont really mind Larry, i think i got the same conversation at the gazebo. But why cant Kenny feel the same about his family?
With Shawn, Kenny did grab Duck and GTFO. But he had no idea what was going on, for all he knew walkers were approaching from all sides and the farm was falling. It wouldnt take much for a whole group of zombies to hear the screams and approach. And if that was happening, he would need to get in the pickup truck and GTFO as fast as possible.
A second point is that at the end of the day, i believe the risk was not worth the reward. If you cant harden youre heart to cries of help, then sorry but you're Lee risks everyone elses lives as well as others in these situations. Also always seemed really arrogant to save one man at the risk of the rest. And its not like you even had their opinion, Carely and Duck and Katjaa and Ben didnt know the risks with the cannibals, if you all had died in the meat locker, they would have had no help and would have been very vulnerable. You want to risk 4 people getting slowly eaten alive by cannibals and waiting (hell hoping) for death to save the life of one guy? And sorry but none of youre "I help my friends" examples even come close to the risks in the meat locker. Risks of not just death but a horrific agonising drawn out one.
I've also already been through why Kenny didnt help Lee twice, can you please just look up my earlier posts on that and argue about them? Pretty please? :P
I understand youre reasoning but i believe in the ZA to survive to have to think survival. Seeing youre friend in trouble hurts but would he/she want you to endanger to rest of the group to help them? The ability to harden youre heart to cries of help is what makes the difference between life and death. Lily wanted to not help Ben and the legless guy, and kick them out to die in the woods, so in this case the two are not so different. The only difference is that Kenny can apply the same survivor logic to people he knows well, he has that strength. Maybe its because he has no friends, or maybe he just simply prioritises himself and his family over all else. I dont blame him for that to be honest. Also people dont seem to blame Larry for only caring about his family and dont mind him trying to kill Duck, but when Kenny does it, suddenly he's and asshole. Not to mention Kenny never punched you into a room full of zombies. Honestly i dont really mind Larry, i think i got the same conversation at the gazebo. But why cant Kenny feel the same about his family?
With Shawn, Kenny did grab Duck and GTFO. But he had no idea what was going on, for all he knew walkers were approaching from all sides and the farm was falling. It wouldnt take much for a whole group of zombies to hear the screams and approach. And if that was happening, he would need to get in the pickup truck and GTFO as fast as possible.
A second point is that at the end of the day, i believe the risk was not worth the reward. If you cant harden youre heart to cries of help, then sorry but you're Lee risks everyone elses lives as well as others in these situations. Also always seemed really arrogant to save one man at the risk of the rest. And its not like you even had their opinion, Carely and Duck and Katjaa and Ben didnt know the risks with the cannibals, if you all had died in the meat locker, they would have had no help and would have been very vulnerable. You want to risk 4 people getting slowly eaten alive by cannibals and waiting (hell hoping) for death to save the life of one guy? And sorry but none of youre "I help my friends" examples even come close to the risks in the meat locker. Risks of not just death but a horrific agonising drawn out one.
I've also already been through why Kenny didnt help Lee twice, can you please just look up my earlier posts on that and argue about them? Pretty please? :P
Sure but in this story it's about group survival not individual survival. Otherwise, Lee would have thanked Clem for her help and been on his way without her. A story about Lee and what he's done to survive in a ZA. No friends, no group, no risks taken to help anyone... just survival where it is every man for himself and the ends justify the means.
That's what Kenny's story was according to Kat. He did not help anyone from Atlanta to Hershal's Farm. They saw plenty of people who needed help and even ran over a few but Kenny just kept on driving.
Survival is fine but it has its consequences if you have a family and friends. Those consequences could be the loss of your family and friends. Why, because they may not approve of your actions. Even view them as unbecoming of a husband, a friend and a man.
Granted, acting with some dignity will put you at increased risk. But if remaining the man your wife fell in love with and being considered honorable by your friends entails too much risk to your survival then yes you are better off without them.
Sure but in this story it's about group survival not individual survival. Otherwise, Lee would have thanked Clem for her help and been on his way without her. A story about Lee and what he's done to survive in a ZA. No friends, no group, no risks taken to help anyone... just survival where it is every man for himself and the ends justify the means.
That's what Kenny's story was according to Kat. He did not help anyone from Atlanta to Hershal's Farm. They saw plenty of people who needed help and even ran over a few but Kenny just kept on driving.
Survival is fine but it has its consequences if you have a family and friends. Those consequences could be the loss of your family and friends. Why, because they may not approve of your actions. Even view them as unbecoming of a husband, a friend and a man.
Granted, acting with some dignity will put you at increased risk. But if remaining the man your wife fell in love with and being considered honorable by your friends entails too much risk to your survival then yes you are better off without them.
No offence but it seems kind of hypocritical to talk about group survival and then defend the decision that puts the entire group in danger. :P
And personally I think Kenny was right to be suspicious of strangers and refuse to make/join a group. At the start he was acting on instinct. Get him and his family from danger. I can't really blame Kenny for not trusting anyone at the start either, it only takes one crazy guy who wants their car and supplies or early bandit to finish them all. I mean, it didn't take long for people to start killing each other, Shawn tells you about the guy who shot a kid and we see
Bandits in ep 2. Also Its a large step from not joining a group to becoming a "end justify means" bandit kind of guy. There are good arguments for not making/joining groups. I think after getting help from Hershel and talking to Lee, he became more trusting anyway, since he sticks with the group for a while.
I have yet to see Kenny do anything that truly makes me doubt him though I do agree survival and what he has done changed him. He admits it himself. However I've yet to see anything to make him truly horrible. He has become tougher, hard hearted sure but it's not like he's a cold blooded killer like she who shall remain nameless.
No offence but it seems kind of hypocritical to talk about group survival and then defend the decision that puts the entire group in danger. :P
And personally I think Kenny was right to be suspicious of strangers and refuse to make/join a group. At the start he was acting on instinct. Get him and his family from danger. I can't really blame Kenny for not trusting anyone at the start either, it only takes one crazy guy who wants their car and supplies or early bandit to finish them all. I mean, it didn't take long for people to start killing each other, Shawn tells you about the guy who shot a kid and we see
Bandits in ep 2. Also Its a large step from not joining a group to becoming a "end justify means" bandit kind of guy. There are good arguments for not making/joining groups. I think after getting help from Hershel and talking to Lee, he became more trusting anyway, since he sticks with the group for a while.
