LotSN and Ron Gilbert's "Rules" (many spoilers)

BasBas
edited August 2009 in Tales of Monkey Island
A few years ago, Ron Gilbert posted his old article "Why Adventure Games Suck" on his blog. He states that he doesn't necessarily agree with all the rules anymore nowadays, but I've always found it to be very truthful, and when I dislike an adventure game I can almost always use the "Rules" to point out why it failed, in my opinion. Also, I think one of the reasons that the classic LucasArts adventures are the very best the genre has to offer is because they manage to pass every one of these rules of thumb.

So, having just finished Launch, I figured I'd see how it fares against Ron Gilbert's adventure game design rules from 1989. By the way, I won't be using spoiler tags, because that'd be incredibly tedious, so if you haven't finished the game yet, turn back.
End objective needs to be clear
It?s OK if the objective changes in mid-game, but at the beginning the player should have a clear vision as to what he or she is trying to accomplish. Nothing is more frustrating than wandering around wondering what you should be doing and if what you have been doing is going to get you anywhere. Situations where not knowing what?s going on can be fun and an integral part of the game, but this is rare and difficult to pull off.

This worked well. You instantly knew you had to get off the island.
Sub-goals need to be obvious
Most good adventure games are broken up into many sub-goals. Letting the player know at least the first sub-goal is essential in hooking them. If the main goal is to rescue the prince, and the player is trapped on an island at the beginning of the game, have another character in the story tell them the first step: get off the island. This is just good storytelling.

This also worked. Davey instantly told you that you couldn't get off the island because of the winds, and then provided you with the lead you needed to figure out how to do something about them.
Live and learn
As a rule, adventure games should be able to be played from beginning to end without ?dying? or saving the game if the player is very careful and very observant. It is bad design to put puzzles and situations into a game that require a player to die in order to learn what not to do next time

This has never been the case in LucasArts or Telltale adventures that I can recall.
Backwards Puzzles
The backwards puzzle is probably the one thing that bugs me more than anything else about adventure games. I have created my share of them; and as with most design flaws, it?s easier to leave them in than to redesign them. The backwards puzzle occurs when the solution is found before the problem. Ideally, the crevice should be found before the rope that allows the player to descend. What this does in the player?s mind is set up a challenge. He knows he need to get down the crevice, but there is no route. Now the player has a task in mind as he continues to search. When a rope is spotted, a light goes on in his head and the puzzle falls into place. For a player, when the design works, there is nothing like that experience.

The only time I can recall this happening in LotSN was with the pyrite parrot and the nasal cavity. I put him in there before having lured de Singe to the door, and I was kind of miffed that not only did nothing happen, but I had lost the parrot for no good reason too. The "see if you can open the door from the inside" thing was a bit of a cop out, really. The only thing the parrot ever did was lie around, so there was no reason to assume that it'd suddenly be able to work ancient doors. I think it would have been better if Guybrush had refused to put the parrot in there because he didn't want to lose it, until you had lured de Sing and it became clear that de Singe would open the door if he had reason to suspect Guybrush already being in there.
I forgot to pick it up
This is really part of the backwards puzzle rule, but in the worst way. Never require a player to pick up an item that is used later in the game if she can?t go back and get it when it is needed. It is very frustrating to learn that a seemingly insignificant object is needed, and the only way to get it is to start over or go back to a saved game.

Fortunately, I have never seen this happen anymore in the last 20 years or so of adventure games.
Puzzles should advance the story
There is nothing more frustrating than solving pointless puzzle after pointless puzzle. Each puzzle solved should bring the player closer to understanding the story and game. It should be somewhat clear how solving this puzzle brings the player closer to the immediate goal.

I think this all worked nicely as well. You knew you had to make a Dark Ninja Dave because you needed D'oro to find treasure because you needed Davey to divulge the whereabouts of Deep Gut, etcetera.
Real time is bad drama
One of the most important keys to drama is timing. Anyone who has designed a story game knows that the player rarely does anything at the right time or in the right order. If we let the game run on a clock that is independent from the player?s actions, we are going to be guaranteed that few things will happen with dramatic timing. When Indiana Jones rolled under the closing stone door and grabbed his hat just in time, it sent a chill and a cheer through everyone in the audience. If that scene had been done in a standard adventure game, the player would have been killed the first four times he tried to make it under the door. The next six times the player would have been too late to grab the hat. Is this good drama? Not likely. The key is to use Hollywood time, not real time. Give the player some slack when doing time-based puzzles. Try to watch for intent.

I think they pulled this off too, for instance in the scene with de Singe and the gun at the fourth idol. Something I particularly appreciated was that it only knocked you back to the previous screen, so you could walk right back in there when you failed, rather than towards a random point on the map like in Monkey Island 1.
Incremental reward
The player needs to know that she is achieving. The fastest way to turn a player off is to let the game drag on with no advancement. This is especially true for people who are playing adventure games for the first time. In graphics adventures the reward often comes in the form of seeing new areas of the game.

This worked too, if you ask me. The jungle divulged new locations at a steady rate of puzzle solving.

(I'll continue this in a second post, because for some reason I can't post any long posts. Posts.)
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Comments

  • BasBas
    edited July 2009
    (continued)
    Arbitrary puzzles
    Puzzles and their solutions need to make sense. They don?t have to be obvious, just make sense. The best reaction after solving a tough puzzle should be, ?Of course, why didn?t I think of that sooner!? The worst, and most often heard after being told the solution is, ?I never would have gotten that!? If the solution can only be reached by trial and error or plain luck, it?s a bad puzzle.

