“Leaving some folks behind.”
Today I want to propose a different topic to discuss: what was your reasoning behind disagreeing with Luke? He basically says that if they want to leave Howe's Hardware, they should leave people behind, and that does sound wrong at face-value.
At the time, Rebecca was still pregnant, and Kenny was unconscious, so they couldn't just drag him through the herd and into the woods. Luke himself had been beaten up in the ribs by Carver pretty badly. Considering that he had previously stated that they should wait until everyone had recovered (or gone into labour) and nobody except Clementine (Determinant) agreed, what were your reasons to disagree with what Luke suggested?
Edit: Somebody pointed out that Alvin probably was on the group to be left behind (if you saved him on "A House Divided").
Comments
Not a big Luke fan, but he was most likely right. It looked practically impossible at the time for Kenny and Alvin (can't remember if he said this before or after Alvin had died though) to go with them at the time. The group had to at least consider the option of leaving some folks behind like he said. Had Kenny not woken up, how would they have escaped that night without leaving him behind?
My reason for disagreeing with him is because I didn't want to leave Kenny behind because him and Clementine were pretty close in my game. Just told luke that there was no way we were leaving him behind.
I didn't want to leave anyone behind. Keep in mind that Luke wanted to wait and it's probably because he didn't want to leave anyone behind.
I actually agreed with Luke (surprise, ha), but not about the "leaving people behind" part. Staying just a little longer was clearly the more logical idea had they just made sure not to get on Carver's nerves. Considering that Luke didn't condone killing Carver, I don't think he would have actually gone through with leaving people behind, especially since it meant leaving Rebecca and Alvin (which he wouldn't of wanted), and kind of meant himself too.
I saw it as a scare tactic to make sure that the group didn't make a rushed decision and end up getting more people killed (which it did).
What you pointed out is really interesting!
Given how incompetent and detested Carver and Troy were in the community, and how laughably easy it was to execute them, the group didn't even need to leave the place at all. All the group had to do was to assassinate them, and perhaps the remaining followers depending on their loyalty to Carver, and simply wait for the herd to go away.
Risking everyone's lives to leave the community through the walker herd was one of the worst ideas the group had, especially when they were leaving behind a community that had already lost their tyrannical leader and his most loyal follower, all while they were on their way breaking themselves out of the place. And that's not even getting into all those food and weapons supplies they're leaving behind as well, especially the baby formula for AJ who is about to be born.
That is an excellent point.
I was surprised how quickly Bonnie turned against Carver, that would have been more effective to turn them against one another than going through a herd
His opinion didn't make me angry, he was right. It was pretty much the only option on the table before Kenny had his 'tough bastard' moment. What made me angry was that I never thought that Luke out of everyone would suggest that. If the roles were reversed, Kenny may well have forced the issue, but I couldn't believe it of Luke. He got everyone into this situation in the first place and as soon as the going got tough, he just wanted out of there as soon as possible and as easily as possible.
I don't get Bonnie's character, I don't understand why she didn't turn against Carver any sooner, in 400 Days dlc she seems like a really sensible person but in season 2 she don't mind watching good people get executed by Carver and enslaving a bunch of people. The writers must have been very confused with her imo.
The reasons I disagree with Luke is because you leave no one behind. That's all there is too it, Kenny's family and even the others I have stuck with for the first half of the season...so yeah, we either all go or all stay.
Luke was tired, beaten, and desperate. Like most of the group at that point. I didn't agree with leaving people behind, but I wanted to leave asap. If Howes was currently overwhelmed by walkers, then I would've understood leaving regardless of who's next to you, but the night was calm compared to the day they had. Alvin (if alive) is supposed to be their friend, and while he's in the office being tortured, only Clem and Rebecca seem to be worried about him. That was surprising.
It might not be these exact words, but like Sarita said, "Kenny and I are only here, because of you people!" I never saw Clem as a member of Luke's group. They were just helping her get to Christa in Wellington, since that's where they were going, too. Then when they ran into Kenny's group at the lodge, I wanted to stay with Kenny and travel with him. So there was no way I was leaving him behind.
Worth remembering that Kenny tried to leave Lilly behind in episode 3 after she saved them from the bandits, so if you judge Luke for this, you should judge him for that.