I have yet to see Kenny do anything that truly makes me doubt him though I do agree survival and what he has done changed him. He admits it himself. However I've yet to see anything to make him truly horrible. He has become tougher, hard hearted sure but it's not like he's a cold blooded killer like she who shall remain nameless.
I would say that destroying the groups morale can be a much bigger danger than some walkers.
Have you seen the TV show's season 3 phrase "Fight the dead, FEAR the living".
You say that Kenny was a toughen survivor and all, and I would've been the first one to admit that, had he finished Duck right away. He knew there was no cure and yet he let Duck stay with them for like 10 hours after he was bitten. Had Duck turned while they were in the RV, he would bite not only Katjaa and Kenny, but the rest as well. Lilly was cuffed/missing, Carley/Doug dead and Lee/Clem were asleep. Ben was with a gun but... he's Ben. Duck was a quite big threat and yet he didn't do anything about it. I guess he's tough as long as it is not his family.
No offence but it seems kind of hypocritical to talk about group survival and then defend the decision that puts the entire group in danger. :P
And personally I think Kenny was right to be suspicious of strangers and refuse to make/join a group. At the start he was acting on instinct. Get him and his family from danger. I can't really blame Kenny for not trusting anyone at the start either, it only takes one crazy guy who wants their car and supplies or early bandit to finish them all. I mean, it didn't take long for people to start killing each other, Shawn tells you about the guy who shot a kid and we see
Bandits in ep 2. Also Its a large step from not joining a group to becoming a "end justify means" bandit kind of guy. There are good arguments for not making/joining groups. I think after getting help from Hershel and talking to Lee, he became more trusting anyway, since he sticks with the group for a while.
I have yet to see Kenny do anything that truly makes me doubt him though I do agree survival and what he has done changed him. He admits it himself. However I've yet to see anything to make him truly horrible. He has become tougher, hard hearted sure but it's not like he's a cold blooded killer like she who shall remain nameless.
The entire group has always been in danger. As an individual you are in grave danger in this ZA. By being in a group, an attempt to mitigate this danger is made by pooling resources and skills in the yet to be proven theory that this will ensure your survival. But you are not out of danger. In the story, our group was selected by cannibals as ripe for the pickings. No offense either but when cannibals have preselected you for their next meal and you're currently in their meatlocker, trying to save Larry is not putting the "presently safe" group in "danger".
I think we were all fortunate that Hershal owned that farm and not Kenny. Why did Kenny stop? Was it because Hershal needed help and Kenny came to his aid? Kenny needed help. A safe place to hold up, rest and repair his truck. Good thing Hershal is a better man than Kenny. You know, it only takes one crazy person, a stranger, to put your daughters who are upstairs in danger right?
I've seen plenty that makes Kenny horrible. But that's the great thing about this story, a few different choices and rather than join in the madness you get to see Kenny implode all on his own. He's a pitiful sight in my game. Good thing he does not need friends or a group. I'm not sure how he's going to survive on his own but then again that's not my problem.
Yes, the entire group was in extreme danger in the meat locker. The cannibals were going to eat them, and they had no weapons with which to defend themselves. Then the biggest, strongest member of the group has a heart attack and it's not clear if he's dead or not. Their danger level just doubled. They have no weapons, and one (at least) group member is hovering over the possibly dead man trying to revive him. If he reanimates, that person will be bitten and they will die. That's one less person able to help fight off the cannibals. Possibly two less. And that's if they can get the situation under control in time and kill the walker before he gets even more people.
The group is always in a bit of danger. But in circumstances like the dairy, the danger is so extreme that taking chances should be out of the question. There's no way Kenny or Lee or Lilly could take the cannibals on solo, and Duck was looking pretty out of it after getting on the RV after being bitten once. The chances of casualties were too high already IMO, and to risk our lives for someone who could already be dead, in those circumstances, seemed unwise to me.
I think that's the true beauty of the game. Even if people complain that choices do not matter, I think that decisions that makes us think and behave in such a different way matter much more than choices (bad vs good) that simply give different results.
I would say that destroying the groups morale can be a much bigger danger than some walkers.
Have you seen the TV show's season 3 phrase "Fight the dead, FEAR the living".
You say that Kenny was a toughen survivor and all, and I would've been the first one to admit that, had he finished Duck right away. He knew there was no cure and yet he let Duck stay with them for like 10 hours after he was bitten. Had Duck turned while they were in the RV, he would bite not only Katjaa and Kenny, but the rest as well. Lilly was cuffed/missing, Carley/Doug dead and Lee/Clem were asleep. Ben was with a gun but... he's Ben. Duck was a quite big threat and yet he didn't do anything about it. I guess he's tough as long as it is not his family.
I agree that group morality is important but at the end of the
it should be the groups survival you are mainly concerned about. I have no repect for anyone who would put their own morality in front of others lives. What good is group morale or morals, if the group gets wiped out?
And I would have thought Kenny was a monster if he had immediately given up on Duck and killed him. And I would have thought Lilly a monster if she immediately gave up on Larry. There's tough and then there's just heartless. I dont blame Lilly for not giving up on her dad but at the end of the day, you weigh the risks and make the call, and Larry was a larger threat in the meatlocker. I would type out why but i have already done so lime 20000 times.
With Duck, we already know its not the bite that turns you, it's when you die. I trusted Kat to shout out when or just before Duck died as she did.
I don't blame Kenny for not immediately giving up on Duck like I didn't Lilly.
The entire group has always been in danger. As an individual you are in grave danger in this ZA. By being in a group, an attempt to mitigate this danger is made by pooling resources and skills in the yet to be proven theory that this will ensure your survival. But you are not out of danger. In the story, our group was selected by cannibals as ripe for the pickings. No offense either but when cannibals have preselected you for their next meal and you're currently in their meatlocker, trying to save Larry is not putting the "presently safe" group in "danger".
I think we were all fortunate that Hershal owned that farm and not Kenny. Why did Kenny stop? Was it because Hershal needed help and Kenny came to his aid? Kenny needed help. A safe place to hold up, rest and repair his truck. Good thing Hershal is a better man than Kenny. You know, it only takes one crazy person, a stranger, to put your daughters who are upstairs in danger right?
I've seen plenty that makes Kenny horrible. But that's the great thing about this story, a few different choices and rather than join in the madness you get to see Kenny implode all on his own. He's a pitiful sight in my game. Good thing he does not need friends or a group. I'm not sure how he's going to survive on his own but then again that's not my problem.
