Well first of all, I was being sarcastic. (I guess that doesn't translate well to the internet) second of all, those were just 2 vague names. I could have named anyone :P
It wouldn't be the first time a sweet, hopeful song was used in a terrible, tense situation to evoke an emotional response. It's called juxtaposition. In this case, you're taking something that should be happy, and placing it in a situation of fear and anxiety. Give the song a little history to Clem and the OP is right, you could have a really bittersweet, heart-breaking moment on your hands. And The Walking Dead is all about that.
BTW, here's an example of what I'm talking about from the movie Good Morning Vietnam. It's one of the classic montage sequences in cinema and demonstrates juxtaposition between scene and song. Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World" playing over same haunting images of Vietnam. (Great movie by the way).
*******WARNING********
This is from an R-rated movie. If you want to get an idea of what I'm talking about, you're fine up until about the :45 second mark. After that, some images are potentially disturbing. WATCH AT YOUR OWN RISK.
During a last stand Clem breaks into singing this..? Wow omfg I just imagined her breaking into saying one, nothing wrong with me after they see if shes ok in the shed and then killing everyone in her vicinity. Potential deleted choice?
I think this could idea could easily fit TWD. As one poster said earlier, it makes for effective juxtaposition; a sweet melody sung by a girl, (of course, right?) to accentuate the fact that beauty is rare and fragile in the game's universe. I get it.
My problem with this idea is that it's a little tropey. It's a rather common thing to include songs, particularly songs sung by young girls, in depressing or unsettling media just for that emotional punch brought on by the contrast. To point to a recent example, the Hunger Games movie does this. It's also extremely common in horror movies.
So, if this were to happen in TWD I'd roll my eyes. Not because it doesn't fit, but because at this point it feels contrived to me, and a little cheap. I don't expect anyone to share this outlook, but every bit of pleasure I get from TWD's story has to do with unpredictablity. Shocking situations, sudden character shifts, and hard, unprecedented choices are what I love about TWD. I feel that a heartfelt musical interlude will bring it closer to being contrived, and for that reason I can't personally support the idea.
I see your point, and it is done a lot, and the fact that it still gets done with little to no repercussions and for the most part comes with positive reviews, to me, says that it works. The shocking and unpredictable scenes only bear so much weight due to scenes like these, calm, meaningful, contrite, personal, and loving. If they had none of these scene types in season one, we wouldn't have cared for any of the characters, we wouldn't have cared about Lee nearly as much as we did, and character deaths would be... boring and repetitive, no matter how shocking they were.
I think this could idea could easily fit TWD. As one poster said earlier, it makes for effective juxtaposition; a sweet melody sung by a girl,… more (of course, right?) to accentuate the fact that beauty is rare and fragile in the game's universe. I get it.
My problem with this idea is that it's a little tropey. It's a rather common thing to include songs, particularly songs sung by young girls, in depressing or unsettling media just for that emotional punch brought on by the contrast. To point to a recent example, the Hunger Games movie does this. It's also extremely common in horror movies.
So, if this were to happen in TWD I'd roll my eyes. Not because it doesn't fit, but because at this point it feels contrived to me, and a little cheap. I don't expect anyone to share this outlook, but every bit of pleasure I get from TWD's story has to do with unpredictablity. Shocking situations, sudden character shifts, and hard, unprecedented choices are … [view original content]
what if instead of it being a song Clem sings, they play an old record in a place that still has some power and then the record catches and zombies attack
what if instead of it being a song Clem sings, they play an old record in a place that still has some power and then the record catches and zombies attack
woo
While Melissa Hutchison had a wonderful singing voice as Trixie in Back to the Future having Clementine singing just wouldn't suit with The Walking Dead universe in my book.
While I don't watch the show anymore, with the comments going on about Beth singing also I'm not too keen on the idea on her singing at all even. Still though, I won't get mad if she does. It would really be out-of-place I'd say, but it would depend on how and when they use it. Don't see Clem having many scenarios where singing would be appropriate though, especially in the second season.