He was speaking logically. He just didn't account for how much (my) Clementine loved Kenny.
Smarter than you look, mate
It was right to leave Lilly behind, she shot a member in front of the group, especially Clementine. Also, no point taking her with us, she is betraying you
He wanted to leave her before she did that. But to be fair, Lily had been pretty unstable already and they were being shot up by bandits.
The thing is though, is that it's implied that the herd was going to swarm Howe's no matter what. The plan of using the PA was to get the attention of all of them and to keep drawing more in, and to cause panic and confusion among the ranks.
Luke himself says it's going to hit Howe's, and you can see the herd manifesting along the tree-line during the episode. Clementine makes note of that and says they're in trouble. Even Carver expresses some doubt over whether the herd will just pass or not while he's talking on the PA system.
And if that herd numbers in the thousands like the one guard on the roof said, there's next to no chance that the place would really withstand it. Almost no building could withstand an upwards of two to three thousand dead bearing down on it from all directions. Bonnie mentions herds have come through before, Luke mentions it as well, but he also says that Carver's never dealt with one this big. Tavia and the guards seem worried that they might not be ready for this one.
All they need is a single opening and they'll start to flood straight in. They could easily knock down the expansion fences and enter through one of the side doors (they successfully do this in the Jane ending), they could break through the main entrance to the store, they could force through the doors next to the loading bay gates, they could do all kinds of stuff. If they're staying constant with the herd behavior as seen in the comics, it's not something that you simply wait out. If you hunker down and try to stay quiet and wait them out, then you better hope to high heaven they don't break down a door and get inside.
They could stay and hope Carver doesn't end up killing at least one of them before the herd inevitably hits, and probably end up getting killed in the chaos, or they can take their chances and leave while they have an opportunity. In all honesty, no matter which option they chose, there was a high chance that people were going to die no matter what. I mean, look what happened over the course of the first two days at camp Carver: two guys nearly beaten to death, a third guy beaten to slightly less shit than the other two, and one guy pushed off of a roof. Not to mention that outside of Rebecca, the rest of the group are most likely seen as expendable, if push ever came to shove. If I were in their position, I wouldn't be too optimistic about the next day going very well.
To be fairer, it was Lilly who took them of the hostage situation, as she was the one who shot the Save-Lots leader (the man with the grey ski mask).
You raise some good points, now that I understand that the herd was going to inevitably break into the community, and staying inside for some time is clearly not an option now.
However, my point still stands that leaving immediately wasn't the wisest move, and that's mainly due to what's left of Carver's men shooting at the walkers from the rooftop, which was what caused members of the Cabin Group to be killed due to either stray bullets hitting them by accident or being caught by the walkers due to the chaos. While Jane's plan to cover everyone in walker's guts was what made the escape possible, the snipers on the rooftop is what made a hole in her plan.
Even if the idea of waiting for the herd of walkers to pass on is impossible, there's still a chance where biding our time and escaping at the right moment would have saved more lives. Staying put for now would mean that the group will eventually hear the rest of Carver's men shooting the walkers on the rooftop, and that they would need to be dealt with if everyone hopes to sneak by the herd without being shot at first.
And I honestly don't believe that it would be suicidal to remain in the community with Carver around, since all of his actions towards the group was a result to their defiance or their transgressions in the past, and not due to unpredictable and barbaric impulsiveness:
Most, if not all, of Carver's actions towards the character was a result of what other characters had done to him. So as long as they do not act out of line, they we're generally left to work with as little fuss as possible. Mike was involved with a squabble with Kenny, and as far as we know, he was not punished for inadvertently causing a handful of walkers to break into a room, even if he wasn't the direct cause of it.
Yeah, as long as they all "behaved" and worked actively on the community, they could've been let out of the pen after a month or two, and all of them would be alive, instead of devoured, bitten, hypothermized or drowned in a lake/river.
The real question is, why didn't the group escape in the store's truck that was conveniently next to them? Mike was seen hot-wiring the Russians' truck when attempting to take it with Arvo and Bonnie. Does anyone know about, uh… this sort of thing?