    I think this is the one major failure of LotSN. There was no reason for the Club 41 card to be in the sock, and no way for the player to know. The only way you could have found a way into Club 41 was by randomly clicking stuff.
    Same goes for the Unbreakable Bottle Breaker: you knew the glass blower had it, and that he wasn't going to give it to you. With a bit of thinking you could also figure out that a cannon ball shot from a ship would be blown back to the island due to the winds. But how were you supposed to know that it'd land exactly on the glass unicorns, and that the glassblower would subsequently go inside while leaving the very bottle breaker he was so protective of outside? Was there really anyone who fired the cannon because they had a clue that it'd get them the bottle breaker?
    Reward Intent
    The object of these games is to have fun. Figure out what the player is trying to do. If it is what the game wants, then help the player along and let it happen. The most common place this fails is in playing a meta-game called ?second guess the parser.? If the player is standing right next to something, chances are they are trying to manipulate it. If you give the player the benefit of the doubt, the game will be right more than wrong. On one occasion, I don?t know how much time I spent trying to tie a string on the end of a stick. I finally gave up, not knowing if I was wording the sentence wrong or if it was not part of the design. As it turned out, I was wording it wrong.

    Can't recall this being a problem.
    Unconnected events
    In order to pace events, some games lock out sections until certain events have happened. There is nothing wrong with this, it is almost a necessity. The problem comes when the event that opens the new section of the world is unconnected. If the designer wants to make sure that six objects have been picked up before opening a secret door, make sure that there is a reason why those six objects would affect the door. If a player has only picked up five of the objects and is waiting for the door to open (or worse yet, trying to find a way to open the door), the act of getting the flashlight is not going to make any sense in relation to the door opening.

    The only time I experienced this was with de Singe's lab becoming available. You knew you couldn't get in during the first half of the game because he was seeing a patient. But later in the game, the patient is gone without you having anything to do with it. You have to discover that the lab is now available as a location yourself, and there's no reason to think that it might be because it doesn't become available through any of your actions.

    Alternatively, the bit with the Creepy Shack handled this well: you could find the shack on your own, but you couldn't get in because you need a password. When you do some stuff for Davey and get the map, you realise that you now have the password and can enter the shack.
    Give the player options
    A lot of story games employ a technique that can best be described as caging the player. This occurs when the player is required to solve a small set of puzzles in order to advance to the next section of the game, at which point she is presented with another small set of puzzles. Once these puzzles are solved, in a seemingly endless series of cages, the player enters the next section. This can be particularly frustrating if the player is unable to solve a particular puzzle. The areas to explore tend to be small, so the only activity is walking around trying to find the one solution out.

    A better way to approach designing this is to think of the player as outside the cages, and the puzzles as locked up within. In this model, the player has a lot more options about what to do next. She can select from a wide variety of cages to open. If the solution to one puzzle stumps her, she can go on to another, thus increasing the amount of useful activity going on.

    Of course, you will want some puzzles that lock out areas of the game, but the areas should be fairly large and interesting unto themselves.

    I always feel that the first chapter of Monkey Island 1 is a great example of how to do this well. You know that you need to complete the trials, but the order in which you do them is completely arbitrary. If you're stuck solving the puzzles for the treasure hunting trial, you can just continue with the idol pilfering trial.

    In LotSN, I think this worked as well as an episodic game will allow. You could do Davey's 'trials' in any order you pleased, and the jungle puzzles didn't feel particularly linear either. Quite an achievement in a relative small area.

    So all in all, not a bad score for LotSN. The only real problem I see is the Arbitrary Puzzles rule (although that's an important one in my opinion), and to a lesser extent the Unconnected Events and Backwards Puzzles rules.

    What do you think? Perhaps the Telltale team could look into these when designing the remaining episodes?
  • edited July 2009
    the rules are discussed in a previous thread http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10161
  • edited July 2009
    SPOILERS
    Bas wrote: »
    Same goes for the Unbreakable Bottle Breaker: you knew the glass blower had it, and that he wasn't going to give it to you. With a bit of thinking you could also figure out that a cannon ball shot from a ship would be blown back to the island due to the winds. But how were you supposed to know that it'd land exactly on the glass unicorns, and that the glassblower would subsequently go inside while leaving the very bottle breaker he was so protective of outside? Was there really anyone who fired the cannon because they had a clue that it'd get them the bottle breaker?

    I fired the cannon before the glassblower so I knew that he was going to get inside his house after I broke his unicorn. When I found out that he had the glassblower I fired the cannon and I got the glassblower.
    Bas wrote: »
    The only time I experienced this was with de Singe's lab becoming available. You knew you couldn't get in during the first half of the game because he was seeing a patient. But later in the game, the patient is gone without you having anything to do with it. You have to discover that the lab is now available as a location yourself, and there's no reason to think that it might be because it doesn't become available through any of your actions.

    Every time I was stuck I check the lab if it was opens. It supposes to open after we found the shack. But correct is an unconnected event
    Bas wrote: »
    I put him in there before having lured de Singe to the door, and I was kind of miffed that not only did nothing happen, but I had lost the parrot for no good reason too. The "see if you can open the door from the inside" thing was a bit of a cop out, really. The only thing the parrot ever did was lie around, so there was no reason to assume that it'd suddenly be able to work ancient doors. I think it would have been better if Guybrush had refused to put the parrot in there because he didn't want to lose it, until you had lured de Sing and it became clear that de Singe would open the door if he had reason to suspect Guybrush already being in there.