View the above post for an excellent example. I don't watch the show much, but from the other posts it seems it's hard to compare the situations in which Beth sings and the aforementioned example.
While Melissa Hutchison had a wonderful singing voice as Trixie in Back to the Future having Clementine singing just wouldn't suit with The Wa… morelking Dead universe in my book.
While I don't watch the show anymore, with the comments going on about Beth singing also I'm not too keen on the idea on her singing at all even. Still though, I won't get mad if she does. It would really be out-of-place I'd say, but it would depend on how and when they use it. Don't see Clem having many scenarios where singing would be appropriate though, especially in the second season.
Yeah, I read them before I posted that comment, I was just expressing my opinion. I never said it COULDN'T work mind you. Telltale do like to surprise us though so I'm not holding it an impossibility.
View the above post for an excellent example. I don't watch the show much, but from the other posts it seems it's hard to compare the situations in which Beth sings and the aforementioned example.
Of course, I agree TWD needs touching scenes as well. It's not those scenes that I take issue with, but using something like a lullaby as a vehicle for those touching moments.
I'm not one for embracing something just because millions of others embrace it. Things like lullabies in depressing environments can work... And they can also be worked into the ground. Everyone will have a different line in the sand for where the tropishness overwhelms the impact, and for me it came a year or two ago.
I can absolutely see why an idea like this would be desired in TWD, and more power to you in finding others who feel the same. It wouldn't be my cup of tea, but hey, that's the wonder of subjectivity, isn't it?
I see your point, and it is done a lot, and the fact that it still gets done with little to no repercussions and for the most part comes with … morepositive reviews, to me, says that it works. The shocking and unpredictable scenes only bear so much weight due to scenes like these, calm, meaningful, contrite, personal, and loving. If they had none of these scene types in season one, we wouldn't have cared for any of the characters, we wouldn't have cared about Lee nearly as much as we did, and character deaths would be... boring and repetitive, no matter how shocking they were.
So, you say it can work great, but since millions of others have embraced it, it's bad? Hipster mentality? :P
But on a serious note, TTG has proven they can make an entirely overused concept interestingly original (like Clem falling asleep in Lee's lap with the intense jump-scare of a zombie Clementine).
What's wrong with using a song as a vehicle? As long as it strokes the strings of my heart harp I am ok with... just about anything. Not to mention all, or nearly all, heart wrenching scenes have a driving force behind them, why does the mode of transportation matter?
And I do agree they would need to be careful with the scene, it would either be a fantastic accomplishment and make me cry a vast river of shameful but manly tears, or a tragic waste of screen time, but I have little doubts in TTG after seeing their awe inspiring works.
One more thing, I am unfamiliar with the word tropishness, can you shed some light? (I couldn't remark on the last part of that paragraph because I didn't understand it.) What happened a year or two ago? No offense intended.
Side note, don't take this as me trying to push my point on you, I just enjoy trading thoughts and ideas.
Of course, I agree TWD needs touching scenes as well. It's not those scenes that I take issue with, but using something like a lullaby as a ve… morehicle for those touching moments.
I'm not one for embracing something just because millions of others embrace it. Things like lullabies in depressing environments can work... And they can also be worked into the ground. Everyone will have a different line in the sand for where the tropishness overwhelms the impact, and for me it came a year or two ago.
I can absolutely see why an idea like this would be desired in TWD, and more power to you in finding others who feel the same. It wouldn't be my cup of tea, but hey, that's the wonder of subjectivity, isn't it?
If that's what you take away from "I'm not one for embracing something just because millions of others embrace it", I suppose you can go right ahead and call me a hipster.
I'm not sure what trope you're referring to with Clem falling asleep in Lee's lap and the all-in-his-head jump scare. Could you elaborate?
There's nothing innately wrong with songs in media. But the specific combination of a song being sung by a young girl to accentuate a grim environment is, at this point, a trope. It's been used in several forms of media, and as a method of providing contrast it could be viewed as something that's wearing a little thin.
To me, TTG's capability as game developers doesn't even figure in. I'm sure they'd portray the kind of scene you envision as well as they possibly could, which historically has proven to be pretty damn good. It's the content of the scene itself that isn't to my taste; namely, the exact combination I give in the paragraph above.
