Yeah, he sure did his part, what with stealing from the people who saved him hardly a week ago. Just because the bandits didn't attack doesn't… more mean that this is a positive thing. If he'd said something to the group, the entire mess with the raid could have been avoided. But no. And look at what happened tot he group AFTER that raid.
So what? He's weaker than Lee, but who isn't? By the time he realized that he wouldn't be able to save another human life, he was too late (That jerk thing was a joke ). It was a mistake, and I believe that mistakes should be forgiven. That's like saying if a general in war makes a bad strategy, and his men die, he should be punished with DEATH. He should be punished, for not doing his job, which, in Ben's case, happened a lot. I threatened him when I learned about it, and I didn't trust him as much, but I still respected him as a human being.
I judge humanity on how a person copes with stress, and at times, the ways they coped, even early on, were outlandish. I don't think any normal person would be able to kill their brother so early into the death storm. Ben reacted to stress like a regular person. And yeah, people make mistakes, too. That's something that Lee never really does unless you regret your actions. Lilly made one mistake the whole time we knew her, and Kenny made a lot of mistakes, so he's realistic, I guess (but I still dislike him).
That's totallty NOT the same. Lee had to make a quick decision within seconds, being only able to save one life (Thanks for calling me a jerk,… more btw), but Ben had days if not even weeks to make a decision, and he decided to betray the people who saved his life, steal from them and don't tell them a word about it or warn them that there are Bandits nearby who are a possible threat. This alone would have been reason enough to let him die, but the fact that the consequences of his actions killed three people and that he sweared he didn't have to do anything with any of what happened (which lead to Carley's / Doug's death) made it so much worse.
He may be the most human character (if you define "humanity" by the number of mistakes someone makes and how big a risk he is), but in a already fucked up world - if you want to survive - he is a person you REALLY don't want to have with you.
tbh, I didn't feel like that decision was who to save, it was more like: who do you go to for whatever reason
I went to Pete because I felt like he was the leader and knew what he was doing and I thought that Nick would follow.
I never said that Ben was weaker than Lee, nor that this was my problem with him. It is not about weakness and strength, it is about honesty and taking sides. And these two things are what Ben really messen up.
Dealing with stress is something important for survival, If I killed your family and threw you in a cage with a lion, I am 90% sure you would focus on the lion first (Sorry for that harsh example, but imagine it, to get a small taste of the situation in TWD). That Lee killed his brother [who was - technically seen - already dead at that point] was an act of mercy rather than a part of some killing spree or whatever you would call it. For Lee, it was one of the most difficult things he done in his live, which you would be able to say if you recognized his initial reaction.
And to that general metaphor: Bens behaviour was like an American general (in WW 2) secretly having a deal with the Germans and in the end, his decisions lead to the death of half of his men and the loss of an important outpost. A general can be punished with death for doing way less wrong.
But I get your point: You want people to keep their "humanity" (Which is hard to define, with humans doing more cruel things than animals ever could) even if the world has gone to shit (in my opinion, many people are not even able to do that in our, somewhat good world, but hey, just my opinion). And Ben is a good example for keeping one's humanity.
I still don't like him, because being "human" sometimes can be dangerous, for oneself or others, as we all saw in Episode 3. Being smart and doing the best for the group you chose to belong to is in my opinion (Man, do I use these words often in this post...) more valuable than being "human", even though this isn't something a person should miss in a (post-)apocalyptic world.
So what? He's weaker than Lee, but who isn't? By the time he realized that he wouldn't be able to save another human life, he was too late (Th… moreat jerk thing was a joke ). It was a mistake, and I believe that mistakes should be forgiven. That's like saying if a general in war makes a bad strategy, and his men die, he should be punished with DEATH. He should be punished, for not doing his job, which, in Ben's case, happened a lot. I threatened him when I learned about it, and I didn't trust him as much, but I still respected him as a human being.
I judge humanity on how a person copes with stress, and at times, the ways they coped, even early on, were outlandish. I don't think any normal person would be able to kill their brother so early into the death storm. Ben reacted to stress like a regular person. And yeah, people make mistakes, too. That's something that Lee never really does unless you regret your actions. Lilly made one mistake the whol… [view original content]
If I was Kenny I'd shoot him in the chest and leave him to turn, as Lee I decided to save him because like Lee said we didn't want to go the Crawford way and I thought he could still redeem himself
Hate is a little too farfetched, it's more just like he got in the way of the group, without him carly/doug would of lived, clem never would of been kidnapped ect.