    I don’t think that Gilbert was talking about for Backwards Puzzles, because you found the solution to the puzzle by luck.

    Yeah Guybrush should have refused to put the parrot before the doctor checked the door but on the other hand if he said he won’t do it and then change his mind it would be really frustrating because I would remember I tried the parrot with the door so I wouldn’t have try it again.
  • BasBas
    edited July 2009
    larys wrote: »
    I fired the cannon before the glassblower so I knew that he was going to get inside his house after I broke his unicorn. When I found out that he had the glassblower I fired the cannon and I got the glassblower.

    See, that's the point. You could only really figure out the solution to this puzzle if you had already fired the cannon once. I think it'd have been a better puzzle if you had seen it be fired and hit the unicorns, or were forced to fire it, or at least in some way get a hint that it might hit dangerously close to the glassblower's house.
  • edited July 2009
    Bas wrote: »
    See, that's the point. You could only really figure out the solution to this puzzle if you had already fired the cannon once. I think it'd have been a better puzzle if you had seen it be fired and hit the unicorns, or were forced to fire it, or at least in some way get a hint that it might hit dangerously close to the glassblower's house.

    But this has nothing to do with Ron Gilbert (Arbitrary puzzles) rules. He said they need to be logical. Why do you need to have a hint to check the socks and the canon?
  • BasBas
    edited July 2009
    larys wrote: »
    But this has nothing to do with Ron Gilbert (Arbitrary puzzles) rules. He said they need to be logical. Why do you need to have a hint to check the socks and the canon?

    Because the only other way of solving those puzzles is clicking stuff randomly?
  • edited July 2009
    Actually, the captain says that he lost his membership card while claiming the boat from its previous owner. So, it's slightly hinted towards it lying around somewhere close, at least.

    I agree regarding the cannon though, as I solved that by randomly clicking stuff as well.
  • edited July 2009
    But one of the questions is.. Why would you NOT fire a cannon on your ship? I immediatly wanted to do that, and many with me I'm sure.

    And the socks; well, I noticed the pink underwear and had a chuckle at them, and then noticed the socks next to them and saw I could interact with them. No problem either. Without the pink underwear though I probably wouldn't have given them much attention.
  • edited July 2009
    Bas wrote: »
    Because the only other way of solving those puzzles is clicking stuff randomly?

    It's an adventure game. I always click on everything at least once (sometimes more than once) just to see if something funny will happen.

    Telltale, on the whole, have done very well with their games by not having very many red herring objects you can pick up - almost every single item is used in at least one puzzle. Sure there's "red herring" hotspots (the machine in the Voodoo lady's shack, for example) but at least something amusing happens when you click on them.

    For the complaints in the first posts, I didn't find them a problem - Winslow said he'd lost his membership card, so clicking on nearby objects pretty much guaranteed you'd find it - socks or underwear or pants were my guess even before I clicked on them.

    When I became captain of the Screaming Narhwal, I fired the cannon just because it was there... and discovered it smashed the unicorn. Well before the unbreakable bottle breaker was available.

    And the parrot thing - As you say, perhaps Guybrush should have said "This could be a good idea... but I'm not sure why" and not pushed the parrot through before you'd got De Singe to visit the door the first time. I did this in the reverse order - taunted De Singe and got an aside from Guybrush about how he may open it if he thought he was already inside - which immediately sprung in my head to use the parrot. Well not immediately, I thought maybe first to use the U-tube as a ventroliquism-type voice thrower, but when that didn't work, the parrot was next :)

    There were other points - e.g. bomb in undies - where Guybrush says "good idea, but I should light it first" - i.e. you know you're on the right track, but there's one more thing to do before you can solve the puzzle. So perhaps if for the parrot-through-the-door thing you had to taunt De Singe to get him to come to the door the first time before you would be allowed to put the parrot through - but if you tried it first, then there would be a line of dialogue that indicated that the solution was the right one, but just not right now :)

    Er, I hope that last paragraph makes some sense. It's 1.20am and I'm possibly not all that sober :)
  • edited July 2009
    I disagree about the cannon and socks puzzles as, regardless how random they might seem, they abide by the 1st rule of any adventure game: click/look/explore everything. Besides, most of the puzzles were well designed so the inclusion of an arbitrary puzzle doesn't seem too harmful. Remember that tiny string inside the Voodoo Lady's swamp shack?
  • edited July 2009
    Bas wrote: »
    Because the only other way of solving those puzzles is clicking stuff randomly?

    EMM Yeah. It's an adventure what did you expect???
  • edited July 2009
    In addition to what other people have said, if it so happens that you haven't clicked on the sock by the time the bomb goes off, then the sock is left on the crate anyway, drawing your attention to it, so it's not even as if there's no reason at all to click on the sock.
  • edited July 2009
    The only thing that was kind of irritating for me was the flowers. I had already used them on the fountain, so naturally I thought that I was done with this item. I would have never expected that I'd have to inspect them and reuse tham as a nose-substitute. Would have driven me crazy if I hadn't looked it up on these forums.. I had checked every other place for nose-like items multiple times before..