"Tropishness" isn't really a word; I used it in lieu of a real one. It basically just means the level of validity someone would have in considering something a trope. For example, "riding off into the sunset" would have a high tropishness, because it's played out in many pieces of media.
What happened one or two years ago is that I saw the "young girl singing to accentuate a grim environment" play out in various media enough times that I started to think it was becoming a little too common for my comfort.
Like I said before, everybody has different thresholds for when something like this becomes too overdone. I don't dislike it because it's popular; I dislike it because its popularity can discourage writers from pursuing what I would consider to be more innovative scenes... Like new ways of drawing attention to the contrast between grim environments and the last shreds of hope that exist within them, rather than using girl + song + grim backdrop again.
The Sam scene in S2E1 is a good example of the kind of scene I want to flourish in TWD. There are tons of ways of making the uncertainty of a dark, unfair gameworld clear from a storytelling perspective. But luring in the player with a friendly dog companion, encouraging them to interact with it (ie. play fetch, pet it), only to have it turn on the player and shatter their dreams of a canine partner to get across the theme of uncertainty? That's inspired; I've never seen that done before. And, if possible, I'd want every episode of TWD to be an unbroken chain of unpredictable, never-before-seen scenes like that.
So, you say it can work great, but since millions of others have embraced it, it's bad? Hipster mentality? :P
But on a serious note, TTG ha… mores proven they can make an entirely overused concept interestingly original (like Clem falling asleep in Lee's lap with the intense jump-scare of a zombie Clementine).
What's wrong with using a song as a vehicle? As long as it strokes the strings of my heart harp I am ok with... just about anything. Not to mention all, or nearly all, heart wrenching scenes have a driving force behind them, why does the mode of transportation matter?
And I do agree they would need to be careful with the scene, it would either be a fantastic accomplishment and make me cry a vast river of shameful but manly tears, or a tragic waste of screen time, but I have little doubts in TTG after seeing their awe inspiring works.
One more thing, I am unfamiliar with the word tropishness, can you shed some light? (I couldn't remar… [view original content]
The over-used scene I was refering to is when Clem crawls into Lee's lap in the RV. A child cuddling with their 'guardian' has been done so many countless times to give the "adorable" feeling to a scene, which it did, and was rather good but completely reused, until Clem tried to bite Lee in the face.
Geez these are getting long. So to clear up, the sole reason you don't feel this scene would do justice to the game is because you want every scene to be completely new? Great in theory, very hard to put into practice. For one, coming up with completely unused ideas from thin air is an extremely hard thing to do. The bigger concern I have about this is they run the risk of pushing it too far, trying to push the bounderies is good but you run the risk of overshooting your goal. They need something to fall back on, a scene everyone can enjoy that is based in tested and proven positive results. Many shows (easier for me to consider shows rather than games) "push the bounderies" and end up confusing their followers and losing interest by jumping from one amazing, fantastic, revolutionary, ground breaking thing to the next.
"I dislike it because its popularity can discourage writers from pursuing what I would consider to be more innovative scenes... ," to me you don't need a new concept to create an innovative scene, like they did with Lee and Clem in the van, alterations can be made to "tropes" to make them shiny knew with an illustrious glow.
The Sam scene was great, and it was a very interesting way to push the theme of trust and mistrust, but right after we have the knight in shining armor come to the rescue, not really a trope but it isn't at all innovative or creative or even very interesting, but it gave us hope, it made us happy and invested in the man who was carrying us through the woods. (Sam foreshadowing mistrust here wink wink nudge nudge)
I am stealing your word, tropishness® is now mine. Each time you use the word you owe me $5.
A good voice is not needed for something amazing. Sure, Ellie's voice fit in fine in Bioshock Infinite, but the Walking Dead is more human.
The scene would be much better and much more believable if Clementine's voice was shaky and a bit out of tune. Kind of like Roger Waters (If you listen to Pink Floyd). The albums "The Wall" and "Final Cut" had a lot of tracks focused on his father, who'd died in WWII when he was little. His high notes were piercing and shaky, but that made the songs so much more tragic.