However we can't necessarily say that them being a avoided would be a good thing, since we don't know what would happen without ben.
Ben was my most hated character everything time i trusted him he failed me gave him a job failed again and got most group killed with his decisions maybe ill forgive but after replaying whole season again leaving Clem to be eaten by Walkers the Line was crossed and failing to mind Clem this is unforgivable in my eyes getting Kenny killed over his stupidity also but putting my Clem in danger was final straw would kill Ben for chocolate biscuit in the game if was a decision YES
It takes a strong man to say that he fucked up, especially with something as big as this. Ben is a MUCH weaker man than Lee, which led him to make those decisions. Fair point, with Lee's brother, but even still, I think that a person would be much more broken up about his parents dying, or his brother dying. The only person who I knew when his mother died, he was grieving for months and months, but Lee reflected on it for all of an hour.
Well... Ben was trying to get a prisoner released, so it was more like negotiating with German soldiers for American troops, but, while keeping the negotiations going, one of his higher ups pisses off the Germans, so they attack, then the general gets executed.
I don't care if people keep their humanity, but I want to believe their spiral away from it, which I did for most characters, but the fact that they all shed it like it was a winter coat in July kinda threw me off. Ben never lost his humanity, but if the story had continued further, and he ever did lose it, then I'd likely believe it more than Lee losing it, more than Carley losing it (apparently she lost it because she hadn't had any coffee), more than Kenny losing it... By human, I meant like a person that we could believe is real, and Ben is probably 90% of the population in that scenario.
Also, I agree with those points, but as a person, I like Ben far more. He's the only one who ever apologized for his actions, unless you tried to save Larry and still wanted Ken to like you. Ken kinda did, but it seemed... Like last words. No one wants to end on a bad note, so they say something for the other to remember them positively by. In other words, I don't believe he meant it.
I never said that Ben was weaker than Lee, nor that this was my problem with him. It is not about weakness and strength, it is about honesty a… morend taking sides. And these two things are what Ben really messen up.
Dealing with stress is something important for survival, If I killed your family and threw you in a cage with a lion, I am 90% sure you would focus on the lion first (Sorry for that harsh example, but imagine it, to get a small taste of the situation in TWD). That Lee killed his brother [who was - technically seen - already dead at that point] was an act of mercy rather than a part of some killing spree or whatever you would call it. For Lee, it was one of the most difficult things he done in his live, which you would be able to say if you recognized his initial reaction.
And to that general metaphor: Bens behaviour was like an American general (in WW 2) secretly having a deal with the Germans and in the end, his decisions lead to th… [view original content]
That still didn't make him an inferior human being. He just needed support, which much he didn't get. Plus, it's the group's fault he felt guilty for things which probably lead to mental disturbance - making him suck.
Well explaining the situation to Kenny could of waited at least until we got out of Crawford. Who tells someone something like that in a life … moreor death situation? He was pretty dumb and I agree that he was trying to help but countless times he was a coward and an idiot. I'm not saying I didn't like or feel for the kid but he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.
To me, Ben was just young.
Yes he didn't make the best decisions, but then again he hadn't had the advantage of getting a couple of years under his belt, unlike Lee and Kenny for example.
Young people often times do stupid things, no offense intended!
That's why it's important to show consideration, remembering that even though they have the physical size of adults, that it wasn't to long ago they were running around in diapers.
Experience is something that cannot be rushed.
It takes years to acquire.
And remember, Ben's character didn't do the things he did out of malicious intent.
That's why when his character was hanging from the bell tower, is why I had Lee pull him up.
We should not blame ben for all those deaths.i know that if we look for the reason of those deaths we end up to ben.Ben is the reason of those deaths but It's not right just to blame him.blaming is a bad thing there is NO benefit in blaming.if we blame him we just make it worse.the bad things happen.he didn't kill those people on purpose.In the game we saw that what kenny did to him.he blamed ben and in the result ben wanted to die.see,blaming is a way of killing people.
Ben is just stupid and cowardly. Abandoning a little girl to save your own skin is pathetic but removing the hatchet which is clearly keeping a door barred from numerous flesh eating monsters has got to be most brainless decision made by any character in the entire series.