    Neither the socks nor the cannon were major problems tho. You knew the socks were supposed to be somewhere near the ships and since there weren't many possible places for them to be I got that right away. Also, I can't understand how anyone could resist clicking on the cannon the first time they were on the ship! ;)

    Anyway, there need to be some things that you just can't figure out instantly. If everything had been completely logical and obvious we would have been done with the game after 30 minutes or so..
  • edited July 2009
    harlequ1n wrote: »
    I disagree about the cannon and socks puzzles as, regardless how random they might seem, they abide by the 1st rule of any adventure game: click/look/explore everything.
    Why? The

    Now, the captain DID say he lost his membership card. So I did assume that it was off the ship but nearby, considering that he refused to leave the ship. So I don't think that was arbitrary.

    But
    "Fire the cannon and have the winds blow the cannonball back to the island and hit the glass unicorns to make the glassblower abandon his unbreakable bottle breaker
    is NOT logic. I solved it, sure, but I spent a good time beforehand watching the glassblower and his reactions to stuff I did before I gave up and walked away, hoping another puzzle would give me the solution.

    I don't care if you're supposed to click everything. Look at Ron Gilbert's rule for items that you didn't pick up before leaving an area. Doesn't the exact same logic against the "missing item" work against your "click everything" mantra?

    There was NO reason for the cannon and the glassblower to be linked in the mind of the player. If there was a scene or some sort of indication that the cannon would break his stuff, that would be different. If Guybrush jumped onto the ship after seizing it(took me awhile to realize I could get onto my own ship), and then fired the cannon once on his own, that may have worked. Maybe they could have broken his unicorns and he could start making something else, which you could break.
  • edited July 2009
    First off, thank you Bas for writing a sensible, well written critique. I am personally a Total Telltale Fangirltm, and I don't necessarily agree with you that the puzzles really needed improvement, but that is just my opinion. It in no way invalidates your opinion, and if you didn't like something it is good to let Telltale know so they can improve the game and make it possible for even more people to enjoy it. The only thing is there have been quite a few people complaining, without really explaining why they didn't like something. "It sucked" or "it wasn't funny" isn't really that helpful a critique, whereas your examination of the pyrite parrot and door puzzle actually explains what you thought was odd about it, so Telltale could actually use that information to help them make future puzzles better. I hope this doesn't sound saracastic or anything, because I really am glad that you critiqued the game well, and (so far) the other posters in this thread have too. It's important for any artist/creative person/average guy to get feedback, it just sucks that so many people have been just flaming instead, especially since a few of them seemed like they had a valid point or two buried underneath all the vitriol.
  • edited July 2009
    Bas wrote: »
    Fortunately, I have never seen this happen anymore in the last 20 years or so of adventure games.
    It's rare, but there is.
    In Grim Fandango, you can leave year 2 without the scythe in your inventory which lets you stuck early in year 3.
    A similar situation was discovered in Sam & Max "Night of the Raving Dead", not talking to the COPS about the game while you still can, makes you unable to get the prize when you need it.
    The worst games of this kind I tried were Larry 2 and 3 by far, though.
    I think they pulled this off too, for instance in the scene with de Singe and the gun at the fourth idol. Something I particularly appreciated was that it only knocked you back to the previous screen, so you could walk right back in there when you failed, rather than towards a random point on the map like in Monkey Island 1.
    Indeed. Although, real time is perfectly okay, if it is implemented in a fair way, imho. In the Monkey Island series, there are quite a few instances of this (probably a very incomplete list): MI1: the grog puzzle, chasing the shop keeper, the fish and the seagull, MI2: the spit contest (blowing the horn as well as spitting at the right moment), the drinking contest, luring the chef out of the mansion, CMI: falling down from skull island, the ride inside the giant monkey head, EMI: the boulder machine on Monkey Island, the ride at the church on Monkey Island, and now in TMI: smashing the unicorns with the cannon, carrying the ignited bomb.
    There are a few bad examples as well, though: MI1: LeChuck punching you over Melee Island and you can't do anything until you picked up the root beer at Stan's. MI2: LeChuck appearing randomly with the voodoo doll annoyingly interrupting whatever you're doing, and when you're actually waiting for him, it feels like forever sometimes. Good thing: there was no such annoyance in TMI.
    Bas wrote: »
    I think this is the one major failure of LotSN. There was no reason for the Club 41 card to be in the sock, and no way for the player to know.
    It didn't felt for me that way at all. The captain told me that he lost his card when he became a captain, and since there were only a few items around the ship, it seemed logical to look for it, and I wasn't too surprised to find it in the socks.
  • edited July 2009
    The worst games of this kind I tried were Larry 2 and 3 by far, though.

    Ugh... Larry 2...
    You have to make sure you buy the sunscreen before you leave for the cruise, otherwise you'll instantly die of skin cancer when you try to sunbathe. At least that one was sort of logical and semi-predictable (if you apply Sierra death-is-lurking-around-every-corner logic). The part that really got me though was having to swim to the bottom of the pool on the boat to get the bikini top for your disguise to get past the KGB agents later in the game.
    (Spoiler tags just in case anyone hasn't played Larry 2 but intends to.)
  • edited July 2009
    I don't care if you're supposed to click everything. Look at Ron Gilbert's rule for items that you didn't pick up before leaving an area. Doesn't the exact same logic against the "missing item" work against your "click everything" mantra?