Here's one of my favorites. It explains his fathers death and the fall of C Company to the German's Tiger Tanks. When The Tigers Broke Free
A child cuddling their guardian isn't a trope; that's just what children with guardians do. That's almost like trying to say eating is a trope.
Tropes always have a message behind them that's clear; something they're trying to convey. You can guess that Telltale had Clem cuddle Lee to be "cute", but that's not necessarily the case; they could also have done it simply because things were quiet in the RV, and Clem as a part of her character would take advantage of this and seek comfort from Lee simply because of the affection they, and most children/guardians, share.
Tropes usually have a specific goal whenever they're used. "Riding off into the sunset" exists to imply an end where everything that's happened in the story will lead to a brighter future. "Girl singing in grim environment" is there to draw attention to the last, fleeting good things left in a broken world.
Ideally, yes, I would like every scene to be tropeless (you can have that word too ). I know that will never happen, as there are even tropes at work in TWD Season 1, but I will definitely always speak out against a new trope being included in the series if I can. I feel that Telltale is at their strongest when blazing new trails in storytelling, so I would want them to have every opportunity to do so.
My personal view of media is that it's better and better the more ambitious it is, so long as that ambition doesn't cause it to suffer in other ways, (such as lower production values, or a rushed ending and stuff like that). I want TWD to always be pushing the envelope, and I never want to feel comfortable or like I've seen all this before. I feel that not pushing the boundaries because you can possibly overshoot them is a self-defeating sentiment.
I still don't consider Clem cuddling Lee a trope, but I'd say tropes can never be truly innovative by definition. They're a replay of something that's been done before, being done again to convey the exact same message. I can see them being somewhat innovative if the trope is drastically warped or turned on its head, but that simply isn't possible for every trope. A girl singing softly in a grim environment like TWD's will always bring to mind the same old themes, no matter how amazingly they portray it. The presentation might be different, but the message would remain the same.
A "knight in shining armor" is a trope, but there's more to it than simply saving someone. It suggests a morally upstanding person saving someone more defenceless; usually a love interest. And I wouldn't call Luke morally upstanding, considering how little we've seen of his true nature and the fact that he throws Clem on the ground at the first hint of fear.
The over-used scene I was refering to is when Clem crawls into Lee's lap in the RV. A child cuddling with their 'guardian' has been done so ma… moreny countless times to give the "adorable" feeling to a scene, which it did, and was rather good but completely reused, until Clem tried to bite Lee in the face.
Geez these are getting long. So to clear up, the sole reason you don't feel this scene would do justice to the game is because you want every scene to be completely new? Great in theory, very hard to put into practice. For one, coming up with completely unused ideas from thin air is an extremely hard thing to do. The bigger concern I have about this is they run the risk of pushing it too far, trying to push the bounderies is good but you run the risk of overshooting your goal. They need something to fall back on, a scene everyone can enjoy that is based in tested and proven positive results. Many shows (easier for me to consider shows rather than… [view original content]
I disagree about the RC scene not being a trope, I don't recall ever seeing it before in media where it wasn't trying to give the impression of 'that child is cute'. People eat in media all the time, for very numerous reason, the same cannot be said for the other and so I don't find them comparable.
Better and more ambitious is another thing I guess we disagree on. I do enjoy seeing new things, but everything being new all at once all the time gets overwhelming and befuddles the fans. I still stand by my reasoning that it's always good to have a scene everyone can relate to and enjoy.
Overshooting boundaries was probably bad wording on my part, but the sentiment behind the statement rings true. (Going to far an losing your base.)
Luke, at that point in time, was a stereotypical knight in shining armor, with a morally upstanding personality saving a defenseless other (Clem), and it wasn't until they changed the trope and showed his fearful side that he was anything but. That, to me, is another example of twisting a trope into something new.
In anycase my argument has run its course and if you reply I doubtfully will, been interesting though.
A child cuddling their guardian isn't a trope; that's just what children with guardians do. That's almost like trying to say eating is a trope… more.