Killing Larry put them out of "Immediate danger of inevitable death" and that gives them more time to work things out. Saying that they should help Larry because cannibals are outside anyway seems like giving up, and sure they are always in danger. But that's no excuse to make the choice that ups the risk of everyone dieing.
I don't think the Hershel argument doesn't work well because he obviously has no idea how bad things are, unlike Kenny. And you could argue than accepting those strangers led to Shawn's death. I appreciate Hershels kindness but I wouldn't have blamed him for telling us to GTFO his land when we first met. Just like I don't blame Kenny's family for not giving help. It's also still a lot kinder than Lilly wanting us to leave Ben and legless guy outside camp to get eaten.
Also I don't believe in calling someone horrible because they look out for themselves and their family first.
Wrighty, my problem is your post is that you look it only from one side. To you it's about survival and yet, your just twisting the situations. Larry could've died, but he could've survived as well. You can't say things like "inevitable death". There couldn't have been any deaths at all.
Duck was bitten in ep.3. The bite kills you and that might happen really fast. Turning after a bite death could take less than a minute. Leaving Duck in the RV was immediate threat as well. Katjaa could've fallen asleep for 1 minute and that could've been the time when Duck dies, turns and bites somebody. Actually even if she doesn't fall asleep, if Duck dies in her arms she might not have the strength to speak or act before he turns and bites somebody else.
I understand why Kenny didn't throw him out of course, but he was very quick to kill Larry. I can't accept his survival mentality when he acts when he doesn't care about people but chickens when it comes to his family. To me this makes him a coward.
Make no mistake, Duck was not a lesser threat than Larry was.
As for Ben and the teacher, Lilly says it very well "They are not responsible for every struggling survivor out there". The group was already starving so it wasn't that she didn't want to help, it is just that she had her group to take care.
To me Kenny was once again a hypocrite there. This is like the second time he says that unlike Lilly, he tries to help people. However, if you do not side with him in the meat locker he leaves you to die twice. Even if I do not agree with him, I'm not his enemy, yet he doesn't move his finger to save me. He also tells you to leave a girl get eaten so he can make it easier for himself.
And Wrighty, please don't mention your burning building argument again, because it is nothing like it. If he is the person he claims to be, if he can help you if you're his buddy and leave you to die if you're just a group member then that reveals enough about what kind of person he is.
Wrighty, my problem is your post is that you look it only from one side. To you it's about survival and yet, your just twisting the situations. Larry could've died, but he could've survived as well. You can't say things like "inevitable death". There couldn't have been any deaths at all.
Duck was bitten in ep.3. The bite kills you and that might happen really fast. Turning after a bite death could take less than a minute. Leaving Duck in the RV was immediate threat as well. Katjaa could've fallen asleep for 1 minute and that could've been the time when Duck dies, turns and bites somebody. Actually even if she doesn't fall asleep, if Duck dies in her arms she might not have the strength to speak or act before he turns and bites somebody else.
I understand why Kenny didn't throw him out of course, but he was very quick to kill Larry. I can't accept his survival mentality when he acts when he doesn't care about people but chickens when it comes to his family. To me this makes him a coward.
Make no mistake, Duck was not a lesser threat than Larry was.
As for Ben and the teacher, Lilly says it very well "They are not responsible for every struggling survivor out there". The group was already starving so it wasn't that she didn't want to help, it is just that she had her group to take care.
To me Kenny was once again a hypocrite there. This is like the second time he says that unlike Lilly, he tries to help people. However, if you do not side with him in the meat locker he leaves you to die twice. Even if I do not agree with him, I'm not his enemy, yet he doesn't move his finger to save me. He also tells you to leave a girl get eaten so he can make it easier for himself.
And Wrighty, please don't mention your burning building argument again, because it is nothing like it. If he is the person he claims to be, if he can help you if you're his buddy and leave you to die if you're just a group member then that reveals enough about what kind of person he is.
"Danger of inevitable death" is what i said :P
If Larry turns, then they are all screwed and if you cant accept that, then you're deluding yourself. Not risking everyones lives for one guy is simple survival 101. And i dont see not being able to immediately give up on youre family and then kill them making you a coward. If that was the case, Lilly was a coward as she didnt give up on Larry. And before you say "But bite means he will DEFINETELY turn into a zombie", remember that these characters still know very little about the virus. Maybe a small number are immune, maybe it doesnt affect kids?
Also i would have been suprised if Katjaa was able to sleep after what had happened. The adrenaline and holding her dieing son in her arms, not to mention her wound? I would be suprised if she was able to sleep.
And i post this time and time again but it doesnt seem to sink it. Sure Duck was a danger but he wasnt half a danger as Larry was. Im writing this down ONE MORE TIME :P
1.Ben and Lee (I think) had guns. Or even if one person had a gun, it would have been a simple matter for Ben to pass the gun over to Lee or for him to shoot zombie Duck himself as he eats his mum and then finish her off. If she falls asleep, at least the screams will wake everyone and Kenny will notice if he turns aswell. In the meatlocker, no one had any weapons and so the situation was alot more dangerous. And as far as i know, no one inside the meatlocker were ninja's or capable of killing people with their bare hands. And i know you want to type "But Kenny could have stood over Larry while she tried to save him" but i have already been over this. Zombies tend to leap up and standing close over Larry would have put Kenny in danger aswell. Not to mention, a salt lick isnt a efficient weapon and missing with it could just annoy Larry and get his attention. And like you said, what if people get bitten and then die and turn really quick. Larry bites Lilly who quickly turns while Lee tries to fight Larry and they all get eaten. Im using youre own argument against you :P
2. Duck is alot smaller and weaker. That could make all the difference if Lee or someone else has to hold him off with their bare hands for a certain time. Larry was huge and strong.
3.They can at least get the hell out of the RV if he turns. If Larry turned in the meatlocker, they had no where to go and would have not been able to run.
4. The worst that can happen is they all get bitten. I know this sounds bad but the risks for Duck and Katjaa and Carley and Ben was that they get slowly torn apart and eaten alive by the cannibals. Makes getting bitten seem alot nicer doesnt it?
With those four reasons, its pretty plain to see that Duck was not as much a threat as Larry was and i hope to god i never have to type this again.