Likewise, you raise good points as well. While it is true that many of Carver's actions are the result of things other characters did, it's also a question of what exactly it takes to set him off. If you play by his rules, you should be fine, but the real concern is whether or not he'll make the rules easy to play by in the first place. Carver used the berries as a pretense to kill Reggie; what's stopping him from doing something like that to another member of the group? Just wait for Kenny or someone to do something wrong after giving clear instructions, which he can then twist against them to justify a 'punishment' if he wanted to.
If there's one thing that is most definitely true about Carver, it's that he has an affinity towards violence. Even the old promo material for episode 3 described Carver as being a brutal leader with a propensity for violence. His 'punishments' are already a bit overboard. Smacking a girl to the ground for back-talking him, making Carlos smack Sarah for talking, beating Luke up in front of everyone in order to have them fess up about the plan, beating Kenny to near death over stealing the radio, beating and torturing Alvin for apparently killing his friend, breaking Carlos' fingers and beating him in order to get the group to surrender in the lodge, tossing Reggie off a roof as a punishment for helping the cabin group escape as well as supposed incompetence and weakness, and the list goes on. To him, even minor transgressions are enough to warrant some form of physical violence.
The entire group is basically on his shit-list by this point, so even if they tried to behave and play by the rules going forward, the slightest provocation could still be enough to warrant Carver getting violent again. If they just tried to steal a radio and plan to escape the day before, Carver is not going to be too lenient about anything that they do. In his eyes, he's already given them a chance to 'redeem' themselves, and they've thrown it right back in his face with the radio stunt.
I agree that Carver can be defined as violent and unstable, especially since there's no guarantee that you can keep his violent tendencies at bay for as long as you remain in his community, and continuing to stay with him would only ensure his plot to kill you in the future.
Which is all the more ironic given how easily he himself is taken out by the Cabin Group, and is brutally finished off by Kenny who was the last person he had given a horrific beating that had almost left him comatose. And his most loyal subject, Troy, also pays the price for following his ruler's footsteps, by attempting to ambush a group of people on their lonesome.
Would the bandit leader trust Lee for making the deal as he was agreeing?
Depending on the dialog you chose and how convincing you were, the bandit's last words can actually be "Drew! Take this motherfu--", implying that they were about to kill everyone.
I do know that.
I can't really disagree with Luke in that situation with what he said. He didn't want to leave that night, but thought the group should wait and think of another strategy when they were well and rested. He only agreed that they should leave sooner when pushed. So Luke's reasoning of 'leaving some folks behind' stems from the groups desperation to escape danger asap, which I could understand since they were scared and Carver probably would've injured or killed more of them. There was no guarantee all of them were ever going to be let back into the community, except for Carlos perhaps because of his doctor skills, and the children but that's it. I would actually disagree with Luke's reasoning to stay, because they may of gotten more beaten up or weaker, and it's even possible Carver might've ordered guards in place to watch them 24/7 so they couldn't try anything.
The fact is Kenny was unconscious by that point after being nearly beaten to death and he was looking in a pretty bad way. With the group pushing to escape there and then, and Luke probably thinking Kenny wasn't going to pull through, that's likely why he said it. And it's understandable, it would've been virtually impossible to get an unconscious man out of there with that type of escape plan and without being caught or killed. This is what happens when you have climbers go up Mount Everest for example and some get ill, injured or get beaten by the cold that it doesn't matter how many climbers are up there with them to help, if they can't walk on their own two feet they're done for; there's no way to get them down and they die, and if those other climbers stay there's a chance they'll die with them.
It doesn't how much humanity you have or your morals, sometimes humans have to make really tough calls and that was one of them. In one dialogue choice Luke mentions he doesn't even want to abandon Kenny, so it isn't a callous decision on his part.
I think that's why everyone disagreed with him; most did not realize that there wasn't a third choice — it's either stay in Howe's or leave with whoever else is fit to. Some might've been clouded because they were actually among the people who were being left, as Rebecca and Sarita, and Sarita was obviously grieving.
Carlos actually understood the point that Luke was trying to make, but after being questioned by the pregnant woman who he has stuck with for months (time is a rough guess), he decided not to speak up, and decided to say he was just thinking out loud. As horrible as this is going to sound, feeling sympathy for Rebecca might've cost the life of his daughter if they had eventually decided to stay.