    Not really, the rule for items you didn't pick up before leaving the area is to prevent save traps. It's still bad design to rely on players instincts to click everything, but it's not really a big game design sin like save traps are.
  • edited July 2009
    The Doctor's lab is open because it's been a while since you injured someone! :p
  • edited July 2009
    I found a couple areas that stumped me, particularly because the logic was missing.

    One was finding a way to light the bomb, I had tried the anchor once, and then tried the plank. I knew both would be unsuccessful, but tying one event to the other didn't click in my mind. I didn't know that there was a grease puddle that could be set on fire, and I didn't remember the hot coal moment to connect the two. I feel that the whole hot coal moment was a tad brief, and therefore it didn't stick in my mind as a memorable event. This, I felt was an arbitrary puzzle, when I read the hints for the solution, it finally clicked that the anchor > hot coals + grease. Perhaps if the coals lit the grease on fire before you even interacted with it, would've been more logical. The grease fire could go out, but as long as the connection one made to the other, then sure, it makes sense.

    The unicorn issue has already been brought up, and I am in full agreement. I fired the canon out of desperation. I knew in previous monkey island games, you need certain elements to operate the canon, as in CMI, disconnect the cannon with the sword, insult the little guy etc. That made sense. But in ToMI, the canon was out of the way, and why would Guybrush go firing it randomly, without even loading it first?

    The third stumper, was the weathervain on top of the idols. If it wasn't for a tiny little hotspot on top of the idols, I would've never guessed it. It was more pixel hunting than anything else, as I found the first idol by seeing the face as Guybrush held the vein up. Perhaps either way could've lead to a solution. Also, letting the player know the vein and the statue could be used together even before that series of puzzles: ie. vein + closed statue = "I'm not sure if this works right now", would've been helpful. "Strange looking spot" doesn't cut it for me.

    The tar puzzle was mostly logical and like the hot coal puzzle, it didn't "click" in my brain that the hand would shove Guybrush back after looking at the map and the tar. The hand is constantly hitting Guybrush around while he's looking at other things, why not have him get stuck in the tar by this way? There's so many possible lead-ups to this one puzzle, but the map was the answer because it was close by. It was another one of those, I never thought that would happen, solutions. But because there was a limited amount of objects in this location, it would only make sense there would be an outcome with it.

    Anyways, great read, and all the argumentation makes it interesting to see everyone's logic leading to what worked and what didn't.
  • edited July 2009
    The tar puzzle at the end was held up well and like the hot coal puzzle, it didn't click that the hand would shove Guybrush back after looking at the map and the tar. The hand constantly is hitting Guybrush around while he's looking at other things, why not have him get stuck in the tar by this way? There's so many possible lead-ups to this one puzzle, but the map was the answer because it was close by. It was another one of those, I never thought that would happen, solutions.

    ToMi had some clever puzzles except the last one. The tar puzzle was really irritating. I was trying to make guybrush put his hand in the tar but he wouldn't. I though that I had to do something smart to make him to do it but the answer was the map. Oh that was the answer? Lame.
    Luck (5) satisfaction (0).
  • edited July 2009
    larys wrote: »
    ToMi had some clever puzzles except the last one. The tar puzzle was really irritating. I was trying to make guybrush put his hand in the tar but he wouldn't. I though that I had to do something smart to make him to do it but the answer was the map. Oh that was the answer? Lame.
    Luck (5) satisfaction (0).

    I agree!

    I'd really love to see Guybrush do a backwards flip over the railing after trying to take hold of the wheel. Having various options to solve the same puzzle would've been entertaining, but time consuming to construct.
  • edited July 2009
    I agree!

    I'd really love to see Guybrush do a backwards flip over the railing after trying to take hold of the wheel. Having various options to solve the same puzzle would've been entertaining, but time consuming to construct.

    You had to somehow trick your own hand. Any rational action may have tipped it off, especially considering how Guybrush vocalises almost all his thoughts.

    I liked that puzzle! A lot!
  • edited July 2009
    I thought the tar puzzle made a lot of sense. If you click on the map before you've spilled the tar, the hand knocks Guybrush back in the same direction. And it makes sense that Guybrush can't simply stick the hand into the tar, because the demon hand seems to have control of his whole arm.

    I actually liked these "system of events" puzzles, like that one, the lab, and the clothesline puzzle, where it's a matter of seeing what does what, and figuring out the appropriate order. Much more interesting than straight inventory puzzles.
  • edited July 2009
    Interesting, i read Gilbert's text quite some time ago, i suspect he hasn't updated it yet?

    Anyway i will remember four situation which i really enjoyed in the first episode:

    a) Getting the ninja for the pirate. I liked this sub quest because i liked D'Oro and the map jungle walking riddle. I simply love maps. :O)
    b) Getting the captain replaced. This also was the most challenging puzzle for me because i've overseen than Guybrush could hang on the clothsline - too far away from the screen, so i always thought i had to get something sharp for cutting the pants partly so that the bomb drops half way down into the trousers which then return to the captain and bomb him off the ship. So i was looking all around to find something sharp, a.o. getting one of those unicorns. I liked this riddle because everything was already in sight and still it was hard to get, at least for me with overseeing the clothsline first.
    c) Commanding the monkey in the lab. This was a brilliant riddle, the location was great looking and the situation was interesting, it was almost perfect. The only thing which bugged me was that once you got the idea of how to command the monkey it was more a click and go thing, still enjoyable to watch but simply not challenging anymore.
    d) Sailing on the ship and trying to set the course. Nice tar riddle, the hand punshing the character was funny and the tilt reminded me when i steered a catamaran.