With the two times he leaves you to die, ill put it this way and keep it short. You just gambled Kenny and his families lives for the life of some old bastard, who when he had a heart attack last time, we had to go get him medicine to survive. Also he is a old bastard because you go get him medicine and he then thanks you by PUNCHING YOU IN THE FACE AND LEAVING YOU TO DIE. And its not like Kat and Duck get quick and painless deaths either, as i have been over before. So you can hardly blame him for hating you at that moment. You just risked the lives of the only people left in the world he truly cares about and you risked them getting eaten slowly by cannibals.
And i have already been over the Macon situation. You're Lee is not his buddy because of what you did in the meatlocker and he is hardly going to run further into a room filling with zombies for a guy who he doesnt even like. People are too used to how in games, you cannot really see the risks. If Lee ran into a room full of zombies to save Kenny, you know he would survive and everything would be fine. Why? Because its a game and needs to continue. And so you expect the same for Kenny. But a true ZA would force you to be alot stronger than just that. You cant just run in and save every person, even if he is youre best friend or even wife and expect to last long. Especially if you run to save everyone, including people who arent even you're friends.
And i like how you quote "not responsible for every struggling survivor out there" and then blame Kenny for wanting to leave a girl to get eaten. It was the smart choice, the girl was already dead and we needed the supplies. And whats to stop the walkers getting attracted by the gunshot and then coming and killing us? You obviously dont seem to care about slow and painful deaths anyway, you sure gambled with them in the meatlocker.
Dude, most of your post is some crazy speculations and theories that would never happen.
Duck was bitten, Ben didn't knew, Lee was asleep, Kenny is his father and wouldn't do shit. If Duck turned... it was over for at least half of them. You can make crazy theories as much as you want but that doesn't change the situation that you're super biased.
You may not agree with me but I'm consistent and I don't try to create impossible scenarios to justify my choices.
I saved Duck at Hershel's farm because he was a child.
I didn't side with Larry in the drugstore.
I supported Kenny in the Lilly argument because I chopped the teacher's leg.
I didn't shot Jolene.
I let Irene shot herself.
Until that point Kenny was a friend whom I had helped a lot, because I fed his son once again in ep. 2
I tries to save Larry.
Kenny backstabbed me and left me for dead.
I killed both brothers because I was sending a message.
Lilly saved me and became a friend whom I started to trust.
I stole the supplies.
I shot the poor girl in ep.3
I stood by Lilly's side because after Kenny left me for dead one more time in Macon.
I confessed to everybody because Carley made me do it.
Lilly shot Carley, but I took her in.
I didn't yell at Kenny to stop the RV cause I knew he wouldn't listen anyway.
I decided to leave with Lilly cause I didn't want anything to do with this group anymore.
I shot Duck.
You can make your wild speculations and theories but don't justify Kenny betrayal please. He may be an ally in yours, but in mine he's a total coward and an asshole. And no, I'm not the reason. He is.
Yeah, Kenny does leave you out of pure hate in Macon if you didn't help him with Larry. In the fight with Danny, if he leaves you it looks more like cowardice. In Episode 1 though, he was THE MAN! I really can't say that I saw him turning into what he is now from what I saw in the first episode. You can't say he isn't a great CHARACTER, but as a person he and Lilly are both inferior to others that we have lost... RIP Doug.
I wouldn't really say that. I think they are actually superior. Carley, Doug, Katjaa and Ben look very good when they do not make any decisions...but once they have to do some and look what happens "looks at Ben".
It's easy to just act as if the decisions of the group do not concern you and be the cool guy, but that doesn't really make you superior. Especially in a ZA.
Killing Larry put them out of "Immediate danger of inevitable death" and that gives them more time to work things out. Saying that they should help Larry because cannibals are outside anyway seems like giving up, and sure they are always in danger. But that's no excuse to make the choice that ups the risk of everyone dieing.
I don't think the Hershel argument doesn't work well because he obviously has no idea how bad things are, unlike Kenny. And you could argue than accepting those strangers led to Shawn's death. I appreciate Hershels kindness but I wouldn't have blamed him for telling us to GTFO his land when we first met. Just like I don't blame Kenny's family for not giving help. It's also still a lot kinder than Lilly wanting us to leave Ben and legless guy outside camp to get eaten.
Also I don't believe in calling someone horrible because they look out for themselves and their family first.
Giving up? Lilly and Lee were actively working on achieving the best possible outcome, however remote, that Larry would survive and we would all escape from the cannibals. Thats' not giving up.
Kenny was not a team player and folded under the pressure. He made the short term situation and long term survival more dangerous because the group actions became individual actions. Lilly was in shock, Lee was pissed and Kenny could not count on Lee. So who had to take on Danny solo? Lee.
On the other hand, Larry could have survived. Or the group could have dispatched walker Larry (I would have like to have done that by the way...epic fight:D) and then the group would have found a way out of the meat locker and attacked Danny as a group.
There is also the long term effect. What if we actually survived the meat locker and made it out. Kenny's way - group destroyed. Lee's way - group intact.
Kenny is horrible mainly due to his follow on actions, post meat locker, that you may not see in your game but I do in my game. I have not taken my decision to expel both Kenny and Ben as group members lightly (I've done this as best the game will allow. I've not spoken to Ben since he admitted to being the traitor and only interact with Kenny if required by the game to move the story along). They have simply demonstrated that they are not suited for the complex nature of group dynamics. Maybe they will do better as lone surviviors. I do believe we are stonger as a group than as individuals. But as I'm sure Kenny would agree, sometimes the risk outweighs the benefit.:)
Dude, most of your post is some crazy speculations and theories that would never happen.
Duck was bitten, Ben didn't knew, Lee was asleep, Kenny is his father and wouldn't do shit. If Duck turned... it was over for at least half of them. You can make crazy theories as much as you want but that doesn't change the situation that you're super biased.
You may not agree with me but I'm consistent and I don't try to create impossible scenarios to justify my choices.
I saved Duck at Hershel's farm because he was a child.
I didn't side with Larry in the drugstore.
I supported Kenny in the Lilly argument because I chopped the teacher's leg.
I didn't shot Jolene.
I let Irene shot herself.
Until that point Kenny was a friend whom I had helped a lot, because I fed his son once again in ep. 2
I tries to save Larry.
Kenny backstabbed me and left me for dead.
I killed both brothers because I was sending a message.
Lilly saved me and became a friend whom I started to trust.
I stole the supplies.
I shot the poor girl in ep.3
I stood by Lilly's side because after Kenny left me for dead one more time in Macon.
I confessed to everybody because Carley made me do it.