I saw both sides of Luke's argument, for one part - he wants to leave Kenny, Alvin(determinantly) and possibly Rebecca and even Sarita behind. Rebecca might have stayed behind for Alvin or to have her baby and Sarita would most likely have stayed behind for Kenny. Luke has some responsibility for what happened to Kenny and Sarita, he was apart of the Cabin Group which led Carver's group to the Ski Lodge and he did end up running from the group(with arguably good reason), leaving Alvin, a member of his own group behind who was being tortured by Carver and possibly in extension Rebecca too who was pregnant at the time, would be a morally ill decision to make in my opinion, he's suggesting to leave people behind to suffer under Carver's leadership whilst everyone else escapes for a chance at a better life .
But I can understand why he'd want to leave some people behind, Kenny was unconscious and could've had brain damage, Sarita was emotional, crying and feeling distress over what happened to Kenny(she didn't want to leave Kenny either), Alvin was tortured and may have been thought to possibly have been dead at the time and Rebecca wouldn't want to leave him, plus she was pregnant meaning she'd require extra care and attention, aid for when she needed to give birth as well as people to help take care of her after birth as well as people to help care for AJ when he's born, in other words, some of the group members were a liability, arguably Luke was too due to significant damage done to his ribs, I could see the points he made but we have no idea what the outcome would've been if people were left behind so all we can do is speculate, Carlos and Sarah may have chosen to stay, but they could've chose to leave as well, remember the plan ended up killing Carlos and Sarita, determinantly Nick and by extension Rebecca(arguably), Sarah, Luke, Bonnie(determinantly), Kenny(determinantly) and Jane(determinantly), things might have been allot better if the group chose to stay at Carver's for just a bit longer.
Finally someone that gets me. I always though telltale over looked the fact that Clem's group is just as bad as Carver because just because they were so scared that they couldn't just gang up on Carver they led a herd to kill a whole community of innocent people that didn't even hurt Clem in any way. I hope TellTale have Clem reflect on that monument when she goes back to Howes.
@Chris_93 (Just to help clarify Bonnie's character in the best way I can)
I believe that Bonnie (in Episode 3) just didn't want to believe that Carver was an all-around shitty person, most likely thinking that he had at least some redeeming qualities like serving food and giving them shelter. She didn't see him as a jagged edged type of person, more of a person that had a lot of stress put onto him ("I justified not going by telling myself it's easier to try and change something that's broken than to start all over").
I think she realized that it wasn't a fixable problem and the more she tried to fix it or let it be, the more people got cut by the pieces. Which is why she ended up turning against him.
But yeah, turning the members one by one against Carver would have been much more fun and a little less dangerous than going into a herd while Carver's men shot at walkers. It would have been much more relieving to see that happen too.
I want her and Jane to come across every single one of the reanimated community members, and realize that they got them killed. Jane should know them, considering she had been on the pen for a while.
You know, this is really subtle, but interesting character development for Bonnie. During Episode 3, she thinks that helping someone come back from their dark psychological state (Carver) is easier than taking off with other people (cabin group and Nick's mom) and leaving the person in "need".
However, during Episode 5, she has evolved into thinking that it's the other way around, leaving Kenny and taking off with Mike and Arvo.
I was surprised myself that Episode 4 did not even touch up on the idea that everyone got so many innocent people killed in the community themselves as they were trying to escape, and no-one ever acknowledges that they've doomed so many people they didn't see or know to die a horrible death.
Bonnie, Mike, and Jane never mentions how their actions had gotten their former allies killed, possibly including the rest of the 400 Days characters who didn't even do anything wrong to the Cabin Group, and are likely dead now unless Telltale plans to make use of the 400 Days characters again at some point.
I guess it's kind of a parallel to when Bonnie was hooked on drugs and instead of being abandoned, she was helped by Dee and Leeland.
With Kenny, I think she realized that he was too far gone to be helped.