The groups fault? How? The kid nearly got everyone killed back at the motor inn. He should feel guilty, he killed a mans family for Christ sake, one of the only people that stuck up for him saved his life or got shot, he ran the entire group out of a secure position and also could of cause way more damage if Kenny didn't fix the RV. I agree he needed support and it wasn't entirely his fault. I stood up for him on the roadside and in Crawford but the guilt he was feeling was well deserved, you couldn't not feel guilty about what he did. I'm not calling him an "inferior human being", I'm just saying that he's an idiot.
That still didn't make him an inferior human being. He just needed support, which much he didn't get. Plus, it's the group's fault he felt guilty for things which probably lead to mental disturbance - making him suck.
ure position and also could of cause way more damage if Kenny didn't fix the RV. I agree he needed support and it wasn't entirely his fault. I stood up for him on the roadside and in Crawford but the guilt he was feeling was well deserved, you couldn't not feel guilty about what he did. I'm not calling him an "inferior human being", I'm just saying that he's an idiot.
The groups fault? How? The kid nearly got everyone killed back at the motor inn. He should feel guilty, he killed a mans family for Christ sak… moree, one of the only people that stuck up for him saved his life or got shot, he ran the entire group out of a secure position and also could of cause way more damage if Kenny didn't fix the RV. I agree he needed support and it wasn't entirely his fault. I stood up for him on the roadside and in Crawford but the guilt he was feeling was well deserved, you couldn't not feel guilty about what he did. I'm not calling him an "inferior human being", I'm just saying that he's an idiot.
ure position and also could of cause way more damage if Kenny didn't fix the RV. I agree he needed support and it wasn't entirely his fault. I… more stood up for him on the roadside and in Crawford but the guilt he was feeling was well deserved, you couldn't not feel guilty about what he did. I'm not calling him an "inferior human being", I'm just saying that he's an idiot.
I never disliked Ben. But I heavily pitied him. He was a tremendous coward and liar. Flaws some human beings are able to hold harder than others. But I'll admit, when he ran away and left Clementine for death I was REALLY angry at him. Even after talking to him after I felt like I needed to punch him for what he had done. Wish you could have. Might have gave him a break since Chuck was nice enough to save Clem. Thank you Chuck. For being being more useful than a majority of the characters in the series. Funny too, when he was never even in a full episode.
And, it's thanks to Ben that we have one of the funniest moments of the entire series (in my book).
So yeah, part of me likes Ben for being a real screw-upper that I could genuinely believe exists in a world where the dead walks. But part of me hates him for leaving Clementine to death. While I was never too mad at him for the indirect deaths of everyone (Carley/Doug, Katjaa, Duck, Chuck & Brie) I can see why many people really dislike him.
He was an interesting character, some people loved him, some people hated him. Which was a great thing Telltale done mind you. Hope we get characters this unique in Season Two.
I didn't like Ben that much, I just felt like he was trying and never getting anywhere. I wanted to shoot him in the leg and leave him for the walkers on the streets after he abandoned Clementine. But that was in the heat of the moment, I still was very distrusting and angry with him. Clem is even scared to be left alone with him to protect her. I didn't like the fact that Ben made the bandit deal without consulting the group. If Ben believed them then he should have told the group about them having his friend, and asked for advise. I can understand though not many people had warmed up to him yet and he probably thought they wouldn't care. Still he put the group on danger, even if the deal kept going, it was like lily said stealing medicine is the same as slipping into your room at night and slitting your throat, you die either way.
If Ben hadn't made the deal with the bandits then lily would not gotten paranoid and shot Carly/Doug. If he hadn't been stealing then the bandits would never have missed that last package. So the motor inn would not have gotten attacked the way it was. That would have saved duck, Kat, and Kenny. When duck died Kat couldn't think of a reason to live so she ended it. If duck lived she would have too. He did buy them time to fix the RV though I'll give him that.
Cant blame Carly/Doug's death on Ben, that was Lilly handling the situation poorly. Ben's death wasnt really his fault, the railing would have… more collapsed regardless of who jumped across last. Katjaa made her own choice. Kenny made his own choice as well.
Brie and Chuck's deaths are very much Ben's fault. Duck is pretty much Ben's fault, still people go on about how its entirely Ben's fault, but it wasnt him attacking the Motor Inn. Brie's death was directly due to Ben releasing the horde onto them and Chuck's was due to Ben's negligence. Supplying the bandits is at worst indirectly causing Duck's death, you can only trace blame back so far. Its like saying Duck's death was Kenny's fault for not helping to save Shawn, which caused them to get kicked off of the farm.