Lilly shot Carley, but I took her in.
I didn't yell at Kenny to stop the RV cause I knew he wouldn't listen anyway.
I decided to leave with Lilly cause I didn't want anything to do with this group anymore.
I shot Duck.
You can make your wild speculations and theories but don't justify Kenny betrayal please. He may be an ally in yours, but in mine he's a total coward and an asshole. And no, I'm not the reason. He is.
Crazy and wild speculation from the guy who thinks Lee and Kenny (Lilly will be too shocked to fight) can kill zombie Larry with no weapons and in a enclosed space? :P
Ben may not have known but he had a gun. Ben sees walker, passes gun to Lee or shoots Duck himself. NOT a impossible scenario. Especially as Duck would have been easy to killl while he finished off Katjaa. Lee would have been woken by Katjaa's screams no matter what.
And losing half the group is hell of a lot better than losing the entire group. Especially if two of the group (maybe four if the cannibals get em) get slowly eaten alive until they get the quick release of death. You risked a kid getting a death a hell of alot worse than getting eaten by walkers.
Making a nice little list of youre decisions isnt a good argument but nice try. And Carely made you confess? More like, you knew Lilly was about to kill someone or at least do something very rash and you decided to take the fall as Lilly likes you. Very noble but if Lilly was reasonable and realised she had no proof, you wouldnt have had to confess. Dont go blaming Carely. Also says what kind of person Lilly was, to steal the RV. Way to destroy their only chance of survival if they couldnt get the train to work. AND i thought Lilly was youre friend aswell :P
Also the key point in that was when you saved Larry. At that point you risked his life, and his families lifes (they would get eaten by cannibals slowly, die in a way that would make them want to get their head smashed in. Pretty sure i keep mentioning this). You risked the lives of the only people he really has left in the world for some old bastard, who tried to murder you after you got him medicine. Im not suprised he didnt forgive you for that. Im not suprised he didnt look at you trapped in a room full of approaching zombies and didnt immediatly rush in to save youre life. You Lilly fans always seem to glorify Larry aswell, do you think he would have saved you're life in Macon?
Simple calling my scenarios impossible isnt quite good enough and calling him a coward and asshole isnt one either. If he was a coward he would never have volunteered for the supply trip. And i've already been over why he isnt an asshole.
Comments
Walkers can move there mouths an there's still no evidence that Larry wasnt dead. The legless guy turned after during of blood loss so your book obviously doesn't matter. Kenny made the smart choice and didn't risk the entire group for one person who might not be dead. He did what you weren't strong or smart enough to do. Deal with that. :P
He gave crap to Lilly because she had Ben on watch. Thats just tempting the bandits to attack, why the hell wasn't she or Carely on watch. Both of them look tougher than Ben. It makes as much sense as putting Duck on watch. The group can't afford to be attacked with Ken and Lee gone. Also you blame Kenny for everything that happened in ep 3? Not Ben who made a deal with the bandits and didnt tell anyone. Not Lilly who killed an innocent for no good reason and with no proof? But Kenny? Seems legit
Andy may be stronger than most walkers but definitely not zombie Larry. Also Lee didn't have to smash Andys brains out. Also you think Lee, Kenny and Mark were all exaggerating about how hungry they were. Don't delude yourself. The were all weak from hunger.
Carley was double as useful and half the liability as Lilly. She never went on watch sure. But she went with Lee to the dairy, a potentially dangerous trip. She went back to defend the motel with Ben while everyone else had dinner. She saved Lees life several times and she didn't scare Ben or kill anyone innocent.
Lilly doesn't seem to do much post ep 3. Sits in her room and turns paranoid. Sure she killed one bandit. But without the RV, they are still stuck in the motel with no way out with bandits and walkers. And if she had listened to Kenny, they might not even have been in the motel at that time. And why didn't Lee take Lilly with him on the supply trip. Kenny and Carely could have defended the motel, and been on watch. Seems to me, Lee knew Lilly was a loose cannon and not worth bringing on the trip. We've never seen Lilly fight a walker so maybe she's just a coward.
And in the dairy, you just gambled with Kenny and his family's lives as well as everyone else for some guy who might be alive. You risked failing and condemning Katjaa and Duck to be killed slowly and eaten by cannibals. You were to stupid or too weak to make the right choice, you forced him to kill Larry and shoulder the guilt himself. Of course he hated you or still hates you. It's perfectly understandable.
And in Macon, it's not like he just jumped out a window when you nearly died. He just wasn't sure if he could save you. The room was filling with zombies and he would have been exposed helping you up. He was making the kind of you've you have to make if you want to survive the ZA for long. Better that one survive than none.
Blood loss is not a natural cause. Go back and read Kiel555's post.
I'm sorry but with all you've said in this post it is almost impossible to take your opinion seriously anymore. You're on repeat. You quote my post but you don't actually think about or discuss anything I've said.
I'll just say that you and I have very different understanding of what is weak/strong and right/wrong. It is easier to kill a guy and save your own skin than risk your neck and try to do the right thing.
Say heart attack is a natural cause of death and so he doesn't reanimate. How were Kenny and Lee supposed to know that. Ben didn't say "If you die, you come back. Unless you die of natural causes" Even if Larry was alive in the end, it was still the right choice with the information the characters had. I wouldn't count on Lee or Kenny having read that book. And this is all assuming the book and game go together.
Way to be condescending and just hide behind "Oh well, you said that before, so I won't reply"
I set out each paragraph to match with your own and I address each of you're points. Please don't insult me by suggesting I just copy and paste my arguments. Seems to me you just have no rebuke.
Sure risking youre own life to do what you think is the right thing is fine. But you cross the line when you risk not only you and Lilly who agree with that, but also Kenny and Duck and Katjaa and Carely and Ben. The last four wouldnt exactly get good deaths either, but you seem to not care about that.
In this game I only have one playthrough going. I've not done like others and tried every option available to see what's different and what else the characters say. I don't have a good Lee, bad Lee or silent Lee...just one Lee.
I make split second decisions and live with the consequences. On more than one occasion I was tempted to go back and make different choices but I didn't. When I first met Lilly I said things that I wish now I had not said and joined Kenny in undermining Lilly as well. To my credit I began treating her like a member of my group and tried to help her when I could as I would do for anyone in my group.
When Kenny demanded that I not stay neutral and take a side I chose Lilly. Because of this choice, I began talking with Lilly and spending time with her. That conversation with her by the gazebo I learned a lot about Larry and why he is the way he is. Learned a lot about Lilly too.