It is actually the reason I badly wish I could of helped Carver instead. The whole using a Herd to attack Howe's, I didn't want that... I wanted to avoid it.. even if it meant betraying the group. There is a real possibility such an option could of been put into the game, with the herd still attacking but not because of your group. I imagined it and realized it was very possible with only really changing part of chapter 3 a little bit.
Imagine if Clem told Carver about their plan when she went after the Radio? He was in his office, he had a skylight... they could of set a trap that would of lead to Luke's capture, and Kenny still getting beat up, but with Clem secretly working for Carver... but say the Herd still attacked but the following morning instead without your group being involved.. then the same chain of events will start and player would of had an option to feel like their choices mattered when no longer having any guilt of what happened to the good people of Howe's hardware. Just get to feel guilty knowing you aided to Kenny getting his eye bashed in, it would of made that "Cleaning" Kenny's eye scene a bit more personal later on as well.
I honestly wanted to help Carver. I viewed the situation with the cabin group as nothing more than how Native Americans captured Hostages and used them as Laborers. Those laborers after proving themselves worthy and loyal would eventually join the tribe as equals. In practice that is a very noble way of going about recruitment as well, as you never know what new people to the group will be a threat or not. That being said Carver's violent tendencies were scary, but personally... I hated most of the Cabin group. Sarah, Pete and Luke were about the only ones I cared about, the rest could of died if all i cared. Tragically Sarah may of not lasted long at Carvers but then again Carver seemed to care more about her growing up than her own Father who seemed to baby her for too long into her life.
In turn, if the herd didn't naturally show up at Howe's, if the Herd moved on, I could see most of the cabin group surviving for Months at Howe's if not indefinitely. A cruel option, but a far more logical survival scenario then chasing after a mcguffin.
Agreed, I think they should've stayed at least for a week or two and even convince some of the Howe's residences to turn on Carver, it would definitely have been possible and a good way to use the 400 Days characters. The only thing is that Luke, Rebecca and Kenny all wanted to leave the most - Kenny was starting trouble already and Rebecca had a negative relationship with Carver, AJ could've been stolen from her, so I understand why she'd want to leave, as for Luke, he just doesn't agree with Carver which is the reason the Cabin Group left in the first place, I felt that they could've taken over Howe's rather than needing to escape, getting some of their members killed along with bringing down an entire community of survivors with them. Not only was the plan illogical, it was also pretty irrational.
And the plan was dangerous, as eventually seen when about half the group ends up dead within a few days following. Being the game can "end" at Howe's a scenario of taking it over seems logical. But it would of strayed heavily from Episode 4 and 5 and likely require a heck of a lot more work to pull off.
Call me a bit weird, but like Bonnie, I had some weird hope Carver would turn out all right. I did agree with everything he told Clem in the office.. I mean seriously, they locked a poor wounded little girl in a shed on a rainy night.... out of fear, they were pretty pathetic people. They could of at least tied her to a chair in the house where it was warm..... and no walkers.... then later relied on that little girl as if she was some kind of super hero.... that group needed help... far more help than what Clem could provide.
I didn't not even mind much when he threw Reggie off the roof... he couldn't even supervise two girls in a tiny green house... and I'd hope.. we all know that is why Carver ended up so mad at him.. it was one thing being crippled, but being that weak in character... he needed to be more than just a "Drone worker bee." Having Sarah and Clem up there, green recruits likely with no gardening experience... and then Carver coming to personally check on them... only then Reggie realizing the girls didn't do their job, proving he never once checked on them despite he was in charge... ya Carver had reason to be angry, though throwing Reggie off the roof was extreme, but I do understand why he was angry.
Luke says he was "playing devil's advacit" for a reason. Facing the reality of the situation, leaving Kenny, Sarita, and Alvin would be the only chance for the rest of the group to make it. That and Bonnie would only help at that moment due to multiple reasons. Realizing that Carver was losing it and the horde of zombies coming would destroy the community built/perfect time to leave.
I was thinking that we could sneak the injured two through the opposite end of where the horde isnt, but clearly that wouldn't have worked in hindsight.
Right! That's how the help cycle started.
I'm pretty pissed that they both died so early on. It would've been interesting to have them come to Howe's, along with Bonnie. Nobody ever gives them credit for keeping Bonnie alive.