Ben is hated because of who he is and a prime example of the saying that appears in Batman: “It is not who you are underneath, it’s what you do that defines you.”
In a zombie apocalypse (or any survival situation) when you are in a group, every single action you take has consequences for not just yourself but everyone around you.
Every action you take needs to take this into mind because literally your survival and the survival of your friends and family depend on it.
Ben instead acted in a selfish and self centered manner with total disregard for the group that he had lucked into. His actions also continually showed a lack of attention, insight, and understanding of consequences the magnitude of which was dumbfounding. Worst of all was his complete inability to adapt to changing circumstances.
He did get everyone who was in the group, when he joined it killed, aside from Clementine, and maybe Kenny (we will see in Season 2) because of all that I stated above.
Well, the Deal isn't what caused the bandit problems, the Deal is what stopped the Bandit problems, atleast for a time... keep that in mind. For all we know, Ben not making the deal could have ended with the Bandits just taking the motor inn earlier and killing everyone.
I didn't like Ben that much, I just felt like he was trying and never getting anywhere. I wanted to shoot him in the leg and leave him for the… more walkers on the streets after he abandoned Clementine. But that was in the heat of the moment, I still was very distrusting and angry with him. Clem is even scared to be left alone with him to protect her. I didn't like the fact that Ben made the bandit deal without consulting the group. If Ben believed them then he should have told the group about them having his friend, and asked for advise. I can understand though not many people had warmed up to him yet and he probably thought they wouldn't care. Still he put the group on danger, even if the deal kept going, it was like lily said stealing medicine is the same as slipping into your room at night and slitting your throat, you die either way.
How do you figure Brie? Her death just felt like an unfortunate accident to me. She was standing by the door and got a Doug style death. Brie chose to come to the school--if anything Vernon vouched for her coming, so if you blame Ben for that, seems you should blame Vernon too. Not saying blame either, but it seems like a stretch.
I didn't completely dislike him until Episode (4?) where instead of helping Clem he just leaves her and does the Harrold Holt to save his own skin. At that point he'd done his dash with me. Then there's the time when he grabs the axe that was holding the door shut to keep walkers out in Crawford which was the final nail in the coffin. On my 3rd or 4th playthrough I was like "you're so getting dropped in the bell tower".
Comments
You make a good point. I agree with you Ben should of told but, nonetheless Ben did save the group from possible attacks.
So what? He's weaker than Lee, but who isn't? By the time he realized that he wouldn't be able to save another human life, he was too late (That jerk thing was a joke
). It was a mistake, and I believe that mistakes should be forgiven. That's like saying if a general in war makes a bad strategy, and his men die, he should be punished with DEATH. He should be punished, for not doing his job, which, in Ben's case, happened a lot. I threatened him when I learned about it, and I didn't trust him as much, but I still respected him as a human being.
I judge humanity on how a person copes with stress, and at times, the ways they coped, even early on, were outlandish. I don't think any normal person would be able to kill their brother so early into the death storm. Ben reacted to stress like a regular person. And yeah, people make mistakes, too. That's something that Lee never really does unless you regret your actions. Lilly made one mistake the whole time we knew her, and Kenny made a lot of mistakes, so he's realistic, I guess (but I still dislike him).
True, but the game made it pretty clear that shit was going to happen to whomever you did not save.
I never said that Ben was weaker than Lee, nor that this was my problem with him. It is not about weakness and strength, it is about honesty and taking sides. And these two things are what Ben really messen up.
Dealing with stress is something important for survival, If I killed your family and threw you in a cage with a lion, I am 90% sure you would focus on the lion first (Sorry for that harsh example, but imagine it, to get a small taste of the situation in TWD). That Lee killed his brother [who was - technically seen - already dead at that point] was an act of mercy rather than a part of some killing spree or whatever you would call it. For Lee, it was one of the most difficult things he done in his live, which you would be able to say if you recognized his initial reaction.
And to that general metaphor: Bens behaviour was like an American general (in WW 2) secretly having a deal with the Germans and in the end, his decisions lead to the death of half of his men and the loss of an important outpost. A general can be punished with death for doing way less wrong.