In the meat locker, I knew the risk to Lee and Clem and did agree with Kenny that the risk of Larry reanimating was indeed great the consequences severe. But when Lilly called for aid it was a friend asking me for help. A friend is someone who you take risks for even at great personal risk. I have benefited from my friends who may or may not have known the risks but still helped. Clem in fighting Sandra, Carley at the drugstore, in the drugstore, at the motel when Travis reanimated. I'm in a group that takes risks for their friends and that's why I chose the group rather than Kenny and his family only.
Kenny did what he did because he has no friends. Only his family matters to him. It began with leaving Shawn to die, then with killing Larry and continues now with leaving Lee to die two time at last count.
lol, if Im being small minded, you saying men and women are equal in every single way is flat out naive.
I also fully agree with what Kiel555 said.
Oh no, there are more than enough differences to make me quite glad I'm female. Cosmo? Idiot.
First small minded, now idiot...is someone losing a grip on their position?
Look, you use the right tool for the job, simple as that. If I want to put a nail into wood, I use a hammer not a soup ladle.
Ok so it's 'small minded', 'idiot' and we can now add 'loser'. Fair to say you've no more argument at this point. Oh, and do try your best to keep those emotions in check, mud-slinging is the 1st sign of a losing battle.
This started when your heated enemy made a valid point. That the men go out and do what they have traditionally been doing since we came out of the trees, thousands of years ago.
You argued that was somehow 'outdated', I made a simple statement that you twisted into a sexist connotation.
When I backed it up you returned with insults and weak follow-ups.
Short of you explaining how it 'leads me around' I'd say this convo is over and I'll see you on the next battlefield.
This was your valid point? Very intelligent.
Apparently it was a follow up to your "intelligent" remark.
Which was a follow up to yours.
There was nothing wrong with my remark.
Kiel555, that's correct. We need some fresh blood to hate on Kenny
Just a curious question... who did you all ask for support during the dinner scene in ep. 2?
Kenny, grab the gun!
Lilly, grab the knife!
Clem, run!
Fixed that for you.
I understand youre reasoning but i believe in the ZA to survive to have to think survival. Seeing youre friend in trouble hurts but would he/she want you to endanger to rest of the group to help them? The ability to harden youre heart to cries of help is what makes the difference between life and death. Lily wanted to not help Ben and the legless guy, and kick them out to die in the woods, so in this case the two are not so different. The only difference is that Kenny can apply the same survivor logic to people he knows well, he has that strength. Maybe its because he has no friends, or maybe he just simply prioritises himself and his family over all else. I dont blame him for that to be honest. Also people dont seem to blame Larry for only caring about his family and dont mind him trying to kill Duck, but when Kenny does it, suddenly he's and asshole. Not to mention Kenny never punched you into a room full of zombies. Honestly i dont really mind Larry, i think i got the same conversation at the gazebo. But why cant Kenny feel the same about his family?
With Shawn, Kenny did grab Duck and GTFO. But he had no idea what was going on, for all he knew walkers were approaching from all sides and the farm was falling. It wouldnt take much for a whole group of zombies to hear the screams and approach. And if that was happening, he would need to get in the pickup truck and GTFO as fast as possible.
A second point is that at the end of the day, i believe the risk was not worth the reward. If you cant harden youre heart to cries of help, then sorry but you're Lee risks everyone elses lives as well as others in these situations. Also always seemed really arrogant to save one man at the risk of the rest. And its not like you even had their opinion, Carely and Duck and Katjaa and Ben didnt know the risks with the cannibals, if you all had died in the meat locker, they would have had no help and would have been very vulnerable. You want to risk 4 people getting slowly eaten alive by cannibals and waiting (hell hoping) for death to save the life of one guy? And sorry but none of youre "I help my friends" examples even come close to the risks in the meat locker. Risks of not just death but a horrific agonising drawn out one.
I've also already been through why Kenny didnt help Lee twice, can you please just look up my earlier posts on that and argue about them? Pretty please? :P
I told Clem to run. I think she tried but when she looked left and right she was kinds trapped. Then one of the brothers grabbed her...
Sure but in this story it's about group survival not individual survival. Otherwise, Lee would have thanked Clem for her help and been on his way without her. A story about Lee and what he's done to survive in a ZA. No friends, no group, no risks taken to help anyone... just survival where it is every man for himself and the ends justify the means.
That's what Kenny's story was according to Kat. He did not help anyone from Atlanta to Hershal's Farm. They saw plenty of people who needed help and even ran over a few but Kenny just kept on driving.
Survival is fine but it has its consequences if you have a family and friends. Those consequences could be the loss of your family and friends. Why, because they may not approve of your actions. Even view them as unbecoming of a husband, a friend and a man.
Granted, acting with some dignity will put you at increased risk. But if remaining the man your wife fell in love with and being considered honorable by your friends entails too much risk to your survival then yes you are better off without them.
No offence but it seems kind of hypocritical to talk about group survival and then defend the decision that puts the entire group in danger. :P
And personally I think Kenny was right to be suspicious of strangers and refuse to make/join a group. At the start he was acting on instinct. Get him and his family from danger. I can't really blame Kenny for not trusting anyone at the start either, it only takes one crazy guy who wants their car and supplies or early bandit to finish them all. I mean, it didn't take long for people to start killing each other, Shawn tells you about the guy who shot a kid and we see
Bandits in ep 2. Also Its a large step from not joining a group to becoming a "end justify means" bandit kind of guy. There are good arguments for not making/joining groups. I think after getting help from Hershel and talking to Lee, he became more trusting anyway, since he sticks with the group for a while.
I have yet to see Kenny do anything that truly makes me doubt him though I do agree survival and what he has done changed him. He admits it himself. However I've yet to see anything to make him truly horrible. He has become tougher, hard hearted sure but it's not like he's a cold blooded killer like she who shall remain nameless.
I would say that destroying the groups morale can be a much bigger danger than some walkers.
Have you seen the TV show's season 3 phrase "Fight the dead, FEAR the living".
You say that Kenny was a toughen survivor and all, and I would've been the first one to admit that, had he finished Duck right away. He knew there was no cure and yet he let Duck stay with them for like 10 hours after he was bitten. Had Duck turned while they were in the RV, he would bite not only Katjaa and Kenny, but the rest as well. Lilly was cuffed/missing, Carley/Doug dead and Lee/Clem were asleep. Ben was with a gun but... he's Ben. Duck was a quite big threat and yet he didn't do anything about it. I guess he's tough as long as it is not his family.