Tropes always have a message behind them that's clear; something they're trying to convey. You can guess that Telltale had Clem cuddle Lee to be "cute", but that's not necessarily the case; they could also have done it simply because things were quiet in the RV, and Clem as a part of her character would take advantage of this and seek comfort from Lee simply because of the affection they, and most children/guardians, share.
Tropes usually have a specific goal whenever they're used. "Riding off into the sunset" exists to imply an end where everything that's happened in the story will lead to a brighter future. "Girl singing in grim environment" is there to draw attention to the last, fleeting good things left in a broken world.
Ideally, yes, I would like every scene to be tropeless (you can have t… [view original content]
During a last stand Clem breaks into singing this..? Wow omfg I just imagined her breaking into saying one, nothing wrong with me after they see if shes ok in the shed and then killing everyone in her vicinity. Potential deleted choice?
FYI I made the comment before Viva elaborated on the OP. I don't care if she sings a lullaby to a baby, but bursting out into song for any other reason will be cheesy and pointless. Obviously I am not going to boycott TWD since it is my favorite game series, it was just an exaggeration.
FYI I made the comment before Viva elaborated on the OP. I don't care if she sings a lullaby to a baby, but bursting out into song for any ot… moreher reason will be cheesy and pointless. Obviously I am not going to boycott TWD since it is my favorite game series, it was just an exaggeration.
I disagree about the RC scene not being a trope, I don't recall ever seeing it before in media where it wasn't trying to give the impression o… moref 'that child is cute'. People eat in media all the time, for very numerous reason, the same cannot be said for the other and so I don't find them comparable.
Better and more ambitious is another thing I guess we disagree on. I do enjoy seeing new things, but everything being new all at once all the time gets overwhelming and befuddles the fans. I still stand by my reasoning that it's always good to have a scene everyone can relate to and enjoy.
Overshooting boundaries was probably bad wording on my part, but the sentiment behind the statement rings true. (Going to far an losing your base.)
Luke, at that point in time, was a stereotypical knight in shining armor, with a morally upstanding personality saving a defenseless other (Clem), and it wasn't until they changed the trope and showed his fearfu… [view original content]
Instead of singing, maybe if Clem just hummed an short extract from a song, such as "You are my sunshine",for example. Otherwise, Clem singing? Naah, can't imagine that...
Comments
Well first of all, I was being sarcastic. (I guess that doesn't translate well to the internet) second of all, those were just 2 vague names. I could have named anyone :P
It wouldn't be the first time a sweet, hopeful song was used in a terrible, tense situation to evoke an emotional response. It's called juxtaposition. In this case, you're taking something that should be happy, and placing it in a situation of fear and anxiety. Give the song a little history to Clem and the OP is right, you could have a really bittersweet, heart-breaking moment on your hands. And The Walking Dead is all about that.
BTW, here's an example of what I'm talking about from the movie Good Morning Vietnam. It's one of the classic montage sequences in cinema and demonstrates juxtaposition between scene and song. Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World" playing over same haunting images of Vietnam. (Great movie by the way).
*******WARNING********
This is from an R-rated movie. If you want to get an idea of what I'm talking about, you're fine up until about the :45 second mark. After that, some images are potentially disturbing. WATCH AT YOUR OWN RISK.
During a last stand Clem breaks into singing this..?
Wow omfg I just imagined her breaking into saying one, nothing wrong with me after they see if shes ok in the shed and then killing everyone in her vicinity. Potential deleted choice?
I like this idea.
I think this could idea could easily fit TWD. As one poster said earlier, it makes for effective juxtaposition; a sweet melody sung by a girl, (of course, right?) to accentuate the fact that beauty is rare and fragile in the game's universe. I get it.
My problem with this idea is that it's a little tropey. It's a rather common thing to include songs, particularly songs sung by young girls, in depressing or unsettling media just for that emotional punch brought on by the contrast. To point to a recent example, the Hunger Games movie does this. It's also extremely common in horror movies.