But I get your point: You want people to keep their "humanity" (Which is hard to define, with humans doing more cruel things than animals ever could) even if the world has gone to shit (in my opinion, many people are not even able to do that in our, somewhat good world, but hey, just my opinion). And Ben is a good example for keeping one's humanity.
I still don't like him, because being "human" sometimes can be dangerous, for oneself or others, as we all saw in Episode 3. Being smart and doing the best for the group you chose to belong to is in my opinion (Man, do I use these words often in this post...) more valuable than being "human", even though this isn't something a person should miss in a (post-)apocalyptic world.
If I was Kenny I'd shoot him in the chest and leave him to turn, as Lee I decided to save him because like Lee said we didn't want to go the Crawford way and I thought he could still redeem himself
I agree. Now i understand.
Hate is a little too farfetched, it's more just like he got in the way of the group, without him carly/doug would of lived, clem never would of been kidnapped ect.
However we can't necessarily say that them being a avoided would be a good thing, since we don't know what would happen without ben.
Ben was my most hated character everything time i trusted him he failed me gave him a job failed again and got most group killed with his decisions maybe ill forgive but after replaying whole season again leaving Clem to be eaten by Walkers the Line was crossed and failing to mind Clem this is unforgivable in my eyes getting Kenny killed over his stupidity also but putting my Clem in danger was final straw would kill Ben for chocolate biscuit in the game if was a decision YES
It takes a strong man to say that he fucked up, especially with something as big as this. Ben is a MUCH weaker man than Lee, which led him to make those decisions. Fair point, with Lee's brother, but even still, I think that a person would be much more broken up about his parents dying, or his brother dying. The only person who I knew when his mother died, he was grieving for months and months, but Lee reflected on it for all of an hour.
Well... Ben was trying to get a prisoner released, so it was more like negotiating with German soldiers for American troops, but, while keeping the negotiations going, one of his higher ups pisses off the Germans, so they attack, then the general gets executed.
I don't care if people keep their humanity, but I want to believe their spiral away from it, which I did for most characters, but the fact that they all shed it like it was a winter coat in July kinda threw me off. Ben never lost his humanity, but if the story had continued further, and he ever did lose it, then I'd likely believe it more than Lee losing it, more than Carley losing it (apparently she lost it because she hadn't had any coffee), more than Kenny losing it... By human, I meant like a person that we could believe is real, and Ben is probably 90% of the population in that scenario.
Also, I agree with those points, but as a person, I like Ben far more. He's the only one who ever apologized for his actions, unless you tried to save Larry and still wanted Ken to like you. Ken kinda did, but it seemed... Like last words. No one wants to end on a bad note, so they say something for the other to remember them positively by. In other words, I don't believe he meant it.
That still didn't make him an inferior human being. He just needed support, which much he didn't get. Plus, it's the group's fault he felt guilty for things which probably lead to mental disturbance - making him suck.
Well, Telltale failed miserably on that one. lol
To me, Ben was just young.
Yes he didn't make the best decisions, but then again he hadn't had the advantage of getting a couple of years under his belt, unlike Lee and Kenny for example.
Young people often times do stupid things, no offense intended!
That's why it's important to show consideration, remembering that even though they have the physical size of adults, that it wasn't to long ago they were running around in diapers.
Experience is something that cannot be rushed.
It takes years to acquire.
And remember, Ben's character didn't do the things he did out of malicious intent.
That's why when his character was hanging from the bell tower, is why I had Lee pull him up.
Thank God it's only a videogame!
Nasevasti sanottu
We should not blame ben for all those deaths.i know that if we look for the reason of those deaths we end up to ben.Ben is the reason of those deaths but It's not right just to blame him.blaming is a bad thing there is NO benefit in blaming.if we blame him we just make it worse.the bad things happen.he didn't kill those people on purpose.In the game we saw that what kenny did to him.he blamed ben and in the result ben wanted to die.see,blaming is a way of killing people.
Ben is just stupid and cowardly. Abandoning a little girl to save your own skin is pathetic but removing the hatchet which is clearly keeping a door barred from numerous flesh eating monsters has got to be most brainless decision made by any character in the entire series.