The entire group has always been in danger. As an individual you are in grave danger in this ZA. By being in a group, an attempt to mitigate this danger is made by pooling resources and skills in the yet to be proven theory that this will ensure your survival. But you are not out of danger. In the story, our group was selected by cannibals as ripe for the pickings. No offense either but when cannibals have preselected you for their next meal and you're currently in their meatlocker, trying to save Larry is not putting the "presently safe" group in "danger".
I think we were all fortunate that Hershal owned that farm and not Kenny. Why did Kenny stop? Was it because Hershal needed help and Kenny came to his aid? Kenny needed help. A safe place to hold up, rest and repair his truck. Good thing Hershal is a better man than Kenny. You know, it only takes one crazy person, a stranger, to put your daughters who are upstairs in danger right?
I've seen plenty that makes Kenny horrible. But that's the great thing about this story, a few different choices and rather than join in the madness you get to see Kenny implode all on his own. He's a pitiful sight in my game. Good thing he does not need friends or a group. I'm not sure how he's going to survive on his own but then again that's not my problem.
The group is always in a bit of danger. But in circumstances like the dairy, the danger is so extreme that taking chances should be out of the question. There's no way Kenny or Lee or Lilly could take the cannibals on solo, and Duck was looking pretty out of it after getting on the RV after being bitten once. The chances of casualties were too high already IMO, and to risk our lives for someone who could already be dead, in those circumstances, seemed unwise to me.
I agree that group morality is important but at the end of the
it should be the groups survival you are mainly concerned about. I have no repect for anyone who would put their own morality in front of others lives. What good is group morale or morals, if the group gets wiped out?
And I would have thought Kenny was a monster if he had immediately given up on Duck and killed him. And I would have thought Lilly a monster if she immediately gave up on Larry. There's tough and then there's just heartless. I dont blame Lilly for not giving up on her dad but at the end of the day, you weigh the risks and make the call, and Larry was a larger threat in the meatlocker. I would type out why but i have already done so lime 20000 times.
With Duck, we already know its not the bite that turns you, it's when you die. I trusted Kat to shout out when or just before Duck died as she did.
I don't blame Kenny for not immediately giving up on Duck like I didn't Lilly.
Killing Larry put them out of "Immediate danger of inevitable death" and that gives them more time to work things out. Saying that they should help Larry because cannibals are outside anyway seems like giving up, and sure they are always in danger. But that's no excuse to make the choice that ups the risk of everyone dieing.
I don't think the Hershel argument doesn't work well because he obviously has no idea how bad things are, unlike Kenny. And you could argue than accepting those strangers led to Shawn's death. I appreciate Hershels kindness but I wouldn't have blamed him for telling us to GTFO his land when we first met. Just like I don't blame Kenny's family for not giving help. It's also still a lot kinder than Lilly wanting us to leave Ben and legless guy outside camp to get eaten.
Also I don't believe in calling someone horrible because they look out for themselves and their family first.
Duck was bitten in ep.3. The bite kills you and that might happen really fast. Turning after a bite death could take less than a minute. Leaving Duck in the RV was immediate threat as well. Katjaa could've fallen asleep for 1 minute and that could've been the time when Duck dies, turns and bites somebody. Actually even if she doesn't fall asleep, if Duck dies in her arms she might not have the strength to speak or act before he turns and bites somebody else.
I understand why Kenny didn't throw him out of course, but he was very quick to kill Larry. I can't accept his survival mentality when he acts when he doesn't care about people but chickens when it comes to his family. To me this makes him a coward.
Make no mistake, Duck was not a lesser threat than Larry was.
As for Ben and the teacher, Lilly says it very well "They are not responsible for every struggling survivor out there". The group was already starving so it wasn't that she didn't want to help, it is just that she had her group to take care.
To me Kenny was once again a hypocrite there. This is like the second time he says that unlike Lilly, he tries to help people. However, if you do not side with him in the meat locker he leaves you to die twice. Even if I do not agree with him, I'm not his enemy, yet he doesn't move his finger to save me. He also tells you to leave a girl get eaten so he can make it easier for himself.
And Wrighty, please don't mention your burning building argument again, because it is nothing like it. If he is the person he claims to be, if he can help you if you're his buddy and leave you to die if you're just a group member then that reveals enough about what kind of person he is.
"Danger of inevitable death" is what i said :P
If Larry turns, then they are all screwed and if you cant accept that, then you're deluding yourself. Not risking everyones lives for one guy is simple survival 101. And i dont see not being able to immediately give up on youre family and then kill them making you a coward. If that was the case, Lilly was a coward as she didnt give up on Larry. And before you say "But bite means he will DEFINETELY turn into a zombie", remember that these characters still know very little about the virus. Maybe a small number are immune, maybe it doesnt affect kids?
Also i would have been suprised if Katjaa was able to sleep after what had happened. The adrenaline and holding her dieing son in her arms, not to mention her wound? I would be suprised if she was able to sleep.
And i post this time and time again but it doesnt seem to sink it. Sure Duck was a danger but he wasnt half a danger as Larry was. Im writing this down ONE MORE TIME :P
1.Ben and Lee (I think) had guns. Or even if one person had a gun, it would have been a simple matter for Ben to pass the gun over to Lee or for him to shoot zombie Duck himself as he eats his mum and then finish her off. If she falls asleep, at least the screams will wake everyone and Kenny will notice if he turns aswell. In the meatlocker, no one had any weapons and so the situation was alot more dangerous. And as far as i know, no one inside the meatlocker were ninja's or capable of killing people with their bare hands. And i know you want to type "But Kenny could have stood over Larry while she tried to save him" but i have already been over this. Zombies tend to leap up and standing close over Larry would have put Kenny in danger aswell. Not to mention, a salt lick isnt a efficient weapon and missing with it could just annoy Larry and get his attention. And like you said, what if people get bitten and then die and turn really quick. Larry bites Lilly who quickly turns while Lee tries to fight Larry and they all get eaten. Im using youre own argument against you :P
2. Duck is alot smaller and weaker. That could make all the difference if Lee or someone else has to hold him off with their bare hands for a certain time. Larry was huge and strong.
3.They can at least get the hell out of the RV if he turns. If Larry turned in the meatlocker, they had no where to go and would have not been able to run.