So, if this were to happen in TWD I'd roll my eyes. Not because it doesn't fit, but because at this point it feels contrived to me, and a little cheap. I don't expect anyone to share this outlook, but every bit of pleasure I get from TWD's story has to do with unpredictablity. Shocking situations, sudden character shifts, and hard, unprecedented choices are what I love about TWD. I feel that a heartfelt musical interlude will bring it closer to being contrived, and for that reason I can't personally support the idea.
I see your point, and it is done a lot, and the fact that it still gets done with little to no repercussions and for the most part comes with positive reviews, to me, says that it works. The shocking and unpredictable scenes only bear so much weight due to scenes like these, calm, meaningful, contrite, personal, and loving. If they had none of these scene types in season one, we wouldn't have cared for any of the characters, we wouldn't have cared about Lee nearly as much as we did, and character deaths would be... boring and repetitive, no matter how shocking they were.
what if instead of it being a song Clem sings, they play an old record in a place that still has some power and then the record catches and zombies attack
woo
How would that benefit the story? lol
i dunno
works for fallout.
fallout has radiation zombies. but they aren't slow. they're pretty fast actually.
Oh lol gotcha. Never played Fallout
While Melissa Hutchison had a wonderful singing voice as Trixie in Back to the Future having Clementine singing just wouldn't suit with The Walking Dead universe in my book.
While I don't watch the show anymore, with the comments going on about Beth singing also I'm not too keen on the idea on her singing at all even. Still though, I won't get mad if she does. It would really be out-of-place I'd say, but it would depend on how and when they use it. Don't see Clem having many scenarios where singing would be appropriate though, especially in the second season.
View the above post for an excellent example. I don't watch the show much, but from the other posts it seems it's hard to compare the situations in which Beth sings and the aforementioned example.
Yeah, I read them before I posted that comment, I was just expressing my opinion. I never said it COULDN'T work mind you.
Telltale do like to surprise us though so I'm not holding it an impossibility.
Of course, I agree TWD needs touching scenes as well. It's not those scenes that I take issue with, but using something like a lullaby as a vehicle for those touching moments.
I'm not one for embracing something just because millions of others embrace it. Things like lullabies in depressing environments can work... And they can also be worked into the ground. Everyone will have a different line in the sand for where the tropishness overwhelms the impact, and for me it came a year or two ago.
I can absolutely see why an idea like this would be desired in TWD, and more power to you in finding others who feel the same. It wouldn't be my cup of tea, but hey, that's the wonder of subjectivity, isn't it?
So, you say it can work great, but since millions of others have embraced it, it's bad? Hipster mentality? :P
But on a serious note, TTG has proven they can make an entirely overused concept interestingly original (like Clem falling asleep in Lee's lap with the intense jump-scare of a zombie Clementine).
What's wrong with using a song as a vehicle? As long as it strokes the strings of my heart harp I am ok with... just about anything. Not to mention all, or nearly all, heart wrenching scenes have a driving force behind them, why does the mode of transportation matter?
And I do agree they would need to be careful with the scene, it would either be a fantastic accomplishment and make me cry a vast river of shameful but manly tears, or a tragic waste of screen time, but I have little doubts in TTG after seeing their awe inspiring works.
One more thing, I am unfamiliar with the word tropishness, can you shed some light? (I couldn't remark on the last part of that paragraph because I didn't understand it.) What happened a year or two ago? No offense intended.
Side note, don't take this as me trying to push my point on you, I just enjoy trading thoughts and ideas.
If that's what you take away from "I'm not one for embracing something just because millions of others embrace it", I suppose you can go right ahead and call me a hipster.
I'm not sure what trope you're referring to with Clem falling asleep in Lee's lap and the all-in-his-head jump scare. Could you elaborate?
There's nothing innately wrong with songs in media. But the specific combination of a song being sung by a young girl to accentuate a grim environment is, at this point, a trope. It's been used in several forms of media, and as a method of providing contrast it could be viewed as something that's wearing a little thin.
To me, TTG's capability as game developers doesn't even figure in. I'm sure they'd portray the kind of scene you envision as well as they possibly could, which historically has proven to be pretty damn good. It's the content of the scene itself that isn't to my taste; namely, the exact combination I give in the paragraph above.