The groups fault? How? The kid nearly got everyone killed back at the motor inn. He should feel guilty, he killed a mans family for Christ sake, one of the only people that stuck up for him saved his life or got shot, he ran the entire group out of a secure position and also could of cause way more damage if Kenny didn't fix the RV. I agree he needed support and it wasn't entirely his fault. I stood up for him on the roadside and in Crawford but the guilt he was feeling was well deserved, you couldn't not feel guilty about what he did. I'm not calling him an "inferior human being", I'm just saying that he's an idiot.
ure position and also could of cause way more damage if Kenny didn't fix the RV. I agree he needed support and it wasn't entirely his fault. I stood up for him on the roadside and in Crawford but the guilt he was feeling was well deserved, you couldn't not feel guilty about what he did. I'm not calling him an "inferior human being", I'm just saying that he's an idiot.
Look what you've started Ben. I hope you're happy. Your stupidity started this big ruckus.
I never disliked Ben. But I heavily pitied him. He was a tremendous coward and liar. Flaws some human beings are able to hold harder than others. But I'll admit, when he ran away and left Clementine for death I was REALLY angry at him. Even after talking to him after I felt like I needed to punch him for what he had done. Wish you could have. Might have gave him a break since Chuck was nice enough to save Clem. Thank you Chuck. For being being more useful than a majority of the characters in the series. Funny too, when he was never even in a full episode.
And, it's thanks to Ben that we have one of the funniest moments of the entire series (in my book).
So yeah, part of me likes Ben for being a real screw-upper that I could genuinely believe exists in a world where the dead walks. But part of me hates him for leaving Clementine to death. While I was never too mad at him for the indirect deaths of everyone (Carley/Doug, Katjaa, Duck, Chuck & Brie) I can see why many people really dislike him.
He was an interesting character, some people loved him, some people hated him. Which was a great thing Telltale done mind you. Hope we get characters this unique in Season Two.
I didn't like Ben that much, I just felt like he was trying and never getting anywhere. I wanted to shoot him in the leg and leave him for the walkers on the streets after he abandoned Clementine. But that was in the heat of the moment, I still was very distrusting and angry with him. Clem is even scared to be left alone with him to protect her. I didn't like the fact that Ben made the bandit deal without consulting the group. If Ben believed them then he should have told the group about them having his friend, and asked for advise. I can understand though not many people had warmed up to him yet and he probably thought they wouldn't care. Still he put the group on danger, even if the deal kept going, it was like lily said stealing medicine is the same as slipping into your room at night and slitting your throat, you die either way.
The fuck happened with my comments?
If I remember correctly... Ben murder list:
Carley/Doug
Katjaa
Duck
Chuck
Brie
If Ben hadn't made the deal with the bandits then lily would not gotten paranoid and shot Carly/Doug. If he hadn't been stealing then the bandits would never have missed that last package. So the motor inn would not have gotten attacked the way it was. That would have saved duck, Kat, and Kenny. When duck died Kat couldn't think of a reason to live so she ended it. If duck lived she would have too. He did buy them time to fix the RV though I'll give him that.
Mybad xD
Ben is hated because of who he is and a prime example of the saying that appears in Batman: “It is not who you are underneath, it’s what you do that defines you.”
In a zombie apocalypse (or any survival situation) when you are in a group, every single action you take has consequences for not just yourself but everyone around you.
Every action you take needs to take this into mind because literally your survival and the survival of your friends and family depend on it.
Ben instead acted in a selfish and self centered manner with total disregard for the group that he had lucked into. His actions also continually showed a lack of attention, insight, and understanding of consequences the magnitude of which was dumbfounding. Worst of all was his complete inability to adapt to changing circumstances.
He did get everyone who was in the group, when he joined it killed, aside from Clementine, and maybe Kenny (we will see in Season 2) because of all that I stated above.
In my opinion, of course.
Telltale cut the most of the background story of Ben so we were like ''his fault Carley/Doug is dead, he his a chicken, he didn't kill one Walker''
He was more a depressive character and if this background story was used people were like, he just trys to protect the group or something like that
I still like Ben
How do you figure Brie? Her death just felt like an unfortunate accident to me. She was standing by the door and got a Doug style death. Brie chose to come to the school--if anything Vernon vouched for her coming, so if you blame Ben for that, seems you should blame Vernon too. Not saying blame either, but it seems like a stretch.
I didn't completely dislike him until Episode (4?) where instead of helping Clem he just leaves her and does the Harrold Holt to save his own skin. At that point he'd done his dash with me. Then there's the time when he grabs the axe that was holding the door shut to keep walkers out in Crawford which was the final nail in the coffin. On my 3rd or 4th playthrough I was like "you're so getting dropped in the bell tower".