4. The worst that can happen is they all get bitten. I know this sounds bad but the risks for Duck and Katjaa and Carley and Ben was that they get slowly torn apart and eaten alive by the cannibals. Makes getting bitten seem alot nicer doesnt it?
With those four reasons, its pretty plain to see that Duck was not as much a threat as Larry was and i hope to god i never have to type this again.
With the two times he leaves you to die, ill put it this way and keep it short. You just gambled Kenny and his families lives for the life of some old bastard, who when he had a heart attack last time, we had to go get him medicine to survive. Also he is a old bastard because you go get him medicine and he then thanks you by PUNCHING YOU IN THE FACE AND LEAVING YOU TO DIE. And its not like Kat and Duck get quick and painless deaths either, as i have been over before. So you can hardly blame him for hating you at that moment. You just risked the lives of the only people left in the world he truly cares about and you risked them getting eaten slowly by cannibals.
And i have already been over the Macon situation. You're Lee is not his buddy because of what you did in the meatlocker and he is hardly going to run further into a room filling with zombies for a guy who he doesnt even like. People are too used to how in games, you cannot really see the risks. If Lee ran into a room full of zombies to save Kenny, you know he would survive and everything would be fine. Why? Because its a game and needs to continue. And so you expect the same for Kenny. But a true ZA would force you to be alot stronger than just that. You cant just run in and save every person, even if he is youre best friend or even wife and expect to last long. Especially if you run to save everyone, including people who arent even you're friends.
And i like how you quote "not responsible for every struggling survivor out there" and then blame Kenny for wanting to leave a girl to get eaten. It was the smart choice, the girl was already dead and we needed the supplies. And whats to stop the walkers getting attracted by the gunshot and then coming and killing us? You obviously dont seem to care about slow and painful deaths anyway, you sure gambled with them in the meatlocker.
Duck was bitten, Ben didn't knew, Lee was asleep, Kenny is his father and wouldn't do shit. If Duck turned... it was over for at least half of them. You can make crazy theories as much as you want but that doesn't change the situation that you're super biased.
You may not agree with me but I'm consistent and I don't try to create impossible scenarios to justify my choices.
I saved Duck at Hershel's farm because he was a child.
I didn't side with Larry in the drugstore.
I supported Kenny in the Lilly argument because I chopped the teacher's leg.
I didn't shot Jolene.
I let Irene shot herself.
Until that point Kenny was a friend whom I had helped a lot, because I fed his son once again in ep. 2
I tries to save Larry.
Kenny backstabbed me and left me for dead.
I killed both brothers because I was sending a message.
Lilly saved me and became a friend whom I started to trust.
I stole the supplies.
I shot the poor girl in ep.3
I stood by Lilly's side because after Kenny left me for dead one more time in Macon.
I confessed to everybody because Carley made me do it.
Lilly shot Carley, but I took her in.
I didn't yell at Kenny to stop the RV cause I knew he wouldn't listen anyway.
I decided to leave with Lilly cause I didn't want anything to do with this group anymore.
I shot Duck.
You can make your wild speculations and theories but don't justify Kenny betrayal please. He may be an ally in yours, but in mine he's a total coward and an asshole. And no, I'm not the reason. He is.
It's easy to just act as if the decisions of the group do not concern you and be the cool guy, but that doesn't really make you superior. Especially in a ZA.
To support you, maybe. To make executive decisions... not really.
Giving up? Lilly and Lee were actively working on achieving the best possible outcome, however remote, that Larry would survive and we would all escape from the cannibals. Thats' not giving up.
Kenny was not a team player and folded under the pressure. He made the short term situation and long term survival more dangerous because the group actions became individual actions. Lilly was in shock, Lee was pissed and Kenny could not count on Lee. So who had to take on Danny solo? Lee.
On the other hand, Larry could have survived. Or the group could have dispatched walker Larry (I would have like to have done that by the way...epic fight:D) and then the group would have found a way out of the meat locker and attacked Danny as a group.
There is also the long term effect. What if we actually survived the meat locker and made it out. Kenny's way - group destroyed. Lee's way - group intact.
Kenny is horrible mainly due to his follow on actions, post meat locker, that you may not see in your game but I do in my game. I have not taken my decision to expel both Kenny and Ben as group members lightly (I've done this as best the game will allow. I've not spoken to Ben since he admitted to being the traitor and only interact with Kenny if required by the game to move the story along). They have simply demonstrated that they are not suited for the complex nature of group dynamics. Maybe they will do better as lone surviviors. I do believe we are stonger as a group than as individuals. But as I'm sure Kenny would agree, sometimes the risk outweighs the benefit.:)
Crazy and wild speculation from the guy who thinks Lee and Kenny (Lilly will be too shocked to fight) can kill zombie Larry with no weapons and in a enclosed space? :P
Ben may not have known but he had a gun. Ben sees walker, passes gun to Lee or shoots Duck himself. NOT a impossible scenario. Especially as Duck would have been easy to killl while he finished off Katjaa. Lee would have been woken by Katjaa's screams no matter what.
And losing half the group is hell of a lot better than losing the entire group. Especially if two of the group (maybe four if the cannibals get em) get slowly eaten alive until they get the quick release of death. You risked a kid getting a death a hell of alot worse than getting eaten by walkers.
Making a nice little list of youre decisions isnt a good argument but nice try. And Carely made you confess? More like, you knew Lilly was about to kill someone or at least do something very rash and you decided to take the fall as Lilly likes you. Very noble but if Lilly was reasonable and realised she had no proof, you wouldnt have had to confess. Dont go blaming Carely. Also says what kind of person Lilly was, to steal the RV. Way to destroy their only chance of survival if they couldnt get the train to work. AND i thought Lilly was youre friend aswell :P
Also the key point in that was when you saved Larry. At that point you risked his life, and his families lifes (they would get eaten by cannibals slowly, die in a way that would make them want to get their head smashed in. Pretty sure i keep mentioning this). You risked the lives of the only people he really has left in the world for some old bastard, who tried to murder you after you got him medicine. Im not suprised he didnt forgive you for that. Im not suprised he didnt look at you trapped in a room full of approaching zombies and didnt immediatly rush in to save youre life. You Lilly fans always seem to glorify Larry aswell, do you think he would have saved you're life in Macon?
Simple calling my scenarios impossible isnt quite good enough and calling him a coward and asshole isnt one either. If he was a coward he would never have volunteered for the supply trip. And i've already been over why he isnt an asshole.