    The rest of the riddles weren't this great in my opinion. Some were okayish, some i got done by accident like destroying the unicorns, getting into the right directions when the wind symbol was next or rotating de Singe into the right position.

    I disliked the whole intro, actually it felt quite straining to me and like i have missed something before. The first time i felt like beeing in Monkey Island was when i was stranded on the island. So i was dissapointed not beeing able to enter the bar as a playable scene. I was really looking forward to this. I also agree that hiding the card in the socks could be logically explained but i also didn't think this far so i also got it accidently whilst investigating the socks. The second wind riddle felt a bit after artificially enlarging the playing time which i wouldn't have minded if i just would have got the idea what's it about the winds. With just passing them by luck i feel like i missed a riddle. Rotating de Singe according to his noises wasn't a straight logical riddle in my opinion.

    So it definately was enjoyble but it also cloudn't sustain a high level.

    I also was mapping the island until i realised that it's not connected in a physical logical way. Well, the Bard's Tale-Dungeon Master-genes do this for you. :O)
  • edited July 2009
    Excellent, wonderful, well-balanced and logical critique, Bas. Thank you for writing it. I think I can defend TTG on the "Unconnected Events-- de Singe's Laboratory" issue, though. It actually was pretty logical.

    After the third news-item you complete for Nipperkin, if you knock on the doctor's door a patient starts screaming about what de Singe is doing to his leg. After you come back from Deep Gut, Hemlock shows up complaining about how he can't get into Club 41 anymore because he now lacks feet. Therefore, Hemlock was the doctor's last patient and is pointing you to go check the swordfish house again. None of the other patients (nose guy and eye guy) show up again, which should at the very least flag Hemlock as an indication of something.

    *Shrugs.* Just my opinion on that one issue. Otherwise, I completely agree with and applaud the critique.
  • edited July 2009
    LuigiHann wrote: »
    I thought the tar puzzle made a lot of sense. If you click on the map before you've spilled the tar, the hand knocks Guybrush back in the same direction. And it makes sense that Guybrush can't simply stick the hand into the tar, because the demon hand seems to have control of his whole arm.

    I actually liked these "system of events" puzzles, like that one, the lab, and the clothesline puzzle, where it's a matter of seeing what does what, and figuring out the appropriate order. Much more interesting than straight inventory puzzles.

    You know, if you think about it, these are sort of like mini versions of the infamous Babel fish puzzle from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy text adventure. You press the button on the vending machine, which triggers a series of events that you have to individually manipulate in order to get the fish. The fish falls down the grate, so you have to cover it with the towel. But then the cleaning robot picks it up, so you have to leave Ford's satchel and the mail in front of its entry hatch to keep it occupied and so on and so forth. You keep experimenting and tweaking your environment until you've created the right circumstances to make the fish land in your ear.
  • edited July 2009
    Rubarack wrote: »
    Not really, the rule for items you didn't pick up before leaving the area is to prevent save traps. It's still bad design to rely on players instincts to click everything, but it's not really a big game design sin like save traps are.
    The basic logic against it is the same, though. If your defense of a flaw is "Well, Adventure game fans know to do this anyway", it can still be weak design.
  • edited July 2009
    Bas wrote: »
    The only time I can recall this happening in LotSN was with the pyrite parrot and the nasal cavity. I put him in there before having lured de Singe to the door, and I was kind of miffed that not only did nothing happen, but I had lost the parrot for no good reason too. The "see if you can open the door from the inside" thing was a bit of a cop out, really. The only thing the parrot ever did was lie around, so there was no reason to assume that it'd suddenly be able to work ancient doors. I think it would have been better if Guybrush had refused to put the parrot in there because he didn't want to lose it, until you had lured de Sing and it became clear that de Singe would open the door if he had reason to suspect Guybrush already being in there.
    The brilliant thought of placing the parrot in the nasal cavity did not occur to me until AFTER I had lured Marquis de Singe to the door. I knew that I had to fool him into believing that Guybrush was on the other side, and the parrot seemed like the perfect solution. I agree with what others have said about Guybrush not being able to place the parrot in the nasal cavity sooner. I, for one, might not have thought to try it a second time.
    Bas wrote: »
    Same goes for the Unbreakable Bottle Breaker: you knew the glass blower had it, and that he wasn't going to give it to you. With a bit of thinking you could also figure out that a cannon ball shot from a ship would be blown back to the island due to the winds. But how were you supposed to know that it'd land exactly on the glass unicorns, and that the glassblower would subsequently go inside while leaving the very bottle breaker he was so protective of outside? Was there really anyone who fired the cannon because they had a clue that it'd get them the bottle breaker?
    I, like others, fired the cannon BEFORE I knew about the bottle breaker. So, when it came time to retrieve that item, I knew to fire the cannon again. Of course, I did not know for certain whether or not he would actually leave the bottle breaker outside.
  • edited July 2009
    Bas wrote: »
    Was there really anyone who fired the cannon because they had a clue that it'd get them the bottle breaker?
    The cannon was utterly logical...and very similar to the cannon puzzle in monkey island 4? With the cactus.
    Obviously the wind will blow the cannon ball back, I initially assumed it would come back at Guybrush or the mast....causing me to have to fix the mast and delay my leaving the island. But regardless, as soon as I was captain I was going to fire that cannon....It hit the unicorns, so it was obviously a puzzle devise to be reused for the unbreakable bottle opener.
    Bas wrote: »
    You have to discover that the lab is now available as a location yourself, and there's no reason to think that it might be because it doesn't become available through any of your actions.
    Entry to the lab comes logically in the game sequence but more importantly, you know it must be open because ( as cageyjay has said), the patient is outside the courthouse.
    Hemlock has 2 wooden legs, one from kicking a rock and one from your bar brawl, both legs were amputated by the the marquee de singe. When the doc surgery is closed, a man calls out 'aaah where is my other leg'. Obviously it is time to check the doctors again to see if it is accessible.