"Tropishness" isn't really a word; I used it in lieu of a real one. It basically just means the level of validity someone would have in considering something a trope. For example, "riding off into the sunset" would have a high tropishness, because it's played out in many pieces of media.
What happened one or two years ago is that I saw the "young girl singing to accentuate a grim environment" play out in various media enough times that I started to think it was becoming a little too common for my comfort.
Like I said before, everybody has different thresholds for when something like this becomes too overdone. I don't dislike it because it's popular; I dislike it because its popularity can discourage writers from pursuing what I would consider to be more innovative scenes... Like new ways of drawing attention to the contrast between grim environments and the last shreds of hope that exist within them, rather than using girl + song + grim backdrop again.
The Sam scene in S2E1 is a good example of the kind of scene I want to flourish in TWD. There are tons of ways of making the uncertainty of a dark, unfair gameworld clear from a storytelling perspective. But luring in the player with a friendly dog companion, encouraging them to interact with it (ie. play fetch, pet it), only to have it turn on the player and shatter their dreams of a canine partner to get across the theme of uncertainty? That's inspired; I've never seen that done before. And, if possible, I'd want every episode of TWD to be an unbroken chain of unpredictable, never-before-seen scenes like that.
I would be the happiest man alive!
The over-used scene I was refering to is when Clem crawls into Lee's lap in the RV. A child cuddling with their 'guardian' has been done so many countless times to give the "adorable" feeling to a scene, which it did, and was rather good but completely reused, until Clem tried to bite Lee in the face.
Geez these are getting long. So to clear up, the sole reason you don't feel this scene would do justice to the game is because you want every scene to be completely new? Great in theory, very hard to put into practice. For one, coming up with completely unused ideas from thin air is an extremely hard thing to do. The bigger concern I have about this is they run the risk of pushing it too far, trying to push the bounderies is good but you run the risk of overshooting your goal. They need something to fall back on, a scene everyone can enjoy that is based in tested and proven positive results. Many shows (easier for me to consider shows rather than games) "push the bounderies" and end up confusing their followers and losing interest by jumping from one amazing, fantastic, revolutionary, ground breaking thing to the next.
"I dislike it because its popularity can discourage writers from pursuing what I would consider to be more innovative scenes... ," to me you don't need a new concept to create an innovative scene, like they did with Lee and Clem in the van, alterations can be made to "tropes" to make them shiny knew with an illustrious glow.
The Sam scene was great, and it was a very interesting way to push the theme of trust and mistrust, but right after we have the knight in shining armor come to the rescue, not really a trope but it isn't at all innovative or creative or even very interesting, but it gave us hope, it made us happy and invested in the man who was carrying us through the woods. (Sam foreshadowing mistrust here wink wink nudge nudge)
I am stealing your word, tropishness® is now mine. Each time you use the word you owe me $5.
Instead of Clem singing, I'd like one of the zombies to sing this: Lonely Zombie
If you want clem to do a lullaby then Melissa needs a good voice for singing
From what I understand she does, though, I could be wrong. She doesn't really even need to "sing" per say, just attempt a lullaby for da baby.
A good voice is not needed for something amazing. Sure, Ellie's voice fit in fine in Bioshock Infinite, but the Walking Dead is more human.
The scene would be much better and much more believable if Clementine's voice was shaky and a bit out of tune. Kind of like Roger Waters (If you listen to Pink Floyd). The albums "The Wall" and "Final Cut" had a lot of tracks focused on his father, who'd died in WWII when he was little. His high notes were piercing and shaky, but that made the songs so much more tragic.
Here's one of my favorites. It explains his fathers death and the fall of C Company to the German's Tiger Tanks.
When The Tigers Broke Free
She does. There are the songs she sang in Back to the Future on page 2 of this thread.
A child cuddling their guardian isn't a trope; that's just what children with guardians do. That's almost like trying to say eating is a trope.