    As for wanting more hints.....e.g. for the cannon or socks?
    I wanted to turn the hints off. Guybrush’s constant voicing of his thoughts, either told me what i already knew I had to figure out, or...gave me a hint that pretty much told me exactly what to do before I was able to contemplate the puzzle properly myself.
    When completing the idol puzzle, I recognised the faces of the wind gods but couldn’t immediately recall where from (although I remembered the eyes on the jail). The first idol I completed was the cheese wheel one (obviously the cheese fitted and, being on the eye row it seemed logical to roll the cheese along the jail). However Guybrush insisted on telling me that ‘he recognised the images’ and then that ‘maybe they were the same as the ones on the weather vane’ before I even had the chance recall that for myself. The weather vane is seen close up several times during game play and i would have preferred to have worked the puzzle out for myself. I felt that Guybrush’s hinting needed a ‘turn off’ option with replacement dialogue.
    I’m glad someone mentioned the Marquee’s noises when he’s the axel. I thought his noises might have something to do with ensuring the parts were aligned correctly, but at that stage I only had to turn one section and I had memorised the remaining wind god.

    I was surprised that the socks contained the lost membership card, I was expecting a little more challenge.
    taumel wrote: »
    b) Getting the captain replaced. This also was the most challenging puzzle for me because i've overseen than Guybrush could hang on the clothsline...
    This one frustrated me for ages, (in a good way)
    All the pieces were there. It took me a while to realise that for the captain to send me back along the rope, the bomb would be wound towards the ship.
    taumel wrote: »
    i was dissapointed not beeing able to enter the bar as a playable scene.
    So was I, and it was over very quickly. I wanted to see the brawl, or at least have my click of the mouse responsible for Guybrush’s hand inflicting such damage.

    I will add to this thread in due course, I feel that I have been too critical. I was actually thoroughly impressed with the first installment and really enjoyed the gameplay.
    I liked the new control of Guybrush, although I need to tweak the settings a little to smooth it.
    My main gripes are
    a. The constant hints from Guybrush
    b. It was so very...short
  • edited July 2009
    :D
    LuigiHann wrote: »
    I actually liked these "system of events" puzzles, like that one, the lab, and the clothesline puzzle, where it's a matter of seeing what does what, and figuring out the appropriate order. Much more interesting than straight inventory puzzles.

    Yeah - the thing is that they make you pay attention to what's happening onscreen, whereas your ever so typical adventure puzzle can become the most arbitrary and painted-by-number McGuyver conundrum quicker than you can shout Runaway. Or anything.

    I think Telltale are fairly clever in their puzzle design actually. This episode has some of the most interesting puzzles I've seen in recent times. And some of the funniest too.... SPOILER ahead if you still ain't finished: as simple as it is, (still took me a couple of seconds) but the second last puzzle involving the sounds of De Singe just made me crack up. Telltale you're a bloody wicked bunch! :D

    It's not about something as personal as perceived level of difficulty anyways - insult sword fighting wasn't difficult, yet it's something remembered for good reason. Honest, does anybody remember stuff like combining the duct tape with the hole in the shack door so that the cat would loose some of its fur so that... ok, ok. ;)
  • edited July 2009
    There was a reason to go to te doctors lab, when you try to use the bottle breaker, you cant because your hand wont let you, Guybrush says he should get his hand under control first (he says this when hints are off) so you would think to see the doctor.
  • edited July 2009
    Reward Intent: Yeah that has not been as much of an issue since Sierra went point and click.

    Speaking of Sierra. Their games always broke every single rule. I liked the story but dieing a thousand deaths was a pain. They would also have some kind of maze time waster in every game. It was an ocean or dungeon or desert. To play the game you needed to make a paper map... Then note what rooms you were killed in as soon as you entered. I want to bend up a pile of floppies just thinking about it. In king's quest 5 you could eat a pie you would later need for throwing. Or use any number of items in the wrong way. I don't want to be punished for trying things out by getting killed an hour later without knowing I did something wrong.

    In Rex Nebular you would die but then get an instant redo. You got the humor of the death scene without the frustration. It was possible to forget the Targeting Module from the first scene in the game. You need this item in the very last scene of the game.
  • edited July 2009
    It would have been nice to
    maybe have the double amputee walk by when he left the doctor's
    when the doctor was first available.

    Concerning the glass breaker...
    I fired the cannon as soon as I got the ship but it was before he had the glass breaker outside. Later when he had it out I did not expect him to just leave it outside after guarding it so well. I was sure I was on the right track by trying to distract him. It worked due to the bug but at the time my hand was still misbehaving.
  • edited July 2009
    This was a great post but...

    How was I supposed to know the card was in the socks?

    Winslow tells you, or as close to as he could without telling you outright.

    In a dialogue reply, he informs the player that he lost his club 41 card during a furious battle to claim the ship as his own, he was sure he'd lost it on the ship but he wasn't sure where.

    I immediately looked at the washing line and thought "Hmm! He lost it 'on the ship', so I wonder...", and my hunch was quickly confirmed.
  • edited July 2009
    Winslow did suggest that he had been Captain of the Narwhal for 2 years. And that he lost his membership while boarding the Narwhal. So the player might seek to board the ship to look for it there. So that puzzle could have been worded better. This reminds me of the easy difficulty settings on Monkey Island 2. All I did was click on a sock, which you can do before talking to Winslow and I was provided with the means to access club 41. But I suppose that is one part of the puzzle to solving the hidden treasure quest.

    I think the puzzles were well structured in this respect, where the player could chose which sub-quest to tackle first and the completion of the sub-quests all combine as a whole providing Guybrush with new objects and locations to help Guybrush on the main quest.

    As far as knowing that the canon smashed the glassblowers products, how could you know. But the player achieved access to the ship and how could you not want to use the cannon. In fact you can have the bombs and board the narwhal, without ever going back to meet the glassblower, who says free vowels when you first see him. So the player has made a note of this and is free to do so any time. If you didn't see a means to distract the glassblower you would simply follow another puzzle path and come back to this later.

    As far as placing the talking bird in the hole goes, why have the player waste time with luring the Doc back to the door with the door face as proof, only to discover Guybrush hasn't made it through and then putting the bird in and try it again. The player could have been planning ahead. This is the first thing I did when I took the face off the door before even working out how to get the doc over there. And Guybrush does joke about what he intended to happen if the doc hasn't come to check on the door yet. It is good that actions aren't disallowed when they don't ned to be.

    You actually have to go to the doctors in order to progress the game, this brought back memories of Guybrush being chained up in a dungeon and involved logic to solve. The only reason puzzle wise to do this is to get a grog shot in the hand to calm it down. You may have noticed that you can't actually use the Glass breaker on the unbreakable bottle until you put the evil hand to sleep.

    The cheese puzzle you could do any time and was just Guybrush acting silly. You can put the cheese wheel on the idol without imprinting it and Guybrush says it is a good fit. And without ripping the jail carvings off the wall, imprinting the cheese seemed like something to try.

    Also a keen eye would have spotted that the doctors plant pot looked like a nose and there were many references to this.

    Tales of Monkey Island follows many of the fundamentals of what makes a great adventure game. The puzzles were simple enough and provided a good introduction to the game. In Monkey Island tradition, the puzzles will only get more difficult, which I am looking forward to.
  • edited August 2009
    I noticed that Marquee de Singe made noises but decided to try a different approach. I solved the combination by simply examining the Weather Vane in my inventory and quickly sketching the correct Wind God. It matched, and I continued the game.

    I have to say that this is one of they only adventure games where I haven't been stumped to the point of frustration. I was also not tempted to look up any FAQ's either. Excellent job Tell Tale Games, you did a great job with Sam and Max series, and have done great justice to Guybrush Threepwood!

    One complaint...I think that Guybrush should have made an even bigger show of drama about the horrible ordeal of picking up Porcelain. Would have been great if Guybrush reaffirmed his phobia every time you used the doll or examined it.

    Were there any fun items in this Chapter that you could get nice remarks or effects with, like the Ventriloquism book in Curse of Monkey Island.

    Can't wait to see Murray in one of these chapters!

    I'm tempted to keep playing with the strange machine in the Voodoo shack, anyone know if there's an Easter egg tied to that?
  • edited August 2009
    Bas wrote: »
    The only time I can recall this happening in LotSN was with the pyrite parrot and the nasal cavity. I put him in there before having lured de Singe to the door, and I was kind of miffed that not only did nothing happen, but I had lost the parrot for no good reason too. The "see if you can open the door from the inside" thing was a bit of a cop out, really. The only thing the parrot ever did was lie around, so there was no reason to assume that it'd suddenly be able to work ancient doors. I think it would have been better if Guybrush had refused to put the parrot in there because he didn't want to lose it, until you had lured de Sing and it became clear that de Singe would open the door if he had reason to suspect Guybrush already being in there.

    That puzzle was logical to me immediately upon seeing the door. I thought "Hey since I can't get the door open without the thing de Singe has, I can use the parrot to make him think I'm in there." It'd be terrible design to not let me solve the puzzle before failing at it. This is Monkey Island, not Runaway.
  • edited August 2009
    Pale Man wrote: »
    That puzzle was logical to me immediately upon seeing the door. I thought "Hey since I can't get the door open without the thing de Singe has, I can use the parrot to make him think I'm in there." It'd be terrible design to not let me solve the puzzle before failing at it. This is Monkey Island, not Runaway.

    I think his point is that before he ever saw de Singe at the door (or do you see de Singe the first time you find the door? I can't remember) he threw the parrot in there which anyone would think that they had either wasted their time on the item or that they had done something wrong. I was letting my friend play the game on my computer after I had already completed it and he went through the same situation. I have no idea why people are thinking of using the parrot with the door before they realize what needs to happen, but hey to each his/her own, right? The bottom line is that the puzzle worked no matter when you used it so it doesn't really matter.
  • edited August 2009
    plrichard wrote: »
    I think his point is that before he ever saw de Singe at the door (or do you see de Singe the first time you find the door? I can't remember)

    de Singe shows up the first time you find it, and also opens it, if I remember correctly.
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