Tropes always have a message behind them that's clear; something they're trying to convey. You can guess that Telltale had Clem cuddle Lee to be "cute", but that's not necessarily the case; they could also have done it simply because things were quiet in the RV, and Clem as a part of her character would take advantage of this and seek comfort from Lee simply because of the affection they, and most children/guardians, share.
Tropes usually have a specific goal whenever they're used. "Riding off into the sunset" exists to imply an end where everything that's happened in the story will lead to a brighter future. "Girl singing in grim environment" is there to draw attention to the last, fleeting good things left in a broken world.
Ideally, yes, I would like every scene to be tropeless (you can have that word too
). I know that will never happen, as there are even tropes at work in TWD Season 1, but I will definitely always speak out against a new trope being included in the series if I can. I feel that Telltale is at their strongest when blazing new trails in storytelling, so I would want them to have every opportunity to do so.
My personal view of media is that it's better and better the more ambitious it is, so long as that ambition doesn't cause it to suffer in other ways, (such as lower production values, or a rushed ending and stuff like that). I want TWD to always be pushing the envelope, and I never want to feel comfortable or like I've seen all this before. I feel that not pushing the boundaries because you can possibly overshoot them is a self-defeating sentiment.
I still don't consider Clem cuddling Lee a trope, but I'd say tropes can never be truly innovative by definition. They're a replay of something that's been done before, being done again to convey the exact same message. I can see them being somewhat innovative if the trope is drastically warped or turned on its head, but that simply isn't possible for every trope. A girl singing softly in a grim environment like TWD's will always bring to mind the same old themes, no matter how amazingly they portray it. The presentation might be different, but the message would remain the same.
A "knight in shining armor" is a trope, but there's more to it than simply saving someone. It suggests a morally upstanding person saving someone more defenceless; usually a love interest. And I wouldn't call Luke morally upstanding, considering how little we've seen of his true nature and the fact that he throws Clem on the ground at the first hint of fear.
I disagree about the RC scene not being a trope, I don't recall ever seeing it before in media where it wasn't trying to give the impression of 'that child is cute'. People eat in media all the time, for very numerous reason, the same cannot be said for the other and so I don't find them comparable.
Better and more ambitious is another thing I guess we disagree on. I do enjoy seeing new things, but everything being new all at once all the time gets overwhelming and befuddles the fans. I still stand by my reasoning that it's always good to have a scene everyone can relate to and enjoy.
Overshooting boundaries was probably bad wording on my part, but the sentiment behind the statement rings true. (Going to far an losing your base.)
Luke, at that point in time, was a stereotypical knight in shining armor, with a morally upstanding personality saving a defenseless other (Clem), and it wasn't until they changed the trope and showed his fearful side that he was anything but. That, to me, is another example of twisting a trope into something new.
In anycase my argument has run its course and if you reply I doubtfully will, been interesting though.
Dude, the guy looked like Chum-Lee from Pawn Stars in the intro.
yeah great idea make the game even sadder just kidding awsome idea but really sad if thats gonna happen and what about the license of the music?
I hope that was a joke. If not, why don't you do us all a favour and boycott this comments section too. Maybe you can boycott air next.
No insulting other members, tooducks.
It's not easy to pull off, and why would Clem sing? That would attract way too much unnecessary attention from either bandits or zombies.
Sorry, wasn't thinking. You should make insulting Telltale against the rules too; that would be hysterical.
And Rebecca will tell clem to shut the f*** up.
FYI I made the comment before Viva elaborated on the OP. I don't care if she sings a lullaby to a baby, but bursting out into song for any other reason will be cheesy and pointless. Obviously I am not going to boycott TWD since it is my favorite game series, it was just an exaggeration.
See example above.
See example above.
I think I've been spending too much time in Biowares forums.
Trust me tooducks - Telltale aren't above a little criticism once in a while.
THE FEELS!!!!!!1
WTF?! This is the LONGEST ARGUMENT EVERRR
You two are now awesome beyond comprehension
Instead of singing, maybe if Clem just hummed an short extract from a song, such as "You are my sunshine",for example. Otherwise, Clem singing? Naah, can't imagine that...